Yu-Gi-Oh Trading Card Game

[Gold Leaf]

Does anyone on GiantITP play Yu-Gi-Oh? This is where we're gonna find out. Feel free to use this space to talk about card art, your favourite decks, why Pot of Greed should be unbanned, your rarest cards, anything related to the Yu-Gi-Oh TCG.

[Rynjin]

I've been playing a lot of Master Duel, if that counts. it's about 6 months to a year behind on card packs and uses the OCG banlist rather than the TCG, but close enough?

I've been floating around a lot of different decks, but currently bounce between playing Rose Adventure Tenyi and a janky (but fun) Invoked Relinquished deck I homebrewed. I also have a pretty fun Infernoble deck, but that deck dies in a couple of days when the new banlist comes down and True King of All Calamities/VFD gets yeeted.

We should be getting new Branded support in a few weeks, which'll make me pick that deck back up. I really enjoy Fallen of Albaz and his different forms.

I also found a Limited Edition glossy Exodia in my desk drawer the other day, which is neat. I wish I knew where my other physical cards are.

[Blackhawk748]

I play Speed Duels, because dear god I am not dealing with MDs terrible banlist for more than like... 3 matches at a crack and I sure as hell ain't dealing with Tier Basically 0 Splight and Tearalement in Advanced.

Speed Duels is in such a nice place right now.

[Lord Raziere]

I only played it long time ago when I was like, a kid and never all that much.

I almost bought Egyptian god cards but my brother convinced me to get an Xbox instead and I kind of didn't play card games for a long time afterwards. good thing to, those cards would be a waste of money and I was a child so not smart.

the only reason I'd go back to Yu-Gi-Oh I think is to pull off an Exodia combo at least once, no matter how impractical or unviable it is now.

[Rynjin]

I play Speed Duels, because I am not dealing with MDs terrible banlist for more than like... 3 matches at a crack

The only real, admittedly huge issue with MD's banlist IMO is Maxx "C" right now. It's apparently the OCG's pet card for some reason, and it's just...so disruptive and silly how one card that can be played on your opponent's turn singlehandedly wins the game.

[LaZodiac]

The only real, admittedly huge issue with MD's banlist IMO is Maxx "C" right now. It's apparently the OCG's pet card for some reason, and it's just...so disruptive and silly how one card that can be played on your opponent's turn singlehandedly wins the game.

Just do what my girlfriend does and disregard it, then plate sushi at them until they die.

Or play Gladiator Beasts like I do and negate it.

[Rynjin]

Just do what my girlfriend does and disregard it, then plate sushi at them until they die.

Or play Gladiator Beasts like I do and negate it.

Negating it's not really the issue, it's the fact that you need to dedicate like 12 cards in your deck TO negating it that's annoying. And with Crossout going to 1, we're mostly losing one of the better ways to do it.

...Mind you I only own one copy of Crossout anyway, but it's the principle of the thing.

I think the part that really gets my goat about it is that you can play it on turn 2. So someone can go first, set up a powerful board of negates and traps, then play Maxx "C" on your turn and your options are essentially to negate it and hope they don't counter-counter, or concede.

[Gold Leaf]

Negating it's not really the issue, it's the fact that you need to dedicate like 12 cards in your deck TO negating it that's annoying. And with Crossout going to 1, we're mostly losing one of the better ways to do it.

...Mind you I only own one copy of Crossout anyway, but it's the principle of the thing.

I think the part that really gets my goat about it is that you can play it on turn 2. So someone can go first, set up a powerful board of negates and traps, then play Maxx "C" on your turn and your options are essentially to negate it and hope they don't counter-counter, or concede.

This is why I always, every single time I get the choice, choose to move first. I hate having to leave it up to luck and the belief that my opponent is casual (spoiler: they aren't) enough to not have placed negates against everything I do.

Next set should really include some support cards to give weaker decks a chance to survive past Turn 4'

[Blackhawk748]

The only real, admittedly huge issue with MD's banlist IMO is Maxx "C" right now. It's apparently the OCG's pet card for some reason, and it's just...so disruptive and silly how one card that can be played on your opponent's turn singlehandedly wins the game.

