OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread

[Flibbert]

A bit late to the party I know but I think we should post according to the same rule... type... thing!

[Quizatzhaderac]

I feel like there should be a skill like Knowledge (Common Sense) to cover situations such as this.

There is, but it's a cross class skill for every class but commoners.

Commoners also get a +49 billion bonus to spot the sun.

[Laurentio III]

Yup. As The Giant put it:

I've used this example before, but if a paladin walks into the orc's swamp to do battle, he is not suddenly bound to obey the Orc King's laws or lose his paladinhood. It is entirely possible to have a code that you believe supersedes the written law wherever you are and still be considered Lawful.

On the total polar opposite but still relevant, the one comic where The Joker is the Iranian Ambassador and is protected by international laws.

[Doug Lampert]

There is, but it's a cross class skill for every class but commoners.

Commoners also get a +49 billion bonus to spot the sun.

Sun to earth difference averages 149.6 million kilometers, for a spot penalty of over 49.08 billion, so a net penalty for a commoner of roughly 80 million. If you allow sizes larger than colossal (not in core rules, but reasonable) then the sun is colossal +25 sizes for a +116 bonus to spot, still nowhere close to good enough.

On the other hand, at perihelion (~3 January) the sun is only ~147.3 million km from the Earth, and then, a commoner CAN spot the sun as the distance penalty is only about 48.33 billion. So commoners can see the sun, but only in winter if in the northern hemisphere and in summer in the southern hemisphere.

[danielxcutter]

On the total polar opposite but still relevant, the one comic where The Joker is the Iranian Ambassador and is protected by international laws.

…I beg your pardon?

[Laurentio III]

…I beg your pardon?

It happened. Batman #429.

Now, that was a situation where "lawful" barely applies.
On one hand, a foreign ambassador in a democratic country is almost intouchable. International laws forbids to ever question him unless his government allows.
On the other hand, The Joker.
Now, if you are so much lawful to respect a convicted criminal, clinically insane, plurihomicidal and very fond of explosives and deadly gas because he's protected by the law, you are a failure at lawfulness.

Side note: Superman is apparently too much lawful for his own confort.

[Trixie_One]

EDIT: Also, in the spirit of Lawfulness, it is spelt "surely".

Not when it's an intentional misspelling to represent being overly and/or pointlessly pedantic popularized by a british comedic political print publication.

Yes, likely to be lost on most readers to this thread, but one I found hard to resist using anyway.

[danielxcutter]

It happened. Batman #429.

Now, that was a situation where "lawful" barely applies.
On one hand, a foreign ambassador in a democratic country is almost intouchable. International laws forbids to ever question him unless his government allows.
On the other hand, The Joker.
Now, if you are so much lawful to respect a convicted criminal, clinically insane, plurihomicidal and very fond of explosives and deadly gas because he's protected by the law, you are a failure at lawfulness.

Side note: Superman is apparently too much lawful for his own confort.

Well-written Superman is actually a bad example of this because he very very intentionally holds back for good reason.

[Doug Lampert]

It happened. Batman #429.

Now, that was a situation where "lawful" barely applies.
On one hand, a foreign ambassador in a democratic country is almost intouchable. International laws forbids to ever question him unless his government allows.
On the other hand, The Joker.
Now, if you are so much lawful to respect a convicted criminal, clinically insane, plurihomicidal and very fond of explosives and deadly gas because he's protected by the law, you are a failure at lawfulness.

Side note: Superman is apparently too much lawful for his own confort.

The lawful response to The Joker as Iranian ambassador (presumably to the UN as I don't think they have had a mission to the USA for a longish time) would be for the US government to expel the Iranian diplomatic missions from this country, give them 3 days to get out (and on a plane to Iran), and inform Iran that we will treat any actions by The Joker prior to his expulsion or to them waiving diplomatic immunity as official actions by the Iranian government and if they do not waive immunity prior to him even starting preparations for the inevitable murder spree then we will destroy their government and as much of the rest of their country as gets in the way.

On the other hand, in comics/movie universe, The Joker has never been accidently shot 157 times while in custody on the way to Arkham, so I would not expect that sort of sane and measured response from the government.

[masamune1]

The lawful response to The Joker as Iranian ambassador (presumably to the UN as I don't think they have had a mission to the USA for a longish time) would be for the US government to expel the Iranian diplomatic missions from this country, give them 3 days to get out (and on a plane to Iran), and inform Iran that we will treat any actions by The Joker prior to his expulsion or to them waiving diplomatic immunity as official actions by the Iranian government and if they do not waive immunity prior to him even starting preparations for the inevitable murder spree then we will destroy their government and as much of the rest of their country as gets in the way.

