Results 1 to 30 of 725
-
2022-09-03, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
The original thread had to do with "here it comes." It's here.
We saw the first two episodes last night. Visually well done. Pacing was a bit slow.
A few things.
Galadriel seeking out "them as done her brother (Finrod) in" works well since she's to be a major protagonist: her motive makes sense within the history of the First Age.
Spoiler: First age stuffOriginally Posted by Tolkien Gateway, based on [I
Gil Gilad rewarding various elves with a journey to Valinor: an interesting take on the occasional travels to the West from the Havens in Lindon, but I suppose the justification for that is in the Unfinished Tales somewhere. I don't recall that from Appendixes in RotK nor The Silmarillion's treatment of the second age.
Elrond, introduced as "Herald Elrond" and acting as some sort of counselor or politician: it works.
The Harfoots: works well enough but I hope it improves; a little too juvenile in tone for my taste.Spoiler: The Stranger/Giant(The meteor falling to earth with an angel is right out of the opening scene to the CRPG Diablo III-guessing it is one of the blue wizards, don't think it's Sauron
The Elves keeping watch over "the southlands" for years and years. OK, works well enough.
Introduction to Celebrimbor: OK.
Monsters beginning to appear: OK, all of Galadriel's worst fears, that she won't let go, that evil is making a comeback, are demonstrated as true in both episode one and episode two.
I don't understand that sword with the broken blade yet, nor why it was where it was.Spoiler: What was that?
The kid digs it up from under some loose floorboards, and his blood flows uphill into the broken blade near the end of ep 2. I am guessing that it's something like the Morgul blades of LoTR, but I guess we'll learn more as the episodes go along.
Lastly, I am not quite sure where 'the Southlands' are: Umbar? Southern Gondor? Harad?Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-09-03 at 10:16 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
-
2022-09-03, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
SpoilerOkay, saw this in the other thread, and I have to ask: what's the context for a scene of Utumno being in the show? I'm struggling to think of why an event that far back would appear. The Elves had barely awoken when the Valar attacked Morgoth there and destroyed it, even Galadriel hadn't been born yet, and none of the Elves ever went anywhere near Utumno during that struggle.
(I'm not watching the show due to not having Amazon Prime.)Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
-
2022-09-03, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
Novel Elrond did describe himself as having been a herald during the Second Age.
"I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand."Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
-
2022-09-03, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
-
2022-09-03, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
SpoilerI take it then that you mean Galadriel goes to the ruins of Utumno looking for Sauron? That's... a suspect choice, but I guess theoretically possible. As devastated as the land around it and the fortress itself was in the battle, The Silmarillion does say that the Valar never discovered all of its hidden vaults and caverns - which was just an explanation for how some of Morgoth's creatures that were there, like the Balrogs, escaped, but I guess leaves room for someone to go there later. Although it would surely take a long time to find, given all Galadriel would know about it is that it was somewhere in the northern reaches of the world.Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
-
2022-09-03, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
SpoilerAccording to her, Morgoth's orcs gathered there after his defeat. And it did take a lot of time, so points for that. Negative points for it supposedly sporting a mark of Sauron meant to lead the orcs to him that you kinda need to be clairvoyant to findSpoilerfirst Galadriel punches a hole in a random ice wall to find a hidden passage, then she does the water pouring thing from the teaser/trailer/whatever it was to reveal the mark.
-
2022-09-03, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
SpoilerHuh, weird. Though, yeah, good on them for understanding that finding the ruins of Utumno would take a long time given how little Galadriel would know about it, I suppose.
It also occurs to me though that Galadriel should know enough about Sauron to know that if he wants to hide, he doesn't need a physical location that's hard to find to do it. He's a Maia, and unlike Morgoth he didn't expend so much of his power twisting things to evil that he was unable to discard his body, he can just stay in spirit form and be largely undetectable to anyone but another Ainu. He probably fled to somewhere quite remote like that in the immediate aftermath of the War of Wrath, while Eonwe and any other Maiar that were involved in that were still around, but once they returned to Aman he'd have been pretty free to wander where he pleased as long as he wasn't using a body to do it.Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
-
2022-09-03, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
SpoilerSauron is in a lot of ways kind of fundamentally egotistical. You don't look to enforce your will on the entire world in any sort of way without that. He may have had the technical capacity to hide like that, but its really unlikely that he would have the strength of will or personality to literally just sit on his laurels doing nothing except laugh when people try and find him. He would have to be really extremely weak or threatened for that to seem like an appealing choice.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2022-09-04, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Gender
-
2022-09-04, 03:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
I mean, just removing the ice wall altogether would be an improvement. And considering the way this show works, we could easily move to the men\harfoot segment right afther they enter Udun and return to Galadriel with one of her elves saying something like "Commander, we have been here for weeks. There is nothing.".