Rhongo is still legal for a baffling reason. Oh they banned one of the enablers, but I have no idea why you would do that instead of just banning the damn thing. Floo is a nightmare and is nearly as obnoxious as Drytron and Swordsoul is.

We're just playing a much, much worse version of the Format from like last year.

This is why I always, every single time I get the choice, choose to move first. I hate having to leave it up to luck and the belief that my opponent is casual (spoiler: they aren't) enough to not have placed negates against everything I do.

Next set should really include some support cards to give weaker decks a chance to survive past Turn 4'

We're in the middle of the format that was renowned for Combo Fiesta Duels that were over on Turn 1 or 2 and entirely dependent on Hand Traps. It sucked.

[Rynjin]

Rhongo is still legal for a baffling reason. Oh they banned one of the enablers, but I have no idea why you would do that instead of just banning the damn thing.

Because Rhongo straight up doesn't really matter. #75 being an enabler was the issue, making getting a 5 material Rhongo TOO easy. Without it, the card is overly difficult to build, and requires such convoluted means that if you do manage it you actually deserve the win.

Floo is a nightmare and is nearly as obnoxious as Drytron and Swordsoul is.

Weird to see complaints about Drytron still, honestly. I haven't had issues with that deck since MD's original meta. Swordsoul likewise is overblown as being powerful. It's extremely easy to play but absolutely folds compared to the true top tier decks like Prank Kids and Eldlich ATM. Floo is much the same way. They're too inconsistent to be truly viable.

Floo IS super annoying to play against because of the way they co-opt your own turn to combo with, but overall easy to beat as long as you make sure to tech your deck with a half-decent out for Wind Barrier Statue. Besides said statue their ideal endboard is not exactly unbreakable. Apex Avian is their strongest monster, and it's no more (and in some ways much less) oppressive than a lot of other negates.

I think it's telling that their showing in the Duelist Cup was pretty minimal.

Spoiler: Duelist Cup deck rep

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They just barely squeak in above "other".

[Mx.Silver]

I've been playing Master Duel a fair bit over the last few months, at least in part because it's surprisingly accessible as a fee experience. I've played a lot of different CCGs over the years, digital and physical, to varying degrees and while Yugioh is definitely not one I'd put at the top of that list, nonetheless it's kind of the one I drift back to every now and then (digitally only). Mostly because the trend of most of games I'd place above it died, and because most card battle style CCGs will inevitably start morphing into Modern Yugioh if left to run long enough anyway, but still

It's kind of an... interesting time atm. Been a while since I've seen a meta start to skew in the way that's kind of happening with MD in real-time (and from what I've seen of the OCG is probably going to get worse as time moves on). Not as bad as 2018 Duel Links, obviously, but there's a 'build squeeze' happening in the competitive scene post-Adventure's introduction, and given that True King of All Calamities upcoming ban is likely going to chase a lot of Virtual World players off that deck that's probably not going to shift much in the coming months.

The only real, admittedly huge issue with MD's banlist IMO is Maxx "C" right now. It's apparently the OCG's pet card for some reason, and it's just...so disruptive and silly how one card that can be played on your opponent's turn singlehandedly wins the game.

Eh, if given a choice between 'lose because my opponent played one card I didn't have an out for' or 'lose because my oponent spent 5+ minutes combo-ing to something I don't have the out for' I'd take the first option any day (same reason I don't have the same problems with a lot of floodgate decks and numeron OTK decks that a lot of the playerbase seem to). Also, the thing is, Maxx 'C' isn't necessarily a game-ender, it's just that the decks that can get to a workable point within 2-3 special summons tend to be on the low/rogue-tier end of things compared to the current wombo-combo piles that dominate platinum and above atm (aside from Eldlich). Plus, if Maxx 'C' wasn't getting run, for most decks that'd just mean putting in a different handtrap or utility card instead, so in terms of making the metagame a bit more open/diverse I don't know if it'd do all that much.

Also:

Negating it's not really the issue, it's the fact that you need to dedicate like 12 cards in your deck TO negating it that's annoying.

