Talents--a parallel advancement track slanted in martials' favor. Feedback desired.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is an expansion of the Weapon Talent thing I've been working on for a while. The full document is here (google doc).

The idea is that everyone gains "Talents" at particular class levels. These Talents can be used to climb (very short) chains for either weapon groups or ability scores/skills. The benefits are mostly passive and/or "once per turn" (for the combat talents). The number gained is inversely proportional to the amount of casting your class+subclass grants--people without any Spellcasting (or Pact Magic) feature gain enough talents to fill out two talent chains and start a third (7 total over 20 levels, roughly 1/3 levels). Proper full casters (other than war cleric, valor bard, swords bard, and blade-boon warlocks) only gain 1 talent at level 7. Talents in a chain must be taken in order--the number is the number of talents that must be invested to gain that benefit. Benefits are cumulative within a chain.

Spoiler: Class table

Show

Class-based spell-slots (including sub-class and mystic arcana)	Class levels at which you gain talents
None	1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19
Up to 4th level spells (1/3 caster) + ranger	1, 5, 9, 13, 17
Up to 5th level spells (1/2 caster other than ranger)	3, 8, 13, 18
War cleric, valor bard, swords bard, Warlock (pact boon: blade only)	6, 12, 18
Up to 9th level spells (full caster + other warlocks)	7

Reasoning--casters get spells. Non-casters have more time/energy to learn other nifty things. Plus...non-casters deserve nice things.

Spoiler: Weapon Talents

Show

Note: These replace the weapon feats in their entirety--CBE, SS, PAM, GWM, Dual-Wielder. Mage Slayer is superseded by Mage Bane talent group.
The full list of weapon groups is in the document. Not going to put it here.

Chopping Weapons
1. Once per turn when you hit with an attack from a chopping weapon, you can choose to reroll the damage dice and take the higher result.
2. When you attack a creature with a chopping weapon and have advantage on the attack, you score a critical hit on a 19 or 20. If you have the Improved Critical feature, the range for critical hits increases by one instead.
3. Once per turn when you take the Attack action and hit with a chopping weapon, you can cause an additional creature within your weapon reach to take damage equal to twice the ability modifier used for the attack.

Bow
1. You are no longer at disadvantage on attacks up to the far range or against prone targets when you use a bow.
2. Once per turn when you hit with a bow, you can force the target to make a CON save against a DC of 8 + your Dexterity modifier + Proficiency. On a failed save the target takes 1 damage for every 5 feet they move until the end of their next turn.
3. Once per turn when you take the attack action with a bow you can choose to attempt to strike a vital area. If you do so, make the attack as normal but the target’s AC increases by 5 against this attack. If it hits, choose one of the following effects:
3a.The damage dealt increases by two of the weapon’s damage dice.
3b. The target cannot take any actions or reactions until the end of its next turn.
3c. The target’s speed is zero until the end of its next turn.

Crossbow
1 You are no longer at disadvantage when making ranged weapon attacks with a crossbow when an enemy is within 5 feet of you.
2 You ignore the loading property of crossbows. Once per turn when you attack with a crossbow, the bolt pierces many targets. Make an attack roll and compare it individually against the AC of all creatures on the line connecting you and a target within range. Targets that are hit take the normal damage from the attack.
3 Cover is reduced by one step-- ¾ cover to half-cover, and half cover to no cover when you use a crossbow.

Crushing
1. Once per turn when you hit with a crushing weapon, the target’s movement speed is reduced by half of its original value until the end of your next turn. This speed reduction does not stack if the target is hit by multiple people with this talent or with itself. Additionally, one-handed crushing weapons count as finesse weapons for you and you can apply sneak attack damage (if you have that from a class feature) to attacks made with them.
2. Once per turn when you hit an enemy with a crushing weapon you can take the Shove action against them without using an action and without the normal size restrictions. The target has disadvantage on the opposed ability check to resist this action.
3. Once per turn when you hit an enemy with a crushing weapon, you can force them to make a Constitution saving throw against a DC of 8 + your attack modifier for the attack. On a failure, the target is dazed (see Conditions) until the end of their next turn.

Polearm
1 When you wield a polearm you can use features and spells that involve a melee weapon attack out to the full reach of your weapon.
2. While wielding a polearm, you can use two-weapon fighting with the back end of the polearm as if it were a club.
3. If you have moved on the same turn before hitting a target with an attack using a polearm, the target takes 1 additional damage for every 5’ you moved. Movement does not stack between attacks for determining the additional damage–only consider the movement since the last attack.

Heavy Blade
1 Whenever you score a critical hit with a heavy blade, you can use your bonus action to make an attack against another creature within your reach.
2 Whenever you make an opportunity attack with a heavy blade, you have advantage on the attack roll.
3 When you hit with an attack using a heavy blade and deal less than half of the maximum damage (before applying resistance or immunity), you instead deal half the maximum damage (before applying resistance or immunity).

Light Blade
1 You gain +1 AC while two-weapon fighting with light blades and can use two-weapon fighting with any light blades.
2. Once per turn when you hit with a light blade and had advantage on the attack, you can choose to maximize the weapon damage dealt.
3. Once per turn when you attack with a light blade, you can choose to have advantage on the attack roll and the damage dealt increases by an amount equal to the ability modifier used for the attack. This stacks with rank 2.