-
2022-09-04, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
SpoilerAnd yet that's precisely what he did. At the start of the Second Age, he laid low for a full five hundred years before starting to "stir again in Middle-Earth," per the timeline in the LotR appendices. While it's not spelled out specifically, it's pretty unlikely that he did so while embodied and just hiding in some remote location, since the whole reason for doing so would surely be avoid attracting attention from Aman in the aftermath of the War of Wrath.
Remember also that this is the same being who humbles himself before the Numenoreans when he judges he can't simply defeat them in a straight up conflict. Egotistical he may be, but Sauron is cunning, and able to tell when it's to his benefit not to simply seek direct conflict. He's more than capable of biding his time in hiding when it's to his advantage.Toph Pony avatar by Dirtytabs. Thanks!
"When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." -C.S. Lewis
-
2022-09-04, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
My willpower failed me and I watched it.
SpoilerWas that place confirmed as Utumno? I just assumed it was a random fortress of evil.
It's not clear how much Galadriel knows of Sauron, she seems to be just on a personal quest and not care much if it makes sense. Maybe she thinks he's stuck in his body like Melkor was near the end.
Now, on to the important questions... is that cow CGI? Something about it feels off to me.
-
2022-09-04, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
SpoilerDon't think it was confirmed - at the very least not directly in the show - but the way they talked about it made it seem it is more than a random place. And being in a frozen wasteland does fit here...
SpoilerNow, on to the important questions... is that cow CGI? Something about it feels off to me.
BTW, anyone noticed anything off with the map in ep 1, specifically the one showing the lands where the elves pursuing Morgoth went?
SpoilerBeleriand must have sunk much earlier in the show's timeline :P
-
2022-09-04, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2015
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
I am aware of that, I have read the books multiple times. He was the Herald of the King Gil Galad at the end of the second age. Being introduced as Herald Elrond at the beginning of the Second Age, or early in the Second Age, seems to foreshadow that eventual assignment. It for for sure puts him in an official position in relation to the king. (To whom he is related if I recall my genealogy correctly). As I said: it works.
Please, no.
Well, if you look at the maps in the book The Silmarillion, Angband and Utunmo are certainly in the North of Middle Earth.SpoilerBeleriand must have sunk much earlier in the show's timeline :PAvatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
-
2022-09-04, 06:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2011
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr
Spoiler…first Galadriel punches a hole in a random ice wall to find a hidden passage….SpoilerThings like this have me a little worried. Are there hammers and picks involved, or does she just punch through the ice wall barehanded? Did she get a little of Bruce Banner’s blood on her?
-
2022-09-04, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
-
2022-09-04, 10:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
-
2022-09-05, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
- Location
- Bristol
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
The relationship between them is never entirely clear as Gil-Galad's ancestry changes between various versions of Tolkien's work. In the Silmarillion he is the son of Fingon, and therefore grandson of Fingolfin, but the generally accepted version now is that he was the son of Orodreth, and therefore great-grandson of Finarfin.
There are, as I understand it, three other elven descendants of Finwë living in Middle-Earth during the Second Age, the remainder having died, disappeared permanently, or remained in Valinor. These are Celebrimbor, grandson of Fëanor (the only other male-line descendant from Finwë, and arguably with a superior claim to the throne on basis of primogeniture, but this doesn't seem to be a relevant consideration); Galadriel, daughter of Finarfin; and Elrond, who is the great-great-grandson of Fingolfin through a female line.
The entire ruling house of Numenor also descends from Finwë via Elrond's brother, of course, but they are human.
So, assuming the Orodreth parentage is correct, Elrond is Gil-Galad's third cousin, Celebrimbor is his second cousin once removed, and Galadriel is his great-aunt. Although none of these seem particularly close relationships, the relative narrowness of the various branches of the house of Finwë and the lack of information about the other side of Gil-Galad's family means that these three may actually be his closest relatives in Middle-Earth.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
Red Sabres - Season I Cup Champions, two-time Cup Semifinalists
Anlec Razors - Two-time Cup Semifinalists
Bad Badenhof Bats - Season VII Cup Champions
League Wiki
Spoiler: Previous Avatars(by Strawberries)
(by Rain Dragon)
-
2022-09-05, 07:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- Tail of the Bellcurve
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
Watched the second episode. I think my broad conclusion is this feels like a very good TV show adaptation of a Tolkien ripoff novel from like 1983, where for some reason nobody noticed some of the characters have names from Lord of the Rings. This is not even of itself a ding, I love me some oldschool Tolkien knockoffs, and the writers capture that feel perfectly, intentionally or not. But it isn't super Tolkienesque to me. I like the character of Galadriel in this show, she has absolutely nothing in common with book or movie Galadriel.
