The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[TheSummoner]

Can't be, that guy wears spectacles.

Ah, my mistake. Gotta admit though, there is a similarity. I wonder if they're cousins or something.

I mean, again, I'm not sure where you're getting that? They get a bunch of volunteers and Elendil directly tells Isildur that he's selecting amongst those who've served in the Sea Guard, the Queen's Guard, or various guilds. Now, my theory that all the civilians have some training seems disproven, as does the theory that they're just planning to throw civilians at them. They asked for volunteers, then selected those with military experience/training, at least for the most part.

Given that we're told the Horsemen's Guild is acting as cavalry, my expectation would be that the guilds (like many historic guilds) expect and require training of their members. Now, we certainly see them practicing and training and organizing themselves into a new force, but I don't think that tells us much.

We saw the training scene. Stick them in the gut with the pointy part and twist that'll kill an orc. You're not implying that those among the volunteers who are being drawn from guard units and would logically have training needed that part explained to them, are you? That'd be far worse than anything I read out of the scenes.

And yes, they are shown receiving some training, but recall that the criticism that sparked this entire conversation was

Accept volunteers and then set sail in 10 days? You're not going to train them to any level of competence in such a short time.

Not that they were going to just pick untrained civilians off the street and throw them into battle as you're implying, but that 10 days not enough to turn an untrained civilian competent soldier. That hasn't changed.

Also, who thought this idea for the backstory of Mithril was a good one? They just had to ruin the one good plot thread (Durin/Elrond) with a convoluted reason for Elves wanting the stuff and a convoluted reason for it working in the first place...

Mithril doesn't emit light in the first place. It has the appearance of silver that never loses its sheen. It'll reflect the hell out of it, but it doesn't give any off on its own.

[Vinyadan]

Now, if Glorfindel had come in in a meteor, that probably wouldn't have made that much of a difference. I can imagine him landing by Cirdan or visiting Gil-galad for the first time and everyone's eyes popping out of their heads. "Isn't that..?!"

[Thrudd]

We saw the training scene. Stick them in the gut with the pointy part and twist that'll kill an orc. You're not implying that those among the volunteers who are being drawn from guard units and would logically have training needed that part explained to them, are you? That'd be far worse than anything I read out of the scenes.

Yeah, that whole scene is pretty cringe. This is really bad writing. Sure, it makes sense for Galadriel to instruct people on something specific about orcs, when she's the only one who has actually seen and fought them before. That the writers thought that "stab them" and "keep moving" is the big strategy tip the warriors needed to face an unknown enemy is just one more point of evidence that these people are not very smart. Why can studios not find good writers? Or is it that the good writers don't like to take stupid notes from studio execs, and they hire the people who are more compliant and willing to compromise smart writing to make the suits happy? Or is it directors who have "creative vision" that won't consult with or compromise with the writers, even when the changes they want to make are idiotic? It's frustrating how good this could have been, with the budget and the technical ability to craft these visuals, if someone with some sense could have written the story and script.

[TheSummoner]

Yeah, that whole scene is pretty cringe. This is really bad writing. Sure, it makes sense for Galadriel to instruct people on something specific about orcs, when she's the only one who has actually seen and fought them before. That the writers thought that "stab them" and "keep moving" is the big strategy tip the warriors needed to face an unknown enemy is just one more point of evidence that these people are not very smart. Why can studios not find good writers? Or is it that the good writers don't like to take stupid notes from studio execs, and they hire the people who are more compliant and willing to compromise smart writing to make the suits happy? Or is it directors who have "creative vision" that won't consult with or compromise with the writers, even when the changes they want to make are idiotic? It's frustrating how good this could have been, with the budget and the technical ability to craft these visuals, if someone with some sense could have written the story and script.

I don't have much time to get into it right now, but there's A LOT I could pick apart with that scene. Just sticking to that one "stab, twist, gut" line for now though, that's terrible advice. Gut specifically means she's telling them to stab them in the stomach. Stomach wounds in a setting without modern medicine are incredibly fatal, but it's not an instant kill. It's a slow, brutal, painful way to die, but setting the horror of that aside what's relevant here is that the orc isn't dead. It can still potentially keep swinging and take you with it.

[pendell]

We saw the training scene. Stick them in the gut with the pointy part and twist that'll kill an orc. You're not implying that those among the volunteers who are being drawn from guard units and would logically have training needed that part explained to them, are you? That'd be far worse than anything I read out of the scenes.

It's called refresher training . When reservists are called up, they aren't just given guns and thrown into battle. They've been out of the game awhile; they're going to need a fast course to bring them back up to speed, and that includes making sure they remember the basics.

Be that as it may, ten days is too short a time. Even if they were ready to fight as individuals on day one they're still not trained as a unit, and can't be expected to be effective.

Normally, you integrated reservists as replacements into pre-existing formations who can show them the ropes until they're up to full speed. Entirely green units ... well, I hope they can get them some light fighting to blood them before throwing them into the Big Battle. This being hollywood, I suspect not.

I don't have much time to get into it right now, but there's A LOT I could pick apart with that scene. Just sticking to that one "stab, twist, gut" line for now though, that's terrible advice. Gut specifically means she's telling them to stab them in the stomach. Stomach wounds in a setting without modern medicine are incredibly fatal, but it's not an instant kill. It's a slow, brutal, painful way to die, but setting the horror of that aside what's relevant here is that the orc isn't dead. It can still potentially keep swinging and take you with it.