Throwing
1 Both normal and far ranges of any Thrown weapon are doubled and you may draw any number of thrown weapons in conjunction with the action used to throw them. You ignore the loading property of slings. Additionally, you may attack an extra time when you take the Attack action with thrown weapons.
2 You are no longer at disadvantage when making weapon attacks with thrown weapons when an enemy is within 5 feet of you.
3 Thrown weapons deal double the damage dice. Nets deal 2d4 damage.

Assassin
1 You gain proficiency with the poisoner’s kit. You can create poisons for 1/4 the cost (25gp for a basic vial) and can apply it as a bonus action. A single vial of poison can coat 1 non-throwing weapon, 3 throwing weapons or arrows/bolts, or up to 10 blowgun darts. The DC of your poisons increases by your proficiency modifier.
2 Your dagger’s sheath and blowdart’s quiver now contain clever poison dispensing mechanisms. When you hit an enemy with a melee attack with a poisoned dagger, roll a d20. The poison only dissipates on a roll of 10 or lower. You can coat up to 20 blowgun darts with a single dose of poison. All poisons you apply now last until used.
3 When you score a critical hit with a poisoned assassin weapon, also double the dice of the poison damage dealt.

Gladiator
1 The damage dealt by gladiator weapons increase by one die size; nets deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage and no longer have disadvantage on the attack roll if made from within 5 feet of the target. Shields count as 1d4 bludgeoning weapons with the light property as long as your other hand is not carrying a weapon or has a gladiator weapon in it.
2 When you are targeted by a weapon attack from within 5 feet and are armed with a gladiator weapon, you can use your reaction to try to trap the weapon. Your AC against that attack increases by 5; if this causes the attack to miss, you can immediately attempt to disarm the opponent by making a Strength (Athletics) check against their attack roll. If it succeeds, the weapon (if held in a hand) lands five feet away in a random direction; if it was a natural weapon, the target has disadvantage on attacks until the end of its next turn.
3. The attempt to trap the weapon only consumes your reaction if it succeeds

Mage Bane
1. Enemies within your reach have disadvantage on Concentration checks.
2. When a creature within your reach casts a spell, you can use your reaction to attempt to disrupt the spell. Make a weapon attack against them. If the attack hits, the caster takes the normal damage and must make a Concentration check even if the spell being cast did not require it. On a failed check, the spell fails.
3. When you hit with the disrupting attack and the target fails the saving throw, they suffer an additional effect based on the damage type your weapon deals:
Piercing: The target takes additional damage equal to the level of spell being cast.
Slashing: The target loses use of the limb that proved the material or somatic components of the disrupted spell until the end of their next turn.
Bludgeoning: the target cannot cast spells with verbal components or speak until the end of their next turn

Natural
1 Your natural weapons and unarmed strikes can use either Strength or Dexterity.
2 You can use natural weapons as if they were light weapons held in your hands for two-weapon fighting. Your unarmed strikes count for spells and abilities that require attacks with weapons (e.g. Improved Divine Smite).
3 Once on each of your turns when you hit with an unarmed strike or natural weapon attack, you can add your proficiency bonus to the damage dealt.

Conditions:
Dazed: A dazed creature can either take an action or bonus action or move on their turn. If they take an action that involves making an attack, they can make only one attack no matter how many they would normally be able to make.

Spoiler: Ability Talents

Show

These replace the feats Resilient, Skill Expert, Actor, and Keen Mind in their entirety. If a talent grants “proficiency//expertise”, that means that if you don’t already have proficiency, you gain proficiency. If you do have proficiency, you gain expertise. If you have expertise from your class, you must choose another skill under that same ability; you cannot stack expertise.

Strength
Skills: Athletics.
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in Athletics. Additionally, you count as one size larger for determining how much you can carry and lift. This stacks with Powerful Build and similar features.
2 You gain proficiency in Strength saving throws. If you already have it, you make Strength saving throws at advantage. Additionally, you make Strength (Athletics) checks to grapple and resist/escape grapples at advantage.
3 You gain the following benefits:
a You gain a swim speed and a climb speed equal to your walking speed and can climb and swim without making checks in more extreme circumstances than normal. When you jump, the base distance you can cover is doubled. You count as having a running start after moving only 5’ instead of 10’.
b You also count as one size larger for grappling and shoving.

Dexterity
Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in a Dexterity skill of your choice.
2 You gain proficiency in Dexterity saving throws. If you already have it, you make Dexterity saving throws at advantage.
3 You gain the following benefits:
a At the beginning of combat before taking your turn in initiative, you can move up to your speed. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
b You have resistance to falling damage and no longer fall prone after falling any distance.

Constitution
Skills: None
1 You are proficient in death saving throws.
2 You gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws. If you already have it, you make Constitution saving throws at advantage.
3 You gain the following benefits
a You are immune to the poisoned condition.
b You recover all levels of exhaustion on a short rest.

Intelligence
Skills: Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, Religion
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in an Intelligence skill of your choice. Additionally, you learn a language of your choice.
2 You gain proficiency in Intelligence saving throws. If you already have it, you make Intelligence saving throws at advantage. Additionally, you gain proficiency//expertise in another Intelligence skill of your choice.
3 You gain the following benefits
a Given 10 minutes of study, you can understand the gist of any written language, even if you don’t understand the details. After listening to a spoken language for 10 minutes, you can make yourself understood and understand the basics of the language.
b You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month.
c You have advantage on Intelligence (Investigation) checks.

