The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[GreenDragonPage]

I low key want a show that centers on Durin and Elrond going around having adventures and being best friends.

[Sapphire Guard]

Also, canonically, she's 6'4". Elegant, definitely, but not tiny.

I know that, but Morfydd Clark is not. If we're going by canonical heights, most of the Numenorians are over 6. foot and Elendil 'the Tall' is at least 7'. The casting director has more important things to worry about.

Also, re sparring, 'if we completely change everything about the scene it might be doable' doesn't really help.

[Vinyadan]

Off the top of my head, Sigurney Weaver got a role (I can't recall which one) because she was tall and she is around 180 cm, Galadriel was 196 IIRC. Nicole Kidman, Tilda Swinton, Uma Thurman and Brooke Shields are in the same ballpark as Sigurney Weaver.

Kate Blanchet is 173 cm. Morfydd Clark is 162 cm. She strikes me as a fairly different body type from the one vaguely described in the books. But the real problem is that going for an action movie forces you into full-body shots, creating a problem that I didn't see with Kate Blanchet, who floated around in a long dress.

Elizabeth Debicki, the wife of Sator in Tenet, is 187 cm (which explains why Sator looked so short, I guess). Gwendoline Christie, aka Brienne, is 190 cm, but having already played a similar role, it would have been a big déjà vu.

The problem with a 1:1 Galadriel however is that it would imply 1:1-sized people around her. Massive Numenoreans, for example, and an incredibly tall Elendil (241 cm; to make a comparison, Badejo, the Yoruba actor that played the Alien in Alien, was 208 cm, and Kevin Peter Hall, who played the Predator in Predator, was 220 cm).

[diplomancer]

Off the top of my head, Sigurney Weaver got a role (I can't recall which one) because she was tall and she is around 180 cm, Galadriel was 196 IIRC. Nicole Kidman, Tilda Swinton, Uma Thurman and Brooke Shields are in the same ballpark as Sigurney Weaver.

Kate Blanchet is 173 cm. Morfydd Clark is 162 cm. She strikes me as a fairly different body type from the one vaguely described in the books. But the real problem is that going for an action movie forces you into full-body shots, creating a problem that I didn't see with Kate Blanchet, who floated around in a long dress.

Elizabeth Debicki, the wife of Sator in Tenet, is 187 cm (which explains why Sator looked so short, I guess). Gwendoline Christie, aka Brienne, is 190 cm, but having already played a similar role, it would have been a big déjà vu.

The problem with a 1:1 Galadriel however is that it would imply 1:1-sized people around her. Massive Numenoreans, for example, and an incredibly tall Elendil (241 cm; to make a comparison, Badejo, the Yoruba actor that played the Alien in Alien, was 208 cm, and Kevin Peter Hall, who played the Predator in Predator, was 220 cm).

Elizabeth Debicki would make a good Galadriel (and I think she's 191, not 187), but I can see how that would require a really tall actor for Elendil.

[Divayth Fyr]

Elizabeth Debicki would make a good Galadriel (and I think she's 191, not 187), but I can see how that would require a really tall actor for Elendil.

I mean, would it be worse than Galadriel being shorter than most of the people around her all the time?

[diplomancer]

I mean, would it be worse than Galadriel being shorter than most of the people around her all the time?

My headcanon is that character is not Galadriel; though, in the series, that's distinctly headcanon, it has the advantage of being congruent with Tolkien canon

[Divayth Fyr]

My headcanon is that character is not Galadriel; though, in the series, that's distinctly headcanon, it has the advantage of being congruent with Tolkien canon

Reminds me of the old post on Elder Scrolls Online. Which - if you switched a few details - seems reasonably fitting here as well ;)

TES Online allows the player to live the events of The Alliance War saga, an ongoing series of historical fiction novels written in the Fourth Era and set in the Second Era of Tamriel. Though extremely popular among the commoners, scholars and priests across Tamriel have criticized it for its unbelievable characters, including an Altmer queen of only 28 years, and blatant historical and mythological inaccuracies. The Elder Council condemns its portrayal of the Imperial government as complicit in a Daedric invasion of Tamriel, and cults of Molag Bal in four provinces have released statements distancing themselves from the author, who goes simply by the name of "Loremaster Lawrence."