Have a look at this clip from Spartacus, especially 1:26 where the trainer is telling the gladiators when and where to stab someone. It's good advice. One concern I have is that this is for unarmored combat; I would assume orcs would be wearing chainmail or breastplates so the most vulnerable points would be protected. Roman Legionaries were trained differently - to stab at the stomach or slash at the kneecaps. You stab, you twist, knock 'em down, step on 'em on your way to the next one. So I think the training makes sense, at least on this one point.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ecarden]

We saw the training scene. Stick them in the gut with the pointy part and twist that'll kill an orc. You're not implying that those among the volunteers who are being drawn from guard units and would logically have training needed that part explained to them, are you? That'd be far worse than anything I read out of the scenes.

She explicitly says they haven't fought this foe. She's advising them on fighting orcs, because it's something she's done and they haven't. Her entire point is that the techniques they'd use against humans are a bad idea against orcs. If you thought that was the first time those people had taken up a blade, I don't know what to tell you. The point of the scene is that they're good, but untried against orcs and she's better and extremely experienced against orcs and is attempting to share that experience.

Hence the test of try to hit her and one of them succeeding, eventually. At the same time, she talks them through fighting orcs.

Now, quite a lot of that conversation and show is silly, but it's silly in the same way almost all 'medieval combat training' in films/tv is, in that it tends to default towards the theory that you're training for a duel or a wild melee, rather than a battle.

I didn't love the description scene, but my read on the point of that was much more on how tough the orcs were, which we've already seen.

[Thrudd]

She explicitly says they haven't fought this foe. She's advising them on fighting orcs, because it's something she's done and they haven't. Her entire point is that the techniques they'd use against humans are a bad idea against orcs. If you thought that was the first time those people had taken up a blade, I don't know what to tell you. The point of the scene is that they're good, but untried against orcs and she's better and extremely experienced against orcs and is attempting to share that experience.

Hence the test of try to hit her and one of them succeeding, eventually. At the same time, she talks them through fighting orcs.

Now, quite a lot of that conversation and show is silly, but it's silly in the same way almost all 'medieval combat training' in films/tv is, in that it tends to default towards the theory that you're training for a duel or a wild melee, rather than a battle.

I didn't love the description scene, but my read on the point of that was much more on how tough the orcs were, which we've already seen.

Except orcs aren't supposed to be that tough, individually, apart from a small number of special ones. An untrained woman and her kid without any real weapons were able to behead one of them. They're cowardly and only willing to take risks in numbers, and usually one man or elf warrior is worth at least a handful of them. The way they win is by swarming, in vast numbers. It would have been more useful for her to tell them apart their sunlight sensitivity- try to fight them in the light, warn them not to get separated or to follow orcs into the dark. Warn them to stick together, don't get separated where orcs can swarm you- keep shields handy because they like to take pot shots at you from the shadows with bows and arrows. Of course, this is a TV show where armor never actually works, so I guess that's a fair enough point, but it is still ridiculous. Increasingly, the reasoning and opinions, and therefore the actions, of all the characters are being shown to be quite nonsensical. It's a problem with writers. There's no reason that they have to obey film and TV tropes - they only do so because they aren't smart or creative enough to do otherwise, imo.

[Vinyadan]

Except orcs aren't supposed to be that tough, individually, apart from a small number of special ones. An untrained woman and her kid without any real weapons were able to behead one of them. They're cowardly and only willing to take risks in numbers, and usually one man or elf warrior is worth at least a handful of them. The way they win is by swarming, in vast numbers. It would have been more useful for her to tell them apart their sunlight sensitivity- try to fight them in the light, warn them not to get separated or to follow orcs into the dark. Warn them to stick together, don't get separated where orcs can swarm you- keep shields handy because they like to take pot shots at you from the shadows with bows and arrows. Of course, this is a TV show where armor never actually works, so I guess that's a fair enough point, but it is still ridiculous. Increasingly, the reasoning and opinions, and therefore the actions, of all the characters are being shown to be quite nonsensical. It's a problem with writers. There's no reason that they have to obey film and TV tropes - they only do so because they aren't smart or creative enough to do otherwise, imo.

I think they assume that most watchers aren't capable of telling the scene is silly, so they just go with the easiest solution for "X teaches them to fight". It's a pity, actually, because the instructions you gave would have grounded future fights, taught some about orcs, and created a real sense of danger, for example during the night, or if someone gets isolated, or if a party needs to enter a cave. In a way, it would have been foreboding.

[Aedilred]

Except orcs aren't supposed to be that tough, individually, apart from a small number of special ones. An untrained woman and her kid without any real weapons were able to behead one of them. They're cowardly and only willing to take risks in numbers, and usually one man or elf warrior is worth at least a handful of them. The way they win is by swarming, in vast numbers. It would have been more useful for her to tell them apart their sunlight sensitivity- try to fight them in the light, warn them not to get separated or to follow orcs into the dark. Warn them to stick together, don't get separated where orcs can swarm you- keep shields handy because they like to take pot shots at you from the shadows with bows and arrows. Of course, this is a TV show where armor never actually works, so I guess that's a fair enough point, but it is still ridiculous. Increasingly, the reasoning and opinions, and therefore the actions, of all the characters are being shown to be quite nonsensical. It's a problem with writers. There's no reason that they have to obey film and TV tropes - they only do so because they aren't smart or creative enough to do otherwise, imo.

