Concealed-undead Clerics of Hel

[ZhonLord]

As I was re-skimming the comic looking for items for the trivia thread, I was rereading the part where Hel complained about how her undead clerics always get killed off before they can gain enough strength to attend the Godsmoot. And it reminded me of another undead cleric of a death god, who managed to keep his identity secret from the majority of the world.

Malack has been "alive" for centuries, right? And the gods are at least aware of the activities of other clerics, in some cases paying direct attention to others. So why didn't Hel have one of her priests follow Malack's example and hide their undead + evil nature behind a facade of neutrality and "I never said I was alive"?

For someone as manipulative as Hel who has layers of backup plans going, it seems like she should have been able to have had a cleric replicate Malack's success multiple times over by now.

[hroþila]

I think it's quite likely that at least some of her clerics tried. The thing is, that scheme is a lot easier to pull off when you're already a high-level character ruling an entire country from the shadows (it's a lot easier to deal with the consequences of being found out by someone, too)

[ZhonLord]

I think it's quite likely that at least some of her clerics tried. The thing is, that scheme is a lot easier to pull off when you're already a high-level character ruling an entire country from the shadows (it's a lot easier to deal with the consequences of being found out by someone, too)

Malack was already a vampire cleric when he and Tarquin adventured together back in the day. How did Malack conceal himself long enough for the empire plan to get implemented in the first place?

[brian 333]

Malack began as a barbarian. Not necessarily the class, but the background. He was always an outsider with strange ways. It was easier for him to conceal his vampire template because every civilized person he met expected him to be somewhat odd.

It is far different from a cleric in an organized religion suddenly acting strangely or a wight or ghast with spellcasting ability showing up and earning exp from villagers. Those things get noticed.

[InvisibleBison]

Do we know that Malack was high enough level to cast summon proxy before he was killed?

[brian 333]

Do we know that Malack was high enough level to cast summon proxy before he was killed?

We don't. We know he was a barbarian shaman, but his exact class and level combination is speculative at best.

[Peelee]

Do we know that Malack was high enough level to cast summon proxy before he was killed?

What level is that?

[Fyraltari]

Malack also had the advantage of the pre-existing Nergalian Church* as something of a network support he could lean on rather than having to build the entire church himself from the ground up. It's easier for an undead to hide when they're part of a large group of death worshippers who include many normal mortals than for an undead to hide while leading a death-worshipping church whose every priest is undead.

*And probably the Ereshkigalian one too, to a lesser degree.

[Ionathus]

Probably several factors at play here.

Hel seems to be hated far worse than the gods of death/undeath in other pantheons. Part of this seems to be that she has no living worshippers b/c no living clerics, but also because she's in charge of the only Evil afterlife that Good and Neutral mortals can get sent to against their will. That has likely damaged her reputation severely, at least among dwarves. It's a special, unjust degree of evil, and so her undead clerics are more likely to be rooted out and destroyed out of spite.

That's all purely speculation and headcanon, of course, extrapolated from the facts that we actually know.

Another point to consider: it's entirely possible that she does have a couple of wight clerics lurking in the dark corners of the Northern Continent, slowly building their power. The problem there would be that they're slowly building their power, and the more powerful they become, the more likely they are to be crushed as the end-bosses of a dungeon like Greg said. So it's entirely believable that there are clerics of Hel out there in hiding (there's at least one vampire dwarf cleric still kicking, after all), but they just ain't powerful enough to cast summon proxy.

[Bacon Elemental]

Malack also had the advantage of a long history working in an extremely competent Evil adventuring party and then retiring into a succession of positions of immense societal power in terms of "surviving being an undead cleric". We don't know what level they were to start, but they seem like a very long-term deal to me.

[DirePorcupine]

What level is that?

Pretty sure that's a homebrewed spell Giant thought up just for the comic. Dunno the level.

[Peelee]

Pretty sure that's a homebrewed spell Giant thought up just for the comic. Dunno the level.

That was kind of my point. Although it doesn't even seem like it needs to be cast, per se - the representatives from the West and South seem to have been blindsided by it and not casting it themselves.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That was kind of my point. Although it doesn't even seem like it needs to be cast, per se - the representatives from the West and South seem to have been blindsided by it and not casting it themselves.

I feel like that is not Summon Proxy but a "Communicate Pantheon Results" cast from the other end on the designated representatives.

GW

[Peelee]

I feel like that is not Summon Proxy but a "Communicate Pantheon Results" cast from the other end on the designated representatives.