Wisdom
Skills: Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in a Wisdom skill of your choice.
2 You gain proficiency in Wisdom saving throws. If you already have it, you make Wisdom saving throws at advantage.
3 You gain the following benefits:
a You make Wisdom (Perception) checks to avoid being surprised at advantage, as do allies within 30’ of you that can hear you.
b If you spend 30 seconds studying a crowd or gathering of people, you gain a sense of their mood and intuit what approach to conversation will either not work well (land mines) or will work especially well (weak points)
c After your first turn in combat, you learn the vulnerabilities and resistances/immunities (if any) of the foe you are facing as long as you can see them.

Charisma
Skills: Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in a Charisma skill of your choice.
2 You gain proficiency in Charisma saving throws. If you already have it, you make Charisma saving throws at advantage. In addition, when you make a Charisma check to socially influence someone and roll a 1 on the d20, you can reroll the die but must take the second result.
3 You gain the following benefits:
a After talking to someone for one minute, they are treated as one step friendlier (hostile -> indifferent -> friendly) for the duration of the conversation. Afterwards, they return to whatever attitude they would have had as a result of the conversation.
b Failing a Charisma check to socially influence someone no longer causes them to potentially dislike you more. You still fail (don’t get what you want), but otherwise aren’t penalized. Limit one such teflon coating per person interacted with. For example, imagine that trying to persuade the king to give up his crown for a copper is an automatic failure and will, under normal conditions, cause him to become hostile to you. With this talent, you still automatically fail, but he brushes it off as a bad joke instead of trying to have you imprisoned. The first time. After that, on your head be it if you try again.
c You can mimic anyone’s voice you’ve heard for more than 1 minute, as well as their mannerisms.

Changelog v2 (9/4/2022):
-- total rewrite of chopping, crushing (including working in the Thug talents as core), and light blade. Rewrote Bow substantially. Reworded Crossbow #2. Reordered Polearm #2 and #3, rewrote the new #3.
-- slight nerf of Heavy Blade #2.
-- buff of thrown
-- reworded assassin #3
-- Split gladiator into Trapper and Mage Bane. The latter is not weapon group dependent, but is basically Mage Slayer+++. Because Mage Slayer sucks.
-- Tweak and reordering of Strength, adding an "additionally" to the first rank.
-- Reworked Intelligence #2 (the additionally clause) and #3a

[Witty Username]

I take it not having a -5 attack/+10 damage feature was intentional?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I take it not having a -5 attack/+10 damage feature was intentional?

Right. If I'm going to put that in, it would be as a class feature or a default function of specific weapons. I don't like hiding numbers behind optional things.

As a class feature, it'd be something like:
Barbarians can do it with any melee weapon at level 7 or so. Fighters can choose to do it with bows or with heavy/2h weapons from about the same level or choose something else for TWF/SnB. Rangers get it with bows.

[Talamare]

Definitely going to give this a read.

[Talamare]

Chopping
Awful, This is like GWM mentality but lamer and less reliable unless you're basically directly cancelling it with advantage
Also, you're invoking a save and everyone needs to remember a damage at a later date... This is just terrible for gameplay flow

Bow, Throwing, and Crossbow losing Disadvantage is just boring. Make it only the Crossbow

Crossbow piercing shot is cool, but wouldn't it be easier if it just straight up said it makes an attack each creature in a line.

Crusher, does it stack with you hitting multiple times?
Crushing Shove, man doesn't even use a bonus action? You don't even revamp Shield Master... Ouch

Thug, hate it. Every bit of it

Polearm, I see you're undoing the GFB nerf... and randomly also nerfing Polearms in general... Weird choice considering all the other weapons are getting massive buffs

Heavy Blade, jesus christ. Found your favorite! Talk about OP compared to all the other stuff

Light 1, WHY?! So boring. Just +1 AC if you're dual wielding. Why are you limiting people
Light 2, what does this even mean? When you roll 1d4, you can reroll upto 6 dice that don't exist! What are you even talking about
Light 3, "when you attack, you pull out an alchemy kit and brew a poison" bruh what

Throwing, needs a whole lot more than this to come even close to viable

Sin3 needs a rewording

Gladiator is way too busy, its a nice basic idea, but definitely needs more refining. Maybe split it into 2 different Feats

Natural Weapons, you should also include that your Natural Weapons can be used to make Unarmed Strikes.
I personally don't like dealing "Prof damage", I would personally just let them double the number of die the natural weapon has...so 1d6 becomes 2d6

[Selion]

This is an expansion of the Weapon Talent thing I've been working on for a while. The full document is here (google doc).

The idea is that everyone gains "Talents" at particular class levels. These Talents can be used to climb (very short) chains for either weapon groups or ability scores/skills. The benefits are mostly passive and/or "once per turn" (for the combat talents). The number gained is inversely proportional to the amount of casting your class+subclass grants--people without any Spellcasting (or Pact Magic) feature gain enough talents to fill out two talent chains and start a third (7 total over 20 levels, roughly 1/3 levels). Proper full casters (other than war cleric, valor bard, swords bard, and blade-boon warlocks) only gain 1 talent at level 7. Talents in a chain must be taken in order--the number is the number of talents that must be invested to gain that benefit. Benefits are cumulative within a chain.

Spoiler: Class table

Show

Class-based spell-slots (including sub-class and mystic arcana)	Class levels at which you gain talents
None	1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19
Up to 4th level spells (1/3 caster) + ranger	1, 5, 9, 13, 17
Up to 5th level spells (1/2 caster other than ranger)	3, 8, 13, 18
War cleric, valor bard, swords bard, Warlock (pact boon: blade only)	6, 12, 18
Up to 9th level spells (full caster + other warlocks)	7

Reasoning--casters get spells. Non-casters have more time/energy to learn other nifty things. Plus...non-casters deserve nice things.