Are we sure that orcs aren't supposed to be that tough? There seems to be no consistency in the "power level" of an orc across the various movies to date or even the books. Rather, an orc or group of orcs seems to be as menacing as the plot requires at any given moment. During portions of The Lord of the Rings they are essentially cannon fodder for our protagonists (albeit the martial portion of the Fellowship is a band of heroes all of whom are expert, veteran orc-killers) but there are times when they do present a threat, and during The Hobbit Thorin's company are either menaced or unfazed by large groups of orcs alternately.

The movies in particular are all over the place with this sort of stuff. At Helm's Deep they had vast numbers, but that was all weight and mass and their frontage was no wider than the elves', but they still broke their lines, both on the top of the wall and in the breach. Sam's exploits have already been noted in this thread.

As to the orc we saw previously in Bronwyn's house was defeated, but the impression that I formed (and I don't think I'm alone in that in this thread) was that that was a highly threatening encounter which Bronwyn and Theo were very lucky to survive, both of them very nearly died and it was surprising that they didn't. The threat of the orcs was enhanced by that scene, not diminished just because a kid and a woman managed to best one.

We don't really know anything about orcish physiology, either, except that they don't like the sun.

So overall I'm inclined to take what the characters say on board. Galadriel believes that orcs are opponents which requires a degree of specialist training to face and that the existing training of the Númenoreans may not be enough. We, the audience, have seen a billion orcs killed in a million different ways from the comfort of our sofa, so we might query this, but she's the expert and for the purposes of the scene, she may well be right.

I'm not going to deny that the ensuing "training scene" was silly though. Such scenes almost always are in movies or TV shows, but that excuse only goes so far.

[Keltest]

Orcs vary in toughness just like every other race. On the one hand you have the Mordor orcs especially bred and prepared for war giving Gondor a run for their money, on the other hand you have Golfimbul being decapitated by a hobbit with a club.

As a professional military orcs are described in the Hobbit as having aptitude for destructive and hostile things like weaponcrafting and tunnel digging, they just aren't easy to motivate.

[Thrudd]

Are we sure that orcs aren't supposed to be that tough? There seems to be no consistency in the "power level" of an orc across the various movies to date or even the books. Rather, an orc or group of orcs seems to be as menacing as the plot requires at any given moment. During portions of The Lord of the Rings they are essentially cannon fodder for our protagonists (albeit the martial portion of the Fellowship is a band of heroes all of whom are expert, veteran orc-killers) but there are times when they do present a threat, and during The Hobbit Thorin's company are either menaced or unfazed by large groups of orcs alternately.

The movies in particular are all over the place with this sort of stuff. At Helm's Deep they had vast numbers, but that was all weight and mass and their frontage was no wider than the elves', but they still broke their lines, both on the top of the wall and in the breach. Sam's exploits have already been noted in this thread.

As to the orc we saw previously in Bronwyn's house was defeated, but the impression that I formed (and I don't think I'm alone in that in this thread) was that that was a highly threatening encounter which Bronwyn and Theo were very lucky to survive, both of them very nearly died and it was surprising that they didn't. The threat of the orcs was enhanced by that scene, not diminished just because a kid and a woman managed to best one.

We don't really know anything about orcish physiology, either, except that they don't like the sun.

So overall I'm inclined to take what the characters say on board. Galadriel believes that orcs are opponents which requires a degree of specialist training to face and that the existing training of the Númenoreans may not be enough. We, the audience, have seen a billion orcs killed in a million different ways from the comfort of our sofa, so we might query this, but she's the expert and for the purposes of the scene, she may well be right.

I'm not going to deny that the ensuing "training scene" was silly though. Such scenes almost always are in movies or TV shows, but that excuse only goes so far.

In the books, individual normal orcs definitely aren't very tough. Even in the films, they are also only seen to be effective when vastly outnumbering their foes or attacking unarmed people, like in the Westfold. Occasionally, they have a force multiplier with them like some wargs or a troll, and there will be one or two captains that are comparable in strength and skill to a normal man, elf or dwarf, and in these cases they do more damage to their foes. They often try to lay ambushes, as they do to Isildur and his entourage, but usually need to run afterwards unless they also have huge numerical advantage (like at Osgiliath in the film). Groups of armed men or elves routinely handle normal orcs, even when outnumbered, with few casualties. But they always move in numbers, I'm pretty sure there is never just one or even a few found creeping around alone. They use tricks and traps and darkness, poison arrows, "devilish devices", etc. but mostly don't go toe to toe with warriors of the free folk. That is why Sauron and Saruman needed to breed special ones that would have a chance in open warfare.

The writers want a scene where Galadriel gets to show the Numenoreans how skilled she is. Nobody involved in the show knows enough about fighting nor about the lore of Middle Earth to write a scene where she gives them good advice or tells them anything useful that is particular to orcs. I will be surprised if they bother to even pay off the advice she gave in a later episode, and even if they do, the context in which "stab it in the guts" will be just the advice they needed will be so stupid that I will wish they hadn't. lol

[TheSummoner]

It's called refresher training . When reservists are called up, they aren't just given guns and thrown into battle. They've been out of the game awhile; they're going to need a fast course to bring them back up to speed, and that includes making sure they remember the basics.

For that to be the case, they'd have to have already undergone training prior to this, which still isn't supported by the show.

Have a look at this clip from Spartacus, especially 1:26 where the trainer is telling the gladiators when and where to stab someone.

Ok, let's have a look.