On the other hand, in comics/movie universe, The Joker has never been accidently shot 157 times while in custody on the way to Arkham, so I would not expect that sort of sane and measured response from the government.

Yeah. It was a silly story- it wasn't just that it was The Joker, it was set not long after Joker murdered Jason Todd as well. It was just to give Batman a reason to encounter the Joker without immediately throttling him.

I also think the UN (I think it was them, yes) would refuse to allow him into the building since he was a notorious whimsical terrorist and it would be completely in-character for him to try and bomb the building for the lolz as well (he does, in fact, try to gas everyone)- outside of his past crimes, he's an active security risk.

Dr Doom gets a bit more leeway with the "diplomatic immunity" thing since he's a) actually the sovereign ruler of a country, and b) it capable of going toe-to-toe with the United States and actually winning simply because he's Dr Doom...I only bring Doom up because I think that's the one that started the whole "diplomatic immunity works for supervillains" shtick in the first place that pops up in comics like this.

[Peelee]

On the other hand, when his boss was reaming him out over this he replied "but isn't it our job to help our customers?" and the boss replied stiffly "I am legally obligated to say yes." That implies that there are at least two sets of rules here, and Mr. Incredible was following the higher one (the one that his boss should have been bound by, but was trying to circumvent with the obstructive policies).

I'd say that implies the job is specifically to deny people but they can't openly say that and are legally required to say otherwise, despite what may actually be the case.

Having dealt with health insurance companies as my job for the last decade or so, I attest their job is to be a roadblock to any claims.

[masamune1]

On the other hand, when his boss was reaming him out over this he replied "but isn't it our job to help our customers?" and the boss replied stiffly "I am legally obligated to say yes." That implies that there are at least two sets of rules here, and Mr. Incredible was following the higher one (the one that his boss should have been bound by, but was trying to circumvent with the obstructive policies).

I'd say that implies the job is specifically to deny people but they can't openly say that and are legally required to say otherwise, despite what may actually be the case.

Having dealt with health insurance companies as my job for the last decade or so, I attest their job is to be a roadblock to any claims.

Actually, the exchange was:

Bob Parr / Mr Incredible: "Isn't it our job to help people?"

Boss: "We're supposed to protect OUR PEOPLE!"

(EDIT- My mistake, the boss says both things; my bad)

Also, Bob actually points out regulations and policy that says they SHOULD be helping the customers like he is doing, an his boss immediately shuts him down and says he doesn't want to hear it- with the tone being "if you told me those regulations I can't pretend that I don't know them".

Basically, Bob was doing his job to the letter, and his boss didn't like it, because his boss is more a Lawful Evil ******* (leaning Evil to be honest) and is more concerned with profit and kissing the asses of his bosses, as well as throwing his weight around (he clearly takes some sadistic delight in threatening to have Bob fired).

[H_H_F_F]

For those of us who love technicalities and corner cases, remember that the summon is Lawful Neutral. Actively looking to exploit loopholes and screw people over is Lawful Evil. The deal will be broken if it gets the impression that Xykon isn't even trying to respect it, not necessarily from a single slip-up (especially if Xykon hastily attempts to correct it, as seen here.)

Exactly. The reason of the deal is to make him try. The effort is key.
If Xykon just stay silent for two days, it would be akin to a cheat.

Hard disagree with both of these statements.

There's a huge difference between looking for loopholes and holding someone accountable for the deal. If I fail to hold up my side of a contract, even if I had the best intentions, refusing to hold up yours isn't Evil at all.

"Spells are sentences" could be seen as catching Xykon on an Evil technicality. Single slip-up because he got too mad isn't.

Believe it or not, a creature of pure order such as a 3.5 Modron cares about the letter of the law more than it does about some lich trying his gosh darn best. It would also not break its own contract because it's feeling salty about said lich twisting its word. That'd ve completely ludicrous.

Again, evil or not evil, this isn't some "dude who's generally lawful". This isn't Roy. It's a freaking Quinton. A manifestation of cosmological clockwork order. It's far closer to being an AI than to being a lawful person.

[Vikenlugaid]

Well, Xykon is smarter than he looks... But he is also far more stupid than he thinks.

[sihnfahl]

Well, Xykon is smarter than he looks... But he is also far more stupid than he thinks.