Spoiler: Weapon Talents

Show

Note: These replace the weapon feats in their entirety--CBE, SS, PAM, GWM, Dual-Wielder.
The full list of weapon groups is in the document. Not going to put it here.

Chopping Weapons
1 You can reroll any 1s or 2s on a damage roll made with an axe but must take the second result. Whenever you score a critical hit with an axe, roll an additional damage dice and add it to the damage done.
2 Once per turn when you take the Attack action while wielding an axe you can choose to make one of the attacks at disadvantage. If you hit with this attack, it deals 2 extra dice of damage.
3 Once per turn when you hit with an axe, the target must make a CON save against a DC of 8 + your Strength modifier + Proficiency. On a failed save they take additional damage equal to the damage dealt by the triggering attack at the beginning of their next turn.

Bow
1 You are no longer at disadvantage when making ranged weapon attacks with a bow when an enemy is within 5 feet of you.
2 Once per turn when you hit with a bow, you can force the target to make a CON save against a DC of 8 + your Dexterity modifier + Proficiency. On a failed save the target takes 1 damage for every 5 feet they move until the end of their next turn.
3 You are no longer at disadvantage on attacks up to the far range or against prone targets when you use a bow.

Crossbow
1 You are no longer at disadvantage when making ranged weapon attacks with a crossbow when an enemy is within 5 feet of you.
2 You ignore the loading property of crossbows. Once per turn when you attack with a crossbow, the bolt continues past the target. Make an attack roll against the first enemy beyond your original target on the 5-foot-wide line between you and your target extending out to the range of the weapon. They have half cover on this attack. If you hit with your first attack, this second attack deals half damage; otherwise it deals normal damage.
3 Cover is reduced by one step-- ¾ cover to half-cover, and half cover to no cover when you use a crossbow.

Crushing
1 Once per turn when you hit with a crushing weapon, the target’s movement speed is reduced by half of its original value until the end of your next turn. This speed reduction does not stack if the target is hit by multiple people with this feat.
2 When you miss with an attack using a crushing weapon, you deal bludgeoning damage equal to your Strength modifier to the target.
3 Once per turn when you hit an enemy with a crushing weapon you can take the Shove action against them without spending an action and without the normal size restrictions. The target has disadvantage on the opposed ability check to resist this action.

Crushing (Thug)
1 One-handed crushing weapons count as finesse weapons for you and you can apply sneak attack damage (if you have that from a class feature) to attacks made with them.
2 Once per turn when you hit with a crushing weapon, the target’s movement speed is reduced by half of its original value until the end of your next turn. This speed reduction does not stack if the target is hit by multiple people with this talent.
3 Once per turn when you hit with a crushing weapon and have advantage on the attack or an ally within 5 feet of the target who is not incapacitated, you can force the target to make a CON save against a DC of 8 + your choice of Strength or Dexterity modifiers + your proficiency bonus. On a failed save, the creature cannot take reactions until the end of your next turn and can either move or take an action, not both. If they attack, they can only make one attack no matter how many they normally could make.

Polearm
1 When you wield a polearm you can use features and spells that involve a melee weapon attack out to the full reach of your weapon.
2 When an enemy enters your reach while you wield a polearm, you can use your reaction to make an attack against them. If you do, you have advantage on this attack.
3 While wielding a polearm, you can use two-weapon fighting with the back end of the polearm as if it were a club.

Heavy Blade
1 Whenever you score a critical hit with a heavy blade, you can use your bonus action to make an attack against another creature within your reach.
2 Whenever you make an opportunity attack with a heavy blade, you have advantage on the attack roll and the damage dealt increases by an amount equal to your proficiency bonus.
3 When you hit with an attack using a heavy blade and deal less than half of the maximum damage (before applying resistance or immunity), you instead deal half the maximum damage (before applying resistance or immunity).

Light Blade
1 You can use two-weapon fighting with a rapier and a dagger. If you do, you gain +1 AC and opportunity attacks against you are at disadvantage.
2 When you hit with a light blade and roll less than half the maximum damage, you may reroll a number of damage dice equal to your proficiency modifier and take the second
3 Choose one of:
a) Once per turn when you attack with a light blade, you can choose to have advantage on the attack roll and the damage dealt increases by an amount equal to your proficiency bonus.
b) You can create poison for 1/4 the cost (25gp for a basic vial) and can apply it as a bonus action. A single vial of poison can coat 1 non-throwing weapon, 3 throwing weapons or arrows/bolts, or up to 10 blowgun darts. The DC of your poisons increases by your proficiency modifier.

Throwing
1 Both normal and far ranges of any Thrown weapon are doubled and you may draw any number of thrown weapons in conjunction with the action used to throw them. You ignore the loading property of slings.
2 You are no longer at disadvantage when making weapon attacks with thrown weapons when an enemy is within 5 feet of you.
3 Once per turn you gain advantage on both attack roll and damage done (if any) when using a thrown weapon. Attacks using nets deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage.

Assassin
1 You gain proficiency with the poisoner’s kit. You can create poisons for 1/4 the cost (25gp for a basic vial) and can apply it as a bonus action. A single vial of poison can coat 1 non-throwing weapon, 3 throwing weapons or arrows/bolts, or up to 10 blowgun darts. The DC of your poisons increases by your proficiency modifier.
2 Your dagger’s sheath and blowdart’s quiver now contain clever poison dispensing mechanisms. When you hit an enemy with a melee attack with a poisoned dagger, roll a d20. The poison only dissipates on a roll of 10 or lower. You can coat up to 20 blowgun darts with a single dose of poison. All poisons you apply now last until used.
3 When you score a critical hit with a poisoned assassin weapon that requires the target to fail a saving throw, roll double the poison dice as well. (Intent: non-save poisons already double. This applies to save-based ones as well).