Red - The instant kill - the heart and the neck
Blue - The cripple - The limbs
Yellow - The slow kill - The side and the stomach

"The slow kill may have enough left in him to kill you before he dies"

Set aside for a moment that we're addressing criticism of Hollywood sword training with more Hollywood sword training, if this was supposed disprove my point about stomach wounds, it's done quite the opposite. The trainer makes exactly the point I made - that stomach wounds are not an instant kill and the opponent can still potentially keep swinging and take the attacker with him.

Just for fun, let's apply the lesson from your clip to Fellowship of the Ring. Lurtz is definitely far tougher than the average orc, but the cripple didn't stop him and neither did the slow kill. Aragorn followed through before Lurtz could do the take him down before he dies part, but it was the instant kill that finished the fight.

Now, I think the Spartacus lesson is a bit overly simple, but it definitely is far better advice than "stab, twist, gut".

She explicitly says they haven't fought this foe. She's advising them on fighting orcs, because it's something she's done and they haven't. Her entire point is that the techniques they'd use against humans are a bad idea against orcs.

Does stick them in the gut with the pointy end and twist it have some greater application against orcs than it would against men? Here I was thinking it'd be roughly as effective against either. Or against dwarves or elves for that matter. The four aren't the same, but they're pretty similar in terms of what kills them. Unless there's some obscure Tolkien lore that I'm unfamiliar with, they've got the same vital organs in the same places in their bodies. Some are stronger or tougher than others, but on average they're more or less on par with each other in those regards.

As for all the points others have made about the sort of tactics orcs use, those would all be really good things to teach, but that's not what Galadriel was teaching. She was teaching "stab, twist, gut" and "fight with your feet, not your arms" and "swordsmanship is about balance rather than strength" and the only one specific to orcs is "never trust brute force to best an orc, it's often easiest to outmaneuver them"

If you dig through it, you could pick some good advice out of that, but it's buried under absolute nonsense. Mind your footwork is good advice. Prioritize your feet over your arms is really dumb advice. Orcs are sluggish and brutish, you'll have more success trying to beat them with skill and speed than raw strength is good advice. Never try to overpower them is really dumb advice.

If you thought that was the first time those people had taken up a blade, I don't know what to tell you. The point of the scene is that they're good, but untried against orcs and she's better and extremely experienced against orcs and is attempting to share that experience.

Hence the test of try to hit her and one of them succeeding, eventually. At the same time, she talks them through fighting orcs.

They fought her four or five on one and she danced effortlessly around them. That doesn't show them as being good, that shows them all as being utterly green. They had a massive advantage and the best one of them could manage was a small cut on her sleeve. She reaches forward and grabs the sword out of a guy's hand while he gawks cluelessly at one point.

Maybe this means they match up to the standard of the Numenorean prison guards who shuffle into a prison cell single file if you lightly shove one of them, but in no way does that scene make the recruits look like they have any idea what they're doing.

The writers want a scene where Galadriel gets to show the Numenoreans how skilled she is.

Yup. Said it before and I'mma keep saying it. Making all of the other characters around X look incompetent does not make X look competent.

I will be surprised if they bother to even pay off the advice she gave in a later episode, and even if they do, the context in which "stab it in the guts" will be just the advice they needed will be so stupid that I will wish they hadn't. lol

The worst part is that if they did, it would be one of the only pay offs with a proper setup. "Recruit is taught something and later uses it in a situation where he would otherwise die" works well as a setup and payoff, but "put the pointy bit in the gut" isn't exactly the sort of thing you'd need lessons to figure out. I can actually see it happening too... Isildur's friend what's-his-name will get cornered by an orc and then stab him and then the shot will linger just a bit too long as if to say "see what we did there?"

[factotum]

They fought her four or five on one and she danced effortlessly around them. That doesn't show them as being good, that shows them all as being utterly green.

Does it? Or are they at least competent and Galadriel is just *that good*?

[Divayth Fyr]

Does it? Or are they at least competent and Galadriel is just *that good*?

It may have been the intention, but it doesn't really feel like it. Beyond the usual "clearly striking at the air and not the opponents" (glaringly obvious in many places) we have the moment where Galadriel is occupied with two opponent and a third, right behind her back, does nothing, even though they're ready to strike.

[Vinyadan]

It may have been the intention, but it doesn't really feel like it. Beyond the usual "clearly striking at the air and not the opponents" (glaringly obvious in many places) we have the moment where Galadriel is occupied with two opponent and a third, right behind her back, does nothing, even though they're ready to strike.

That's the eternal Hollywood problem, isn't it? Star Wars in particular suffers from it, since it started using lightsabers outside one-on-one fights.

Musashi IIRC was very clear on this, if you were one against many, you were supposed to use your two swords to stop your enemies from fanning out and surrounding you. The skill is in preventing a situation where your enemies are behind you. I think it can be a pretty good way to show skill, especially if someone comments on it:

"Why don't they surround her?"
"She won't let them." (show Galadriel hitting with a stick in the face the man who was trying to fan out)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by factotum
Or are they at least competent….

Seems pretty clear there’s zero competence on display. They’re stumbling novices, and she smirks a lot.

Golly, that makes me just adore her.

Originally Posted by TheSummoner
…the Numenorean prison guards who shuffle into a prison cell single file if you lightly shove one of them….

I’m glad someone else noticed this. Tap one and they all just fall into line, literally.

(And they don’t even try to push the cell door open.)

Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr
…we have the moment where Galadriel is occupied with two opponent and a third, right behind her back, does nothing, even though they're ready to strike.

