The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[warty goblin]

Spoiler: Mithril

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Given that this is Celebrimbor, I think it more likely means that he needs mithril to make the rings and so preserve the Elder Days than that the elves need to take baths in molten mithril to regenerate.

And if the show had been like "my secret project which is totally the Rings requires mithril" I would be 100 fine with that. Magic ore, magic rings, makes sense. Isn't Galadriel's Ring explicitly at least silver in appearance and description as the Ring of Adament?

But IIRC Gil-Galad says they need to expose the elves to vast amounts of mithril, which doesn't sound like forging Rings. It sounds like a bad wheelspinning plot because they need to establish that the elves are fading, and Elrond and Celebrimbor have to be doing something this season even though the Rings are definitely not getting forged.

My guess is that this plot fails and outside of setting up forging the Rings, is never mentioned again. It's just there to kill time, toss in some lore stuff to make a very casual movie fan happy, and sort of establish a problem.

[Divayth Fyr]

Isn't Galadriel's Ring explicitly at least silver in appearance and description as the Ring of Adament?

I believe it was explicitely stated to be of mithril, but can't really check right now.

But IIRC Gil-Galad says they need to expose the elves to vast amounts of mithril, which doesn't sound like forging Rings.

Basically they hold the light of the Silmaril, and they need a lot of that to save the elves... Guess the "forge" was actually planned to be a lighthouse?

My guess is that this plot fails and outside of setting up forging the Rings, is never mentioned again. It's just there to kill time, toss in some lore stuff to make a very casual movie fan happy, and sort of establish a problem.

I expect that either Durin Sr tells them to bugger off, and Junior manages to sneak some to Elrond, or something prevents them from getting much of the stuff, hence the Ring followup (as they wouldn't need much).

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by warty goblin
Isn't Galadriel's Ring explicitly at least silver in appearance and description as the Ring of Adamant?

“But Galadriel sat upon a white palfrey and was robed all in glimmering white, like clouds about the Moon; for she herself seemed to shine with a soft light. On her finger was Nenya, the ring wrought of mithril, that bore a single white stone flickering like a frosty star.”

[hamishspence]

Yup - "Adamant" is an old term for diamond - and the phrase "Ring of Adamant" refers to the gem in the ring rather than the whole thing.

[Sapphire Guard]

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I assumed he was just lying or speaking metaphorically or something. I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt on this, because the alternative is some sort of weird mithril lighthouse sunbed thing.

[Aedilred]

Celebrimbor's tower is clearly linked to the mithril plan, both because, well, duh, but also because he said it needed to be finished on a timescale consistent with Gil-galad's prophecy that they have a year. I wouldn't be surprised if the intention is to create a kind of artificial "Tree" using mithril as its power source.

My assumption would be that this fails for some reason and the Three Rings are forged instead, somehow fulfilling the same purpose as the original plan would. The reason for failure or abandonment might be as simple as "it's super inefficient compared to just forging three rings". But I would have thought we need Annatar before the Ring plan can come into play, otherwise you'd think Celebrimbor would have come up with it already.

What I did wonder when the problem was explained by Gil-galad was whether this only affects the Calaquendi or whether all elves in Middle-Earth are similarly endangered. There are after all a lot of elves - basically all the Sindar and Nandor, to start with - who never saw the light of the Trees and live nowhere near Eregion (and indeed owe no fealty to Gil-galad), so is the plan going to affect them, are they being written off as a total loss, do they not need the help?

[factotum]

There remains the possibility that Celebrimbor is simply lying to both Gil-galad and Elrond, of course...

[KorvinStarmast]

There remains the possibility that Celebrimbor is simply lying to both Gil-galad and Elrond, of course...

Yes, that is a possibility. I like the idea that the architectural plan and shape are significant.

[Psyren]

Though we haven't actually seen him, this gambit reeks of Sauron.

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Option #1: The elves get greedy, screw over their allies for Mithril, foster a whole lot of ill-will and ruin all their alliances while they're at a fraction of their previous stength. Sauron wins.