[KorvinStarmast]

Changing the subject slightly...
I've seen some criticism of the portrayal of Isildur, although apparently not in this thread - at least recently.

I am very critical of how they have presented Isildur, it's a big disappointment. I hold out hope that with him starting as a wayward princeling we get to see him grow up.
Also, Anarion is never seen, and his sister is seen but she is apparently more aligned with the Kings Men than the Faithful. But that may need some more time to develop.
As to Isildur, what isn't entirely clear is why he's such a slacker. Again, I hold out hope for character growth.

I'm hoping this gets developed a bit more, perhaps when we finally meet - or find out what happened to - Anarion?

Maybe in season 2?

Spoiler: mithril

Show

Not a fan of the new origin of mithril. It kinda makes sense if we assume Gil Galad wants mithril in order to have Celebrimbor make the rings. Still don't like it.

Yeah, it's kinda weird. (Bilbo gets a mail shirt made of the stuff that elves need in order to survive is kind of creepy, lore wise). But this does lay the groundwork for the Dwarven pursuit of that ore for later in the series and I suspect that it will be a part of the alloy, crafted by Celebrimbor and some Dwarves, that makes the three Elven Rings different.

Spoiler: fake apologies?

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Isildur, Galadriel and Elrond all give fake apologies in order to manipulate people.

Yeah, that's off putting.

Do like that Elendil has no time for nepotism.

Yes.

Which is a shame because by all rights, he should be the main character when you're telling the story of the fall of Numenor. Or alternatively Elendil should be the main character early on and Isildur becomes the main character as the story progresses.

Aye, but I suspect a cynical play by the producers to appeal to a part of their audience.

As to Galadriel's height: Gabrielle Reese is who I have in mind, she's an athlete, but I just looked up and realized that she's 52, and maybe not up for the acting slog. (Her screen credits hardly give confidence for casting her as a leading lady).

[TheSummoner]

Also, re sparring, 'if we completely change everything about the scene it might be doable' doesn't really help.

It's pretty much necessary if you wanted to do that sort of scene and have it not be ridiculous. Fighting against so many attackers, the only way she'd have a chance is to do what she could to stop them from being able to come at her at the same time and essentially turn it into a series of 1 on 1 fights in quick succession. And because they'd be doing their best to not let her do that, she has to end each of those 1 on 1 fights as quickly as possible. Even though she doesn't want to kill them in this situation, she still needs to be able to actually hit them to do that.

Re: Actor/Character heights. I don't know much about the specifics, but there are tricks Hollywood can and does use to get around this. John Rhys-Davies (Gimli) is 6'1" while Viggo Mortensen (Aragorn) and Orlando Bloom (Legolas) are 5'11" and yet he spends most of the trilogy with them and it's never an issue.

[Vinyadan]

Elizabeth Debicki would make a good Galadriel (and I think she's 191, not 187), but I can see how that would require a really tall actor for Elendil.

She's going to do Lady Diana, in a way it's a similar character.

[Keltest]

It's pretty much necessary if you wanted to do that sort of scene and have it not be ridiculous. Fighting against so many attackers, the only way she'd have a chance is to do what she could to stop them from being able to come at her at the same time and essentially turn it into a series of 1 on 1 fights in quick succession. And because they'd be doing their best to not let her do that, she has to end each of those 1 on 1 fights as quickly as possible. Even though she doesn't want to kill them in this situation, she still needs to be able to actually hit them to do that.

Re: Actor/Character heights. I don't know much about the specifics, but there are tricks Hollywood can and does use to get around this. John Rhys-Davies (Gimli) is 6'1" while Viggo Mortensen (Aragorn) and Orlando Bloom (Legolas) are 5'11" and yet he spends most of the trilogy with them and it's never an issue.

Actually, JRD being 6'1 was a boon, because it meant he was taller than the hobbit actors by about the right amount already, so they only needed to have two sets of perspectives instead of 3 to get the height proportions right.