GW

I dunno, though. The clerics didn't vote, and the godly essence is being transmuted between all the high priests and the reps at the Northern temple. Seems like the gods could just easily zot into the reps and let their wishes be known rather than creating a whole new spell just for that one specific purpose when they already have a spell just for that one specific purpose.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I dunno, though. The clerics didn't vote, and the godly essence is being transmuted between all the high priests and the reps at the Northern temple. Seems like the gods could just easily zot into the reps and let their wishes be known rather than creating a whole new spell just for that one specific purpose when they already have a spell just for that one specific purpose.

But it is not the same purpose. Summon Proxy exists so that gods of a Pantheon can have a talk amongst themselves in a neutral setting. The other one is intended so a Pantheon can communicate their conclusion to the other Pantheons without any of the gods having to be anywhere near the other Pantheon, thus preventing even the chance of a Snarl (and possibly without having a god speak for all the others).

GW

[Jasdoif]

But it is not the same purpose. Summon Proxy exists so that gods of a Pantheon can have a talk amongst themselves in a neutral setting. The other one is intended so a Pantheon can communicate their conclusion to the other Pantheons without any of the gods having to be anywhere near the other Pantheon, thus preventing even the chance of a Snarl (and possibly without having a god speak for all the others).

Yeah; I figure summon proxy is like a video addon to the Godsmoot telecommuting thing, letting deities emote more effectively at each other (and authenticate their clerics as theirs) without actually leaving their demense.

[Peelee]

But it is not the same purpose. Summon Proxy exists so that gods of a Pantheon can have a talk amongst themselves in a neutral setting. The other one is intended so a Pantheon can communicate their conclusion to the other Pantheons without any of the gods having to be anywhere near the other Pantheon, thus preventing even the chance of a Snarl (and possibly without having a god speak for all the others).

GW

Both (assuming two discrete spells) allow the gods to speak to the other gods remotely, so long as the divine casters are in close proximity. The representatives from the other pantheons go to close proximity to the northern pantheon high priests, and bam, exact same effect/purpose. That the southern and western pantheons don't say anything except the results of their vote is neither here nor there.

Summon Proxy alone could accomplish this.

[Fyraltari]

I suppose the simplest explanation would be that Summon Proxy allows for either channeling your deity's voice and/or image yourself or making a Cleric of the same god as yourself who you are familiar with do it no matter the distance (similar to Sending rules) and that the High Priests of Veldrina's goddess and of whichever of the Twelve the other guy follows cast it twice, once for their Pantheon's vote and once to communicate it to the Northerners.

Edit: if this is true, then Veldrina and the other guy don't have to cast anything (hence their surprise) and their levels don't matter.

[Turin_19]

I suppose the simplest explanation would be that Summon Proxy allows for either channeling your deity's voice and/or image yourself or making a Cleric of the same god as yourself who you are familiar with do it no matter the distance (similar to Sending rules) and that the High Priests of Veldrina's goddess and of whichever of the Twelve the other guy follows cast it twice, once for their Pantheon's vote and once to communicate it to the Northerners.

Edit: if this is true, then Veldrina and the other guy don't have to cast anything (hence their surprise) and their levels don't matter.

Considering that the Gods cannot influence this world directly also, it looks like they made a specific whole in their non-involvement clauses that are only specific to the Godsmoot. Summon Proxy probably only works on the holy grounds when the event is happening.

[Mike Havran]

Hel seems to be hated far worse than the gods of death/undeath in other pantheons. Part of this seems to be that she has no living worshippers b/c no living clerics, but also because she's in charge of the only Evil afterlife that Good and Neutral mortals can get sent to against their will. That has likely damaged her reputation severely, at least among dwarves. It's a special, unjust degree of evil, and so her undead clerics are more likely to be rooted out and destroyed out of spite.

Also, I would not put it past Loki that he actively tries to encourage his evil clergy to pursuit such clerics (hence the "icky things") just so he will get a bigger portion of Evil juice.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Both (assuming two discrete spells) allow the gods to speak to the other gods remotely, so long as the divine casters are in close proximity. The representatives from the other pantheons go to close proximity to the northern pantheon high priests, and bam, exact same effect/purpose. That the southern and western pantheons don't say anything except the results of their vote is neither here nor there.

Summon Proxy alone could accomplish this.

On the contrary. The purpose is to NOT have the gods in close proximity to the other pantheons. The collective conclusion of their respective moots is communicated through the representatives, but the individual gods of those representatives did not make an appearance. Case in point, we did not hear the result of the vote as interpreted by Veldrina's really minor goddess - if her pantheon is any like the Northern one, she might not even have got a vote. We heard from the pantheon as whole. No proxies were summoned.