It’s as if the person playing Galadriel was a stand-in who ended up being filmed while the real actor was stuck in traffic.

A really good actor with really good choreography could sell this scene, but I’m not seeing either here.

[TheSummoner]

Does it? Or are they at least competent and Galadriel is just *that good*?

Competent wouldn't just let her reach forward and grab the sword out of his hand. Try that with a friend or family member using a dowel rod or a broomstick or something similar and see how easy that is. She doesn't use any sort of leverage or manipulate his hand to a position where his grip would be weaker, he's just not gripping it very tightly in the first place.

It may have been the intention, but it doesn't really feel like it. Beyond the usual "clearly striking at the air and not the opponents" (glaringly obvious in many places) we have the moment where Galadriel is occupied with two opponent and a third, right behind her back, does nothing, even though they're ready to strike.

I read the intention as being a bit of both, but what the scene shows has more weight than what the characters say and both of those have more weight than my or anyone else's guess as to what was intended.

That's the eternal Hollywood problem, isn't it? Star Wars in particular suffers from it, since it started using lightsabers outside one-on-one fights.

Musashi IIRC was very clear on this, if you were one against many, you were supposed to use your two swords to stop your enemies from fanning out and surrounding you. The skill is in preventing a situation where your enemies are behind you. I think it can be a pretty good way to show skill, especially if someone comments on it:

"Why don't they surround her?"
"She won't let them." (show Galadriel hitting with a stick in the face the man who was trying to fan out)

They did have her surrounded at one point, though. It's just the ones behind her just stood there doing nothing. It doesn't matter how good she is, she's one person. Against that many attackers, it is not possible for her to block or avoid all of them if they strike at the same time. They never did. You can call that a choreography issue if you want, but it doesn't speak to them being experienced, trained, or competent.

To have her fight so many and have it reflect more on her skill than their lack, the scene probably would've needed to show her denying their numerical advantage and quickly taking them out one at a time... But that wasn't an option because they were using real weapons and she didn't want to actually kill them (don't argue they were blunted, one of them cut her sleeve). That's also dumb, but that's a Hollywood dumb thing and not a RoP dumb thing. Still, the choice to not have them use training weapons does limit the options for what Galadriel could do to defeat them.

[ecarden]

I'm going to step away from this thread. It seems like a pretty endless stream of negativity, much of which doesn't line up with the show as I'm watching it, or which amount to general complaints about standard Hollywood tropes and film techniques.

I will say, as a final comment that I think there is a lot to complain about in fight choreography. I think it tends to radically undercut the narrative threat and value of numbers, it tends to be wildly inconsistent on who and what are actual threats to the protagonists and it produces an odd video gamification (or even D&Dification) of narratives, where there are implicit character 'levels' which minimize or remove risk of attack by 'lower level' characters. But that is absolutely dead standard in film and TV, between mook chivalry and the uselessness of armor. It may also be unavoidable.

I think I'd enjoy 'fairer' more even fights, but a lot of what makes such fights interesting in books (the ability to be inside the characters heads, or to have the fight narrated to you and the cleverness explained) is somewhere between impossible and very difficult in a visual medium. I think you'd most likely end up with a fantasy world where, much like the real world, you usually don't want to fight and where things just aren't...cinematic?

I'm honestly reminded of the Real Life Fighting is Awkward song/music video from Crazy-Ex-Girlfriend. That's fun to watch in a dramedy, but it's not what I'm looking for in fantasy films.

[pendell]

For that to be the case, they'd have to have already undergone training prior to this, which still isn't supported by the show.

We're told they're people selected for experience with the Sea Guard and other formations, which implies at some point they learned which end of a sword the pointy end is. If they're going over these basics again, it must be refresher training.

Ok, let's have a look.

Red - The instant kill - the heart and the neck
Blue - The cripple - The limbs
Yellow - The slow kill - The side and the stomach

"The slow kill may have enough left in him to kill you before he dies"

Set aside for a moment that we're addressing criticism of Hollywood sword training with more Hollywood sword training, if this was supposed disprove my point about stomach wounds, it's done quite the opposite. The trainer makes exactly the point I made - that stomach wounds are not an instant kill and the opponent can still potentially keep swinging and take the attacker with him.

Just for fun, let's apply the lesson from your clip to Fellowship of the Ring. Lurtz is definitely far tougher than the average orc, but the cripple didn't stop him and neither did the slow kill. Aragorn followed through before Lurtz could do the take him down before he dies part, but it was the instant kill that finished the fight.

Now, I think the Spartacus lesson is a bit overly simple, but it definitely is far better advice than "stab, twist, gut".

*Nod* I wasn't trying to disprove your point; I'm trying to say this is how that sort of scene is done well, and it was done well in the 60s. In the US at that time, pretty much every male in the audience would have done time as a conscript so they'd be more apt to notice silliness, perhaps.

But then ... does this show have a "military advisor" credit? If so, at least some of the compensation should be in alcohol .

Although my issue with the Spartacus scene, again, is that while it's better to aim for the red zones, these are professional gladiators fighting unarmored opponents. When wearing armour, it looks different; the neck isn't an easy point to aim for at the best of times, and the heart is going to be behind mail and breastplate. That leaves you with the legs, the arms, and the stomach. These are the marks legionaries, who were trained differently from gladiators, aimed for.