[Palanan]

Stepping back to consider Galadriel as a character, it’s worth looking at a key scene in Andor for comparison.

Spoiler: Andor & Galadriel

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In Rings of Power, the assumption seems to be that we’re meant to like Galadriel, or at least to be on her side. But from what I can tell, her entire characterization is that she’s prickly, stubborn and so very superior. As a few have pointed out, this doesn’t give the audience much of a reason to like her.

In Andor, by contrast, we have a junior officer whom we’re already inclined to hate. He’s a career-obsessed zealot, a two-bit flunky who’s drunk a barrel of Imperial Kool-Aid, and he’s relentlessly pursuing our hero while stepping on everyone in his way. Boo, hiss!

—And yet, in one superbly done scene we’re given a completely different perspective on him, when he tries to address a small squad of hardened troops and realizes just how feeble and inexperienced he sounds. Suddenly we’re right there with him, feeling each painfully awkward second and suffering through it with him.

In that one scene, we’re brought into a deeply human empathy with someone whom we’ve been expecting to be a straight-up cardboard villain. The scene shows us that he’s not what we’re expecting—that we share an essential humanity with him; and suddenly we’re caught up in his perspective and almost rooting for him.

That is how you humanize an unlikable character. The audience still may not fully approve of him, and yet somehow we’re onboard with his emotional trajectory.

Apply that approach to Galadriel. Give us someone obsessed with pursuing an enemy, who doggedly continues the pursuit when no one else sees the point—and then show us a moment when she fails, and make that such a powerful human moment that we empathize with her despite our differences.

You don’t make a character deeply compelling because she wins at everything. You make her compelling by showing us how this competent, driven individual can fail completely—and then we’re right there beside her, wanting her to get up and keep going.

Has there been a scene like that? It would make all the difference with this portrayal of Galadriel, yet it seems the show isn’t willing to make that leap.

[Sapphire Guard]

I think it's very likely there's a scene like that coming. Probably at the end of season 1.

[Advent]

I heard a lot of bad things, but some good things too. I'm torn if I'll watch it. Perhaps when it's finally over and I can binge it if the whole series is well reviewed

[pendell]

I think it's very likely there's a scene like that coming. Probably at the end of season 1.

Here's hoping it all comes together and ends well!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[TheSummoner]

I think it's very likely there's a scene like that coming. Probably at the end of season 1.

Feels like it would be too little too late at this point. We're already 5 episodes in and people have solidly formed their first impressions. Anyone new coming in would have to sit through at least 5 hours of show before seeing the main character get "humanized." That's asking for a lot of investment for something that's generally the default state of your main character.

Stepping back to consider Galadriel as a character, it’s worth looking at a key scene in Andor for comparison.

Spoiler: Andor & Galadriel

Show

In Rings of Power, the assumption seems to be that we’re meant to like Galadriel, or at least to be on her side. But from what I can tell, her entire characterization is that she’s prickly, stubborn and so very superior. As a few have pointed out, this doesn’t give the audience much of a reason to like her.

In Andor, by contrast, we have a junior officer whom we’re already inclined to hate. He’s a career-obsessed zealot, a two-bit flunky who’s drunk a barrel of Imperial Kool-Aid, and he’s relentlessly pursuing our hero while stepping on everyone in his way. Boo, hiss!

—And yet, in one superbly done scene we’re given a completely different perspective on him, when he tries to address a small squad of hardened troops and realizes just how feeble and inexperienced he sounds. Suddenly we’re right there with him, feeling each painfully awkward second and suffering through it with him.

In that one scene, we’re brought into a deeply human empathy with someone whom we’ve been expecting to be a straight-up cardboard villain. The scene shows us that he’s not what we’re expecting—that we share an essential humanity with him; and suddenly we’re caught up in his perspective and almost rooting for him.

That is how you humanize an unlikable character. The audience still may not fully approve of him, and yet somehow we’re onboard with his emotional trajectory.

