The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[KorvinStarmast]

The original thread had to do with "here it comes." It's here.

We saw the first two episodes last night. Visually well done. Pacing was a bit slow.

A few things.

Galadriel seeking out "them as done her brother (Finrod) in" works well since she's to be a major protagonist: her motive makes sense within the history of the First Age.

Spoiler: First age stuff

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The Silmarillion[/I]]"King Finrod Felagund, fairest and most beloved of the house of Finwë."
Finrod was an Elven king of the Noldor, eldest son of Finarfin and older brother to Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel. Finrod was like his father in his fair face and golden hair, and also in his noble and generous heart. In Beleriand, Finrod became the ruler of Nargothrond, taking the after-name of Felagund. He was a wise, just and powerful Elf, and a great traveller.

Sauron imprisoned them and one by one they were killed by werewolves until only Beren and Felagund were left, but none of the companions betrayed them. When the werewolf came to kill Beren, Felagund put forth all his power and burst his bonds. He wrestled with the werewolf, and slew it with his hands and teeth. Yet he himself was mortally wounded, and he died in the dark, in Tol-in-Gaurhoth, whose great tower he himself had built. Thus King Finrod Felagund, the fairest and most beloved of the house of Finwë, redeemed his oath.

Gil Gilad rewarding various elves with a journey to Valinor: an interesting take on the occasional travels to the West from the Havens in Lindon, but I suppose the justification for that is in the Unfinished Tales somewhere. I don't recall that from Appendixes in RotK nor The Silmarillion's treatment of the second age.

Elrond, introduced as "Herald Elrond" and acting as some sort of counselor or politician: it works.

The Harfoots: works well enough but I hope it improves; a little too juvenile in tone for my taste.

Spoiler: The Stranger/Giant

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(The meteor falling to earth with an angel is right out of the opening scene to the CRPG Diablo III-guessing it is one of the blue wizards, don't think it's Sauron

The Elves keeping watch over "the southlands" for years and years. OK, works well enough.

Introduction to Celebrimbor: OK.

Monsters beginning to appear: OK, all of Galadriel's worst fears, that she won't let go, that evil is making a comeback, are demonstrated as true in both episode one and episode two.

I don't understand that sword with the broken blade yet, nor why it was where it was.

Spoiler: What was that?

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The kid digs it up from under some loose floorboards, and his blood flows uphill into the broken blade near the end of ep 2. I am guessing that it's something like the Morgul blades of LoTR, but I guess we'll learn more as the episodes go along.

Lastly, I am not quite sure where 'the Southlands' are: Umbar? Southern Gondor? Harad?

[Zevox]

Spoiler: For the first episode, and Tolkien lore in general

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Utumno/Udun was amazing. Gave me chills.

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Okay, saw this in the other thread, and I have to ask: what's the context for a scene of Utumno being in the show? I'm struggling to think of why an event that far back would appear. The Elves had barely awoken when the Valar attacked Morgoth there and destroyed it, even Galadriel hadn't been born yet, and none of the Elves ever went anywhere near Utumno during that struggle.

(I'm not watching the show due to not having Amazon Prime.)

[hamishspence]

Elrond, introduced as "Herald Elrond" and acting as some sort of counselor or politician: it works.

Novel Elrond did describe himself as having been a herald during the Second Age.

"I was the herald of Gil-galad and marched with his host. I was at the Battle of Dagorlad before the Black Gate of Mordor, where we had the mastery: for the Spear of Gil-galad and the Sword of Elendil, Aiglos and Narsil, none could withstand."

[Divayth Fyr]

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Okay, saw this in the other thread, and I have to ask: what's the context for a scene of Utumno being in the show? I'm struggling to think of why an event that far back would appear. The Elves had barely awoken when the Valar attacked Morgoth there and destroyed it, even Galadriel hadn't been born yet, and none of the Elves ever went anywhere near Utumno during that struggle.

(I'm not watching the show due to not having Amazon Prime.)

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Finrod was supposedly on a quest to hunt down Sauron. When he died (and was branded by Sauron) Galadriel took it onto herself to finish her mission, going through the whole world if need be. Hence Utumno.