Gladiator
1 The damage dealt by gladiator weapons increase by one die size; nets deal 1d4 bludgeoning damage and no longer have disadvantage on the attack roll if made from within 5 feet of the target. Shields count as 1d4 bludgeoning weapons with the light property as long as your other hand is not carrying a weapon or has a gladiator weapon in it.
2 Choose one of the following:
a When you are targeted by a weapon attack from within 5 feet and are armed with a trident or net, you can use your reaction to try to trap the weapon. Your AC against that attack increases by 5; if this causes the attack to miss, you can immediately attempt to disarm the opponent by making a Strength (Athletics) check against their attack roll. If it succeeds, the weapon (if held in a hand) lands five feet away in a random direction; if it was a natural weapon, the target has disadvantage on attacks until the end of its next turn.
b When an opponent you can see casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a weapon attack against them with a whip or shield you are wielding as long as they are within your reach. If this attack hits, the spell fails.
3 Choose either to take the other option from level 2 or upgrade the option you chose:
option a) The attempt to trap the weapon only consumes your reaction if it succeeds.
option b) If the special attack hits, the target cannot cast spells with verbal components or speak until the end of their next turn.

Natural
1 Your natural weapons and unarmed strikes can use either Strength or Dexterity.
2 You can use natural weapons as if they were light weapons held in your hands for two-weapon fighting. Your unarmed strikes count for spells and abilities that require attacks with weapons (e.g. Improved Divine Smite).
3 Once on each of your turns when you hit with an unarmed strike or natural weapon attack, you can add your proficiency bonus to the damage dealt.

Spoiler: Ability Talents

Show

These replace the feats Resilient, Skill Expert, Actor, and Keen Mind in their entirety. If a talent grants “proficiency//expertise”, that means that if you don’t already have proficiency, you gain proficiency. If you do have proficiency, you gain expertise. If you have expertise from your class, you must choose another skill under that same ability; you cannot stack expertise.

Strength
Skills: Athletics.
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in Athletics.
2 You gain proficiency in Strength saving throws. If you already have it, you make Strength saving throws at advantage. Additionally, you make Strength (Athletics) checks to grapple and resist/escape grapples at advantage.
3 You gain the following benefits:
a You gain a swim speed and a climb speed equal to your walking speed and can climb and swim without making checks in more extreme circumstances than normal. When you jump, the base distance you can cover is doubled. You count as having a running start after moving only 5’ instead of 10’.
b You can grapple/shove creatures up to two sizes larger instead of only one. If an ability would both grapple and restrain you, you are only grappled, not restrained by it.
c The amount you can carry is doubled (30xSTR normal, 60xSTR drag/push). This is cumulative with Powerful Build (etc).

Dexterity
Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in a Dexterity skill of your choice.
2 You gain proficiency in Dexterity saving throws. If you already have it, you make Dexterity saving throws at advantage.
3 You gain the following benefits:
a At the beginning of combat before taking your turn in initiative, you can move up to your speed. This movement does not provoke opportunity attacks.
b You have resistance to falling damage and no longer fall prone after falling any distance.

Constitution
Skills: None
1 You are proficient in death saving throws.
2 You gain proficiency in Constitution saving throws. If you already have it, you make Constitution saving throws at advantage.
3 You gain the following benefits
a You are immune to the poisoned condition.
b You recover all levels of exhaustion on a short rest.

Intelligence
Skills: Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, Religion
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in an Intelligence skill of your choice. Additionally, you learn a language of your choice.
2 You gain proficiency in Intelligence saving throws. If you already have it, you make Intelligence saving throws at advantage. Additionally, you make all checks against illusions at advantage.
3 You gain the following benefits
a Given an hour of study, you can decipher any mundanely encoded script and determine the purpose of sigils and runes. You can understand the gist of any written language, even if you don’t understand the details.
b You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month.
c You have advantage on Intelligence (Investigation) checks.

Wisdom
Skills: Animal Handling, Insight, Medicine, Perception, Survival
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in a Wisdom skill of your choice.
2 You gain proficiency in Wisdom saving throws. If you already have it, you make Wisdom saving throws at advantage.
3 You gain the following benefits:
a You make Wisdom (Perception) checks to avoid being surprised at advantage, as do allies within 30’ of you that can hear you.
b If you spend 30 seconds studying a crowd or gathering of people, you gain a sense of their mood and intuit what approach to conversation will either not work well (land mines) or will work especially well (weak points)
c After your first turn in combat, you learn the vulnerabilities and resistances/immunities (if any) of the foe you are facing as long as you can see them.

Charisma
Skills: Deception, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in a Charisma skill of your choice.
2 You gain proficiency in Charisma saving throws. If you already have it, you make Charisma saving throws at advantage. In addition, when you make a Charisma check to socially influence someone and roll a 1 on the d20, you can reroll the die but must take the second result.
3 You gain the following benefits:
a After talking to someone for one minute, they are treated as one step friendlier (hostile -> indifferent -> friendly) for the duration of the conversation. Afterwards, they return to whatever attitude they would have had as a result of the conversation.
b Failing a Charisma check to socially influence someone no longer causes them to potentially dislike you more. You still fail (don’t get what you want), but otherwise aren’t penalized. Limit one such teflon coating per person interacted with. For example, imagine that trying to persuade the king to give up his crown for a copper is an automatic failure and will, under normal conditions, cause him to become hostile to you. With this talent, you still automatically fail, but he brushes it off as a bad joke instead of trying to have you imprisoned. The first time. After that, on your head be it if you try again.
c You can mimic anyone’s voice you’ve heard for more than 1 minute, as well as their mannerisms.

