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2022-08-29, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-08-29, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2022
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
The March occurred every seventeenth Grand Cycle of Mechanus. A Grand Cycle was the time it took for the largest gear in the plane to turn once and was subdivided into seventeen cycles, each of which took seventeen years. Thus, the March occurred every 289 years
Pretty sure everyone thinking the estimate that it will take 2 *days* is pretty far off..
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2022-08-29, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2021
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
As someone who works for an insurance company:
good isn't smugly corrupting the regulations you work under while continuing to collect a paycheck.
good would be quitting or working to make the regulations better.
That being said, yeah, there is certainly room for nuance and a spectrum here as there should be. Both IRL and in the game.
Regardless, the choice to undermine the agreement and look for and utilize that loophole falls on the Good <==> Evil spectrum. It's not Lawful. If you absolutely have to find a way to shoehorn it onto the Law <==> Chaos spectrum, it is on the Chaotic side, not the Lawful one.Last edited by Wintermoot; 2022-08-29 at 03:42 PM.
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2022-08-29, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
If an organization's regulations explicitly instruct you to cause harm, then 1) they are evil and 2) the only lawful action is to quit. Ymmv on the degree to which it can be good to infiltrate them, since at best you'll sometimes have to cause minor harm in the pursuit of a greater good.
But if the organization's regulations make it dreadfully easy to cause harm, and encourage you to cause harm, but don't explicitly require you to cause harm... if they're effectively the only game in town, then staying can be an unquestionably-good action. Ymmv (very widely) on whether it may sometimes be in line with neutral, or neutral-shading-toward-lawful to pervert authority without disobeying it (especially if doing so in line with a higher authority).
Preventing authorities from doing as much harm as they wish for their own gain isn't a non-good act, unless you view them as some form of higher power who must be obeyed and their own personal good somehow is the greater good.
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2022-08-29, 04:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
I have consumed a lot of D&D in my life, and I have never encountered a twist as unexpected, original, and consistent as the quinton's request. The update also provides more insight into Xykon, while foreshadowing how Redcloak will have to deal with Xykon.
Just a brilliant comic.
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2022-08-29, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
He wasn’t “smugly corrupting” the regulations. He was telling her the precise set of deliberately obstructive and confusing regulations she would need to follow in order to get the money which she was legitimately owed.
His bosses were, in effect, ordering him not to do his job. He was subverting company procedure in order to actually do his job.
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2022-08-29, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2021
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
back in azure city when he was killing tsukiko, redcloak said he uses magic to keep xykon in control if i recall correctly. This entire time I've been almost certain that whenever xykon has agreed to something redcloak has been using turn/command undead, including this one.
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2022-08-29, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2022-08-29, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-08-29, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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2022-08-29, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2022-08-29, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
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2022-08-29, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
maybe im wrong, but i think that what the quinton means with rotation is different that what redcloak means. redcloak thinks that it means day, so he is thinking 48 hours. maybe the quinton is referencing the great wheel on his plane, which completes a rotation every 289 years. so he is expecting to complete the task in less than 578 years.
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2022-08-29, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2021
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Wholeheartedly agree!
I think the absolute nature of the quinton, (and modrons in general) in following the letter of the law, is going to bite RC in the arse.
My guess is that the search won't get past the 2nd set of doors before RC realizes how long it will take, but then the quinton clues him in on the teleporting with some off-handed comment right as RC is dismissing him.Last edited by alceryes; 2022-08-29 at 05:33 PM.
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2022-08-29, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2022
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
This is one of the funniest OoTS strips in a long time. I laughed REALLY hard at how the tables turned on Xykon. Also, I have a hunch that the "demon" won't be teleporting with the others as an extraplanar being, which will end the search pretty quickly. ;)
Last edited by Dellmarcus; 2022-08-29 at 05:40 PM.
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2022-08-29, 05:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
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2022-08-29, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Oh, this is going to be fun. I don't think Xykon has ever been quite this miserable, nor will he ever be again. No, not even the day he dies is going to top the next two days, assuming they don't coincide. He's totally gonna try to kill the Quinton when this is all over though.
Forcing the "kill 'em all" thoughtless lich to think is indeed a nice payment in establishing order on the multiverse. Well, assuming it doesn't find out their goal.
