A Compilation of Gandalf's Magical Acts

[Zevox]

That still doesn't make him a "level whatever human wizard". It makes him a unique native outsider with innate supernatural and spell-like abilities or somesuch if we really want to find a D&D-compatible term for what he is.

Didn't go back to see what my actual argument was I see. I was never arguing that he was a Human Wizard, I pointed out that translating him into D&D is kind of a fools errand with a ton of complications to sort through, including just what you would categorize him as at a basic level. He's a god, but stuck in a Human body that limits him, with his power further limited by decree of the gods he serves and intentionally on his part (but partially unlocked after his return as Gandalf the White), the magic that he does do rarely translates 1:1 to D&D magic, there's various different D&D classes that could all be argued to fit him to some degree or another - it's just kind of a mess that doesn't work when you get right down to it. D&D may have taken a lot of inspiration from LotR, but is extremely poor at modeling most supernatural things from LotR.

[tomandtish]

In another thread someone brought up a variant of the old "Gandalf was a 5th level magic user" canard, and so I decided to post this list of various magical things Gandalf did in the hopes of demonstrating how false that notion is. I welcome any input or commentary anyone would care to offer.

About citations: I only have access to an ebook version of LotR at the moment, so I can't provide meaningful page citations (though given the variety of editions that have been published over the years, I'm not sure having a paper copy would change that). Instead, I'll be citing examples by book and chapter (eg, B3C5 means Book 3, Chapter 5).

For now I'm only including things from LotR, since I don't have a copy of the Hobbit. If that changes, I'll update this post accordingly.

• His fireworks are implied to be magical (B1C1)

Whether the fireworks are magical or not, his ability to ignite them without lighting them (or even moving) is certainly magical. He does it for the children when he and Frodo are in the wagon.

[Aeson]

Whether the fireworks are magical or not, his ability to ignite them without lighting them (or even moving) is certainly magical. He does it for the children when he and Frodo are in the wagon.

That's movie-Gandalf only; Frodo doesn't meet Gandalf in the field or ride with him in the wagon bearing fireworks in the book, and nothing is said about fireworks being set off for the entertainment of the children who follow Gandalf to Bilbo's door and watch the wagon being unloaded.

[tomandtish]

That's movie-Gandalf only; Frodo doesn't meet Gandalf in the field or ride with him in the wagon bearing fireworks in the book, and nothing is said about fireworks being set off for the entertainment of the children who follow Gandalf to Bilbo's door and watch the wagon being unloaded.

Sorry. Must have missed that this was book only.

[Aeson]

Sorry. Must have missed that this was book only.

It isn't explicitly stated, but given that everything in the original post has a book-and-chapter citation and nothing whatsoever was said about the movies it seems rather implied.

[KorvinStarmast]

Gandalf isn't a spellcaster anyway, he's a high level veiled Eladrin under direct command from the Court of Stars.

Or something like that, but I think Solar is closer based on the Silmarillion (his original name being Olorin).

He broke Saruman's staff while Saruman was holding/wielding it. That's in the book.

Compels Saruman to return; verbally breaks Saruman’s staff (B3C10)

I think some folks are underselling that, but then, nobody has successfully argued what level of Magic User that {the fallen Solar} Saruman is.

[Grim Portent]

He broke Saruman's staff while Saruman was holding/wielding it. That's in the book.
I think some folks are underselling that, but then, nobody has successfully argued what level of Magic User that {the fallen Solar} Saruman is.

Wouldn't it be more relevant that he was able to break a magical item with just his voice, than that it was wielded by Sauman? In D&D terms that means a spell with no material or somatic components, being used to snap a magical item in half. I can't think of anything even vaguely similar except Disjunction.

[Thrudd]

Wouldn't it be more relevant that he was able to break a magical item with just his voice, than that it was wielded by Sauman? In D&D terms that means a spell with no material or somatic components, being used to snap a magical item in half. I can't think of anything even vaguely similar except Disjunction.