Another possible route in the same direction (i had the idea in this post https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...vel-martials):
What if we moved the +x bonuses from weapons to +2x bonus to ability scores, and these abilities were unlocked just reaching abilities thresholds?

Example:
Berserker Axe

Weapon (any axe), rare (requires attunement)

You gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this magic weapon While you are attuned to this weapon you have a bonus of +2 Strength. In addition, while you are attuned to this weapon, your hit point maximum increases by 1 for each level you have attained.
[...]


Strength
Skills: Athletics.
1 You gain proficiency//expertise in Athletics.
2 You gain proficiency in Strength saving throws. If you already have it,
[STR 19]you make Strength saving throws at advantage. Additionally, you make Strength (Athletics) checks to grapple and resist/escape grapples at advantage.
3 You gain the following benefits:
[STR 21] You gain a swim speed and a climb speed equal to your walking speed and can climb and swim without making checks in more extreme circumstances than normal. When you jump, the base distance you can cover is doubled. You count as having a running start after moving only 5’ instead of 10’.
[STR 23] You can grapple/shove creatures up to two sizes larger instead of only one. If an ability would both grapple and restrain you, you are only grappled, not restrained by it.
[STR 25] The amount you can carry is doubled (30xSTR normal, 60xSTR drag/push). This is cumulative with Powerful Build (etc).

[PhoenixPhyre]

Another possible route in the same direction (i had the idea in this post https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...vel-martials):
What if we moved the +x bonuses from weapons to +2x bonus to ability scores, and these abilities were unlocked just reaching abilities thresholds?

I don't like tying things to magic items. Because then you're back to the "I'm not cool, I'm just a vessel for my cool sword" routine from 3e and 4e. And now you've pigeonholed all STR fighters into the STR chain, instead of (as the point is), to be able to branch out. And unless you make +X casting-stat items (which inflate the power of casters tremendously), those casting-stat chains just can't ever get used at all.

Chopping
1. Awful, This is like GWM mentality but lamer and less reliable unless you're basically directly cancelling it with advantage
2. Also, you're invoking a save and everyone needs to remember a damage at a later date... This is just terrible for gameplay flow

3. Bow, Throwing, and Crossbow losing Disadvantage is just boring. Make it only the Crossbow

4. Crossbow piercing shot is cool, but wouldn't it be easier if it just straight up said it makes an attack each creature in a line.

5. Crusher, does it stack with you hitting multiple times?
6. Crushing Shove, man doesn't even use a bonus action? You don't even revamp Shield Master... Ouch

7. Thug, hate it. Every bit of it

8. Polearm, I see you're undoing the GFB nerf... and randomly also nerfing Polearms in general... Weird choice considering all the other weapons are getting massive buffs

9. Heavy Blade, jesus christ. Found your favorite! Talk about OP compared to all the other stuff

10. Light 1, WHY?! So boring. Just +1 AC if you're dual wielding. Why are you limiting people
11. Light 2, what does this even mean? When you roll 1d4, you can reroll upto 6 dice that don't exist! What are you even talking about
12. Light 3, "when you attack, you pull out an alchemy kit and brew a poison" bruh what

13. Throwing, needs a whole lot more than this to come even close to viable

14. Sin3 needs a rewording

15. Gladiator is way too busy, its a nice basic idea, but definitely needs more refining. Maybe split it into 2 different Feats

16. Natural Weapons, you should also include that your Natural Weapons can be used to make Unarmed Strikes.
I personally don't like dealing "Prof damage", I would personally just let them double the number of die the natural weapon has...so 1d6 becomes 2d6

General thoughts--the goal for the "big three" melee weapons was that
Axes are high damage but not much else. Maybe with some "aoe-likes"? Crushing weapons are specialist/status effect weapons. Less about damage, more about shaping the battlefield. Heavy blades are kinda a middle ground, focusing on reliability and opportunity attacks (so the tank-favored one). I've probably balanced them badly at doing that. But that's the goal I think I want to go for.

1. I agree this one's not great. Probably just make it "advantage on damage" (roll all the dice again if you want, take the higher). I think I'll change rank 2 to be "once per turn, deal X (not decided yet) damage to an adjacent creature when you attack with a chopping weapon." Sort of an always-on cleave effect.
2. Yeah, too fiddly. Needs rework.

3. Agreed. But I was running low on ideas =)
4. Probably right.

5. It's once per turn. So it can't stack with itself unless you can somehow proc it off turn. Which is a loophole I'll close. Once on each of your turns.
6. I think I was going to add Shield Master (or that bullet point anyway) to the "yeah, ignore this" list. This is supposed to be the way you access that bonus shove thing.

7. It's basically crushing, but modified for a more roguish approach. Yeah, rank one is pure QoL so rogues can even possibly benefit from it. Rank 2 is normal crushing's rank 1. Rank 3 can be simplified by invoking the new Slowed condition (because that wording is exactly slow, the spell).

8 Polearms need a nerf relative to PAM. Because that was really really distorting the weapon choices. Rank 1 needs some love. Rank 3 is just wording PAM's bonus action attack like it should have been all along, instead of this weird "you get the benefits of the TWF style without actually needing it" thing.

