For Fun: projects for the next world AKA "Let's farm a new quiddity!"

[brian 333]

I think what you may be doing here is assuming motives not in evidence. The Good gods, according to your theory, intentionally abuse the goblins because they profit from doing so. If that is the case, it is reprehensible and all of the rest of your arguments follow logically.

But that is not what happened.

Fenris created the goblins and tried to zerg-rush everyone else. When that failed he abandoned the goblins. By that time, the goblins had established themselves as everyone's enemies! Except in at least one, possibly more, case they remained hostile to everyone.

They, in fact, tried to gain concessions of land and resources by building the biggest army ever assembled and threatened to use it if they were not given what they wanted. And everyone was supposed to believe them when they said, "But we won't use this army if you give us what we want "

What assurances did they offer that there wouldn't be further demands and even more, while the goblins grew to numbers so great the region couldn't sustain them and war happened anyway?

So, the gods did not assume responsibility for cleaning up the mess another god made. Further, they allowed their minions to prevent that mess from spreading. As opposed to allowing the beings they did create to be overwhelmed by the mess.

Your presumption falls apart in the face of the facts. What, exactly, were the Good gods supposed to do? Let their own creations be wiped out to make up for Fenris' mistake?

You assume the Good gods can do a thing, and therefore should do it because it is the right thing to do. But you refuse to think through the simplest consequences of doing that. Sometimes what seems like justice turns out to be worse than what there was before.

[Laurentio III]

Fenris does it every single fantasy world they make.
At one point, if they wanted to something they had a plethora of opportunities.
I proposed a few things they could do to make the life of goblinoids less painful.
If there is nothing more, I assume we are done.

[brian 333]

Fenris does it every single fantasy world they make.
At one point, if they wanted to something they had a plethora of opportunities.
I proposed a few things they could do to make the life of goblinoids less painful.
If there is nothing more, I assume we are done.

Yes, you said what they could have done, handwaved away any potential negative consequences, and asserted that it should have been done.

What you have failed to show is, why they should have been the ones to do it, at the expense of their chosen races, when the entity responsible for the goblin's situation gets a free pass.

So, yeah, if we're ignoring the arguments we don't like, I guess we're done.

[Reboot]

Redcloak tells a very different tale in Start of Darkness, learned by the Dark One himself, and indirectly confirmed by other gods.
You can have a different take, but goblinoids have been created as cannonfood on purpose. It's canon in OotSverse, unless there is a masquerade in progress held by every god in existance.

Sorry I can't link a source, it's in Start of Darkness, page 37.
I

Redcloak's version is clearly wrong, from what we know now, in several respects. For one thing, it assumes the world was created, a bunch of Lv 1 clerics (and other classes) were created, then SOME TIME LATER they realised their clerics couldn't level up and created the goblins & other "monster" races. And that's before you consider that this isn't World 2, it's World 2 BILLION and all the bugs like that have been long sorted out.

Unless you assume that everything Thor said (including the bits Loki & Hel essentially backed up) is a straight-up lie and TDO knows all about this stuff.

[Laurentio III]

Yes, you said what they could have done, handwaved away any potential negative consequences, and asserted that it should have been done.

I'm not handwaving anything. Actually, I didn't even discussed in details because there would be a lot of details and it would be a wall of text.
My point is not "they have to do this", but "To say, they could have done this". My impression is that they didn't even try.
I agreed on everything else.

Brian 333. I know this is unexpected on the internet, but I'm not going to try to "win" an argument. The only point I'm firm in, is that "the good gods are not acting good".

Fenris is to blame? I agreed, even if I don't think it's important. Fenris is evil, and possibly not smart, and for sure uncaring. While it's not right, when someone is irresponsable, others have to pick the up his mess and clean.

Redcloak is wrong? I agreed, the Dark One is telling his version and it's prejudiced. Honestly? I understand his view. In his armored pants, I'd feel the same. Still wrong, sure.