He's not dumb; he's just not all that wise.

Instant gratification and a short attention span is his bugbear.

[HalfTangible]

Actually, the exchange was:

Bob Parr / Mr Incredible: "Isn't it our job to help people?"

Boss: "We're supposed to protect OUR PEOPLE!"

Also, Bob actually points out regulations and policy that says they SHOULD be helping the customers like he is doing, an his boss immediately shuts him down and says he doesn't want to hear it- with the tone being "if you told me those regulations I can't pretend that I don't know them".

Basically, Bob was doing his job to the letter, and his boss didn't like it, because his boss is more a Lawful Evil ******* (leaning Evil to be honest) and is more concerned with profit and kissing the asses of his bosses, as well as throwing his weight around (he clearly takes some sadistic delight in threatening to have Bob fired).

I'd say that implies the job is specifically to deny people but they can't openly say that and are legally required to say otherwise, despite what may actually be the case.

Having dealt with health insurance companies as my job for the last decade or so, I attest their job is to be a roadblock to any claims.

On the other hand, when his boss was reaming him out over this he replied "but isn't it our job to help our customers?" and the boss replied stiffly "I am legally obligated to say yes." That implies that there are at least two sets of rules here, and Mr. Incredible was following the higher one (the one that his boss should have been bound by, but was trying to circumvent with the obstructive policies).

Bob is a very bad insurance agent. That's the entire point.

In his first scene with the boss, said boss yells at him for authorizing payment on "the walker policy". He then goes on to rant that Bob hands out checks to "every Harry Harbuckle and Sally Sobstory that gives [him] a phone call". The issue isn't that Bob is paying out because he wants to help people, it's that he pays out to everyone who comes his way, and an insurance company that pays out more than it takes in is going to collapse, leaving no one with anything. And when he does snap, almost kills his boss, and gets the government agent on him again, we learn that this has been a regular problem for Bob. The dude wants to help, but every time he does it causes "a month and a half of trouble" and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Bob is explicitly having trouble adjusting to civilian life and it's causing major problems for himself, his family and even his government because being a superhero has a very different set of rules to being an insurance agent. But insurance agent is the closest thing he can get to helping people out of disasters without making use of his powers. He can't, say, become a cop or a firefighter because it's almost impossible to hide that you're a super in a physically demanding and dangerous field like that. (Same reason Dash can't go out for sports)

[InvisibleBison]

Commoners also get a +49 billion bonus to spot the sun.

Commoners don't need a Spot bonus to be able to see the sun, because the sun isn't trying to hide from them.

[bunsen_h]

Ah, I misread and thought it was the whole sentence. That would be far harder to manage as an author, seems disastrous.

And after Haley's "a new substitution cipher every strip" aphasia, too!

For someone with even slight coding skills, those are both fairly trivial to handle. All you need is a simple program (it could be done with a spreadsheet) which the line of text is fed into. For the even/odd letter count problem, it would spit out "even" or "odd", or "good" or "bad", or the letter count, or some similar message to tell you if the text was appropriate. If necessary, change the text slightly, test, repeat until it works. For the cipher problem, it would generate the cipher and output the ciphered text. You might use the page number as the seed for the random generator, so you could go back later with new text for that page.

Thaaaaaanks, now I have filkworms of one of the world's most nauseatingly treacly/inane songs (Surfer Girl) circling around in my head. (^_~)

See also: Tom Smith's "Smurfin' Safari".

I noticed again that the roaches are telegraphing a demonic origin. Roaches as moles planted by IFCC crops up again - trying to recall their origins, was that in SoD?

Yes.

Spoiler: SoD

Show

"Demonic cockroaches. The place is crawling with them. In order to prepare authentic evil ethnic food, the kitchen here summons all of the seasonings from the Spice Rack of the Damned, in the Abyss. You know, Malevolent Basil, Thyme of Death, Cumin of 1000 Horrors, that kind of thing. Anyway, the rancid smell of the cooking attracts the roaches from the other side of the portal and then they get stuck here."

Someone, I think it was Roy, already outright told us that the caves could only be straight lines anyway in order to fit, and yet I don't think they are.

I don't recall any such comment in the comic. If most of the dungeons have long hallways between their doors and the dungeons proper, they could spread outward and downward from the cliff face, and have plenty of room for whatever configuration is necessary. Of course, the characters can see some things that we can't, and they may be able to see that there aren't hallways like that. On the other hand, members of the Order have only looked behind a couple of the doors, so they wouldn't be able to make much generalization.