Which leaves me with the alternatives of getting dumb and angry about how they change some lore stuff and it doesn't feel right, or just enjoying it as a fun high fantasy TV show. I'm gonna do the latter until such time as it stops being fun on those grounds, because the last thing the world needs is more silly nerd rage about irrelevant things. Tolkien still matters to me, they're the books I have reread the most, and love the deepest. But I'm perfectly capable of separating the show from the books, and intend to do exactly that.Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
-
2022-09-05, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
Thats fair on the surface, but I think if you actually find yourself needing to do that, it means its failed as an adaptation. Its nice that you can get any enjoyment out of it, but if you have to totally disconnect yourself from the work its nominally basing itself off of... whats even the point.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
-
2022-09-05, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
-
2022-09-05, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Location
- Tail of the Bellcurve
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
I get to watch and enjoy a good fantasy show full of orcs, elves, magic and other stuff that I like? This seems pretty obvious to me, good things are good, and can be enjoyed as such even if they aren't faithful to the source material which I also like a tremendous amount. I am capable of separating the show on the screen from the books on my shelf, and benefitting from the existence of both. I'm not really in love with the show's existence, but in two episodes it's so far been I think the best high fantasy TV put out, and probably the best high fantasy anything since Return of the King 20 years ago.
I'll completely admit I was skeptical as hell, and it's taken a bit of thinking to get to where I'm at right now. But I just don't like the whole faithfulness to the source material fan rage that shows up for goddamn everything anymore. I don't like fandom in general, and this is one of the worst, most reductive and least nuanced portions of it. If getting away from that requires me to do some thinking and analysis of my own weird twitchy biases, I'll do that. As a payoff I get more things to enjoy, and less pointless, self indulgent rage in my life.Blood-red were his spurs i' the golden noon; wine-red was his velvet coat,
When they shot him down on the highway,
Down like a dog on the highway,And he lay in his blood on the highway, with the bunch of lace at his throat.
Alfred Noyes, The Highwayman, 1906.
-
2022-09-05, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
-
2022-09-05, 09:33 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
-
2022-09-05, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
- Location
- Australia
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
-
2022-09-05, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2004
- Location
- Dijon, France
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
Agreed, it's not as if she punched it twice and the whole thing exploded. Just watched again and the ice wall is 10, max 15 cm thick. First punch cracked it, second blew out a fist sized hole with a bit of mushrooming at the back. Not a superhuman feat, but one that is within the realm of normal (though exceptional)/semi supernatural possibilities.
As for the show. Some nitpicks, but honestly, for me, the obvious CGI is really obvious and distracting (the green screens and Elrond scenes are *horrible*...speaking of Elrond, I hope the actor grows on me, but for now, the makeup and hair for the elves is just...erm, no)
-
2022-09-05, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
Yeah, I think the best way to get value out of this is to temporarily forget everything you know about Tolkien lore.
Even doing that, though, I found Galadriel's plotline generic and regressive. She has the 'I'm right, why isn't anyone listening to me?' plotline that only works if you take away all her power in the name of empowering her, acting like the biggest victim that ever victimed while being a strong contender for 'most privileged person in Middle Earth.'
Elrond is the strongest performance so far.
-
2022-09-05, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
I'll say the second episode and it's Durin-Elrond plot was by far the strongest and most interesting thread we've seen so far. But we'll see what they do with it.
-
2022-09-05, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
- Gender
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
I would argue that is less showing how good that thread is, and more how bad the rest is ;P
Although I kinda feel they chose the wrong elf to forget about other races having a different relation to time. After all Elrond is in an unique position among them due to his heritage and family...
-
2022-09-05, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth
Eh, I'd say all our plot threads thus far are in the okay-to-good range, with the Southland thread by far the weakest and Elrond-Durin by far the strongest and everything else falling in the middle.
For me it works, despite the fact that Elrond is less likely to forget, because being the least likely elf to forget that 20 years is a long time to non-elves is not a hard bar to clear, nor does it mean you always remember. Indeed, the very fact that they were actually friends makes it more believable to me. This wasn't part of his 'job' of diplomacy, it was part of his 'life' which almost entirely consists of other elves.