The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[KorvinStarmast]

In the broader sense, Ossiriand is part of Beleriand.

Nandor (plus some Sylvan?) is a good call, thanks. And I think that when Lothlorien was established, it was a mix of Sindar into the larger Nandor group all said and done (with a few Noldor way back when) since it is east of the Misty Mountains.

[Talakeal]

My theory is that Adar is the first orc, the one Sarumon tells Lurtz about in Fellowship who was captured by Morgoth and twisted.

A google search tells me I am not alone in this.

[Metastachydium]

Nandor (plus some Sylvan?) is a good call, thanks. And I think that when Lothlorien was established, it was a mix of Sindar into the larger Nandor group all said and done (with a few Noldor way back when) since it is east of the Misty Mountains.

If memory serves, Thranduil's realm was likewise really a bunch of Nandor with a Sindar ruling family at the helm.

My theory is that Adar is the first orc, the one Sarumon tells Lurtz about in Fellowship who was captured by Morgoth and twisted.

That's almost as interesting as the Maglor one (my difficulty imagining a son of Fëanor teaming up with the Enemy aside), but I don't think that was ever meant to be a single specimen (rather than part of a batch) and I'm not sure the thing about the Sirion makes sense with that explanation, even if we disregard that longevity and orcs appear not to mix well.

[Sapphire Guard]

Do they have the rights to movie exclusive content? Though this was separate continuity.

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They left the tower according to their orders and got captured in the open field. Seems more likely than them getting captured while still inside a highly defensible structure.

Leaving Arondir behind? I suppose they might have come looking for him and then stumbled across the tunnels.

[TheSummoner]

On the subject of Arondir

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Adar spared him because he wanted to deliver a message. Setting aside that the message was basically "surrender or die" and that he has plenty of orcs who he could've had deliver the message, what possible reason could they have to give him his weapons back?

[Sapphire Guard]

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Are they the same weapons? Maybe scavenged from somewhere

[factotum]

On the subject of Arondir

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Adar spared him because he wanted to deliver a message. Setting aside that the message was basically "surrender or die" and that he has plenty of orcs who he could've had deliver the message

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Yeah, sending an orc up to the front gate of a guarded tower seems like a really effective way of sending a message to the people inside. (Note: this sentence may contain sarcasm).

[Aedilred]

I could buy Sindar agreeing to fight under Gil-Galad's command and recognising his authority. In the First Age, this would be less likely, because they had their own leaders in Thingol and Dior, and there was bad blood between them and the Noldor. But the drowning of Beleriand and consequent erasure of strict territorial boundaries will probably have had an effect, and the de facto leader of the Sindar in the Second Age seems to be Cirdan, who is both on good terms with Gil-Galad and not really a war-leader.

I also suggested earlier that this sort of thing might be an advantage of the revision to the background making Gil-Galad a descendant of Finarfin rather than the son of Fingon: he has ancestry from the Noldor, the Vanyar, and the Teleri (and therefore could presumably have entered Doriath, had that ever been relevant) which makes him a unifying figure of sorts for the Second Age elves, especially since Celeborn and Elrond (who would each have claims to Sindar kingship in their own right) seem to recognise his authority at least to an extent (as indeed does Galadriel).

So a Sindarin elf serving in a watchtower but taking order from Gil-Galad seems reasonable to me.

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Numenoreans according to canon: Hated the elves because they were jealous of the elves' immortality.

Numenoreans according to Amazon:

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There are going to be all sorts of motivations running through Númenorean society and it's been generations since they took against the elves. It's entirely credible that the ruling classes were envious of the elves' immortality but that they mobilised the people behind their culture war by appealing to their economic self-interest, especially the guildsmen who are clearly very jealous of their own position.

Maglor is a very interesting theory I haven't seen before, they could do a lot with that, but I don't think they could do it justice in the four remaining episodes even if they had the rights. It's such a great idea that the only way to do it justice would be in a separate show dedicated to it, not where he's warm up villain while we wait for Sauron to reveal himself.

Maglor is an interesting theory but there are at least three big things for me pointing against it. Firstly, it seems out of character for him, even assuming he's gone a bit mad. He may have been the most compassionate of Feanor's sons (which does kind of come across for Adar) but he was still a tireless, ferocious, ruthless warrior who sacrificed everything fighting the forces of Morgoth. Switching sides doesn't seem likely, even if he has gone a bit mad. Secondly, he mentions going "down the river" in Beleriand when he was young. Youth is going to be relative for elves but Maglor was already well into adulthood when he came to Beleriand, and his first experience of the river was likely going "up it" rather than "down it".