[Zevox]

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Finrod was supposedly on a quest to hunt down Sauron. When he died (and was branded by Sauron) Galadriel took it onto herself to finish her mission, going through the whole world if need be. Hence Utumno.

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I take it then that you mean Galadriel goes to the ruins of Utumno looking for Sauron? That's... a suspect choice, but I guess theoretically possible. As devastated as the land around it and the fortress itself was in the battle, The Silmarillion does say that the Valar never discovered all of its hidden vaults and caverns - which was just an explanation for how some of Morgoth's creatures that were there, like the Balrogs, escaped, but I guess leaves room for someone to go there later. Although it would surely take a long time to find, given all Galadriel would know about it is that it was somewhere in the northern reaches of the world.

[Divayth Fyr]

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I take it then that you mean Galadriel goes to the ruins of Utumno looking for Sauron? That's... a suspect choice, but I guess theoretically possible. As devastated as the land around it and the fortress itself was in the battle, The Silmarillion does say that the Valar never discovered all of its hidden vaults and caverns - which was just an explanation for how some of Morgoth's creatures that were there, like the Balrogs, escaped, but I guess leaves room for someone to go there later. Although it would surely take a long time to find, given all Galadriel would know about it is that it was somewhere in the northern reaches of the world.

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According to her, Morgoth's orcs gathered there after his defeat. And it did take a lot of time, so points for that. Negative points for it supposedly sporting a mark of Sauron meant to lead the orcs to him that you kinda need to be clairvoyant to find

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first Galadriel punches a hole in a random ice wall to find a hidden passage, then she does the water pouring thing from the teaser/trailer/whatever it was to reveal the mark.

[Zevox]

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According to her, Morgoth's orcs gathered there after his defeat. And it did take a lot of time, so points for that. Negative points for it supposedly sporting a mark of Sauron meant to lead the orcs to him that you kinda need to be clairvoyant to find

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first Galadriel punches a hole in a random ice wall to find a hidden passage, then she does the water pouring thing from the teaser/trailer/whatever it was to reveal the mark.

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Huh, weird. Though, yeah, good on them for understanding that finding the ruins of Utumno would take a long time given how little Galadriel would know about it, I suppose.

It also occurs to me though that Galadriel should know enough about Sauron to know that if he wants to hide, he doesn't need a physical location that's hard to find to do it. He's a Maia, and unlike Morgoth he didn't expend so much of his power twisting things to evil that he was unable to discard his body, he can just stay in spirit form and be largely undetectable to anyone but another Ainu. He probably fled to somewhere quite remote like that in the immediate aftermath of the War of Wrath, while Eonwe and any other Maiar that were involved in that were still around, but once they returned to Aman he'd have been pretty free to wander where he pleased as long as he wasn't using a body to do it.

[Keltest]

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Huh, weird. Though, yeah, good on them for understanding that finding the ruins of Utumno would take a long time given how little Galadriel would know about it, I suppose.

It also occurs to me though that Galadriel should know enough about Sauron to know that if he wants to hide, he doesn't need a physical location that's hard to find to do it. He's a Maia, and unlike Morgoth he didn't expend so much of his power twisting things to evil that he was unable to discard his body, he can just stay in spirit form and be largely undetectable to anyone but another Ainu. He probably fled to somewhere quite remote like that in the immediate aftermath of the War of Wrath, while Eonwe and any other Maiar that were involved in that were still around, but once they returned to Aman he'd have been pretty free to wander where he pleased as long as he wasn't using a body to do it.

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Sauron is in a lot of ways kind of fundamentally egotistical. You don't look to enforce your will on the entire world in any sort of way without that. He may have had the technical capacity to hide like that, but its really unlikely that he would have the strength of will or personality to literally just sit on his laurels doing nothing except laugh when people try and find him. He would have to be really extremely weak or threatened for that to seem like an appealing choice.

[factotum]

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According to her, Morgoth's orcs gathered there after his defeat. And it did take a lot of time, so points for that. Negative points for it supposedly sporting a mark of Sauron meant to lead the orcs to him that you kinda need to be clairvoyant to find

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first Galadriel punches a hole in a random ice wall to find a hidden passage, then she does the water pouring thing from the teaser/trailer/whatever it was to reveal the mark.

