The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[Thrudd]

Yeah, that bugs me. The horse ride was just weird and gratuitous. Slow-mo/lingering shots of that style generally have very specific uses, often for moments of extreme importance. Or for very rapid things that would otherwise go unseen, but that the audience needs to know. Nothing that fits this scene. It's just...lacking in purpose.

Yes. That is one of the glaring flaws of this show, I've noticed. The horse ride and the escape through the woods in the last episode are the two most glaring examples to me, which brought me out of the show right away, but I'm sure we'd find more if looking more closely. They have the technical ability and the budget to create these beautiful shots with dramatic score that certainly belong in the epic fantasy, but they don't know when or why to use those scenes to serve the story. Those scenes and that music are communicating something to the audience, but their context in the ongoing story don't match what is being communicated. FOr example, the flight through the woods: slo mo with dramatically sad music, indicated that this is somebody's noble death or sacrifice, rather than the heart pounding escape (which was successful) it actually was. I kept expecting either the elf or the mother or both to get shot down by arrows- of course it turns out everyone escapes without even getting wounded. That scene should have been in normal speed, quick action cuts, higher tempo exciting music, pounding drums, etc.
I'm not sure if they are undisciplined and just going ham with the epic without understanding how to use it, or whether they are fulfilling a studio quota for shots like this every couple episodes regardless of whether the story has an appropriate scene for it (or both).

[pendell]

My only real quibble with the volunteers is how fast we went from "everyone hates elves" to "everyone will gleefully follow an elf and volunteer to fight and probably die for her." It's not a training problem, it's an issue of motivations.

In the books, it wasnt' everyone who hated elves; there were a minority of Numenoreans who still were elf-friends and called themselves the Faithful.

It may be that this expedition will ultimately prove the downfall of Numenor -- from Pharazon's perspective, the elf-friends will volunteer to leave the island while he's still there with his own supporters. Why fight a war to get the elf-friends off the island when they'll happily exile themselves out of altruism?

And , of course, once they're gone they'll never be allowed back.

If it works out that way, with Pharazon seizing power in their absence, trapping them in Middle-Earth, it will be a ploy worthy of Game of Thrones.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

If it works out that way, with Pharazon seizing power in their absence, trapping them in Middle-Earth, it will be a ploy worthy of Game of Thrones.

But first, he'll kill the king while he's in the jakes. Then, he'll go North West and run into the White Walkers Valar but it won't go well for him, because he hasn't got dragons on his side (Smaug held out for more money, Team Numenor left without him. If you are gonna go off the rails, go off the rails!)

Spoiler: the real reason it will end in tears

Show

(and Eru will change the world).

"You know nothing, Ar-Pharazon!"

[TheSummoner]

This will almost certainly turn out to be correct with the populist advisor staging an uprising or the like. There's way too much foreshadowing for that to be anything else.

My only real quibble with the volunteers is how fast we went from "everyone hates elves" to "everyone will gleefully follow an elf and volunteer to fight and probably die for her." It's not a training problem, it's an issue of motivations.

Oh, Pharazon is the real threat, definitely. I was trying to avoid using things the audience would see but the characters wouldn't or information from outside sources in my reasoning though.

And I'd say it's an issue of both. The plan is dumb because based on what's been shown, they're throwing together an army of civilians and the motivation is dumb because the complete 180 from "the knife ears gonna took our jerbs" to "let's fight for the elf"

The show is halfway through one season, the Numenorean Expeditionary Force plotline has barely begun. I think it's preemptive to say it's ignoring anything; for all we know sending a hasty volunteer force into unknown danger doesn't go well and this is a plot point. Sure would be a good way for Pharazon to get a lot of power and influence, showing up and kicking ass with the regular army when the NEF gets in over its head.

Agree and disagree. Information from future episodes might disprove some of the current speculation, but there's no reason we shouldn't speculate on it now using the information we have availible.

But let's suppose that everything goes perfectly smoothly and the NEF kicks orc ass from here to Rhun. Thus is entirely in keeping with the series, which ignores military training all the time, because its epic fantasy and epic fantasy in the traditional mold does not care about this sort of dumb background detail.

To wit, Frodo and the other Hobbits set off on a very difficult multiple month wilderness expedition having gone day camping a couple times. Nobody dies of dysentery, breaks an ankle, suffers sunstroke, or any other major issues until Mordor, where there simply is no drinking water.