Third, and most notably, while Maglor surely carries visible scars, you would expect the most obviously scarred part of his body to be his hands, where the Silmarils burned them. Adar's scars are mostly on his face, while although we got quite a lot of hand-shots for him, there weren't any noteworthy burn-scars there.

I think part of all this is just straightforward misdirection. When in (I think) the other thread it was queried why nobody had been cast for "Annatar" someone commented that this would just lead to a million articles ten seconds later telling everyone that Annatar was Sauron. And anyone googling "Annatar" is going to get shown results for Sauron anyway. This is both inevitable and predictable. And the audience is going to be on the look out for "Sauron in disguise" anyway, thanks to the way the story is being told and assumed knowledge from the Lord of the Rings movies or books.

So instead of deploying Annatar qua Annatar early, which would be exposed immediately, and thereby likely killing the biggest mystery in the story, they're concealing Sauron from the audience with decoys. We have at least three possible Saurons in play (Adar, Halbrand and The Stranger) and no guarantee that any of them is actually Sauron (following "shell game" principles, he's probably none of them). So they can still build suspense and mystery before the reveal eventually happens (and I wouldn't be surprised if the audience is let in on Annatar's secret identity immediately he is deployed in that capacity).

Honestly I don't think eight episodes is enough for the story they're trying to tell as it is. We're halfway now. They're referencing the Silmarillion lore much more than I expected. I thought they wouldn't be able to reference the Vala at all, but they come up a fair amount.

Well this is just the first season and apparently there will be at least five. So I'm not too worried about pacing overall.

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Not sure why Elrond even cares about mithril, or why the Numenorians think elves will show up looking for work at their forges and taverns. It doesn't make sense, even by the low standards of an angry mob. Maybe Southlands refugees instead might have worked.

Why wouldn't anyone with an interest in craftsmanship care about a new, priceless, miracle material?

[Atranen]

A bit delayed watching EP 4, but a few thoughts:

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Arondir plot: I agree that there was poor pacing on his rescue. The timeline doesn't quite make sense, the orcs are still close enough to launch arrows and it isn't a threat. A nice shot and a good outline of a story, but the execution isn't quite there. Orcs are less menacing and that's bad.

Galadriel/Numenor: I like her inexperience regarding politics. I agree that it would have made her too good at everything (and not have an arc) to start out just like FoTR. And she has good reasons for her ignorance, as others have brought up. She's a flawed character.

Elrond/Durin: probably the best executed plotline so far, Elrond's speech really worked, Durin's hot and cold temper and values shown, Disa's ability to calm him down...lots to like here.

The innkeeper (?) revealed as a follower of Sauron: probably the high point of the episode for me, this promises a great twist and conflict ahead.

[TheSummoner]

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Are they the same weapons? Maybe scavenged from somewhere

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From where? I doubt the orcs just leave their weapons where he could freely take them. I'm not giving the show the benefit of something that isn't either shown or at least stated to have happened.

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Yeah, sending an orc up to the front gate of a guarded tower seems like a really effective way of sending a message to the people inside. (Note: this sentence may contain sarcasm).

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For all Adar knew, they weren't in a guarded tower. According to the knowledge he had, they were still in their village(s). Have the orcs approach, individually, or in a small group. Shout the message from a distance and leave. Worst case scenario, the villagers manage to kill the messenger(s) and that's still less dead orcs than you get from letting Arondir free and returning his weapons.

There are going to be all sorts of motivations running through Númenorean society and it's been generations since they took against the elves. It's entirely credible that the ruling classes were envious of the elves' immortality but that they mobilised the people behind their culture war by appealing to their economic self-interest, especially the guildsmen who are clearly very jealous of their own position.

It's been generations since they took against the elves. Elves are not allowed on Numenor. ONE SINGLE ELF shows up, shipwrecked for all intents and purposes, and wants to leave (until she wants the queen to give her an army instead). This is not at all a credible reason for the people of Numenor to think they the elves want to take their jobs.

As for the being jealous of elven immortality part, I'm willing to give the show some more time on that one. Until/Unless it comes up in the show though, it's headcanon to assume it's the same as it was in the Silmarillion.

[Grim Portent]

On the concept of sending orcs as messengers, this is something that the elves, dwarves and most men would likely accept readily. Not that they would accept the orc with open arms and sit them by the fire and pour a cup of wine as they might do with one another, but they would let it approach the gate and hear what it has to say.

Orcs aren't animals, and the concept of parlaying with them is not foreign to the people of Middle Earth, they don't trust them, but they still talk to them when the orcs approach under the veil of diplomacy, as the orcs usually do in return though they are more likely to betray a parley. Doing otherwise is dishonourable, if someone approaches under a white flag bearing a message it is improper to attack or imprison them, the convention is to hear them out and then send them back with a response.