Having dealt with health insurance companies as my job for the last decade or so, I attest their job is to be a roadblock to any claims.

My wife's insurance company was quite effective at blocking her claims, after a surgical error nearly killed her several times over. She wasn't comatose enough, and for part of it, she was being given medication to ensure that she stayed comatose, and induced coma didn't meet their criteria. All of the time in intensive care units, all of the internal damage that she underwent, didn't quite meet their criteria. She would send a claim form with supporting documentation, and get a message back that they'd received the form but not the documentation. She'd send another copy of the documentation, only to be told that they hadn't ever received the form. Send the form again, and they claimed that they only had half the documentation even though it was all sent in one package. What ultimately got her the claim was the relatively incidental consequent stuff about being unable to manage some of the "activities of daily living" such as bathing without assistance.

In his first scene with the boss, said boss yells at him for authorizing payment on "the walker policy". He then goes on to rant that Bob hands out checks to "every Harry Harbuckle and Sally Sobstory that gives [him] a phone call". The issue isn't that Bob is paying out because he wants to help people, it's that he pays out to everyone who comes his way, and an insurance company that pays out more than it takes in is going to collapse, leaving no one with anything.

The boss's complaint that Bob pays out to everyone who gives him a phone call is coming from a very biased source. I don't consider it at all reliable. The one example that we see in detail, the little old lady, clearly is entitled to her claim according to the rules that Bob tells her how to follow.

[cheezewizz2000]

If I was Xyzon, I'd just finish every sentence with "or something" and be done with it. Just put up with sounding like a stereotype for a bit.

[masamune1]

Bob is a very bad insurance agent. That's the entire point.

In his first scene with the boss, said boss yells at him for authorizing payment on "the walker policy". He then goes on to rant that Bob hands out checks to "every Harry Harbuckle and Sally Sobstory that gives [him] a phone call". The issue isn't that Bob is paying out because he wants to help people, it's that he pays out to everyone who comes his way, and an insurance company that pays out more than it takes in is going to collapse, leaving no one with anything. And when he does snap, almost kills his boss, and gets the government agent on him again, we learn that this has been a regular problem for Bob. The dude wants to help, but every time he does it causes "a month and a half of trouble" and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Bob is explicitly having trouble adjusting to civilian life and it's causing major problems for himself, his family and even his government because being a superhero has a very different set of rules to being an insurance agent. But insurance agent is the closest thing he can get to helping people out of disasters without making use of his powers. He can't, say, become a cop or a firefighter because it's almost impossible to hide that you're a super in a physically demanding and dangerous field like that. (Same reason Dash can't go out for sports)

I agree that Bob isn't suited to the job of insurance agent and has trouble adjusting to civilian life in general...however, I don't regard the boss as a particularly trustworthy or unbiased authority either. The boss is a weasel who doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself and his shareholders and superiors, is verbally and physically abusive to his employee (grabbing Bob's face), and refuses to let Bob defend himself or point out that he's still following the rules.

(I was also half-wrong- the boss DOES say "the law requires that I answer no", albeit a little earlier in the conversation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC_97F2Zn9k

I definitely don't think the moral of the story is "Bob is a very bad insurance agent" or "Bob's actions would eventually cause the insurance company to collapse somewhere down the line", certainly not in a friggin' Pixar movie. The problem is that he violently overreacted, not that he was in the wrong up to that point or that his boss wasn't genuinely a pr*ck.

EDIT- If you look VERY closely at the memo the boss has on his desk, it says the company is making record profits...and also says they're going to be charging their employees by the hour for parking, that they'll have to pay for their own office supplies, and that their office phone and electricity costs will now be deducted from their paycheques. So yeah, the boss is just a penny-pinching jerk who is looking for any excuse to cut costs and make money even when things are going well.

[Arbaj]

This... tragedy, makes me so giddy. Thank you Rich... Xykon is so injured by this. I love it...

Maybe it will come to pass that a test of purity of self needs to happen later in the dungeon in order to pass a gate and this "deal" he made will be considered a violation of his principles and nuke or weaken him :D D: :D :D

[arimareiji]

I'd say that implies the job is specifically to deny people but they can't openly say that and are legally required to say otherwise, despite what may actually be the case.

Having dealt with health insurance companies as my job for the last decade or so, I attest their job is to be a roadblock to any claims.

Demur, deflect, delay, derail, deny, defend until demise.

[Doug Lampert]

Commoners don't need a Spot bonus to be able to see the sun, because the sun isn't trying to hide from them.