In the realm of combat, all the Hobbits kill multiple orcs throughout the series, and their entire martial instruction is basically "here's some swords." Pippin, who tops out at like four feet, kills a roided up super troll in the books. During the Scouring of the Shire, a completely untrained Hobbit militia bests Saurman's force of violent thugs in open fighting, despite huge differences in size and familiarity with violence. Arguably the entire Silmarillion more or less opens this way, when the Noldor, whose entire combat experience in all of ever is stabbing some unarmed people and stealing their boats, show up beat and the ever-loving snot out if Morgoth's armies, only failing because they are kicking so much butt they massively over extend.

In the movies Merry kills several full sized Haradrim and orc warriors, which would make Boromir the most efficient contact instructor in history. Sam bests at least two goblins in Moria using a frying pan.

Now maybe you really dislike these gaping awful plot holes in the books and movies, I can't say. But the TV show isn't doing anything new in ignoring military training, it's not something that the series, or fantasy adventure in general, has ever cared a lot about. Nor has the audience; when I watched Return of the King in theaters, the audience cheered when Sam hacked through like three orcs in Cirith Ungol, even though the films never showed Sam learning how to fight multiple larger enemies at once in the local Hobbit dojo. Apparently this flagrant plot hole and violation of narrative logic did not bother anybody.

All good points. The only thing I'd keep in mind is that generally, I think most people find it more forgivable for the heroes of the story (as in most of your examples) to perform great feats that might be unrealistic than random nobodies.

FOr example, the flight through the woods: slo mo with dramatically sad music, indicated that this is somebody's noble death or sacrifice, rather than the heart pounding escape (which was successful) it actually was. I kept expecting either the elf or the mother or both to get shot down by arrows- of course it turns out everyone escapes without even getting wounded. That scene should have been in normal speed, quick action cuts, higher tempo exciting music, pounding drums, etc.
I'm not sure if they are undisciplined and just going ham with the epic without understanding how to use it, or whether they are fulfilling a studio quota for shots like this every couple episodes regardless of whether the story has an appropriate scene for it (or both).

I rewatched Fellowship of the Ring last night and I immediately thought of the final scenes in Moria when the Fellowship is escaping to the surface. It does something very similar with the slow motion and dramatic music, but it actually has weight since Gandalf just fell holding off the Balrog. It's a lot more impactful and the contrast of Boromir saying to give the hobbits a moment to grieve while Aragorn is urging them to keep moving because if they don't hurry, they're going to be swarmed by orcs and the sacrifice will be in vain. Aside from the tone of the scene, it's also worth contrasting the use of the slow motion. Even though everything is slowed down, in Fellowship, the orc arrows are still whizzing by at high speeds, narrowly missing. In RoP, they're slow enough that Arondir can grab them out of the air. It just looks silly.

In the books, it wasnt' everyone who hated elves; there were a minority of Numenoreans who still were elf-friends and called themselves the Faithful.

It may be that this expedition will ultimately prove the downfall of Numenor -- from Pharazon's perspective, the elf-friends will volunteer to leave the island while he's still there with his own supporters. Why fight a war to get the elf-friends off the island when they'll happily exile themselves out of altruism?

Even if Pharazon is canny enough to see it as an opportunity, the majority of the Kingsmen won't have that perspective. To them, Miriel announcing that they're going to help Galadriel would be a massive scandal. There should've been massive outcry against that.

If it works out that way, with Pharazon seizing power in their absence, trapping them in Middle-Earth, it will be a ploy worthy of Game of Thrones.

Game of Thrones (at least the book and the good seasons) had proper setups for its payoffs.

[pendell]

Even if Pharazon is canny enough to see it as an opportunity, the majority of the Kingsmen won't have that perspective. To them, Miriel announcing that they're going to help Galadriel would be a massive scandal. There should've been massive outcry against that.

Numenor isn't a democracy. The concepts of "Free press" and "loyal opposition" are several millenia in the future. So I wouldn't expect a massive outcry in the streets at this action.

-- The Elf-friends, small and great, will support it and volunteer in large numbers.
-- Commoner-class King's Men will probably say "eh, if Elf-friends want to go off and get themselves killed on a fool crusade it's no skin off my nose." They can then move to preparing for the inevitable auctioning off of their property and other goods when they never return. From the perspective of King's Men who have the "elves took our jobs" attitude , having a significant portion of job competitors whom they don't particularly like leaving for possibly forever has no downside. When the Bagginses of the world go off to war the Sackville-Bagginses make maximum profit out of it.