I don't entirely agree with this. Crossout yeah is pretty mostly just run on Maxx 'C' atm. That's not true of Ash Blossom, as that effect is live and effective against a lot of decks and is definitely not true of Called By The Grave, hence presumably why it's banned in the TCG. If you include Psy-Frame Gamma as a counter, than that's also live against enough targets that it sees play in formats where Maxx 'C' isn't legal, (plus it's not run to the same extent in MD as Ash and Called By are anyway).

I think the part that really gets my goat about it is that you can play it on turn 2. So someone can go first, set up a powerful board of negates and traps, then play Maxx "C" on your turn and your options are essentially to negate it and hope they don't counter-counter, or concede.

Fair, although tbh if you're going second against a negate board then most live handtraps in that scenario are often kind of back-breaking.

There was one Plunder Patroll vs Ignister game I had where this happened that was actually kind of fun in the end, but then neither of those decks are particularly 'combo-negate' to begin with, so probably doesn't really count

Floo IS super annoying to play against because of the way they co-opt your own turn to combo with, but overall easy to beat as long as you make sure to tech your deck with a half-decent out for Wind Barrier Statue. Besides said statue their ideal endboard is not exactly unbreakable. Apex Avian is their strongest monster, and it's no more (and in some ways much less) oppressive than a lot of other negates.

I played Floow a bunch in Duelist Cup and yeah, this is accurate. I can guarantee that for every annoying loss someone's had against Floo, their opponent has spent an amount of time losing to just bricking or their opponent having the search negate at the right time, etc.

[Blackhawk748]

Because Rhongo straight up doesn't really matter. #75 being an enabler was the issue, making getting a 5 material Rhongo TOO easy. Without it, the card is overly difficult to build, and requires such convoluted means that if you do manage it you actually deserve the win.

Its an exceedingly unfair card that has been banned for years in both formats for a good reason. The fact it was ever legal, and still is, on MD is incredibly stupid. Ditto to VFD. What they were smoking when they saw it ruin both the TCG and the OCG and they decided to just let it live in MD I will never know.

Weird to see complaints about Drytron still, honestly. I haven't had issues with that deck since MD's original meta. Swordsoul likewise is overblown as being powerful. It's extremely easy to play but absolutely folds compared to the true top tier decks like Prank Kids and Eldlich ATM. Floo is much the same way. They're too inconsistent to be truly viable.

Floo IS super annoying to play against because of the way they co-opt your own turn to combo with, but overall easy to beat as long as you make sure to tech your deck with a half-decent out for Wind Barrier Statue. Besides said statue their ideal endboard is not exactly unbreakable. Apex Avian is their strongest monster, and it's no more (and in some ways much less) oppressive than a lot of other negates.

I think it's telling that their showing in the Duelist Cup was pretty minimal.

If you aren't prepared for Drytron, they will just destroy you and you won't get a turn. They have always been horrifically unfun and go in the same bin as Floodgate Eldlich. Not good, but ****ing obnoxious to play against. The same goes for Swordsoul, its like the Numerons of high tier.

And the reason their showing is so bad is because the entire meta is teched out to slaughter them, explicitly because they are obnoxious if you don't. At minimum Statue should have been hit on the last list but Konami refuses to actually hit obnoxious stuff. Like Eldliches pile of Floodgates.

Which isn't even good! Synchro Lich is better!

Eh, if given a choice between 'lose because my opponent played one card I didn't have an out for' or 'lose because my oponent spent 5+ minutes combo-ing to something I don't have the out for' I'd take the first option any day (same reason I don't have the same problems with a lot of floodgate decks and numeron OTK decks that a lot of the playerbase seem to). Also, the thing is, Maxx 'C' isn't necessarily a game-ender, it's just that the decks that can get to a workable point within 2-3 special summons tend to be on the low/rogue-tier end of things compared to the current wombo-combo piles that dominate platinum and above atm (aside from Eldlich). Plus, if Maxx 'C' wasn't getting run, for most decks that'd just mean putting in a different handtrap or utility card instead, so in terms of making the metagame a bit more open/diverse I don't know if it'd do all that much.