Apply that approach to Galadriel. Give us someone obsessed with pursuing an enemy, who doggedly continues the pursuit when no one else sees the point—and then show us a moment when she fails, and make that such a powerful human moment that we empathize with her despite our differences.

You don’t make a character deeply compelling because she wins at everything. You make her compelling by showing us how this competent, driven individual can fail completely—and then we’re right there beside her, wanting her to get up and keep going.

Has there been a scene like that? It would make all the difference with this portrayal of Galadriel, yet it seems the show isn’t willing to make that leap.

Spoiler

Show

Running with the idea that something like that could, or at least should come before the end of the season, let's look at how it might play out. We've got 3 episodes left. That's not enough time for any swerves, so anything that did happen would have to go along with the current trajectory of Galadriel's storyline. She's heading to the southlands, hunting Sauron. Arondir's storyline is taking place around there, so most likely their storeylines are going to merge, at least temporarily.

Now, from Arondir's storyline, we have no indication that Sauron is actually in the southlands. Adar is, ergo Galadriel will likely come into conflict with Adar. One theory I've seen people claim is that Adar is actually Galadriel's brother. While that sort of thing could create a humanizing moment, I doubt it's true and given the setup so far, really hope that it isn't true. While canonically, Galadriel has three brothers, the only one mentioned by the show is Finrod. We know he's dead and he looks nothing like Adar, so it still somehow being him or being an up until now unmentioned brother would feel like it came out of nowhere. With that out of the way, let's look at the "Galadriel fails" option. I see two ways that could play out. Adar escapes and Adar wins.

Adar escapes would mean that Galadriel wins the fight (or at the very least it's inconclusive) but she fails to catch Adar. I don't think this would work as a humanizing moment. There's no currently established connection between Galadriel and Adar. To her, he's just a villain to be defeated. Her failing to catch him wouldn't have much weight and would just make him an ongoing threat.

Adar wins is the more interesting scenario, but due to the implications, it's also the less likely. Adar had an ultimatum delivered: surrender or die. About half of the southlanders refused to surrender. The main characters may escape, but the civilians and Numenorean volunteers would be brutalized and slaughtered. Something like that could deliver a punch to the gut similar to Ned Stark losing his head in the first season of Game of Thrones, but I really doubt this is a direction Amazon is wanting to go. They seem to want to keep the show family friendly, and that sort of thing definitely wouldn't be.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: possibility

Show

Adar is defeated but wins? If the swordhilt makes mount doom erupt and block out the sun or something, then Adar could be killed but still win, in that the Southlands become uninhabitable for humanity and hospitable for orcs, laying the groundwork for future villains rather than a resounding victory, even if the immediate threat is resolved.

I don't think Galadriel needs to be humbled. They're going to try and do that, most likely, but it's not the right path. I don't need her to be likeable or relatable, but we need to understand why she is who she is, where does the brashness and inability to be polite come from?

[factotum]

Re: that Adar theory:

Spoiler

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We literally saw Galadriel's brother lying dead on a bier in the first episode, how can Adar be him? If they did do that then that really would be my sign to bail out, because Morgoth and Sauron explicitly cannot create life since they don't have access to the Flame Imperishable, which is why they have to corrupt existing living beings.

[TheSummoner]

Re: that Adar theory:

Spoiler

Show

We literally saw Galadriel's brother lying dead on a bier in the first episode, how can Adar be him? If they did do that then that really would be my sign to bail out, because Morgoth and Sauron explicitly cannot create life since they don't have access to the Flame Imperishable, which is why they have to corrupt existing living beings.

Spoiler

Show

That theory never specified Finrod and canonically, she had two other brothers. They might think he's one of the other two. But it would be just as much of an ass-pull since the show hasn't acknowledged them. Like I said, I think it's a dumb, unlikely theory.

[Divayth Fyr]

Re: that Adar theory:

Spoiler

Show

We literally saw Galadriel's brother lying dead on a bier in the first episode, how can Adar be him? If they did do that then that really would be my sign to bail out, because Morgoth and Sauron explicitly cannot create life since they don't have access to the Flame Imperishable, which is why they have to corrupt existing living beings.