-- The noble King's Men are no doubt already plotting to take advantage of the Queen's absence so again, they have no reason either to oppose her leaving or to tip their hands via open opposition and get clapped into a dungeon for their pains. I'm not sure of the exact legal codes in place in Numenor, but there's a pretty good chance that openly questioning the Queen's wish is legally treason or related crime. So they will conceal their dissent until the opportune moment.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheSummoner]

They deposed the previous king for far less than Miriel is doing. That is the state of Numenor and the opinion of the populace when it comes to elves. Given that, do you really believe there would be absolutely no public outcry against her decision? It being a monarchy doesn't matter when they know full well they can get rid of the monarch and have done it once already. Not saying they'd have immediately rise up against her, but the reaction wouldn't be general acceptance.

[pendell]

They deposed the previous king for far less than Miriel is doing. That is the state of Numenor and the opinion of the populace when it comes to elves. Given that, do you really believe there would be absolutely no public outcry against her decision? It being a monarchy doesn't matter when they know full well they can get rid of the monarch and have done it once already. Not saying they'd have immediately rise up against her, but the reaction wouldn't be general acceptance.

Again, why fight a war or risk a coup to throw her out of the country when she'll leave the country herself if we can just be patient for a few days?

Not to mention, given just how badly Galadriel spanked the Numenorean guards there's a pretty good chance that if we mount a coup while she's next to the throne she'll kill all the rebel mooks by herself.

Villains almost always lose in fair combat against the heroes, so they have to win by taking the least risks possible, turning every setback and every opportunity to their advantage.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

So, I've been thinking about the episode and I present a steaming hot take:

SWIMMING TO MIDDLE-EARTH
GALADRIEL'S INTERNAL MONOLOGUE

... they're going to Valinor! I'm not ready to go to Valinor! I have business that I must attend to!
... they're not going to turn the boat around and they're not going to give me a lifeboat, so what now?
... I know! When Elfwing escaped from Maedhros by jumping into the sea, Ulmo turned her into a fish! My cause is no less noble than hers, so why not? The Valar favor the bold!
*SPLASH*
:paddling: ... turning ... into fish ... any minute now ...
:paddling: ... always .. wanted.. to see .. the world under the ocean.
:paddling: ... They'll call me... the little mermaid ...
:paddling: .. still .. plus arms legs minus fins scales ...
:paddling: ... I'm not turning into a fish.
:more paddling: Sawa
:much paddling later: ULMO WHEN I GET OUT OF MANDOS I PROMISE YOU oh.. Hello?
A ship! I'm saved!

THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER, IN VALINOR:

Galadriel (to Ulmo): Great Father of waters, I've always wondered. When I dove into the ocean to escape a desperate plight, both for myself and middle-earth, why didn't you change me into a fish to save me?

ULMO: WHY SHOULD I DO THAT WHEN THERE WAS A PERFECTLY SERVICEABLE BOAT IN SWIMMING DISTANCE?
Galadriel: ...
ULMO: MOST ELVES TRAVEL ON BOATS IN WATER. IT'S THE DONE THING.


This has been a Pendell playwrights production! I hope you enjoyed it!

:bows:

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[ecarden]

More broadly, the claim that they're fighting the war for Galadriel or the elves just seems straightforwardly incorrect to me. Here's the speech that's given explaining what she's going to do to her court:

"I would neither command, nor invite you to any danger I myself would not face. And so, I've decided to personally escort the elf to Middle Earth. To aid our mortal brethren are besieged in the southlands."

The only mention of elves in there is the one who's leaving.

Then in pitching the mission to the crowd, the question is:

"Who is willing to commit themselves to our Queen Regent's protection?"

Again, no mention of fighting for elves. Even before that, she references the judgment of the Valar and whether they will live up to the example of their fathers, who earned Numenor by fighting the same forces which it is claimed rise in the Southlands.

Her argument is 'the Valar have revealed that our ancient enemy rises in the south, I go to face them, getting rid of the woman whose presence aggravates you and fight our ancient enemy. Will you accompany me and live up to your ancestry, or stay here and be revealed for a coward?'