9. Probably. Especially rank 1.

10. Agreed.
11. That was intended for rogues, but yeah. Not so great. Needs rework.
12. I think you misread this one--those are choices you make when you take the talent. Either you get a 1/turn boost OR you're better (passively) at poisons. You're not making poison once per turn.

13. Probably. This one was more intended as QoL so someone might pick up rank 1 or 2 with extra talents. Say a barbarian who wants to throw javelins but doesn't want to suck quite as much with them. I don't think I had it pegged as a primary fighting type.

14. I could probably word that better, yes. Is the actual effect (meaning you get double dice on poison as well as regular) any good? Probably not at that tier though.

15. Yeah. I wanted to throw in a grab-bag of stuff no one ever uses, but it probably needs to be split up.

16. I think I was taking that as baseline. Didn't they change that in Tasha's or something? I forget. If not, yeah, it needs to be added.

Any thoughts on the Ability Talents section?

[Talamare]

Ability Talents were a big bag of blah

It's like -nod nod- seems fine -nod nod-

Uh, I don't personally like Int3a. The same as I don't personally like spells that do similar. Basically, it says that this feat should automatically solve the Puzzle. I guess you threw in the word 'mundanely' but now the table is just arguing what does 'mundanely' even means. It's like 'fine', again its a personal thing.

Cha's 'In addition' line feels like some bull. Why it's the only one that gets an in addition... I'm actually fine with the effect, but for the sake of fairness, I would just make it a bullet point.

Man, this is how much I'm nitpicking, because its so -nod nod- seems fine -nod nod-


Actually, not that I go back over onto STR. Same about its 'in addition' line
Also, newDnD is about to change grappling, soooo... but...

a You make Strength (Athletics) checks to grapple and resist/escape grapples at advantage. You can grapple/shove creatures up to two sizes larger instead of only one.
b You gain a swim speed and a climb speed equal to your walking speed and can climb and swim without making checks in more extreme circumstances than normal.
c When you jump, the base distance you can cover is doubled. You always count as having a running start. You can reduce any fall height by your STR score.
d Your carry capacity increases by 200.


I made carry capacity flat to encourage this feat being good on technically anyone who uses it. 200 = 13 STR

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ability Talents were a big bag of blah

It's like -nod nod- seems fine -nod nod-

Uh, I don't personally like Int3a. The same as I don't personally like spells that do similar. Basically, it says that this feat should automatically solve the Puzzle. I guess you threw in the word 'mundanely' but now the table is just arguing what does 'mundanely' even means. It's like 'fine', again its a personal thing.

Cha's 'In addition' line feels like some bull. Why it's the only one that gets an in addition... I'm actually fine with the effect, but for the sake of fairness, I would just make it a bullet point.

Man, this is how much I'm nitpicking, because its so -nod nod- seems fine -nod nod-


Actually, not that I go back over onto STR. Same about its 'in addition' line
Also, newDnD is about to change grappling, soooo... but...

a You make Strength (Athletics) checks to grapple and resist/escape grapples at advantage. You can grapple/shove creatures up to two sizes larger instead of only one.
b You gain a swim speed and a climb speed equal to your walking speed and can climb and swim without making checks in more extreme circumstances than normal.
c When you jump, the base distance you can cover is doubled. You always count as having a running start. You can reduce any fall height by your STR score.
d Your carry capacity increases by 200.


I made carry capacity flat to encourage this feat being good on technically anyone who uses it. 200 = 13 STR

I tried to add "in addition" lines to one or the other rank 2 Ability talents for those that aren't the 3 Big Saves. Because Int, STR, and CHA saves just don't come up that often. And it's boring if everyone just goes "yeah, I want WIS/CON save proficiency and beelines for those.

As for Int 3a, I find that coded messages like that are only one small piece of the actual challenge. And it basically compresses the timeframe from "if I spend 10x as long, I'll eventually succeed" (since reading coded messages rarely involves much immediate pressure). It doesn't really solve word puzzles because there the words are obvious, but the relevance is hidden. I was thinking of scrambled messages more than anything--if you use a shared-meaning code, it's not going to help. Because it gives you the meaning of the words, which aren't in doubt with "The blue monkey flies at midnight". But if it's encrypted and so "the password to the safe house is Correct Horse Battery Staple" is encoded as "d901b296aa300dfbd4fcef1e700afb5f3b44ef58", you'd be able to break that code and reconstruct the plain text. But you don't get more than the plain text meaning. Plus, I guess I don't use word-based puzzles qua puzzles very much. Because they're very much 4th-wall breaks. Because they only work in English (or whatever language the players are speaking), which isn't the language the characters are speaking.

Spoiler: off topic

Show

I did use a logographic puzzle (a rhebus of sorts) that was the Konami code except in punny pictures (pup pup crown crown heft wight heft wight banana apple, drawn out as pictures kinda arranged in the shape of a Nintendo controller), but that was purely as comic relief during a relatively high-pressure session.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Significant changes, see v2 changelog.

[Yakk]

Balance wise, suppose you have a pure-damage talent (that does nothing much of significance besides damage).

How much damage is 1 point of talent worth?

...

I sort of dislike chains as a form of balance. If you compare them to spells, it would be like Fireball was "FireSpell3", and you had to spend 3 known spells to go from Fire Bolt to Burning Hands to Fireball.

Because chains are length limited, the balancing the Nth entry of a chain requires averaging over N entries, and it also means that (fiction wise) talents still need to be relatively flat. A "This would only be appropriate for a T4 character" cannot be expressed (very well) in talent chains; either it requires a character to expend every single talent on the same chain from level 1 on up, or it can be gotten earlier than T4.