They aren't magic staves that empower the wizards, the staves are manifestations of the wizard's power. It's an item specifically tied to their authority as representatives of the Valar. When Gandalf returned from death, he was given new orders and extra authority to basically excommunicate Saruman. With his endorsement from the Valar revoked, his staff breaks. It's like the staff was a class/subclass feature, and Saruman's access to the class features was removed because he stopped serving the patron that grants those powers.

[Prime32]

Wouldn't it be more relevant that he was able to break a magical item with just his voice, than that it was wielded by Sauman? In D&D terms that means a spell with no material or somatic components, being used to snap a magical item in half. I can't think of anything even vaguely similar except Disjunction.

Shattering a divine focus with your voice can be done at lv3 though.

Also was that a matter of Gandalf overpowering Saruman, or was it because Saruman's right to the staff had already been revoked and transferred to Gandalf?

[Grim Portent]

They aren't magic staves that empower the wizards, the staves are manifestations of the wizard's power. It's an item specifically tied to their authority as representatives of the Valar. When Gandalf returned from death, he was given new orders and extra authority to basically excommunicate Saruman. With his endorsement from the Valar revoked, his staff breaks. It's like the staff was a class/subclass feature, and Saruman's access to the class features was removed because he stopped serving the patron that grants those powers.

I'm fairly certain that the staves are magical in their own right, in the same sense that elf-made items are magical. To what extent they are magical is impossible to say, but by nature of being crafted by either the Valar, the Maiar or the elves of Valinor they will be magical in D&D terms in much the same way as a rope that unties itself with a command word, or swords that glow.

Saruman's position was revoked, but what his staff actually meant in relation to his position is never made clear as I recall, it's just generally implied that they are useful for the Istari when they need to use their magical powers in some manner. Saruman does become severely diminished after Gandalf's return, but that could be attributed to his creation of the Uruk-Hai and his own ring (which may or may not have been made by him, and may or may not have been magical,) which would have invested a lot of his power in physical things.

[Sermil]

In another thread someone brought up a variant of the old "Gandalf was a 5th level magic user" canard, and so I decided to post this list of various magical things Gandalf did in the hopes of demonstrating how false that notion is. I welcome any input or commentary anyone would care to offer.

I think he also helps Elrond with the flood at the end of Book 1, shaping the water into horse shapes or some such?

[pendell]

Personally, I think "Gandalf is fifth level" would be true to the spirit of old-school AD&D, in which all characters start at first level, elite Delta Force-tier characters are second level, and level 6 characters are once-in-the-lifetime-of-a-planet legendary figures who show up once in a thousand years. Based on that scale, putting Gandalf at the upper limit of attainable human achievement would correspond very well to a level 5 character.

I would take that as a challenge to do more with less in a low-level campaign. Which is more heroic; to blast your way through all problems with an epic level wizard or achieve the same quest goal with a band of level 6 heroes?

That last is pretty much what they were attempting to accomplish with Dragonlance, at which they by and large succeeded.

The game is far more 'realistic' at low level. When you've only got about 16 hp to start with , you're not going to just shrug off arrow wounds as Roy did in-comic, scoffing that it's the cost of a healing potion. At that level, a single base healing potion restores you to practically full hp, a single sword thrust can be deadly. It requires an entirely new approach to dungeons based around caution and stealth. Even random encounters with kobolds may mean picking up a new character sheet.

So I think if we were to speak to Gary Gygax as the game was originally intended to be played back in the 1970s, level 5 for a DMPC guiding a party of level 1 rogues seems about right. Roleplaying epic characters in the 21st century is more akin to roleplaying gods or superheroes than mortals in old-school AD&D.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Aeson]

I think he also helps Elrond with the flood at the end of Book 1, shaping the water into horse shapes or some such?

Book 2, Chapter 1: "As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders."

Gandalf is also responsible for a flash of light which covered Bilbo's disappearance in Book 1, Chapter 1.

[pendell]

Book 2, Chapter 1: "As soon as the captain of the Ringwraiths rode into the water the flood was released. If I may say so, I added a few touches of my own: you may not have noticed, but some of the waves took the form of great white horses with shining white riders; and there were many rolling and grinding boulders."

Gandalf is also responsible for a flash of light which covered Bilbo's disappearance in Book 1, Chapter 1.