[diplomancer]

A bit delayed watching EP 4, but a few thoughts:

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Galadriel/Numenor: I like her inexperience regarding politics. I agree that it would have made her too good at everything (and not have an arc) to start out just like FoTR. And she has good reasons for her ignorance, as others have brought up. She's a flawed character.

Except Galadriel remained hundreds of years in different courts, first the Noldorin court in Tirion, then Thingol's court in Doriath.

Honestly, the best solution would be to have this be a different character created for the show, a relatively young and inexperienced Elf. Maybe even tasked by Galadriel to go after Sauron. A lot (but not all) ofthe problems with this arc would go away. But this character is simply not Galadriel.

[Clertar]

Really fun episode. I missed having some progress on the meteor man, but really enjoyed to see the progress on all the characters and archs from an approach that clearly is a love of Tolkien.

[KorvinStarmast]

I could buy Sindar agreeing to fight under Gil-Galad's command and recognising his authority...the de facto leader of the Sindar in the Second Age seems to be Cirdan, who is both on good terms with Gil-Galad and not really a war-leader.

That's how it worked out in the Second Age more than once, according to the appendices.

I also suggested earlier that this sort of thing might be an advantage of the revision to the background making Gil-Galad a descendant of Finarfin rather than the son of Fingon: he has ancestry from the Noldor, the Vanyar, and the Teleri (and therefore could presumably have entered Doriath, had that ever been relevant) which makes him a unifying figure of sorts for the Second Age elves, especially since Celeborn and Elrond (who would each have claims to Sindar kingship in their own right) seem to recognise his authority at least to an extent (as indeed does Galadriel).

That's a good take, and barely varies from the lore.

Maglor is an interesting theory but there are at least three big things for me pointing against it. {First to points well made} Third, and most notably, while Maglor surely carries visible scars, you would expect the most obviously scarred part of his body to be his hands, where the Silmarils burned them.

It only takes one hand to hold a Silmaril (ask Beren) and you'll note that Adar's left hand is covered in a heavy gauntlet. That would conceal the burn marks.

Yes, I did say it was a reach.

We have at least three possible Saurons in play (Adar, Halbrand and The Stranger) and no guarantee that any of them is actually Sauron (following "shell game" principles, he's probably none of them). So they can still build suspense and mystery before the reveal eventually happens (and I wouldn't be surprised if the audience is let in on Annatar's secret identity immediately he is deployed in that capacity).

Yes, it is a bit of misdirection.

Five Seasons?

[Vinyadan]

Have they shown Cirdan yet? Does he have a beard?

[Psyren]

I know very little of the deep lore here but man am I enjoying this series. The stuff happening in the Southlands in particular, knowing what that region will eventually become, is deliciously tense and foreboding.

[warty goblin]

I liked this episode a lot, I'd say easily the strongest so far.

We actually got some payoff for stuff this time. Galadriel gets some character growth, and the Numenor plot, which was threatening to stall out, does the exact opposite.

Also more dwarves, which the show is doing very well. Dwarves often kinda get short shrift in fantasy, it's nice to see very dwarfy Dwarves as good, sympathetic characters.

The Mordor Housing Development remains the most engaging plotline though. There's more action, it's higher stakes, and it's the place where evil is an active force, not just crummy attitudes.

Also, the scene running through the woods from the orcs was really top notch. Excellent scene composition, editing, tone, the works. This show has its flaws, but it does get how to really stamp on the high fantasy gas pedal, and it does it very well.

And yet again, I will point out that the orcs have consistently shown that they use mercy or some other form of seeming reward as a further form of cruelty. Letting them go once they reached daylight is not out of character at all, daylight sucks, they know where they're going, and letting them stew in misery is more fun than getting scorched chasing them over open ground.

RE Sauron

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I'm pretty sure Adar is not Sauron. Adar is, I think, exactly what he looks like: an elf. Remember that orcs are twisted elves. Well who's to say that all the elves required that much twisting? Or that orcs were only made the one time? He may literally be a father of orcs.

It's not even a huge lore stretch, at least in basic concept. Morgoth made orcs to be sure, but Sauron and Saruman both tinkered with and "improved" the breed. Starting (or continuing) that process would make sense, the sun is clearly a huge problem for orcs, and one that Sauron would have had ample time to consider solving by now.

I'd been rating the show probably like a C+/B-, but this last episode was a solid B+.

[Psyren]

I really love the skill stunts the elves are performing in this show - again, everything they pull off is now something I can more easily show my DM and say "High Dex! High Dex!"