To be fair, the two episodes we've had so far are already a pretty slow boil, did you want Galadriel to spend weeks searching the place?

[Divayth Fyr]

To be fair, the two episodes we've had so far are already a pretty slow boil, did you want Galadriel to spend weeks searching the place?

I mean, just removing the ice wall altogether would be an improvement. And considering the way this show works, we could easily move to the men\harfoot segment right afther they enter Udun and return to Galadriel with one of her elves saying something like "Commander, we have been here for weeks. There is nothing.".

[Zevox]

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Sauron is in a lot of ways kind of fundamentally egotistical. You don't look to enforce your will on the entire world in any sort of way without that. He may have had the technical capacity to hide like that, but its really unlikely that he would have the strength of will or personality to literally just sit on his laurels doing nothing except laugh when people try and find him. He would have to be really extremely weak or threatened for that to seem like an appealing choice.

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And yet that's precisely what he did. At the start of the Second Age, he laid low for a full five hundred years before starting to "stir again in Middle-Earth," per the timeline in the LotR appendices. While it's not spelled out specifically, it's pretty unlikely that he did so while embodied and just hiding in some remote location, since the whole reason for doing so would surely be avoid attracting attention from Aman in the aftermath of the War of Wrath.

Remember also that this is the same being who humbles himself before the Numenoreans when he judges he can't simply defeat them in a straight up conflict. Egotistical he may be, but Sauron is cunning, and able to tell when it's to his benefit not to simply seek direct conflict. He's more than capable of biding his time in hiding when it's to his advantage.

[Sapphire Guard]

My willpower failed me and I watched it.

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Was that place confirmed as Utumno? I just assumed it was a random fortress of evil.

It's not clear how much Galadriel knows of Sauron, she seems to be just on a personal quest and not care much if it makes sense. Maybe she thinks he's stuck in his body like Melkor was near the end.

Now, on to the important questions... is that cow CGI? Something about it feels off to me.

[Divayth Fyr]

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Was that place confirmed as Utumno? I just assumed it was a random fortress of evil.

It's not clear how much Galadriel knows of Sauron, she seems to be just on a personal quest and not care much if it makes sense. Maybe she thinks he's stuck in his body like Melkor was near the end.

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Don't think it was confirmed - at the very least not directly in the show - but the way they talked about it made it seem it is more than a random place. And being in a frozen wasteland does fit here...

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Now, on to the important questions... is that cow CGI? Something about it feels off to me.

At least CGI-touched up I think.

BTW, anyone noticed anything off with the map in ep 1, specifically the one showing the lands where the elves pursuing Morgoth went?

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Beleriand must have sunk much earlier in the show's timeline :P

[KorvinStarmast]

Novel Elrond did describe himself as having been a herald during the Second Age.

I am aware of that, I have read the books multiple times. He was the Herald of the King Gil Galad at the end of the second age. Being introduced as Herald Elrond at the beginning of the Second Age, or early in the Second Age, seems to foreshadow that eventual assignment. It for for sure puts him in an official position in relation to the king. (To whom he is related if I recall my genealogy correctly). As I said: it works.

To be fair, the two episodes we've had so far are already a pretty slow boil, did you want Galadriel to spend weeks searching the place?

Please, no.

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And being in a frozen wasteland does fit here...

Well, if you look at the maps in the book The Silmarillion, Angband and Utunmo are certainly in the North of Middle Earth.

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Beleriand must have sunk much earlier in the show's timeline :P

IIRC, much of it sank at the end of the first age, with the Blue Mountains (Ered Luin) and a bit of their western slopes surviving as parts of Lindon.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr

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…first Galadriel punches a hole in a random ice wall to find a hidden passage….

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Things like this have me a little worried. Are there hammers and picks involved, or does she just punch through the ice wall barehanded? Did she get a little of Bruce Banner’s blood on her?

[Divayth Fyr]

Well, if you look at the maps in the book The Silmarillion, Angband and Utunmo are certainly in the North of Middle Earth. IIRC, much of it sank at the end of the first age, [URL="https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UmqXwHWfL._AC_SL1024_.jpg"]with the Blue Mountains (Ered Luin) and a bit of their western slopes [/URLI]surviving as parts of Lindon.