The good gods should leave the monsters brakeless? I never answered to this. So... yes, for it would probably never matter in the long play. Goblinoids have no high level leader that can match the high level adventurers of othr race. Their obstacles are the age (they die sooner), infights (always evil races means less cooperation) and racism (goblinoids are less likely to receive assistance from high level characters of other races like, to say one, spell exchange).
In all the history of goblinkind there are two exceptional individuals: Redcloak, who is a cheat as his mantle protects him from old age, and the Dark One himself, who is apparently a paragon-template or similar. Right-Eye, who could one-shot treants, was clearly strong but not at their level.
Now, the new goblin city is militarly strong, but as who played D&D knows, a group of adventurers could reconquer it as a quest in a matter of days. Scry-and-die applies to armies, too. We have seen vampire Durkon enter the most protected dwarven stronghold almost effortlessly. He failed only because he fought another party of adventurers (and his inner self).

Short version (see, that is the reason I don't like long explaining) the fall of Azure City is an exceptional event lead by two unique villains, not something any army of goblinoids could have obtained otherwise. Without Xykon and Redcloak, they would have stayed in their fortified city waiting for some random party to rain dead from the sky for laughs.
So: should Thor be wary of the goblinoid because they could wipe other races? I think it's highly unlikely.

Unless you assume that everything Thor said (including the bits Loki & Hel essentially backed up) is a straight-up lie and TDO knows all about this stuff.

No, it's clear that the Dark One is looking from a peculiar angle. Mind, there are reasons for this. Gods can confortably think of mortals as statistics - Thor is the only one that ever expressed any sentiment toward his followers, and it was in passing - while the Dark One, born mortal and in his godly infancy, has a more mundane point of view.

[The MunchKING]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

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And what everyone is overlooking is the other thing it took to get a new God. Blood. A continent's worth of death and slaughter consecrated in the Unholy Name of the Dark One. If the Gods aren't willing to risk Genocide on several sentient species, they aren't playing to get a new quiddity.

[Laurentio III]

And what everyone is overlooking is the other thing it took to get a new God. Blood. A continent's worth of death and slaughter consecrated in the Unholy Name of the Dark One. If the Gods aren't willing to risk Genocide on several sentient species, they aren't playing to get a new quiddity.

I'd assume that "soul" is more important than blood, here. {scrubbed}

[ZhonLord]

And what everyone is overlooking is the other thing it took to get a new God. Blood. A continent's worth of death and slaughter consecrated in the Unholy Name of the Dark One. If the Gods aren't willing to risk Genocide on several sentient species, they aren't playing to get a new quiddity.

Well, speaking as a Neutral god, if we go with Operation "zerg-like good guys as underdogs in a world of evil", then the bloody battle of conquest would instead become a rise to glory and a naturally occurring transition into a world of good just people as the majority, all with a shining new-color pantheon to light their way, a paragon of virtue and hope whom the gods can then negotiate with to finally make 4-color Gates.

[brian 333]

Emergent properties are so hard to predict and control. We've all seen what happens when robots become self aware. Do we really want to create more gods?

[ZhonLord]

Emergent properties are so hard to predict and control. We've all seen what happens when robots become self aware. Do we really want to create more gods?

If we want a new quiddity so we can seal the snarl permanently, after the Dark One starves between creations, yes.

[brian 333]

If we want a new quiddity so we can seal the snarl permanently, after the Dark One starves between creations, yes.

That's what they said right before Skynet went online...

[ZhonLord]

That's what they said right before Skynet went online...

I'm aware, but even so the gods would be creating a new equal rather than something that could surpass them. Plus with the way belief has to be accumulated, a new god would be very weak by comparison. It would be easy to snuff out a newcomer as Thor tried to do to the Dark One, and no matter how long they exist they can't obtain enough power to be a personal threat when the other gods have multiple worlds' worth of energy saved up. It would take an "entire species genocide" like what Hel tried, to get enough power.

Therefore a skynet scenario is impossible as far as the gods are concerned. The precautions against it are already inherent to their situation.

[brian 333]

I'm aware, but even so the gods would be creating a new equal rather than something that could surpass them. Plus with the way belief has to be accumulated, a new god would be very weak by comparison. It would be easy to snuff out a newcomer as Thor tried to do to the Dark One, and no matter how long they exist they can't obtain enough power to be a personal threat when the other gods have multiple worlds' worth of energy saved up. It would take an "entire species genocide" like what Hel tried, to get enough power.

Therefore a skynet scenario is impossible as far as the gods are concerned. The precautions against it are already inherent to their situation.

And yet, TDO is proving this all wrong. His goblins will now grow and expand into every other species territory, successfully accomplishing the Zerg rush abandoned by Fenris. The only hope the gods have is to end the world now!