Actually, would it be able to terminate the contract if it finds out? Also, is Xykon compelled to speak or will him ending a sentence with even letters break the contract as well? Presumably the latter, since Xykon wouldn't be forced to think about it otherwise.
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2022-08-29, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
I think he's compelled to try, but it's like being compelled not to step on cracks in the pavement - your foot doesn't get teleported to the middle of each tile, you have to place your foot. Similarly, he's compelled to keep going until he ends a sentence with an odd-lettered word, but it doesn't put a word into his head, and he has to keep rambling until he reaches a valid stopping point.
OTOH, if he really fought it, he must have a decent chance of making a will save, but then he really would have broken the contract.Last edited by Reboot; 2022-08-29 at 06:07 PM.
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2022-08-29, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Hmm. Given that Xykon doesn't sleep, Redcloak can't cast enough Silence spells to keep it up continuously throughout the whole two days. Perhaps if he and Oona both prepare only Silence, nothing else, and they have some magic items or metamagic feats to extend the duration, then it would be enough, but then who harms Xykon during the battles?
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2022-08-29, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Really, this sums up Xykon so well and shows how much of the epitome of a psychotic immature brat he us. I suspect this may be commented on at some point.
Maybe a couple of the non-evil Chaotic-aligned characters will point out how petty and nonsensical it is… and the shoe drops and they wonder if this how obnoxious Chaotic characters can be (which, given the potshots toward Lawful characters thus far, seems fair.) Heck, Elan would naturally lampshade the whole thing.
But yeah, Redcloak’s own surprise and shock is funny here too. Like, you don’t think Dark One feels the same… or you have.
So we have a psychotic brat, an angsty teen and a juvenile monster, who’s apparently the most mature and sane member of Team Evil.
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2022-08-29, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
It is glorious to see Xykon be bossed around by something he could kill easily. What he just learned about power is that it takes different forms, and the ability to map a huge dungeon in your head is a power he lacks. If he had a nose, it would have just been rubbed in something.
It is interesting that the quintron said "full rotations", not "days". It could be important, or it could be just a modron's view of the world. Hard to know. The question as to what could be rotating, other than OotS-world, is interesting. Not a plane - that takes years, Redcloak can't bind him for this long.
BTW - how does the quintron know this can be done in two full rotations, no matter how long they are? He hasn't been outside, he hasn't seen the number of doors, he has no idea how large the whole complex is. For all he knows he just got asked to map 2 billion doors each with 3 million rooms behind it.This ... is my signature finishing move!
"It's never good when you make a fiend cringe" - MadGrady
According to some online quiz, I'm a 6th level TN Wizard. They didn't give me full XP for all the monsters I've defeated while daydreaming.
http://easydamus.com/character.html
I am a Ranger Archetype: Gleaming Warden (thx to Ninja Prawn)
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2022-08-29, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Tired: Xykon can easily circumvent this by ending every sentence with "Red" or "Redcloak."
Wired: Xykon can easily circumvent this by ending every sentence with "Morty."
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2022-08-29, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-08-29, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
2 thoughts occurred to me:
1) I would have agreed and ended every sentence with a 4 letter curse word serving as punctuation. There's enough of them for some variety, too.
2) I'm thinking Rich will be of Xykon's opinion before this is over.
Bonus thought:
3) I expect that when Xykon's had enough, the last sentence the Quinton will hear will end with "Meteor Swarm!" because it fits.
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2022-08-29, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2021
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
what happens if xykon is interrupted? can we assume there's language in those terms and conditions that specifies under what circumstances nonperformance is held to have violated the contract.
it seems to me you are begging the question here, assuming it is evil to undermine or corrupt an agreement, but there's no moral component there unless you conflate lawfulness and goodness. from a non-LG perspective there's nothing wrong with cheating or lying. there's nothing wrong with making a mockery of the process, undermining confidence in it, making the whole machinery collapse into a farce, that may even be a goal.
moreover it is begging the question to even describe searching for loopholes as corrupting or undermining the agreement. you may be assuming that original intent is the proper litmus for how an agreement should be interpreted or enforced, but that is actually not a lawful position. the lawful position sticks to the literal letter of the law, even when it would go against the intent of the parties (barring language to the contrary in the agreement). and "looking for loopholes" is just a pejorative way of referring to the finest parsing of the law, to the strictest enforcement of its small details. that is actually the highest form of respect for the law.
let us suppose a contract says a panda is in compliance if he "eats, shoots, and leaves". a strict lawful perspective would require him to use a firearm at mealtime even if the obvious intent of the contract (barring some erroneous punctuation, perhaps via autocorrect) was merely to specify what he should be eating.Last edited by LookieLouE1707; 2022-08-29 at 07:14 PM. Reason: adding an analogy
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2022-08-29, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-08-29, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2022-08-29, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Does Xykons deal apply to spell casting?