[Talakeal]

So, I've been thinking about the episode and I present a steaming hot take:

SWIMMING TO MIDDLE-EARTH
GALADRIEL'S INTERNAL MONOLOGUE

... they're going to Valinor! I'm not ready to go to Valinor! I have business that I must attend to!
... they're not going to turn the boat around and they're not going to give me a lifeboat, so what now?
... I know! When Elfwing escaped from Maedhros by jumping into the sea, Ulmo turned her into a fish! My cause is no less noble than hers, so why not? The Valar favor the bold!
*SPLASH*
:paddling: ... turning ... into fish ... any minute now ...
:paddling: ... always .. wanted.. to see .. the world under the ocean.
:paddling: ... They'll call me... the little mermaid ...
:paddling: .. still .. plus arms legs minus fins scales ...
:paddling: ... I'm not turning into a fish.
:more paddling: Sawa
:much paddling later: ULMO WHEN I GET OUT OF MANDOS I PROMISE YOU oh.. Hello?
A ship! I'm saved!

THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER, IN VALINOR:

Galadriel (to Ulmo): Great Father of waters, I've always wondered. When I dove into the ocean to escape a desperate plight, both for myself and middle-earth, why didn't you change me into a fish to save me?

ULMO: WHY SHOULD I DO THAT WHEN THERE WAS A PERFECTLY SERVICEABLE BOAT IN SWIMMING DISTANCE?
Galadriel: ...
ULMO: MOST ELVES TRAVEL ON BOATS IN WATER. IT'S THE DONE THING.


This has been a Pendell playwrights production! I hope you enjoyed it!

:bows:

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

I am pretty sure there is also a joke to be had about how Galadriel inherited Lothlorien when the previous ruler drowned after jumping off a boat heading to Valinor.

[Vinyadan]

To wit, Frodo and the other Hobbits set off on a very difficult multiple month wilderness expedition having gone day camping a couple times. Nobody dies of dysentery, breaks an ankle, suffers sunstroke, or any other major issues until Mordor, where there simply is no drinking water.

In the realm of combat, all the Hobbits kill multiple orcs throughout the series, and their entire martial instruction is basically "here's some swords." Pippin, who tops out at like four feet, kills a roided up super troll in the books. During the Scouring of the Shire, a completely untrained Hobbit militia bests Saurman's force of violent thugs in open fighting, despite huge differences in size and familiarity with violence. Arguably the entire Silmarillion more or less opens this way, when the Noldor, whose entire combat experience in all of ever is stabbing some unarmed people and stealing their boats, show up beat and the ever-loving snot out if Morgoth's armies, only failing because they are kicking so much butt they massively over extend.

The Hobbits were not alone. The only Hobbit to really be able to handle things on his own was Bilbo. Otherwise, the Hobbits, when unaccompanied, always find themselves in trouble. They don't get dysentheria, but they almost get drowned or eaten by a tree and put forever to sleep by a ghost, and need someone to save them. They then get some amazing guides in Aragorn and Gandalf, and tough, experienced, and reliable people like Legolas, Gimli and Boromir to keep them out of trouble. Afterwards, the two Hobbit pairs learn to help each other and seize the moment, but they had already been on the road for months (and Merry and Pippin are still lucky enough to be found by Treebeard, while Frodo and Sam are greatly helped by the way Orcs keep fighting each other, plus the conflicted Gollum factor).

Also, I doubt sunstroke was ever an option. It's October when Frodo gets stabbed by the Nazgul, and March when he gets punctured by Shelob. There is a fantasy equivalent of a sprained ankle in the Hobbit, however, and that's Bombur falling asleep.

By the way, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli's long trek across Rohan was actually measured on a military manual. It's a difficult speed to maintain, but it's possible in the real world.

Also, Pippin takes out a troll, but the troll wasn't minding him, as he was about to bite Beregond's neck; Pippin then gets crushed by the falling troll and passes out. It's a brave action, but it doesn't denote excessive skill in combat.

About the Hobbit militia, Saruman's men were badly armed, outnumbered, and hadn't been able to break the resistance of Tookland; they did not know the Hobbit well, and were not guided by someone used to war (in other words: they weren't soldiers, just ruffians). They also routinely fell into traps, and did not have real control of the territory (which in the end was full of Hobbit hunters). Add to this a very important truth learnt by Pippin and explained by him to Denethor: even a great warrior can be killed by a single arrow.