[The MunchKING]

I'd assume that "soul" is more important than blood, here. {scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I was being dramatic, but yes, the point is you need a LOT of souls, in a relatively short time, all devoted to the new god-to-be. (Thus not going to other people)

Well, speaking as a Neutral god, if we go with Operation "zerg-like good guys as underdogs in a world of evil", then the bloody battle of conquest would instead become a rise to glory and a naturally occurring transition into a world of good just people as the majority, all with a shining new-color pantheon to light their way, a paragon of virtue and hope whom the gods can then negotiate with to finally make 4-color Gates.

A) Only if that works...

B) Even if you got a new God out of it, they won't convert the world to Good, any more than the Dark One has managed to convert Stickworld to Evil. There are more "others" than there are Zerg-race, and assuming roughly equal technology, they can band together in the face of opposition.

C) They need a unifying force behind one guy to dump all the souls on. Regular Zerg-rush won't work if you don't have a leader to take all those souls and be the new god. And attempts to boost the likelihood of a new leader, would also risk them fragmenting into lots of tribes with their own leaders and not unifying enough to slaughter enough in the name of one guy to make it work.

It would be easy to snuff out a newcomer as Thor tried to do to the Dark One, and no matter how long they exist they can't obtain enough power to be a personal threat when the other gods have multiple worlds' worth of energy saved up.

They don't, is the problem. Or at least not in any sense that can be utilized against an external threat. Thor said they burn off a lot of it waiting for the Snarl to calm down, and Rich said the only time they could have stopped the Dark One was when he was new and had used up all his "soul energy". Once he started getting on a proper Godly Diet, he was too powerful for them to murder.

[Laurentio III]

C) They need a unifying force behind one guy to dump all the souls on. Regular Zerg-rush won't work if you don't have a leader to take all those souls and be the new god. And attempts to boost the likelihood of a new leader, would also risk them fragmenting into lots of tribes with their own leaders and not unifying enough to slaughter enough in the name of one guy to make it work.

This is mayor point. If Redcloak tales is corrrect, the Dark One was some kind of mutant. Having superpowers AND a very distinctive look is a big factor in raising a blood religion.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for review

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Please remember that mythological religions are still real-world religions and count under the blanket religious discussion rules.

[ZhonLord]

This is mayor point. If Redcloak tales is corrrect, the Dark One was some kind of mutant. Having superpowers AND a very distinctive look is a big factor in raising a blood religion.

Hmm....bis there potentially a way to encourage that without it being treated as an endorsement, which also doesn't create a group of such who then compete with each other?

[Laurentio III]

Hmm....bis there potentially a way to encourage that without it being treated as an endorsement, which also doesn't create a group of such who then compete with each other?

Parsed time.
A "Dark One Special" every ten-fifty years, based on race's max age. By the time the new one arise, the previous is dead, or old and failed, or successed.
You can have more than one if they are very unlikely to ever ally. At best they fight each the other, and it's desiderable.

[ZhonLord]

Parsed time.
A "Dark One Special" every ten-fifty years, based on race's max age. By the time the new one arise, the previous is dead, or old and failed, or successed.
You can have more than one if they are very unlikely to ever ally. At best they fight each the other, and it's desiderable.

Alright, so we have:
1. Zerg rush tactics that generate accelerated amounts of Belief/Worship during life and Dedications upon death, plus many extra Souls in the afterlife.

2. Underdog good guys in a continent dominated by evil beings (not the whole world, as we've discussed the Good and Neutral pantheons taking serious issue with that) so that they have the determination and will to stand on their own without depending on the other pantheons but are unlikely to make a "nuke the world" god.

3. A regularly occurring mutation that happens once every 1-2 generations, creating a "chosen one" of considerable power and charisma so that the worshippers have someone to rally their belief around and potentially ascend to godhood.

4. Readiness to kill the newly formed god and try again if they DO turn out to be evil aligned or otherwise cruel or unstable, before they can recharge from what was expended during their ascension. If we can get it to happen twice, we can get 3 times.

Which brings us to the problem of the interim period before ascension.

Problem 1) the Dark One took a couple thousand years in this world to happen. In the meantime, Snarl Rifts nearly destroyed the world right before the miracle occurred. The Gates developed by Dorukan were an excellent delaying tactic, but this was presumably the first time such were developed. How do we, as the Gods, encourage a new round of such Gates in the next world so that we don't risk having to terminate the experiment early?