The issue is, any deck that has it's "End Board" with 2 or 3 Special Summons, will get absolutely slaughtered by giving their opponent a free Pot of Greed. Hell, outside of DPE pass, I can't think of anything that's doing anything of note under 4. And DPE pass is terrible.

This also ignores the fact that if you don't open Maxx C, they'll just Combo Fiesta anyway and can then Maxx C you on your turn. The card is terrible and we murdered it for a reason.

Also:
I don't entirely agree with this. Crossout yeah is pretty mostly just run on Maxx 'C' atm. That's not true of Ash Blossom, as that effect is live and effective against a lot of decks and is definitely not true of Called By The Grave, hence presumably why it's banned in the TCG. If you include Psy-Frame Gamma as a counter, than that's also live against enough targets that it sees play in formats where Maxx 'C' isn't legal, (plus it's not run to the same extent in MD as Ash and Called By are anyway).

Called By is Limited not banned.

[Rynjin]

Its an exceedingly unfair card that has been banned for years in both formats for a good reason. The fact it was ever legal, and still is, on MD is incredibly stupid. Ditto to VFD. What they were smoking when they saw it ruin both the TCG and the OCG and they decided to just let it live in MD I will never know.

I think it's notable that very, very strong decks (like Phantom Knights) are dropping Rhongo instead of seeking out a new way to summon him. And it's also notable that a lot of those decks (see: Phantom Knights again) only run Rhongo in the weaker, less consistent version of the deck. You're correct that the card's very powerful, but the conditions on summoning are too high to be practical without #75. And from what I recall the #75 ban is also a bit of future-proofing because the card has broken other XYZ cards as well.

A card being powerful on paper doesn't really matter if the conditions are too annoying. I say this as someone who runs Quintet Magician in a deck, I'm speaking from experience lol.

If you aren't prepared for Drytron, they will just destroy you and you won't get a turn. They have always been horrifically unfun and go in the same bin as Floodgate Eldlich. Not good, but ****ing obnoxious to play against. The same goes for Swordsoul, its like the Numerons of high tier.

Ehhh, let's be real. The Yugioh meta is such that every half decent deck "destroys you and you don't get a turn". That's just how the game works. Unless you're a dedicated going second deck with a trillion boardbreakers (like Numeron), if you los eteh coinflip it's basically over.

And the reason their showing is so bad is because the entire meta is teched out to slaughter them, explicitly because they are obnoxious if you don't. At minimum Statue should have been hit on the last list but Konami refuses to actually hit obnoxious stuff. Like Eldliches pile of Floodgates.

Which isn't even good! Synchro Lich is better!

People aren't really teched much for specifically Floo. I know some people are running Droll & Lock Bird for them, and have swapped Gameciel for Gadarla as the Kaiju du jour, but those are very minor deck changes overall. Floo is simply not a very consistent deck, and they brick about 40% of the time. They're also extremely easy to disrupt with common handtraps everybody runs like Ash Blossom and Infinite Impermanence. If you negate Robina or Eglen (if the map is up), they fold. If you can get in under Barrier statue and Apex Avian, they fold.

Their main super annoying tech was Vanity's Emptiness...which is now banneroni'd.

They are nowhere near comparable to Eldlich, which runs counters for basically everything. And they WERE actually hit pretty hard for the new banlist. Imperial Order is now banned, which gives them less cancer overall. Skill Drain is now at 2 instead of 3, dropping consistency. And the BIGGEST deal...Pot of Prosperity to 1 massively nerfs their consistency. And Floowandereeze's as well for that matter.

After the new banlist I'd be shocked if you saw Floo more than once in a blue moon.

The issue is, any deck that has it's "End Board" with 2 or 3 Special Summons, will get absolutely slaughtered by giving their opponent a free Pot of Greed. Hell, outside of DPE pass, I can't think of anything that's doing anything of note under 4. And DPE pass is terrible.

This also ignores the fact that if you don't open Maxx C, they'll just Combo Fiesta anyway and can then Maxx C you on your turn. The card is terrible and we murdered it for a reason.