Irrelevant, you also explicitly use spot (including the distance penalties) to see distant things that are not hiding.

[Nomen]

This... tragedy, makes me so giddy. Thank you Rich... Xykon is so injured by this. I love it...

Maybe it will come to pass that a test of purity of self needs to happen later in the dungeon in order to pass a gate and this "deal" he made will be considered a violation of his principles and nuke or weaken him :D D: :D :D

Is some arbitrary test trying to tell me I'm not allowed to make deals, how dare it I'm going to go make a deal right now.

[InvisibleBison]

Irrelevant, you also explicitly use spot (including the distance penalties) to see distant things that are not hiding.

No, you don't. The rules are quite clear about when you make a Spot check:

• To detect creatures who are are hiding.
• To detect creatures who are not hiding but are still difficult to see.
• To become aware of a nearby invisible creature.
• To detect someone in disguise.
• To read lips.
• To determine the distance at which an encounter can begin.

Someone trying to look at the sun doesn't fall into any of these categories.

[HalfTangible]

The boss's complaint that Bob pays out to everyone who gives him a phone call is coming from a very biased source. I don't consider it at all reliable. The one example that we see in detail, the little old lady, clearly is entitled to her claim according to the rules that Bob tells her how to follow.

The first thing Bob says in that scene is that he can't pay her because their liabilities are spelled out in paragraph 17.

I agree that Bob isn't suited to the job of insurance agent and has trouble adjusting to civilian life in general...however, I don't regard the boss as a particularly trustworthy or unbiased authority either. The boss is a weasel who doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself and his shareholders and superiors, is verbally and physically abusive to his employee (grabbing Bob's face), and refuses to let Bob defend himself or point out that he's still following the rules.

(I was also half-wrong- the boss DOES say "the law requires that I answer no", albeit a little earlier in the conversation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC_97F2Zn9k

I definitely don't think the moral of the story is "Bob is a very bad insurance agent" or "Bob's actions would eventually cause the insurance company to collapse somewhere down the line", certainly not in a friggin' Pixar movie. The problem is that he violently overreacted, not that he was in the wrong up to that point or that his boss wasn't genuinely a pr*ck.

I'm not saying that the Boss isn't a prick, because he absolutely is.

Just that the point of the scenes isn't "insurance company bad", but "Bob is bad at this job he also hates, in part because he's a poor fit for it". And more importantly, "Bob isn't adjusting to civilian life"

And the government agent doesn't *just* say that Bob ****ed up but that this has happened multiple times before.

EDIT- If you look VERY closely at the memo the boss has on his desk, it says the company is making record profits...and also says they're going to be charging their employees by the hour for parking, that they'll have to pay for their own office supplies, and that their office phone and electricity costs will now be deducted from their paycheques. So yeah, the boss is just a penny-pinching jerk who is looking for any excuse to cut costs and make money even when things are going well.

Does it? I thought it outlined the speech that the boss was about to give, hence Bob already knowing what he was about to say.

[Peelee]

Demur, deflect, delay, derail, deny, defend until demise.

Our lawyer just kept it short. "Deny, delay, defend". Only need to keep it up for a little over a year until they're off the hook.

[arimareiji]

Our lawyer just kept it short. "Deny, delay, defend". Only need to keep it up for a little over a year until they're off the hook.

Considering the long-term results, I submit that health insurance strategists deserve their own alignment category.

[Laurentio III]

Does it? I thought it outlined the speech that the boss was about to give, hence Bob already knowing what he was about to say.

Since the first time I've seen the movie, I'm under the impression that Bob is playing dumb. He seems depressed and submissive, but all his question are armor-piercing and he puts the boss as much on the defensive as himself.
Plus, the moment he witnesses a crime, his voice and posture immediately change.
I think that it was him "Clark Kenting" or, specifically for him, feigning to be a common person as he sees them.

That would make him a little on the side of a gold-hearted jerk.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Now, if you are so much lawful to respect a convicted criminal, clinically insane,....

So there's actually no such thing as "clinically insane", a person's sanity is a legal question, not a medical one. Also a person can't be both convicted of a crime and found to have been insane when they committed it, either they sanely committed the crime, or they didn't have the ability to make a real choice.

There's a theory that basically nobody that batman captures can actually be criminally prosecuted as essentially nothing batman touches can be used in court as evidence. In which case, the occupants of Arkham asylum are all actually in good legal standing, committed based on their eccentricity, rather than specific crimes.