Dunno about the first (sounds like a mass illusion, from the old Illusionist list, shouldn't be higher than level 5) but the second could be accomplished with flash powder, no magic involved.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Aeson]

(sounds like a mass illusion, from the old Illusionist list, shouldn't be higher than level 5)

The horsemen might be accomplished with an illusion, but I rather doubt that such would account for the "rolling and grinding boulders" for which Gandalf also claimed credit.

[Dienekes]

Dunno about the first (sounds like a mass illusion, from the old Illusionist list, shouldn't be higher than level 5) but the second could be accomplished with flash powder, no magic involved.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Did he make everyone think the water looked like riders and steads or did he actually make running water take the shape of riders and steeds strong enough to roll boulders?

[pendell]

Did he make everyone think the water looked like riders and steads or did he actually make running water take the shape of riders and steeds strong enough to roll boulders?

My understanding is that the real magic here is Elrond's, who commanded the flood to occur. He can do this because the river obeys him (what is that? A modified control weather? Pretty high level).

Thousands of tons of water then generates the rolling boulders caught up in the flood, that doesn't require additional magic.

Gandalf then adds in the finishing touches -- some illusions to make some of the waves look like horses and riders. I would think that superfluous, but he knows his business best.

Also, I don't know if it was mentioned earlier but Gandalf broke Saruman's staff remotely. Is that telekinesis or mage hand?

Some context: Gandalf is the hero who overcame Sauron. So his exact power level really isn't relevant -- if anything, the weaker his personal power the more heroic the accomplishment. He used his power to inspire and encourage the hearts of the free peoples. He also intervened directly in the battles of Isengard and Minas Tirith. So whatever his exact power level was, it was more than enough for him to accomplish his task, something none of the other four wizards were able to do.

I think it was Dragonball Z which made the point that power level isn't really the most important thing, but it was well made and Tolkien thought along much the same lines.


Now Radaghast, whose sole displayed power in books is talking to animals, could be modeled with a first-level Druid

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Metastachydium]

Roleplaying epic characters in the 21st century is more akin to roleplaying gods or superheroes than mortals in old-school AD&D.

Mr. P., um, you do realize that
1. how AD&D was intended to be played is a meaningless metric for assessing the capabilities of the Istari who
2. are not mortals and, in fact, are entities a lot more like gods?

Thousands of tons of water then generates the rolling boulders caught up in the flood, that doesn't require additional magic.

Ah, I see. So Gandalf is a liar!

[Wintermoot]

Ah, I see. So Gandalf is a liar!

It has been well established multiple times that Gandalf plays fast and loose with the truth.

[pendell]

Mr. P., um, you do realize that
1. how AD&D was intended to be played is a meaningless metric for assessing the capabilities of the Istari who
2. are not mortals and, in fact, are entities a lot more like gods?

They aren't acting in their full capacity as gods; Gandalf is acting as a messenger , meant to be acting at an above-average level but most of his actions are well within the capacity of normal humans. He isn't allowed to use his full power and never does, so how powerful he is in potential really isn't important. The power level he's restricted to is considerably lower than epic-level DND.

If he ever was allowed to act at his full capacity, of course he'd be well up into epic levels very similar to gods. But we've never seen him at that level, so we couldn't judge.

I'm probably the only one on this forum who's played Tales of the Abyss , but Gandalf reminds me of Jade Curtiss from that RPG. When Jade joins your party, your characters are all level 5-6, while he's level 30+ with some of the most powerful spells in the game. He absolutely rocks the world of the first real boss we encounter.

... then, about fifteen minutes later, one of the bad guys slaps a fonic seal on him, limiting him to some 1% of his power. Which, conveniently, brings him down to parity with the rest of the party. While the other characters are levelling up through experience, Jade is working on undoing the seal, which conveniently matches his own levelling until he's back up to full power.

That's a lot like gandalf, in that 90%+ of his capability is sealed way. The difference is that Gandalf can bring it out at any time but won't; he's like the metaphorical honest man who is more tightly bound by a prison consisting of a line drawn in chalk which he has sworn not to cross, than by iron bars and armed guards.

Ah, I see. So Gandalf is a liar!