Pretty much. The best "summon one thing pass" play I know of is Mechaba pass, because at least you get an omni-negate and banish, and they only go +0 off of it
. Alongside a couple of traps and quickplay spells (eg. Super Poly), as well as summon from hand on their turn effects (like Dogmatika Fleurdelis), your chances go from close to 0% to maybe...30% to not die?

Maxx "C" is nutty and the single biggest black mark on the Master Duel and OCG banlists.

[Mx.Silver]

The issue is, any deck that has it's "End Board" with 2 or 3 Special Summons, will get absolutely slaughtered by giving their opponent a free Pot of Greed. Hell, outside of DPE pass, I can't think of anything that's doing anything of note under 4. And DPE pass is terrible.

In high level competitive, yeah it is. My observation was that 'lower down the rungs', were less extreme decks are relegated, it's more survivable.

To be clear, I'm not begrudging any TCG players disliking the card: hard counters/silver bullets aren't fun in most circumstances, and Maxx is probably the strongest example of those to extended combo plays. I'm just pointing out that if the attitude to silver bullet answers is one of 'eh, it happens', which is mine (and I suspect may be how players of the OCG format tend to view the card,) then it's, I dunno, less of a pressing issue? Like, banning it doesn't seem like it would do a lot to the overal metagame - there aren't really any decks being kept down by it that would become viable if it was gone, and none of the high tier decks are relying on it to do well.

"that's not a strong reason for the card to be legal" - I agree, and I don't think there's much of an argument for unbanning it in the TCG but, and this is kind of the rub of the matter, MD is based on the OCG, where it's always been legal. Which means that the onus is on arguing why it needs to go, and it's fairly clear that 'isn't fun to lose to' is not the main consideration in how banlist decisions are made¹. So unless that playerbase also changes I don't know if that's going to happen.

This also ignores the fact that if you don't open Maxx C, they'll just Combo Fiesta anyway and can then Maxx C you on your turn.

Because this is true of pretty much all handtraps in the game: if you don't open them then they're likely useless. Now if you want to discuss design of handtraps as concept then, yeah, this is a relevant thing, but I don't know if that's a topic worth derailing a thread even more about, even if it is academically interesting.



¹or, looking at YGO in general, much of a consideration in overal design philosophy

[Blackhawk748]

"that's not a strong reason for the card to be legal" - I agree, and I don't think there's much of an argument for unbanning it in the TCG but, and this is kind of the rub of the matter, MD is based on the OCG, where it's always been legal. Which means that the onus is on arguing why it needs to go, and it's fairly clear that 'isn't fun to lose to' is not the main consideration in how banlist decisions are made¹. So unless that playerbase also changes I don't know if that's going to happen.

The argument against it is that it's incredibly sacky and unfun. The exact same argument everyone made against IO and Vanity's. Hell it's the same argument everyone made against Skill Drain and I still have no clue why that is at 3 in the TCG.

Like, there was a time when Drain was kinda fair and that was a decade and a half ago.

Because this is true of pretty much all handtraps in the game: if you don't open them then they're likely useless. Now if you want to discuss design of handtraps as concept then, yeah, this is a relevant thing, but I don't know if that's a topic worth derailing a thread even more about, even if it is academically interesting.

The difference between Maxx C and Ash is that you can play through Ash. Problably. Your end board is obviously impacted, but unless you're playing something like Plunder, your turn isn't over. Hell, my Scrap OTK deck can usually play through an Ash and that's only an ok deck. But when Maxx C drops, your turn is over unless your name is Floo or you are Mechaba Pass, and they still got a card cycle.

[Rynjin]

and it's fairly clear that 'isn't fun to lose to' is not the main consideration in how banlist decisions are made¹. So unless that playerbase also changes I don't know if that's going to happen.

I mean, the argument is not that "this isn't fun to lose to", the argument is that a single card should not have so much of an impact on the game that it wins the game if played and warps deckbuilding around countering it. Certainly, Ash Blossom is not run just for Maxx "C". That's just a happy coincidence.

But Crossout, Droll & Lock Bird, Called By (to a lesser extent)? These cards are all run in primary to block Maxx from winning the game.

Any singular card being meta-defining is an issue, especially if it is generic.