Meanwhile, for spells, it is easy; it is a 9th level spell.

The idea of abilities having levels already exists in D&D and 5e in general. As this is meant as a complement to spells, I'd vote you hijack it.

Talents should have levels.

If a full-martial gets access to a new level of Talents every 4 levels (1, 5, 9, 13, 17), this means that these talent levels correspond to adventuring tiers.

Now, you can still have FireSpell3 that grants access to FireSpell2 and FireSpell1, but you aren't locked into chain design.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Balance wise, suppose you have a pure-damage talent (that does nothing much of significance besides damage).

How much damage is 1 point of talent worth?

...

I sort of dislike chains as a form of balance. If you compare them to spells, it would be like Fireball was "FireSpell3", and you had to spend 3 known spells to go from Fire Bolt to Burning Hands to Fireball.

Because chains are length limited, the balancing the Nth entry of a chain requires averaging over N entries, and it also means that (fiction wise) talents still need to be relatively flat. A "This would only be appropriate for a T4 character" cannot be expressed (very well) in talent chains; either it requires a character to expend every single talent on the same chain from level 1 on up, or it can be gotten earlier than T4.

Meanwhile, for spells, it is easy; it is a 9th level spell.

The idea of abilities having levels already exists in D&D and 5e in general. As this is meant as a complement to spells, I'd vote you hijack it.

Talents should have levels.

If a full-martial gets access to a new level of Talents every 4 levels (1, 5, 9, 13, 17), this means that these talent levels correspond to adventuring tiers.

Now, you can still have FireSpell3 that grants access to FireSpell2 and FireSpell1, but you aren't locked into chain design.

I strongly disagree, and would prefer that spells had the chain design. The "ravioli, cherry pick the best one" design is exactly what I want to avoid. Because it's the core of why spells are dysfunctional. I want casters (especially) to have to jump through hoops to get access to the 2nd+ tier ones, not "oh, you get the benefits of two talents for the price of one at level 7."

I want thematic "I'm getting better at X" designs. I also strongly dislike the idea that you're a zero at T1 and a demi-god at T4. No, you're an action hero (ie better than a normal person) in T1 and a low-power, but still significant, superhero in T4. So John McClaine to Black Widow. And yes, that should go for casters as well. So "relatively flat" works just fine for me. Talents are, among other things, supposed to encourage breadth, not depth. They give you more options, not bigger numbers in your core thing (most of the time). Numbers are a consolation prize.

To actually achieve balance (which is not the goal of this effort, at least not directly[1]), casters have to be put into their place. Which means changing how spell-casting works, because the current "spells have levels but that's the only requirement" model is unbalance-able. I find the idea that you can have invested nothing (fictionally or otherwise) in Fire spells and then one day pick up fireball/wall of fire/meteor swarm to be ludicrous. It says "just cherry pick the best ones, ignore any kind of theme."

[1] the goal is to give martials more nice things than casters get from this work, while also working on a framework for parallel advancement that scales differently for different classes. Balance by addition doesn't work unless you just give martials full spellcasting or something that's full spellcasting with the identifying marks filed off (aka ToB). And print books and books of nothing but "maneuvers". Balance requires pruning the overgrown foliage as well.

[Yakk]

Sure, but again, this means martial talents must, by your design, all suck.

They are all limited to either being T2 scale abilities, or being a 7 talent chain that excludes you from learning anything else. Both of which quite frankly suck.

If talents have levels, you can enforce a chain; Fire Level 2 can require Fire Level 1 as a requirement. But the level requirement of the talent can be divorced from the chain length of the talent.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Sure, but again, this means martial talents must, by your design, all suck.

They are all limited to either being T2 scale abilities, or being a 7 talent chain that excludes you from learning anything else. Both of which quite frankly suck.

If talents have levels, you can enforce a chain; Fire Level 2 can require Fire Level 1 as a requirement. But the level requirement of the talent can be divorced from the chain length of the talent.

Only if you mean "anything that's not on par with the current (busted) high-level spells must suck". Which I deny.

For one thing, T2 is where most of the game happens, by design. For another, this whole idea of cabining off some things as "T1" or "T2" (etc) effects is, to me, ludicrously artificial and a sign that something's gone horribly wrong. Every effect should be reasonable at all levels, because in reality, games don't actually handle radical level scaling well at all. Proper growth should be linear at most. Logarithmic would be even better--fast growth early on, but then slowing down.

If I said that most of the (say) rank 3 talents required level 11...then those just wouldn't see play much at all. Which is pointless. Instead, I'd prefer that I make things that provide meaningful horizontal growth whenever you take them while not being overwhelming at any level. With meaningful progression one to another. So someone who decides to focus on, say, chopping weapons is always better taking the next rank than they are taking nothing at all, but it's usually a reasonable choice to instead take the rank 1 talent in another chain (so as to promote horizontal growth).

I don't want these to be major sources of power or things you build your character around. That's what class features are for. These are secondary things.

And yes, casters need to have their growth rate and power level chopped down. The game would be, IMO, much better off if there were no spells of 6th level or higher (as they are now). Barring that, the gap between 5th and 9th level spells should be smaller than the gap between 1st and 5th.

I don't want anyone treating throwing mountains around or flight as something "normal and required". Teleporting and planar travel should be awesome (and thus necessarily rare or infrequent) things, not "meh, I can do this 5x today without stretching myself."