That's an interesting note about the Noldor, although the Silmarillion actually explains why the Noldor won (with factors that weren't merely physical) and Feanor's ignorance and passion as he pressed forward. It also explains why the Noldor had started forging weapons even in Aman (Melkor convinced them).

In the movies Merry kills several full sized Haradrim and orc warriors, which would make Boromir the most efficient contact instructor in history. Sam bests at least two goblins in Moria using a frying pan.

Now maybe you really dislike these gaping awful plot holes in the books and movies, I can't say. But the TV show isn't doing anything new in ignoring military training, it's not something that the series, or fantasy adventure in general, has ever cared a lot about. Nor has the audience; when I watched Return of the King in theaters, the audience cheered when Sam hacked through like three orcs in Cirith Ungol, even though the films never showed Sam learning how to fight multiple larger enemies at once in the local Hobbit dojo. Apparently this flagrant plot hole and violation of narrative logic did not bother anybody.

Those were some serious departures from the books. I think they only were there to lighten the mood and grant the watchers an high. In the books, in Moria Sam kills his first Orc, but he gets a long cut on his head, which is then examined to make sure it isn't poisoned. In Cirith Ungol, he doesn't fight like that: a lone Orc thinks that there is a great fighter on the stairs, a Man or Elf, and runs away as Sam approaches. Sam has to fight Snaga in Frodo's room instead, in a way similar to the one in the movie, but more violent and detailed.

[Sapphire Guard]

Don't forget the magic swords which mean they can deal wounds to creatures that would normally resist them (see book troll in Moria.)

LOTR has some of the most realistic travelling I've seen in a book, they're constantly getting lost or turned around, made miserable by midges (the Midgewater marshes are named that for a reason), Aragorn, peerless survivalist that he is, gets lost on the way to Rivendell, they reference the pain of walking a long way on stony ground frequently, carrying their boats past Rauros is very tiring, the magic fire wizard can't magic a fire if he has nothing to burn, and when they're going full tilt to Rivendell Aragorn mentions that while he can hunt for food if necessary, that would mean stopping for hours, which they can't afford because Frodo's wound is too urgent.

[Tyndmyr]

FOr example, the flight through the woods: slo mo with dramatically sad music, indicated that this is somebody's noble death or sacrifice, rather than the heart pounding escape (which was successful) it actually was. I kept expecting either the elf or the mother or both to get shot down by arrows- of course it turns out everyone escapes without even getting wounded. That scene should have been in normal speed, quick action cuts, higher tempo exciting music, pounding drums, etc.

That scene felt like they were trying to replicate Boromir's sacrifice superficially, without any deeper understanding of the scenes. There have been a few moments where it felt like they were leaning on mirroring the original films like that.

They're trying to match that original feel, but it's not quite 100% right.

Villains almost always lose in fair combat against the heroes, so they have to win by taking the least risks possible, turning every setback and every opportunity to their advantage.

If we're goin' genre aware, villains are essentially always successful in the first part of their evil plan, no matter how ludicrous and over the top. They can't truly be defeated by the heroes until it appears all is lost!

[KorvinStarmast]

Her argument is 'the Valar have revealed that our ancient enemy rises in the south, I go to face them, getting rid of the woman whose presence aggravates you and fight our ancient enemy. Will you accompany me and live up to your ancestry, or stay here and be revealed for a coward?'

I can go with that. Thanks for getting into the nitty gritty details.

I am pretty sure there is also a joke to be had about how Galadriel inherited Lothlorien when the previous ruler drowned after jumping off a boat heading to Valinor.

Almost like a boating accidents on a lake/stream in/near the Natalie Woods. (Sorry, this is a reference to both Bored of the Rings and an unfortunate accidental death of a favorite movie star)

[Aedilred]

I feel like this sums up my feelings about a lot of criticism that I see about this show on this forum.

I agree. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms to be made, but many of the criticisms are just this.

[TheSummoner]

So it turns out the civilian volunteers with no established military training... Had no military training. Interesting.

[Talakeal]

Spoiler: Episode Six Theory

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Pale guy is Sarumon?

[pendell]

Did they say why Miriel isn't using the actual army? Or does Numenor have a regular army? I would expect them to, but fantasy some times does weird things. Looking at you, George Lucas, writing a story where a galactic civilization exists for a thousand years with no conventional armed forces.