Problem 2) presumably the previous Zerg attempts by Fenris failed due to a variety of factors. How do we ensure these new attempts survive the "maturation period" in and of themselves, without our intervention causing a change in their focus of worship so that a new god joins an existing pantheon instead of tapping into new quiddity? Endorsement must be avoided if this is to succeed.

Problem 3) do we, or do we not, include self awareness in the next world? There's a lot to be said for its value, based on what's occurred in stick world, but there's also the potential drawback of recognizing oneself as soul fodder.

[Reboot]

Problem 1) the Dark One took a couple thousand years in this world to happen. In the meantime, Snarl Rifts nearly destroyed the world right before the miracle occurred. The Gates developed by Dorukan were an excellent delaying tactic, but this was presumably the first time such were developed. How do we, as the Gods, encourage a new round of such Gates in the next world so that we don't risk having to terminate the experiment early?

Stick the Create Gate spell on the standard cleric spell list next time around, and do something similar for arcane casters (maybe don't even have wizards, just something similar to clerics in terms of spell acquisiton, but using arcane magic)

[The MunchKING]

Stick the Create Gate spell on the standard cleric spell list next time around, and do something similar for arcane casters (maybe don't even have wizards, just something similar to clerics in terms of spell acquisiton, but using arcane magic)

I don't even think the Gods knew about Gates or how to make them, according to a wizened old man dispensing valuable plot points. Thier ideas for fixing the Rifts needed the reality strands that were currently being used to make the world.

[Laurentio III]

I don't even think the Gods knew about Gates or how to make them, according to a wizened old man dispensing valuable plot points. Thier ideas for fixing the Rifts needed the reality strands that were currently being used to make the world.

We don't even know if the gods value the gates. They kept durable world up to millennias, and they understand the possibility of patching a rift without unmaking the world. The problem is that the patches would be weak and, eventually, the Snarl wins.
The gate lasted what? Decades? Not even a small "tick tock" on gods' clocks. Nothing to write home for.
Actually, gates seems to be a problem to them, because those allow to move a rift.

[hamishspence]

Isn't the only way to properly patch a rift, by using 4 colors? Thor seems to think so:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html

[Laurentio III]

Isn't the only way to properly patch a rift, by using 4 colors? Thor seems to think so:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html

Yes it is. As I said, it would be weak and not much effective.

But my point is: the gates are nothing special for the gods. They lasted a few decades before the mortals started exploding them. Not much compared to the millenia of the recent world. And, even if they last centuries, new rifts are bound to appear anyway.
On the opposite side, a gate allows for rift trasportation, which is bad news.
So, the question: "Do gods know how to make a gate?" is (in my opinion) "Possibly yes, but wouldn't do them."

Now, let's say the gods start making gates. For sure, they could make them sturdier that the mortal ones, and they can put them inside real defences like towers of diamonds.
Then, what? The Snarl open a new rift, the gods make a new gate. Rince and repeat, until the whole world is covered in giant diamonds.
Not really a win.

[brian 333]

Yes it is. As I said, it would be weak and not much effective.

Spoiler: Lots Of Words In Here That You Have Already Read Up There.

Show

But my point is: the gates are nothing special for the gods. They lasted a few decades before the mortals started exploding them. Not much compared to the millenia of the recent world. And, even if they last centuries, new rifts are bound to appear anyway.
On the opposite side, a gate allows for rift trasportation, which is bad news.
So, the question: "Do gods know how to make a gate?" is (in my opinion) "Possibly yes, but wouldn't do them."

Now, let's say the gods start making gates. For sure, they could make them sturdier that the mortal ones, and they can put them inside real defences like towers of diamonds.
Then, what? The Snarl open a new rift, the gods make a new gate. Rince and repeat, until the whole world is covered in giant diamonds.

Not really a win.

Every generation longer is a win, especially for TDO. Hel may even benefit if she ever gets her act together and gets some undead clerics capable of spawning new clerics faster than adventurers can convert them to exp.

The trick isn't the gates. That's easy, but limited in effectiveness on a global time scale. As noted, eventually there will be need for more patches.

The trick is to have TDO strong enough to survive the world's unmaking so that he can contribute a fourth quiddity in the construction of the next world. (A color The Snarl does not have.) Every generation that can be bought with short term patching increases the chance that their next Snarl Prison is the last one they will ever need.