In the sense of creating illusions, of course. He also threatened Gollum with torture when he had no intention of following through. He gave Frodo a false last name to travel with Gandalf isn't a philosophically-pure truth teller but he is honest in general. He's not a Sauron for whom lying is something of an art. Gandalf sticks close to the truth, deals fairly and honorably with everyone, but that doesn't mean he's the metaphorical guardian of the cave who always tell the truth while Sauron is the other guard who always lies. Sauron tells the truth when it serves his purposes, and Gandalf will lie when absolutely necessary though he doesn't like it. They're characters, not philosophical constructs.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Zevox]

I'm probably the only one on this forum who's played Tales of the Abyss ,

I'm not getting back into the main discussion here since I said all I have to say on the matter already, but can't let this pass without saying no, you're not. That's one of my favorites of that particular franchise, and I actually believe I used Jade as my avatar here for a little while way back when.

[Metastachydium]

They aren't acting in their full capacity as gods; Gandalf is acting as a messenger , meant to be acting at an above-average level but most of his actions are well within the capacity of normal humans. He isn't allowed to use his full power and never does, so how powerful he is in potential really isn't important. The power level he's restricted to is considerably lower than epic-level DND.

If he ever was allowed to act at his full capacity, of course he'd be well up into epic levels very similar to gods. But we've never seen him at that level, so we couldn't judge.

Yes, Gandalf the Wizard doesn't operate at the same level of power as Olórin the Maia presumably did. And he can still solo Durin's Bane, an entity of comparable origin and age that had previously destroyed an entire polity commanding consoderable resources.

Further, again, he's not a human wizard who casts spells he acquired for his spellbook. He's a native outsider with Su/Sp abilities. His capabilities don't map seamlessly to those of your typical class/race character because he's not one.

In the sense of creating illusions, of course. He also threatened Gollum with torture when he had no intention of following through. He gave Frodo a false last name to travel with Gandalf isn't a philosophically-pure truth teller but he is honest in general. He's not a Sauron for whom lying is something of an art. Gandalf sticks close to the truth, deals fairly and honorably with everyone, but that doesn't mean he's the metaphorical guardian of the cave who always tell the truth while Sauron is the other guard who always lies. Sauron tells the truth when it serves his purposes, and Gandalf will lie when absolutely necessary though he doesn't like it. They're characters, not philosophical constructs.

Of course. None of that is of any relevance to the discussion at hand, however. Gandalf tells his allies he added boulders to Elrond's flood. If he just claims credit for something he had nothing to do with there, he's not being pragmatic. He's lying for the heck of it to shill himself. Does that sound like Gandalf to you? Because that doesn't sound like Gandalf to me.

[Fyraltari]

Gandalf is the hero who overcame Sauron

That's not how you spell "Samwise the Brave".

[pendell]

That's not how you spell "Samwise the Brave".

He's the one who invited Samwise on the journey. He was the dude on the other side of the chessboard from Sauron while Sam, Frodo, and the rest were pieces and pawns on the board.

I would classify Sam as starting as a pawn, making it to the eighth rank, and promoting straight past Queen to god- erm, vala-tier.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[awa]

And he can still solo Durin's Bane, an entity of comparable origin and age that had previously destroyed an entire polity commanding consoderable resources.

But we dont know how hard that was, If we assume most of those dwarves were level 1 warriors than a monster with high DR, regeneration and a powerful fear aura could slaughter them with impunity. While a slightly higher level character with the right magic items, abilities and enough luck could win.

Lotr is a low power low magic world with a few outliers. We simply dont see durins bane do enough to get a good sense of its true power level.

The feedback loop of obviously the dwarves were high level thus the balarog must have been high level to kill them and thus Gandalf must have been high level to kill it was one of the things the original article was arguing against.

[Fyraltari]

He's the one who invited Samwise on the journey. He was the dude on the other side of the chessboard from Sauron while Sam, Frodo, and the rest were pieces and pawns on the board.

I would classify Sam as starting as a pawn, making it to the eighth rank, and promoting straight past Queen to god- erm, vala-tier.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

The entire point of The Lord of the Rings is that all the wisdom of the Wise and all the might of the Mighty would have failed if not for the goodness of the Meek and Small.