IGN has a spoilered review of episode 5. Looks like the show is finding its feet and all the pieces are coming together. It still suffers from the fact they're trying to compress thousands of years of history to a single person's lifetime. It takes generations for attitudes to change, sometimes, which is why the shift from "Elves took our jobs" to "save Middle earth!" seems so abrupt.

Spoiler: The Stranger

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My money's on the stranger being Gandalf. None of the other wizards had anything to do with hobbits; Saruman bought pipe-weed from them but he doesn't seem to have had a close relationship with him. Maybe this is the start of Gandalf's relationship with the hobbits that will make him more compassionate and them more wise?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

Thing is, the Wizards aka Istari explicitly came to Middle-earth on a ship in around TA 1400--so not only are they thousands of year early if any of them exist in this series, they didn't arrive by literally falling from the sky!

[Vinyadan]

Did they say why Miriel isn't using the actual army? Or does Numenor have a regular army? I would expect them to, but fantasy some times does weird things. Looking at you, George Lucas, writing a story where a galactic civilization exists for a thousand years with no conventional armed forces.

That's something that comes up in the tale of Erendis and Aldarion (Unfinished Tales). Aldarion is the son and heir to King Meneldur of Numenor, and is notable for his sea travels to Middle-Earth. He is the first to observe and inform Numenor of the fact that the Men of Middle-Earth are troubled by fear again, and memories of the First Age are fading among them. He also delivers to Tar-Meneldur a document containing a secret request for help by Gil-galad, where Gil-galad reveals explicitly that a servant of Morgoth has awoken in the East, and he one day will become too strong for the Elves to resist him. He then explains a defense plan, which requires to hold on to Eriador and create a naval base at Vinyalonde, to then fortify the area that will become the surroundings of Isengard, but neither Gil-galad nor Cirdan have the people for that, and the help of Numenor is needed.
Tar-Meneldur is extremely troubled by this request, because it means arming a peaceful population and giving power to military commanders that will massacre for conquer and glory; he therefore sees both the moral quandary of war and an incoming shift in the mentality of Numenor, and the alternative is that he accepts to pretend nothing is wrong, until the enemy comes to Numenor and slaughters an unarmed population. In the end, he abdicates and leaves the choice to Aldarion.

Aldarion becomes king in 883, while Tar-Palantir (Miriel's father) dies in 3255.

[TheSummoner]

Did they say why Miriel isn't using the actual army? Or does Numenor have a regular army? I would expect them to, but fantasy some times does weird things. Looking at you, George Lucas, writing a story where a galactic civilization exists for a thousand years with no conventional armed forces.

IGN has a spoilered review of episode 5. Looks like the show is finding its feet and all the pieces are coming together. It still suffers from the fact they're trying to compress thousands of years of history to a single person's lifetime. It takes generations for attitudes to change, sometimes, which is why the shift from "Elves took our jobs" to "save Middle earth!" seems so abrupt.

Canonically, at its height, Numenor was the military super power of the time with a military so powerful that Sauron chose to surrender and corrupt them further from within rather than engage in a direct war he was unlikely to win. In this, nothing's been established.

Spoiler: The Stranger

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My money's on the stranger being Gandalf. None of the other wizards had anything to do with hobbits; Saruman bought pipe-weed from them but he doesn't seem to have had a close relationship with him. Maybe this is the start of Gandalf's relationship with the hobbits that will make him more compassionate and them more wise?

Spoiler

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Gandalf was always compassionate. You're probably right about the direction they're going with it, but "undermine an established character so our original character can be responsible for X" (in this case, Gandalf being compassionate or having a soft spot for hobbits in particular) is something that always rubs me the wrong way.

Thing is, the Wizards aka Istari explicitly came to Middle-earth on a ship in around TA 1400--so not only are they thousands of year early if any of them exist in this series, they didn't arrive by literally falling from the sky!

The wizards were explicitly wearing the guise of old men because they didn't want to freak out those they encountered while in Middle-earth. But giant flaming meteor, I guess.

[Vinyadan]

The wizards were explicitly wearing the guise of old men because they didn't want to freak out those they encountered while in Middle-earth. But giant flaming meteor, I guess.

Is the blue wizard adopted by a human family that calls him Clark?

[TheSummoner]

Is the blue wizard adopted by a human family that calls him Clark?

He's working at a newspaper now, from what I hear.