As far as other points people have brought up, orcs, humans, and elves are all the same species biologically, so the vital points and nervous system would be the same. Also, I remember in the books after Boromir's fight Aragorn noticed that some orc-soldiers were different because they were "almost man-high, and used straight swords". This implies your typical orc is shorter than a typical human. And a Dunedain is taller and more muscular than a typical human, so I should think , at least in size, the human soldiers would have an advantage.

I would hazard that the orc's advantage comes from the fact they fight more savagely than humans; I read a book once about chimpanzees sick with ebola ; the author noted that this was dangerous for the doctors because a 10 pound chimpanzee is more than a match for a hundred-pound-plus grown man, because a chimpanzee is ten pounds of utter berserk fury. It'll bite off fingers, bite out throat, claw eyes, you name it. It's all the worse when it's down with a deadly disease which means the slightest exposure to its body fluids will rip open your MOPP-4 gear which is supposed to protect from something like Marburg or Ebola.

Now, take that chimpanzee's utter viciousness, scale it up to about 4'6'' inches in height and about a hundred pounds in weight, then give it a scimitar , a shield, and mail. There's your orc.

Written this way, it implies that a gut-stab is actually a bad idea because something this crazy-vicious isn't going to stop just because it's hurt; it's going to keep coming with teeth and fists until it's physically unable to do so any more. This implies that you're going to need to cripple and then follow up with an instant kill, if you can.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Vinyadan]

There's a detailed description of Orcs fighting Numenoreans in the UT's recount of the Battle of the Gladden Fields, where Isildur's men were slaughtered by Orcs. It was an unusual fight, because the Orcs were being unusually relentless due to the presence of the Ring (also, these were Mountain Orcs, but their commanders were from Mordor).

It's clear in it that, in the same numbers, the Numenoreans would have won. When ambushed, the Numenoreans fought in formation, creating a shield wall, and were well equipped and armoured and helped by archers. The Orcs however had a numerical advantage of ten to one. First the Orcs shot their arrows, that didn't work against the armoured Men, then they tried a concentrated assault with their best, strongest Orcs against the shield wall, but they failed because the Men were all taller and had longer limbs and weapons. So they ceased the attack and followed the marching Men until night, at which point they renewed the attack, completely surrounding them. Finally they started to work in small groups, jumping on single Men, pushing them to the ground, and dragging them away to kill them far from the help of other Men. It's a crazy tactic, that requires numerical superiority and a ferocity that forgets personal danger, because certainly many Orcs were killed by the Men while they were dragging away their prey and could not defend themselves (for each Man, five Orcs died). The Numenorean detachment is then completely destroyed, except for 3 Men who leave the fight and one survivor among the dead.

Interestingly, the Orcs further away that unexpectedly see Isildur emerging from the river with the shining diadem on his brow as he tries to escape the fight are about as scared as the one who run away seeing Sam's shadow: they shoot their arrows and run away without checking what it was.

[Aedilred]

I'm going to step away from this thread. It seems like a pretty endless stream of negativity, much of which doesn't line up with the show as I'm watching it, or which amount to general complaints about standard Hollywood tropes and film techniques.

I've been wondering the same thing. Maybe we need two threads, one for people who are watching the show and mostly enjoying it, and one for those who just want to pull it to pieces.

It's not even like the show is flawless and all the criticisms are in bad faith or illegitimate. It's just that the level of negativity from some quarters is so high that the signal:noise ratio makes productive discussion about the show's genuine issues - let alone anything that's, heavens to murgatroyd, actually good, all but impossible.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by pendell
…a 10 pound chimpanzee is more than a match for a hundred-pound-plus grown man, because a chimpanzee is ten pounds of utter berserk fury.

Adult chimpanzees do not weigh ten pounds. Adult chimpanzees can weigh 120 pounds or more.

For comparison, male howler monkeys can reach 30 pounds easily, baboons can range from 30 to 80 pounds, and female macaques are in the ten-pound range.

Originally Posted by pendell
It'll bite off fingers, bite out throat, claw eyes, you name it.

And this is a sick chimpanzee. A healthy chimpanzee can and will pull you apart joint by joint. They’re capable brachiators with the upper-body strength to do this easily. Captive spider monkeys can be nearly as dangerous for the same reason.

Are we ever told or shown that orcs are brachiators? I don’t recall offhand, but I wouldn’t expect they’d have the same upper-body strength as a chimp.

[diplomancer]

Adult chimpanzees do not weigh ten pounds. Adult chimpanzees can weigh 120 pounds or more.

For comparison, male howler monkeys can reach 30 pounds easily, baboons can range from 30 to 80 pounds, and female macaques are in the ten-pound range.



And this is a sick chimpanzee. A healthy chimpanzee can and will pull you apart joint by joint. They’re capable brachiators with the upper-body strength to do this easily. Captive spider monkeys can be nearly as dangerous for the same reason.

Are we ever told or shown that orcs are brachiators? I don’t recall offhand, but I wouldn’t expect they’d have the same upper-body strength as a chimp.

Grishnakh's description seems particularly apish to me. But Tolkien orcs really vary tremendously in body types... it feels like the bad guys do to orcs what we humans did to dogs regarding breeding for specific traits. The one thing they have in common is their charming personality.It's why you have orcs which are "man-high" while simultaneously Frodo and Sam can be mistaken for Orcs in Mordor.

[KorvinStarmast]

It’s as if the person playing Galadriel was a stand-in who ended up being filmed while the real actor was stuck in traffic. A really good actor with really good choreography could sell this scene, but I’m not seeing either here.