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2022-08-29, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Well, that's the trick, isn't it? Any rule seems "nonsensical and arbitrary" when you don't know the reason for it. Knowing what motivates the attachment to a rule can make it feel reasonable, apparently even if the motivation amounts to "I like arbitrary rules being followed"!
So the trope is basically just "mysterious beings with unclear motives care about rules".
[Modrons] represent the idea of Law as an implacable and incomprehensible force. They are at their best when portrayed as being so single-mindedly focused on some long term goal that they actually don’t even care about you. Sometimes they destroy your village, sometimes they don’t, and there’s really no predicting that sort of thing unless you’re knowledgeable about the Big Plan. Now I know what you’re thinking... that having a plan so convoluted and far ranging that mortal minds cannot grasp it or predict its unfolding is actually indistinguishable from not having a plan at all and just performing actions at random. And yeah... that’s true. That’s D&D alignment for you.
No, it's Lawful to follow laws. You can absolutely have a Chaotic Evil overlord who demands absolute obedience from his underlings but categorically refuses to submit to anyone else's authority.
I could follow that up with "Xykon seems like a good example of just such a character", but... he's not, really. That's not his general management style. Xykon seems perfectly happy to leave his minions to their own devices for the most part, relying on them to find ways to remain in his favor and thus avoid horrible death at his bony hands. But I maintain that his relatively rare specific edicts, like forbidding Redcloak from regenerating his eye, aren't even "minor Lawful acts compatible with Chaotic alignment", but just plain not Lawful.
Now, if a villain is willing to enforce his commands even when doing so is inconvenient, because his own authority is important to him... I wouldn't say that that villain necessarily is Lawful, but I would call that a Lawful facet of his character. Like, he's probably not Chaotic. He's willing to accept restrictions on his actions. (Although only being willing to accept self-imposed restrictions strikes me as still being Chaotic, personally. But I dislike lack of discipline being mandatory for Chaotic characters; saying that it is mandatory may be the less biased reading of the text.)
Let's just say that if you think that undermining the purpose of a law or a contract is more inherently Evil than, say, violence, you have, um, an unconventional interpretation of the alignment system.
Hence classifying it as Good. It certainly doesn't seem Chaotic nor Evil, and every ethical position on everything must fall on one end of one of the alignment axes, so it must be Good.
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2022-08-29, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread
Someone, I think it was Roy, already outright told us that the caves could only be straight lines anyway in order to fit, and yet I don't think they are. The fact that Team Evil hasn't noticed that the caverns behind the doors should be intersecting but aren't leads to two conclusions:
1: They bought the shell game even harder than we thought.
2. They noticed the teleportation, but still thought the Gate was behind a door anyway.
Seeing as they care about the quinton mapping the place, I expect 1 is the right answer. I give it maybe 3 doors before they realize they've been had with the swap overs (even if it notices the teleport the quinton might not bring it up: the task given may or may not cover that depending on how you interpret it). The Order's meeting is about to get interrupted by whatever alarm Serini set up.
I also think this sheds new light on the Redcloak/Xykon gambit pileup we see, about who's really in control. I just don't quite have enough info to know exactly what it means. We find that Xykon hates being told what to do and Redcloak already knew that, to the point that Xykon only really cares about whether or not he can kill you...but that's not really info we didn't have, it's just words that we might not have chosen about those ideas. I think it ends up as a point to Redcloak because ultimately Xykon took the deal in exactly the way Redcloak has always claimed to control him: Lose the argument, let Xykon claw back some control, and get everything you actually asked for anyway."Thursdays. I could never get the hang of Thursdays."-Arthur Dent, The Hitchhiker's Guide
"I had a normal day once. It was a Thursday." -Will Bailey, The West Wing
Roy will be Xykon's Final Boss