[Psyren]

Thing is, the Wizards aka Istari explicitly came to Middle-earth on a ship in around TA 1400--so not only are they thousands of year early if any of them exist in this series, they didn't arrive by literally falling from the sky!

Blue Wizards showed up in 2nd age per Tolkien (SA 1600, around when the OR was forged), so he could be one of them. And their means of arrival in ME is not specified.

[Tyndmyr]

He's working at a newspaper now, from what I hear.

Can't be, that guy wears spectacles.

[ecarden]

So it turns out the civilian volunteers with no established military training... Had no military training. Interesting.

I mean, again, I'm not sure where you're getting that? They get a bunch of volunteers and Elendil directly tells Isildur that he's selecting amongst those who've served in the Sea Guard, the Queen's Guard, or various guilds. Now, my theory that all the civilians have some training seems disproven, as does the theory that they're just planning to throw civilians at them. They asked for volunteers, then selected those with military experience/training, at least for the most part.

Given that we're told the Horsemen's Guild is acting as cavalry, my expectation would be that the guilds (like many historic guilds) expect and require training of their members. Now, we certainly see them practicing and training and organizing themselves into a new force, but I don't think that tells us much.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is the blue wizard adopted by a human family that calls him Clark?

Nah, by a Harfoot family, when they found their new home in Smallville.

Comments on Ep 5:
That's how Elindil arrives in Middle Earth with only three ships?
Isildur doesn't report the attempt at arson? (WTF?)
Numenorean uniforms: shiny.

Spoiler: More comments

Show

"Who'll defend the tower with me?"
Some of us, but not all of us.
"Lift your aim"
OK, Arondir: you mastered the bow hundreds of years ago. Your instructional method is lacking. But your encouragement is at least worthwhile

"You are Sauron, aren't you?"
"For ten pieces of silver, I can be!" (OK, I wish he'd said that, but he didn't).

Lore Speculation: What we seem to be seeing is that the war between Sauron and Elves (around 1700 Second Age), has been left there, and the forging of the Rings of Power moved to the end of the Second Age. Maybe.

They have 500 armed men, and horses, and only need three ships? (Or only need five ships?) Based on the sizes of the ships in proportion to the men and women on them: they are gonna need a bigger boat, three times. (Or all of the horses are in a bag of holding - of course you put that in the hold of the ship, it's a bag of holding! Right. I'll get my hat and coat ... )

Sword practice: yeah, we get it, Galadriel is an amazing warrior. As an arms instructor? Not so good. Been a general for centuries but doesn't actually know how to train anyone. *facepalm*

Elendil: OK, for no reason, be hard hearted to my son. Don't try to heal the wound as I head off to sea.

Miriel: "Sure, I'll take that guy with me who is Oh So Mysterious! And I'll live with a loss of 40% of my fleet and still head east without kicking a lot of people's butts. But let it be known, one and all, when I next hold court I will have the writers flayed in the town square!" (I wish she'd actually said that last sentence)

Tar Palantir: "Don't go to Middle Earth, Miriel. It'll be dark."
That worked about as well as Caitlyn telling Ned Stark "Don't Go to King's Landing" ... yep, that went well.

H: I'd rather stay here and make swords than reclaim my position as king.
G: You'll come with me because I'll guilt you into it.
H: OK, will you throw in a bit more incentive, like some steamy romance, to sway me?
G: Handshake in full armor: is that hot enough for you?
H: Sure! Let's go and invade!

Sing a song of Harfoot
Sing a Song of Numenor.
Pretty sure I'm not getting the soundtrack to this one.

I am going to reveal who the Stranger Is!

Spoiler: Yes, really!

Show

He's Jon Snow, because he thinks that this is a continuation of the themes of Fire(Meteor) and Ice(That frozen water trick). A bit surprised they didn't have Pat Benatar singing that (Fire and Ice) in the background as he did that freeze the water thing that freaked Nori out. George RR Martin will get a cameo as a dwarf somewhere.

Nice doggie! Wait, not nice doggie! Scram!

What's for dinner? Fungus, fungus, and more fungus. (Foreshadow's Sam Gamgees "... and more Lembas bread" line).

Where did the Harfoots get an iron tea kettle? They are nomads who live off the land.

Snails: crunchy and yummy.

And now the big reveal behind the curtain of Ivy: a picture of a sword that was carved into the rock thousands of years ago. Yes, we just now noticed it was there.