Even Elrond instantly memorizing and immediately grokking the significance of the dwarven nursery rhyme was a flex.

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Starting (or continuing) that process would make sense, the sun is clearly a huge problem for orcs, and one that Sauron would have had ample time to consider solving by now.

Did he solve that? I thought only Saruman did? Again, my Tolkien lore is shaky at best.

[warty goblin]

Did he solve that? I thought only Saruman did? Again, my Tolkien lore is shaky at best.

Partially. Uruks are an innovation of Sauron's, though they don't appear until the Third Age. They are clearly distinct from regular orcs, Gandalf refers to "black uruks of Mordor" in Moria, and says they are "large and evil." In Cirith Ungol, the patrol from Minas Morgul is made up of uruks, the Cirith Ungol tower orcs are just normal orcs.

Saruman's uruk-hai are, in the books, just uruks. He also breeds goblin-man hybrids, which are not uruk-hai, though the two are generally conflated. The books don't spend a ton of time on them, but they seem able to pass as human, Merry and Pippin describe them looking like some of the sketchy looking travelers from the Prancing Pony, and IIRC some of Saruman's thugs on the Scouring of the Shire are also suggested to be goblin-men.

Uruks are consistently described as bigger, tougher, more warlike, and more sun resistant than normal orcs. They're also generally only a fraction of the total orc forces utilized, though whether this is because of expense, normal orcs being better suited to some tasks, or that normal orcs have large endemic populations and are readily available where uruks only ever seem to occur around major evil figures like Sauron and Saruman is I think unclear.


Regardless, I don't think Sauron attempting to generate better orcs in the Second Age is much of a lore stretch. Having corrupted elf followers who are still discernably elves is, but not an unreasonable one. Exploring the orc-elf connection would certainly be an interesting thing for the show to do, and very much in keeping with wanting to break down some of Tolkien's hard race lines.

[KorvinStarmast]

Galadriel gets some character growth

Didn't see anything noteworthy.

and the Numenor plot, which was threatening to stall out, does the exact opposite.

Yes, that was nice.

Also more dwarves, which the show is doing very well. Dwarves often kinda get short shrift in fantasy, it's nice to see very dwarfy Dwarves as good, sympathetic characters.

Short shrift? But I loved the rock singing/rock music bit. Nice addition to the lore IMO.

The Mordor Housing Development remains the most engaging plotline though. There's more action, it's higher stakes, and it's the place where evil is an active force, not just crummy attitudes.

Yes, the old man at the end's reveal was nice as a segue into darker things to come.

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I'm pretty sure Adar is not Sauron. Adar is, I think, exactly what he looks like: an elf. Remember that orcs are twisted elves. Well who's to say that all the elves required that much twisting? Or that orcs were only made the one time? He may literally be a father of orcs.

It's not even a huge lore stretch, at least in basic concept. Morgoth made orcs to be sure, but Sauron and Saruman both tinkered with and "improved" the breed. Starting (or continuing) that process would make sense, the sun is clearly a huge problem for orcs, and one that Sauron would have had ample time to consider solving by now.

Plausible.

Even Elrond instantly memorizing and immediately grokking the significance of the dwarven nursery rhyme was a flex.

Yeah, that was nice. (I am not sure what the term "was a flex" means, but I think it's a compliment).

[Divayth Fyr]

Have they shown Cirdan yet? Does he have a beard?

They didn't. Elros sported a beard in a painting, and I think the statue of Earendil had one as well.

Galadriel gets some character growth

She does?

[Psyren]

Yeah, that was nice. (I am not sure what the term "was a flex" means, but I think it's a compliment).

Yeah, was meant to be complimentary towards elven nosiness perception and insight.

She does?

Yes, she does. Numenor teaches her that she can't bludgeon her way through every obstacle, and that maybe rolling Persuasion once in a while instead of exclusively Intimidate might actually have a benefit now and then.

[Tyndmyr]

It's been generations since they took against the elves. Elves are not allowed on Numenor. ONE SINGLE ELF shows up, shipwrecked for all intents and purposes, and wants to leave (until she wants the queen to give her an army instead). This is not at all a credible reason for the people of Numenor to think they the elves want to take their jobs.

Yeah, this was frigging strange. "They took er jerbs" does not make any sense in context. This isn't an immigration issue or technology or something, it's a completely isolated society. Maybe isolationism or something would make sense, and distrust of outsiders. Jealousy of immortality or a feeling of being used as pawns, sure. But the jobs thing was remarkably central for something that made zero sense.