I agree. The point that they are making, an elf warrior with centuries of experience is an amazing fighter, was made - but it could have been made better. And that is a slam on the director and the choreographer. The actors did what they could, as I see it. With more effort put into the scene from the scene crafters I suspect it would have been more satisfying.
One thing that I liked about that scene was Elindil: 'if you can draw blood you are promoted to leftenant' ... because he knows how good she is! And she acknowledges that at the end, noting the nick on her arm. Nice touch.

I've been wondering the same thing. Maybe we need two threads, one for people who a re watching the show and mostly enjoying it, and one for those who just want to pull it to pieces.

I started the thread, and I expected to see both positive and negative reactions. I think we can all deal with that.

[TheSummoner]

We're told they're people selected for experience with the Sea Guard and other formations, which implies at some point they learned which end of a sword the pointy end is. If they're going over these basics again, it must be refresher training.

The question is whether some of them have been selected or all of them. From how they're shown to handle themselves, I find the former far more plausible. Or maybe the standards are just that low. The prison scene does support that interpretation.

*Nod* I wasn't trying to disprove your point; I'm trying to say this is how that sort of scene is done well, and it was done well in the 60s. In the US at that time, pretty much every male in the audience would have done time as a conscript so they'd be more apt to notice silliness, perhaps.

[...]

Although my issue with the Spartacus scene, again, is that while it's better to aim for the red zones, these are professional gladiators fighting unarmored opponents. When wearing armour, it looks different; the neck isn't an easy point to aim for at the best of times, and the heart is going to be behind mail and breastplate. That leaves you with the legs, the arms, and the stomach. These are the marks legionaries, who were trained differently from gladiators, aimed for.

My mistake then. While I do think the Spartacus scene could've gone into more detail, I couldn't find anything about that lesson that struck me as being wrong or objectionable (only the part of the training where they were basically playing jump rope with spinning swords, but even that you could make the argument is more about building stamina and keeping moving than teaching to dodge a realistic swing).

The best place to strike is at whatever place happens to be exposed and vulnerable at the time. A good hit to the opponent's little finger is better than a glancing blow that harmlessly bounces off armor right at his heart. I can see how that'd be hard to work into a short dialogue though. Legs tend to be harder to hit than anything higher up. Good armor will stop most attacks aimed at whatever it's covering. The head remains vulnerable even in heavy armor since enough concussive force will still mess someone up. All that said, we are talking about orcs. Generally, they wouldn't have the best equipment.

But then ... does this show have a "military advisor" credit? If so, at least some of the compensation should be in alcohol .

I don't see one listed in the full cast and crew credits on the IMDB page. It could be missing in theory, but the page lists the travel & accommodation coordinator and the cast driver, so it seems fairly thorough.

There's a detailed description of Orcs fighting Numenoreans in the UT's recount of the Battle of the Gladden Fields, where Isildur's men were slaughtered by Orcs. It was an unusual fight, because the Orcs were being unusually relentless due to the presence of the Ring (also, these were Mountain Orcs, but their commanders were from Mordor).

It's clear in it that, in the same numbers, the Numenoreans would have won. When ambushed, the Numenoreans fought in formation, creating a shield wall, and were well equipped and armoured and helped by archers. The Orcs however had a numerical advantage of ten to one. First the Orcs shot their arrows, that didn't work against the armoured Men, then they tried a concentrated assault with their best, strongest Orcs against the shield wall, but they failed because the Men were all taller and had longer limbs and weapons.

Worth keeping in mind with this that Numenoreans are not normal men. Their average height is about 7 feet tall and Elendil is supposed to be just shy of 8 feet.

Grishnakh's description seems particularly apish to me. But Tolkien orcs really vary tremendously in body types... it feels like the bad guys do to orcs what we humans did to dogs regarding breeding for specific traits. The one thing they have in common is their charming personality.It's why you have orcs which are "man-high" while simultaneously Frodo and Sam can be mistaken for Orcs in Mordor.

Nonsense. Everyone knows that orcs are short, bulldog-looking fellows with surprisingly good singing voices.

[Thrudd]

Nonsense. Everyone knows that orcs are short, bulldog-looking fellows with surprisingly good singing voices.

"Where there's a whip, there's a way!"

[Aedilred]

Seems pretty clear there’s zero competence on display. They’re stumbling novices, and she smirks a lot.

We know the two who she initially fights (Isildur's friends) are Sea Guard cadets, who we are expected to infer from earlier scenes were all-but qualified had Isildur not got them kicked out. To a sober eye, they do not exhibit a great deal of competence in fighting Galadriel, but I think that's on the choreographer: they are not supposed to be novices based on what we've seen.

I started the thread, and I expected to see both positive and negative reactions. I think we can all deal with that.

I can deal with negative reactions, but the negative voices in the thread seem at times to be both louder and more persistent, meaning that the whole thing becomes an exercise in firefighting criticism rather than actually discussing the show in an enjoyable way.


Changing the subject slightly...
I've seen some criticism of the portrayal of Isildur, although apparently not in this thread - at least recently. Word in some quarters is that he's coming across as a spoiled princeling... but while I can see how you might get that from him on a superficial level, it's not the read I'm getting. He seems to be a young man who is on the one hand mindful of the expectations placed on him by his society (and father) and wanting to do his duty etc. within the context of that, and on the other hand a visionary who has ambitions and aspirations outside the confines of what that system allows. What isn't entirely clear is what he actually does want to do: there's been mention of "the west" - does he want to sail to Valinor? - but that whole side of things has been by allusion only, so his motivations are left hanging.