Durin: My wife needs a new dinner table.
FFS, you are a prince of the dwarves, you don't need to guilt trip an elf to get her a new dinner table!

Yeah, Gil Galad the High King, is a lying, deceitful {censored}. Come to think of it, so is Elrond, so is Durin, so is Halbrand, so is Pharazon, so is the old man, so is Nori, so is almost everyone.
Except maybe Bronwyn. And maybe Arondir.

Wait, that's why elves like mithril?
While I like the legend of the famous battle on the mountain top, it rather corrupts the lore of the Silmarils

A: Here, expose your arm to the sun.
O: Orc's arm begins to cook.
A: Does that hurt?
O: Yes.
A: Gee, I wish you could enjoy it like I do.
O: *Sizzle*
A: OK, sure, let's wrap your arm again.

Of course they attack at night! They are orcs. Amazon doesn't have the budget for Battle of Helm's Deep, so we get unarmored peasant levies in a tower versus armed orcs with torches. Get the popcorn and the airsick bag.

A: Yes, you need to show me how evil you can be to join my gang.

While I am glad that they advanced the plot a bit, and Miriel is showing a bit of backbone (She's Queen Regent) the pieces are fitting together clunkily.

Isildur: OK, lifesaving merit badge, good show.

Blue Wizards showed up in 2nd age per Tolkien (SA 1600, around when the OR was forged), so he could be one of them. And their means of arrival in ME is not specified.

When did Tolkien write that? It's not in the appendices, and it's not in the Silmarillion.

[Divayth Fyr]

When did Tolkien write that? It's not in the appendices, and it's not in the Silmarillion.

History of Middle-Earth notes the idea.

The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romestamo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [? dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

And let us be honest - between what the Istari in general were supposed to be, the means the others came to Middle-Earth, and the possibility of them coming on the same boat that brought back Glorfindel, I don't think dropping down in a meteor is something really fitting...

Also, who thought this idea for the backstory of Mithril was a good one? They just had to ruin the one good plot thread (Durin/Elrond) with a convoluted reason for Elves wanting the stuff and a convoluted reason for it working in the first place...

[runeghost]

Did they say why Miriel isn't using the actual army? Or does Numenor have a regular army? I would expect them to, but fantasy some times does weird things. Looking at you, George Lucas, writing a story where a galactic civilization exists for a thousand years with no conventional armed forces.

IGN has a spoilered review of episode 5. Looks like the show is finding its feet and all the pieces are coming together. It still suffers from the fact they're trying to compress thousands of years of history to a single person's lifetime. It takes generations for attitudes to change, sometimes, which is why the shift from "Elves took our jobs" to "save Middle earth!" seems so abrupt.

This aspect of the show is one where House of the Dragon is making me think the Rings of Power showrunners may have missed a bet. Given the canonical lifespans of the main characters, there's no need to hyper-compress the timeline.

Numenoreans live for centuries. Elves are immortal. Long-lives dwarves of Durin's line could reach 300. While according to the Tale of Years in the LotR the full arc of the Second Age takes over 2000 years from Annatar's first appearance to Sauron's defeat on the slopes of Mt. Doom, it could have been possible to compress things down to a Numenorean lifespan or two without cramming everything together.

You could do that with each season covering roughly a century.

Season 1 - Forging of the Rings of Power
Season 2 - War of the Elves & Sauron
Season 3 - Enter the Ringwraiths
Season 4 - Downfall of Numenor
Season 5 - The Last Alliance

Five centuries is enough time to go through two generations of dwarves, and 2-3 generations of Dunedain. The Elves stay for the whole thing and provide a sense of stability and continuity. We first meet Amandil and Tar-Palantir in Seasons 1-2, Elendil, Ar-Pharazon, and Miriel in 2-3, and Isildur and Anarion in 3-4. We can have 2 or 3 generations of dwarves and their own struggles with their ring during that time.

[Thrudd]

When did Tolkien write that? It's not in the appendices, and it's not in the Silmarillion.

Apparently the last year of his life, now published in "The Peoples of Middle Earth" in the chapter "Last Writings". He wrote an outline in a note about how they came in the second age to the people of the south and east, and apparently were able to prevent Sauron from having quite as much influence in those nations there as he might have otherwise, which made sure the Last Alliance was able to be successful.