I've actually caught up, and I gotta say, it hasn't gotten better or more coherent. Galadriel's plot remains the roughest of the lot, but none of them are stand out great.

I know very little of the deep lore here but man am I enjoying this series. The stuff happening in the Southlands in particular, knowing what that region will eventually become, is deliciously tense and foreboding.

Knowing the outcome reduces, not enhances the tension, I think. I don't mind seeing some actual evil action, but so far we are pretty short on actually evil characters. The cast overall keeps expanding, but the bad guys are generally fairly generic.

[warty goblin]

Didn't see anything noteworthy.

She does?

She's spent the entire show being pushy, unsympathetic and demanding, tactics that have notably failed to get her results. Halbrand pointed this out, criticized her proposed revisions to her tactics, and gave her explicit advice on how to talk to people. She then took said advice, behaved with empathy and understanding, and succeeded where earlier she had failed.

When characters learn that they have a flaw, take steps to overcome that flaw, and in so doing replace failure with success, that's generally considered character growth. This is exactly what the show just did. It's almost like the writers are halfway competent and have a character arc in mind, where Galadriel develops from headstrong but ineffective badass jerk to wise leader.

[Psyren]

Knowing the outcome reduces, not enhances the tension, I think. I don't mind seeing some actual evil action, but so far we are pretty short on actually evil characters. The cast overall keeps expanding, but the bad guys are generally fairly generic.

Of course the villains are generic, there is not supposed to be any nuance here. Tolkien's orcs are omnicidal cannibals doing it for the evulz.

And I'm not sure if you realized it but this is a prequel, the outcome of nearly every major player is a known quantity. The fun lies in the "how" (and in a couple of cases, the "who") - not the "what."

[Divayth Fyr]

She's spent the entire show being pushy, unsympathetic and demanding, tactics that have notably failed to get her results. Halbrand pointed this out, criticized her proposed revisions to her tactics, and gave her explicit advice on how to talk to people. She then took said advice, behaved with empathy and understanding, and succeeded where earlier she had failed.

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She succeeded because of the deus ex machina petals. She was to be put on a boat after trying to force a meeting with the king. Then she overpowers the guards in one of the least believable bits of "choreography" so far, breaks into the kings tower, indeed does have a chat with Muriel, still was to be put on a boat, but then petals, and Muriel has a change of heart.

[Psyren]

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She succeeded because of the deus ex machina petals. She was to be put on a boat after trying to force a meeting with the king. Then she overpowers the guards in one of the least believable bits of "choreography" so far, breaks into the kings tower, indeed does have a chat with Muriel, still was to be put on a boat, but then petals, and Muriel has a change of heart.

Yes, a monarch changing their mind because of ominous portents is so unrealistic, especially in a mythological period of a mythological setting.

You do realize Nimloth isn't an ordinary tree right?

[Divayth Fyr]

Yes, a monarch changing their mind because of ominous portents is so unrealistic, especially in a mythological period of a mythological setting.

That is not my point - the point was the change of heart wasn't due to Galadriel's actions. Unless she jumped to the tree and started shaking it unnoticed :P

[Psyren]

That is not my point - the point was the change of heart wasn't due to Galadriel's actions. Unless she jumped to the tree and started shaking it unnoticed :P

It was both. A change of heart can be rooted in more than one thing. If she was still being a snooty jerk, no amount of warnings from the Valar would have mattered.

[TheSummoner]

I'll give you that she tried being less abrasive (after breaking out of prison and immediately breaking into the king's bedchamber, which I still maintain that she should've been executed for), but it was still what amounts to divine intervention that actually got her what she wanted. Not sure if that's better or worse given how absolutely unreasonable it was to expect a foreign queen to just give someone she's known for a couple of days an army to go fight a threat that's a huge distance away that the queen doesn't even have solid proof is even real. Sauron's a big enough deal that you wouldn't just ignore the possibility, but maybe try sending a smaller scouting force first to actually confirm Galadriel's claims before just giving the might of your nation to... basically a stranger.

And then no one in Numenor is shown having any sort of objection to this. It's firmly established that at the very least, a significant part of the population hates elves. They've deposed the previous king just because he was a friend of elves. Based on what's been shown, this announcement should be met with massive, immediate outcry and backlash. Now, I expect there will be repercussions later, after Miriel has left, but that doesn't make their behavior now any less of a contradiction of of what's been established. Even if there are enough Faithful willing to go along with it, the Kingsmen should be livid.

To top it all off the plan is... Accept volunteers and then set sail in 10 days? You're not going to train them to any level of competence in such a short time. Realistically, this is a suicide mission for anyone whose not already a trained soldier.