Similarly, there must be a reason why he didn't report Kemen's sabotage, but we're left guessing at exactly what that is. It's not hard to assume that on some level it's because he thinks Kemen is too powerful to dispose of by mere accusation and is therefore more useful to him unsuspected and grateful - but without a real look at his underlying motivations, what are the favours he's planning to call in? I think that is one of the main reasons his characterisation (as I see it) so far hasn't been entirely effective. I'm hoping this gets developed a bit more, perhaps when we finally meet - or find out what happened to - Anarion?

[Sapphire Guard]

Yeah, there's a lot of bad takes both good and bad on this show, hard to find trustworthy reviews.

Orcs vary even in LOTR. The Misty mountains ones see well in the dark, but aren't much for standup fights and don't like the sun. Saruman's are tough and resistant to the sun, Mordor orcs aren't as good, but are crafty.

The Second Age orcs are different again, they seem more vulnerable to the sun but strong and tough, don't have the numbers of later or earlier times, which makes sense, they've been hiding underground for centuries.

I'll give them the choreography, there's no easy way to do 5 on 1. If you're in that situation, the only thing to do is run. Galadriel isn't really fighting like an orc, but it's hard for her to, she's tiny and elegant, if she tried to roar and charge like an orc it just wouldn't work, it'd make a dramatic scene look silly.

Spoiler: mithril

Show

Not a fan of the new origin of mithril. It kinda makes sense if we assume Gil Galad wants mithril in order to have Celebrimbor make the rings. Still don't like it.

Spoiler: fake apologies?

Show

Isildur, Galadriel and Elrond all give fake apologies in order to manipulate people. That's weird. If you apologise because you want something from the person you're apologising to, it's not a real apology, but only Isildur gets called on it. Do like that Elendil has no time for nepotism.

Isildur seems to literally hear voices calling him, without knowing what's up with that it's hard to judge his motivations. Re the lie, I think he doesn't want to be on the hook for burning down the boat.

[TheSummoner]

Changing the subject slightly...
I've seen some criticism of the portrayal of Isildur, although apparently not in this thread - at least recently. Word in some quarters is that he's coming across as a spoiled princeling... but while I can see how you might get that from him on a superficial level, it's not the read I'm getting. He seems to be a young man who is on the one hand mindful of the expectations placed on him by his society (and father) and wanting to do his duty etc. within the context of that, and on the other hand a visionary who has ambitions and aspirations outside the confines of what that system allows. What isn't entirely clear is what he actually does want to do: there's been mention of "the west" - does he want to sail to Valinor? - but that whole side of things has been by allusion only, so his motivations are left hanging.

I never got that impression. He seems more aimless and maybe a bit on the dumb side. Which is a shame because by all rights, he should be the main character when you're telling the story of the fall of Numenor. Or alternatively Elendil should be the main character early on and Isildur becomes the main character as the story progresses.

Yeah, there's a lot of bad takes both good and bad on this show, hard to find trustworthy reviews.

Orcs vary even in LOTR. The Misty mountains ones see well in the dark, but aren't much for standup fights and don't like the sun. Saruman's are tough and resistant to the sun, Mordor orcs aren't as good, but are crafty.

The Second Age orcs are different again, they seem more vulnerable to the sun but strong and tough, don't have the numbers of later or earlier times, which makes sense, they've been hiding underground for centuries.

RoP orcs are practically vampires with how bad the sun burns them. It was always something that was unpleasant, but it was something that could be endured if they had to. I've got no clue how these orcs are supposed to manage if they have to do something like lay siege to a city or march over any great distance when they don't have the time to dig a miles long trench.

I'll give them the choreography, there's no easy way to do 5 on 1. If you're in that situation, the only thing to do is run. Galadriel isn't really fighting like an orc, but it's hard for her to, she's tiny and elegant, if she tried to roar and charge like an orc it just wouldn't work, it'd make a dramatic scene look silly.

Hard maybe, but doable. The biggest obstacle is the live steel they insisted on using. Imagine instead that they were using wooden training swords. Have all 5 rush her at once and then have her dart around to the side so so they're in eachother's way, then she jabs the closest in the stomach. Hard enough to double him over, but not in a way that'll cause any real injury. The next swings and she sidesteps and falls back again, hitting his arm as she does and making him drop his sword. The other three are still after her and have regained enough of their coordination that she can't focus on just one so she goes into a full retreat. Maybe one of the recruits taunts her as they give chase. He'd be the next one she hits once she finds a good choke point, let's say with a hit to the side of the head. She's not running out of cowardice, but rather because it's tactically the smartest thing to do. Now it's just two on one. Still an advantage, but one where she can finish the fight without it looking completely ridiculous. They could also establish before the fight that if you get hit, you're "dead" and don't get to keep trying after that. And also make it so this isn't meant as a "how to fight orcs" lesson, but just some intense sparring.

Also, canonically, she's 6'4". Elegant, definitely, but not tiny.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by TheSummoner
Also, canonically, she's 6'4". Elegant, definitely, but not tiny.

Indeed:

“On two chairs beneath the bole of the tree and canopied by a living bough there sat, side by side, Celeborn and Galadriel. They stood up to greet their guests, after the manner of Elves, even those who were accounted mighty kings. Very tall they were, and the Lady no less tall than the Lord; and they were grave and beautiful.”