Spoiler

Show

As a Tolkien elf, he could simply get another body and return from Valinor. But since it would muck up the timeline and be a huge disservice to his character, we can be sure the writers would never go that route

[Talakeal]

Short Galadriel, old Bilbo, and armless Smaug all bug me way more than they should.



On another note, did anyone notice that Elrond's argument about why Arwen should get on the boat in RoTK is basically the reverse of Galadriel's argument to him about why she shouldn't get on the boat in RoP? If intentional, that's a really good bit of commentary on Elrond's skill as a diplomat.

[KorvinStarmast]

Spoiler

Show

As a Tolkien elf, he could simply get another body and return from Valinor. But since it would muck up the timeline and be a huge disservice to his character, we can be sure the writers would never go that route

Spoiler: Well, if we are gonna go there ...

Show

Finrod's evil twin? Glorfindel's evil twin?

[pendell]

Spoiler: Well, if we are gonna go there ...

Show

Finrod's evil twin? Glorfindel's evil twin?

Spoiler

Show

Dornif?

Here's a thought: Is Adar an illusory disguise? Morgoth and company can't create new life or restore life, but they can definitely create disguises and they can create phantoms who have the image of someone once living; they snared one of Beren's companions using that ruse back in the Silmarillion.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by pendell

Spoiler

Show

Here's a thought: Is Adar an illusory disguise? Morgoth and company can't create new life or restore life, but they can definitely create disguises and they can create phantoms who have the image of someone once living; they snared one of Beren's companions using that ruse back in the Silmarillion.

Spoiler

Show

That would be extremely cool, and as you point out very true to the legendarium.

Color me skeptical that they'll go that route--but I will be impressed if they do.

[Tyndmyr]

I low key want a show that centers on Durin and Elrond going around having adventures and being best friends.

Yes, yes I want this. It's the best part of this show, and the two of them have a great time together. I'd love to see the two of them just embracing shenanigans. Forget all the grandiose stuff, and elf and a dwarf just being friends is amazing.

[warty goblin]

So this last episode was a weird one for me. It had some really excellent stuff and some really bad stuff all mixed together. And also some just fine stuff off doing its own thing.

The good
Elrond and Durin are fantastic. This is a really well drawn friendship between very different people who play off each other just marvelously. During in particular is a really top notch Dwarf, the writing and acting really sell that grouchy but soft hearted personality perfectly.

Numenor continues to be an exercise in being gorgeous as all getout. I really like the Gondor by way of Greco-Roman art style they've adopted. It works extremely well to sell Numenor as being absolutely on top (particularly compared to the mud farmers I soon to be Mordor) but, through the Roman similarities, also redolent of decline and self importance and decadence.

I liked most of the Arondir plotline. Not super exciting yet, but it moved forwards, stuff happened, and we're finally set for some full on war. I also enjoyed the only partial success of the stirring call to arms speech, that was a solid element in its own right and sets up some future conflicts.



The bad:
I dislike everything about the mithril revelations of this episode. This is bad on two distinct levels, as general fantasy and as something Tolkien adjacent.

As general fantasy it's not good because the whole elf and Balrog fighting bit feels like (and kinda looks like) the intro cutscene to mid budget MMO where everybody is fighting over the plot fuel and you have to farm Legendary Mithril Ore drops to upgrade your end game gear. It isn't terrible in this capacity, it's just cheesy in a self serious, unfun way.

As a piece of Tolkien worldbuilding I think it fails very hard. Adding +5 Balrog Essense does not improve anything, that's not how evil works in Arda. Evil twists, degrades and marrs things, except on the very bog picture sense where even Melkor's attempts to ruin the Song contribute to it, adding evil to something makes it worse.

And it makes no sense for the elves to need like mithril bath to avoid fading. That's always clearly been a very long term thing, which at least to me felt more like fading in importance as the world changed and the elves who remained clung to the past. Secondly, the story already has, and is putatively about, how the elves preserve the Elder Days. That's the whole reason for the Rings of Power. You don't need a dumb plot about mithril dietary supplements to motivate this; the elves want to preserve the Elder Days and the world, the Rings let them do that. This is just a bad change, it feels stuck in for the sake of episode filling drama.