Gandalf himself would object to being called "the hero who overcame Sauron".

The War of the Ring was not a chess game, that's the way Denethor and Sauron conceptualized it and they are wrong. It was the sacrifice of two Hobbits making a leap of faith beyond hope of survival and being rewarded for it.

[pendell]

The entire point of The Lord of the Rings is that all the wisdom of the Wise and all the might of the Mighty would have failed if not for the goodness of the Meek and Small.

Gandalf himself would object to being called "the hero who overcame Sauron".

The War of the Ring was not a chess game, that's the way Denethor and Sauron conceptualized it and they are wrong. It was the sacrifice of two Hobbits making a leap of faith beyond hope of survival and being rewarded for it.

Gandalf describes himself, in text, as "The enemy of Sauron". That was the reason he came to Middle-Earth, and when Sauron was gone he left also. He was the conductor and chief mover of all these events, as Aragorn recognized when he asked Gandalf to set the crown of the united kingdom of Gondor and Arnor on his head, "for he has been the primary mover of all these events". Again, explicitly in text although I'm mis-remembering the exact words of the quote.

Sam and Frodo are the heroes of the story, but the dude who spent who-knows-how-many-decades researching to learn Frodo's trinket was the One Ring, the guy who went and delivered them the warning and set them on their quest in the first place, was Gandalf. They are the musicians, he is the conductor/orchestrator who made their music possible.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Thane of Fife]

Personally, I think "Gandalf is fifth level" would be true to the spirit of old-school AD&D, in which all characters start at first level, elite Delta Force-tier characters are second level, and level 6 characters are once-in-the-lifetime-of-a-planet legendary figures who show up once in a thousand years. Based on that scale, putting Gandalf at the upper limit of attainable human achievement would correspond very well to a level 5 character.

I don't think this is an accurate depiction of old-school AD&D. If you look at OD&D, for example, high level characters are quite common. Every 30 bandits have a 4th level fighter with them, every 50 have a 5th or 6th level fighter, and every 100 have a 8th or 9th level fighter with them. Any group of orcs is likely to be accompanied by a fighter of 7th or higher level or a magic-user of 9th or higher level.

If you actually meant AD&D, we can look at the city random encounters table in the DMG. Every city guard patrol is accompanied by at least a 3rd level fighter. Another encounter is with "rakes" - 2-5 aggressive, possibly drunk, 5th to 10th level fighters.

[awa]

The thing is how much a level is worth varies from edition to edition. Third edition had pretty extreme number creep such that even a few levels difference left the other guy in the dust. While prior editions had much smaller gains. Thus while their may be a similar level spread that does not change the fact that the setting typical implied a lower power level.

Of course we also have to acknowledge that D&d is not the work of a single creator with a unified coherent vision so their will be weird outliers.

edit
did not carefully read who you responded to I also disagree with pendell that does not sound right.
edit 2
now I'm second guessing my self, I believe that e6 3rd edition better represents earlier d&d than 1-20 3rd edition does, I do not believe earlier editions thought that level 5-6 was peak human achievement.

[Metastachydium]

But we dont know how hard that was, If we assume most of those dwarves were level 1 warriors than a monster with high DR, regeneration and a powerful fear aura could slaughter them with impunity. While a slightly higher level character with the right magic items, abilities and enough luck could win.

Lotr is a low power low magic world with a few outliers. We simply dont see durins bane do enough to get a good sense of its true power level.

The feedback loop of obviously the dwarves were high level thus the balarog must have been high level to kill them and thus Gandalf must have been high level to kill it was one of the things the original article was arguing against.

Well, this:

After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod [i.e. the dwarves that sacked freakin' Menegroth and almost got away with it] and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim. The power of Moria endured throughout the Dark Years and the dominion of Sauron, for though Eregion was destroyed and the gates of Moria were shut, the halls of Khazad-dûm were too deep and strong and filled with a people too numerous and valiant for Sauron to conquer from without

is not giving me "buncha 1st level commoners" vibes. (Also, if the Fellowship consists mostly of 2nd level wannabes, what level is much everyone else? Commoner -4th?)