[Gold Leaf]

What decks do you guys have the most fun with when you play? I personally love to use a Junk deck, with maybe a tiny bit of Stardust (for combo potential) and Swordsoul (Chengying is just hilarious) mixed in. Sometimes I'll switch it up for a full Stardust deck, since all that really changes between the two is which spells you're packing and the contents of your Extra Deck.

[Blackhawk748]

What decks do you guys have the most fun with when you play? I personally love to use a Junk deck, with maybe a tiny bit of Stardust (for combo potential) and Swordsoul (Chengying is just hilarious) mixed in. Sometimes I'll switch it up for a full Stardust deck, since all that really changes between the two is which spells you're packing and the contents of your Extra Deck.

I played Scrap OTK, Ancient Warriors and now I'm playing Sub Terrors. No, not Guru control, actual Sub terrors.

[Rynjin]

I'm playing this abomination right now, it's pretty fun:

Spoiler: Invoked Dogmatika Relinquished

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I've also played a fair bit of Rose Adventure Tenyi (everyone needs at least one meta deck, after all), Adventure Infernobles (Sadly dead after the VFD ban), Witchcrafters, and a billion different Invoked variations, including an Invoked Branded/Despia deck I'm looking forward to reviving onc ethe new Branded support comes out soon.

I tried to play Time Thieves but they just...suck too much. Same with PSY-Frames to a lesser extent.

And the deck I got started on was Dragonmaids. An excellent starter deck for someone who last played Yugioh in like 2004.

[Mx.Silver]

What decks do you guys have the most fun with when you play? I personally love to use a Junk deck, with maybe a tiny bit of Stardust (for combo potential) and Swordsoul (Chengying is just hilarious) mixed in. Sometimes I'll switch it up for a full Stardust deck, since all that really changes between the two is which spells you're packing and the contents of your Extra Deck.

Have been enjoying Plunder Patrol a bit, when I've not queued up against VW or Floo, anyway. Unchained, the deck I started with, is also pretty fun - similar sort of 'off-turn summoning' approach, although different overal executions of it. Had quite a lot of fun with Subterror (guru control) during the EX 0 festival, and it's also been fun on standard modes too.
In terms of other stuff, Generaider's been surprisingly entertaining, bit inconsistent but it's interesting from a deckbuilding standpoint. I'm also apparently one of the eight people who enjoys Psy-Frame, which I've been tinkering around with on unranked.

At some point I'll probably end-up making Metaphys and going on a huge losing streak for old times sake, but I've managed to resist that urge so far

[NeoVid]

Been aeons since I actually played, but I got interested in YGO before it even got translated into English, then jumped in as soon as it released. Had a ton of fun with it for a couple of years, then they introduced Advanced Format, started banning cards for the first time and made my deck unplayable. I decided to hang in there, and put together a new, Advanced-legal deck inspired by the deck idea that got me into the game in the first place, but was impossible for US players to make, the Cyber-Stein deck. With a lot of effort and trading, I put together the coolest deck I'd ever seen, the Magical Scientist burn deck. Since it didn't deal its damage by attacking, if the full combo went off perfectly, you could deal 8000 damage before your opponent's first turn! It wasn't super reliable, but when it fired off, it was hilarious. I always wished we'd see somebody running that deck in the anime...

Then in the next wave of bans a month later, Magical Scientist was banned, I lost interest in the game, and haven't picked it up since.

I considered trying Master Duel, but when I tried to recreate my old decks, I discovered that a large number of the cards they were built around aren't even available in MD.

[Rynjin]

FTK decks are pretty much banned across the board because of...obvious reasons. Winning the coin flip already gives you a huge advantage. The SINGULAR drawback is supposed to be that you can't kill the opponent lol.

[Mx.Silver]

The Igknight/Cyber-Stein burn FTK deck does still exist in MD, although its combo is highly fragile so it's not terribly reliable. It's not that expensive to build though, iirc (the core combo requires 3 UR cards, one of which is Halqifibrax, the most popular combo enabler in the game).

[Jervis]

Man I need to get back to playing master duel, Thunder Dragon is just so fun