The this also happened:

The whole burning ships plotlet in Numenor also feels like wheel-spinning drama. I don't hate it, but I 100% wouldn't miss it if it wasn't there. The Numenor politics stuff was decent this time, but only decent. The harfoots were fine, but the while burning sky dude plot needs to actually progress, which it hardly did this episode.

[KorvinStarmast]

Numenor continues to be an exercise in being gorgeous as all getout. I really like the Gondor by way of Greco-Roman art style they've adopted. It works extremely well to sell Numenor as being absolutely on top (particularly compared to the mud farmers I soon to be Mordor) but, through the Roman similarities, also redolent of decline and self importance and decadence.

Much agreement, that aspect of Numenor is so very well done.

And it makes no sense for the elves to need like mithril bath to avoid fading.

Mithril as the elven version of Oil of Olay. (And various anti aging creams sold in shops all over the world)

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: Mithril

Show

Given that this is Celebrimbor, I think it more likely means that he needs mithril to make the rings and so preserve the Elder Days than that the elves need to take baths in molten mithril to regenerate.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by warty goblin
Elrond and Durin are fantastic. This is a really well drawn friendship between very different people who play off each other just marvelously. During in particular is a really top notch Dwarf, the writing and acting really sell that grouchy but soft hearted personality perfectly.

Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
It's the best part of this show, and the two of them have a great time together. I'd love to see the two of them just embracing shenanigans. Forget all the grandiose stuff, and elf and a dwarf just being friends is amazing.

There seems to be a strong consensus everywhere I look that the Elrond/Durin relationship is the highlight of the show. And Durin as he’s presented here really is classic dwarf.

I’ve always had a very different mental image for Durin…but if the chemistry between them is working here, then roll with it. One of my few dissatisfactions with the Jackson LOTR trilogy was the lack of a deeper and earlier friendship between Gimli and Legolas; so if we’re able to see a dwarf/elf friendship here, then all the better.

Originally Posted by warty goblin
Numenor continues to be an exercise in being gorgeous as all getout.

Have you ever seen the Smithsonian’s Aerial America series? I would love to see all the majestic panoramas of Gondor, Eregion, Valinor, etc. strung together to Howard Shore’s music.

Originally Posted by warty goblin
And it makes no sense for the elves to need like mithril bath to avoid fading.

I can’t begin to imagine what they were thinking with this.

I’ve been going through The Nature of Middle-Earth, which I recommend to one and all, and the weird mithril thing just does not fit. Apart from what you’ve mentioned, it would drive elven culture and character in a completely different direction, and would likely give us creatures far different than what we see at the end of the Third Age.

[KorvinStarmast]

Spoiler: Mithril

Show

Given that this is Celebrimbor, I think it more likely means that he needs mithril to make the rings and so preserve the Elder Days than that the elves need to take baths in molten mithril to regenerate.

You are probably right about that, and in this past episode it is heavily implied that his advice is what was behind High King Gil Galad's mission orders to Elrond as regards the visit to Moria. Note that Celebrimbor chose NOT to enter Moria/Khazad-dûm/ Gwaith-i-Mírdain/Dark Chasm/Dwarrowdelf but left Elrond to do that solo, even though Celebrimbor is the one whose 'ambition' was being supported by the High King.

I’ve been going through The Nature of Middle-Earth, which I recommend to one and all, and the weird mithril thing just does not fit. Apart from what you’ve mentioned, it would drive elven culture and character in a completely different direction, and would likely give us creatures far different than what we see at the end of the Third Age.

The end of the Second Age will I suspect have as a part of its overly long ending montage a bit about "What have we learned, Dorothy Galadriel and Elrond?" and from that we'll get the reconnection with preserving all things elven that bridges into the Third Age.

That the power of the Rings is the Power To Preserve. (And no, this is not a cheap reference to Stephen R Donaldson's novels)