Yeah, I know. But the landmass shown in your ink is used to show where the fleet pursuing Morgoth landed.

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Things like this have me a little worried. Are there hammers and picks involved, or does she just punch through the ice wall barehanded? Did she get a little of Bruce Banner’s blood on her?

No tools, just two punches.

[ecarden]

No tools, just two punches.

I mean, it's a sheet of ice over an opening and she's wearing armored gauntlets. This is not a feat which stood out to me.

[Aedilred]

I am aware of that, I have read the books multiple times. He was the Herald of the King Gil Galad at the end of the second age. Being introduced as Herald Elrond at the beginning of the Second Age, or early in the Second Age, seems to foreshadow that eventual assignment. It for for sure puts him in an official position in relation to the king. (To whom he is related if I recall my genealogy correctly). As I said: it works.

The relationship between them is never entirely clear as Gil-Galad's ancestry changes between various versions of Tolkien's work. In the Silmarillion he is the son of Fingon, and therefore grandson of Fingolfin, but the generally accepted version now is that he was the son of Orodreth, and therefore great-grandson of Finarfin.

There are, as I understand it, three other elven descendants of Finwë living in Middle-Earth during the Second Age, the remainder having died, disappeared permanently, or remained in Valinor. These are Celebrimbor, grandson of Fëanor (the only other male-line descendant from Finwë, and arguably with a superior claim to the throne on basis of primogeniture, but this doesn't seem to be a relevant consideration); Galadriel, daughter of Finarfin; and Elrond, who is the great-great-grandson of Fingolfin through a female line.

The entire ruling house of Numenor also descends from Finwë via Elrond's brother, of course, but they are human.

So, assuming the Orodreth parentage is correct, Elrond is Gil-Galad's third cousin, Celebrimbor is his second cousin once removed, and Galadriel is his great-aunt. Although none of these seem particularly close relationships, the relative narrowness of the various branches of the house of Finwë and the lack of information about the other side of Gil-Galad's family means that these three may actually be his closest relatives in Middle-Earth.

[warty goblin]

Watched the second episode. I think my broad conclusion is this feels like a very good TV show adaptation of a Tolkien ripoff novel from like 1983, where for some reason nobody noticed some of the characters have names from Lord of the Rings. This is not even of itself a ding, I love me some oldschool Tolkien knockoffs, and the writers capture that feel perfectly, intentionally or not. But it isn't super Tolkienesque to me. I like the character of Galadriel in this show, she has absolutely nothing in common with book or movie Galadriel.

Which leaves me with the alternatives of getting dumb and angry about how they change some lore stuff and it doesn't feel right, or just enjoying it as a fun high fantasy TV show. I'm gonna do the latter until such time as it stops being fun on those grounds, because the last thing the world needs is more silly nerd rage about irrelevant things. Tolkien still matters to me, they're the books I have reread the most, and love the deepest. But I'm perfectly capable of separating the show from the books, and intend to do exactly that.

[Keltest]

Which leaves me with the alternatives of getting dumb and angry about how they change some lore stuff and it doesn't feel right, or just enjoying it as a fun high fantasy TV show. I'm gonna do the latter until such time as it stops being fun on those grounds, because the last thing the world needs is more silly nerd rage about irrelevant things. Tolkien still matters to me, they're the books I have reread the most, and love the deepest. But I'm perfectly capable of separating the show from the books, and intend to do exactly that.

Thats fair on the surface, but I think if you actually find yourself needing to do that, it means its failed as an adaptation. Its nice that you can get any enjoyment out of it, but if you have to totally disconnect yourself from the work its nominally basing itself off of... whats even the point.

[Divayth Fyr]

I mean, it's a sheet of ice over an opening and she's wearing armored gauntlets. This is not a feat which stood out to me.

It is a sheet of ice that is decently thick. You might as well punch a brick wall...

[warty goblin]

Thats fair on the surface, but I think if you actually find yourself needing to do that, it means its failed as an adaptation. Its nice that you can get any enjoyment out of it, but if you have to totally disconnect yourself from the work its nominally basing itself off of... whats even the point.