GW

[Peelee]

On the contrary. The purpose is to NOT have the gods in close proximity to the other pantheons.

And they aren't. Not even in the same pantheon are they in close proximity. Their divine casters are in close proximity, in both events. Which is not a problem at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And they aren't. Not even in the same pantheon are they in close proximity. Their divine casters are in close proximity, in both events.

"Directly talking to one another" is close proximity, when your disagreement could escalate into feuds that can cause Snarls. The whole system is clearly designed to minimize all contact, including verbal.

GW

[Peelee]

"Directly talking to one another" is close proximity, when your disagreement could escalate into feuds that can cause Snarls. The whole system is clearly designed to minimize all contact, including verbal.

GW

And it does! The pantheons use the spell to discuss amongst themselves, and then again to relay the consensus and only the consensus to the others.

Again, there's no issue at all with having the same spell work for both instances. It has the exact same functionality, allowed the gods to remotely talk to each other without being in close proximity, by way of their divine casters being in close physical proximity and acting as conduits..

[Jasdoif]

Again, there's no issue at all with having the same spell work for both instances. It has the exact same functionality, allowed the gods to remotely talk to each other without being in close proximity, by way of their divine casters being in close physical proximity and acting as conduits..

So...are you positing that summon proxy is one of those spells with multiple functions; and HPoH is casting it with himself as the target for one function, and someone outside the Godsmoot is casting it with Veldrina as the target for another?

[Peelee]

So...are you positing that summon proxy is one of those spells with multiple functions; and HPoH is casting it with himself as the target for one function, and someone outside the Godsmoot is casting it with Veldrina as the target for another?

Not even multiple functions, no. The same function - allows gods to talk to each other without needing to be in close proximity. It turns them into a speakerphone, to analogize. Speakerphone doesn't work differently if you pop it into a different office, it's still performing the exact same function, the only difference is that now the yellow speakerphone can hear what the blue and red speakerphones are saying since you put the blue and red models in the office with the yellow model.

[Jasdoif]

Not even multiple functions, no. The same function - allows gods to talk to each other without needing to be in close proximity. It turns them into a speakerphone, to analogize. Speakerphone doesn't work differently if you pop it into a different office, it's still performing the exact same function, the only difference is that now the yellow speakerphone can hear what the blue and red speakerphones are saying since you put the blue and red models in the office with the yellow model.

So are you saying Veldrina did cast summon proxy, that HPoH didn't cast summon proxy, or that casting summon proxy was never strictly necessary in the first place?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not even multiple functions, no. The same function - allows gods to talk to each other without needing to be in close proximity. It turns them into a speakerphone, to analogize. Speakerphone doesn't work differently if you pop it into a different office, it's still performing the exact same function, the only difference is that now the yellow speakerphone can hear what the blue and red speakerphones are saying since you put the blue and red models in the office with the yellow model.

And yet your hypothesis requires the spell to be cast by people surprised by it being casted, and for no proxies to be summoned in some cases but yes in others. My alternative, that there are two spells with two different effects, casters and purposes, honestly seems far more parsimonious.

GW

[Peelee]

So are you saying Veldrina did cast summon proxy, that HPoH didn't cast summon proxy, or that casting summon proxy was never strictly necessary in the first place?

Casting is not strictly necessary but since it can be cast on people (either by the high priests or the gods, take your pick), but it's probably a nicety or something akin to that.

And yet your hypothesis requires the spell to be cast by people surprised by it being casted, and for no proxies to be summoned in some cases but yes in others. My alternative, that there are two spells with two different effects, casters and purposes, honestly seems far more parsimonious.

GW

Two spells with the same effects, casters, and purposes. The effect of "the gods can talk to each other remotely" and "the gods can talk to each other remotely" probably don't need separate spells, is what I'm saying.

[Jasdoif]

Casting is not strictly necessary but since it can be cast on people (either by the high priests or the gods, take your pick), but it's probably a nicety or something akin to that.

Two spells with the same effects, casters, and purposes. The effect of "the gods can talk to each other remotely" and "the gods can talk to each other remotely" probably don't need separate spells, is what I'm saying.

Ah, so you are saying HPoH didn't cast summon proxy.

Or, maybe, that summon proxy does indeed have multiple functions; among them the option of giving the target the choice to accept, which the target does through actions that "happen" to look like casting summon proxy themselves...and another option being the visual manifestation, which is dependent on a cost to the caster to prevent it from being employed every time.