I get to watch and enjoy a good fantasy show full of orcs, elves, magic and other stuff that I like? This seems pretty obvious to me, good things are good, and can be enjoyed as such even if they aren't faithful to the source material which I also like a tremendous amount. I am capable of separating the show on the screen from the books on my shelf, and benefitting from the existence of both. I'm not really in love with the show's existence, but in two episodes it's so far been I think the best high fantasy TV put out, and probably the best high fantasy anything since Return of the King 20 years ago.

I'll completely admit I was skeptical as hell, and it's taken a bit of thinking to get to where I'm at right now. But I just don't like the whole faithfulness to the source material fan rage that shows up for goddamn everything anymore. I don't like fandom in general, and this is one of the worst, most reductive and least nuanced portions of it. If getting away from that requires me to do some thinking and analysis of my own weird twitchy biases, I'll do that. As a payoff I get more things to enjoy, and less pointless, self indulgent rage in my life.

[factotum]

I like the character of Galadriel in this show, she has absolutely nothing in common with book or movie Galadriel.

"Book or movie Galadriel" has, what, four thousand years of life experience over and above what this Galadriel has? Even as long-lived as Elves are you have to assume that much time can change a person.

[Divayth Fyr]

"Book or movie Galadriel" has, what, four thousand years of life experience over and above what this Galadriel has? Even as long-lived as Elves are you have to assume that much time can change a person.

We can also look at Book!Galadriel at the point in life she would be during the timeframe of the show (so middle to late Second Era(ish)), who has a husband, daughter and is a ruler and leader. Not a vengeance-obsessed warrior.

[Corvus]

"Book or movie Galadriel" has, what, four thousand years of life experience over and above what this Galadriel has? Even as long-lived as Elves are you have to assume that much time can change a person.

At this point of the timeline she has already been around a long time, is pretty much the oldest Noldor elf around and probably the oldest elf of any type except for Cirdan the Shipwright.

[Maelstrom]

I mean, it's a sheet of ice over an opening and she's wearing armored gauntlets. This is not a feat which stood out to me.

Agreed, it's not as if she punched it twice and the whole thing exploded. Just watched again and the ice wall is 10, max 15 cm thick. First punch cracked it, second blew out a fist sized hole with a bit of mushrooming at the back. Not a superhuman feat, but one that is within the realm of normal (though exceptional)/semi supernatural possibilities.

As for the show. Some nitpicks, but honestly, for me, the obvious CGI is really obvious and distracting (the green screens and Elrond scenes are *horrible*...speaking of Elrond, I hope the actor grows on me, but for now, the makeup and hair for the elves is just...erm, no)

[Sapphire Guard]

Yeah, I think the best way to get value out of this is to temporarily forget everything you know about Tolkien lore.

Even doing that, though, I found Galadriel's plotline generic and regressive. She has the 'I'm right, why isn't anyone listening to me?' plotline that only works if you take away all her power in the name of empowering her, acting like the biggest victim that ever victimed while being a strong contender for 'most privileged person in Middle Earth.'

Elrond is the strongest performance so far.

[ecarden]

I'll say the second episode and it's Durin-Elrond plot was by far the strongest and most interesting thread we've seen so far. But we'll see what they do with it.

[Divayth Fyr]

I'll say the second episode and it's Durin-Elrond plot was by far the strongest and most interesting thread we've seen so far. But we'll see what they do with it.

I would argue that is less showing how good that thread is, and more how bad the rest is ;P

Although I kinda feel they chose the wrong elf to forget about other races having a different relation to time. After all Elrond is in an unique position among them due to his heritage and family...

[ecarden]

I would argue that is less showing how good that thread is, and more how bad the rest is ;P

Although I kinda feel they chose the wrong elf to forget about other races having a different relation to time. After all Elrond is in an unique position among them due to his heritage and family...

Eh, I'd say all our plot threads thus far are in the okay-to-good range, with the Southland thread by far the weakest and Elrond-Durin by far the strongest and everything else falling in the middle.

For me it works, despite the fact that Elrond is less likely to forget, because being the least likely elf to forget that 20 years is a long time to non-elves is not a hard bar to clear, nor does it mean you always remember. Indeed, the very fact that they were actually friends makes it more believable to me. This wasn't part of his 'job' of diplomacy, it was part of his 'life' which almost entirely consists of other elves.