Option #2: The elves take the path of integrity and fear, leave Middle-Earth, and humans, dwarves and hobbits are left to fend for themselves. Sauron wins.

My question though is how he's able to corrupt the trees so thoroughly. Is he actually hiding out in Eregion?

[runeghost]

Though we haven't actually seen him, this gambit reeks of Sauron.

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Option #1: The elves get greedy, screw over their allies for Mithril, foster a whole lot of ill-will and ruin all their alliances while they're at a fraction of their previous stength. Sauron wins.

Option #2: The elves take the path of integrity and fear, leave Middle-Earth, and humans, dwarves and hobbits are left to fend for themselves. Sauron wins.

My question though is how he's able to corrupt the trees so thoroughly. Is he actually hiding out in Eregion?

You know, a season-end (or even next-season) reveal that none of the "Chekov's Saurons" are actually him, and the real Annatar has been chilling with Celbrimbor as his chief designer/muse the whole time would be something.

[TheSummoner]

My guess is that this plot fails and outside of setting up forging the Rings, is never mentioned again. It's just there to kill time, toss in some lore stuff to make a very casual movie fan happy, and sort of establish a problem.

The repercussions of playing up mithril as being that important and then just abandoning it would be... Jarring to say the least.

I expect that either Durin Sr tells them to bugger off, and Junior manages to sneak some to Elrond, or something prevents them from getting much of the stuff, hence the Ring followup (as they wouldn't need much).

Ok, but there are just three elven rings. Hardly enough to... I'm going to go with irradiate... the entire elven race with the mithril.

What I did wonder when the problem was explained by Gil-galad was whether this only affects the Calaquendi or whether all elves in Middle-Earth are similarly endangered. There are after all a lot of elves - basically all the Sindar and Nandor, to start with - who never saw the light of the Trees and live nowhere near Eregion (and indeed owe no fealty to Gil-galad), so is the plan going to affect them, are they being written off as a total loss, do they not need the help?

Have they even elaborated on the different kinds of elves? It's likely the show is just ignoring that such a distinction even exists.

Though we haven't actually seen him, this gambit reeks of Sauron.

Spoiler

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Option #1: The elves get greedy, screw over their allies for Mithril, foster a whole lot of ill-will and ruin all their alliances while they're at a fraction of their previous stength. Sauron wins.

Option #2: The elves take the path of integrity and fear, leave Middle-Earth, and humans, dwarves and hobbits are left to fend for themselves. Sauron wins.

My question though is how he's able to corrupt the trees so thoroughly. Is he actually hiding out in Eregion?

No, he's

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Halbrand. His first line was about looks being deceiving. He alluded to the horrible things he's had to do in the past to survive (while avoiding specifics). He's CONSTANTLY being shown having an interest in forging things. I'm still waiting for him to go jewelry shopping, but they've been very heavy handed about this.

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For my own thoughts, I'll echo the comments about wheels-spinning and things happening just to kill time. It doesn't feel like much really progressed between the end of 4 and the end of 5. Galadriel was getting ready to set on a ship and then she set off. The hobbits were migrating and they continue to migrate. Arondir was waiting for Adar to attack and he's still waiting. Durin got a new table. A few musings on specific story threads...

Galadriel/Numenor
500 men on 5 3 ships is an absolutely tiny army. The Numenorean armor is just... Really bad. The designs themselves range from impractical to ridiculous the quality of the costuming itself is also pretty poor in some areas. This was a known issue since it's something that was apparent in pre-release promotional images, but now we've reached the (first) episode (that some of) that armor appears in.

Elrond/Durin
Continues to be the best of the story threads despite very little happening, carried by the characters involved being reasonably enjoyable. That said, Elrond is an oathbreaker, even if the show won't acknowledge it. When directly asked whether the dwarves had found Mithril, his response is that he promised Durin he'd never reveal the dwearves' secrets. Elrond... You basically just told Gil-Galad "Yes they found it but I'm not allowed to say so". You were asked a yes or no question where any answer that isn't directly "no" is "yes". The only possible secret that you could swear an oath not to reveal that is relevant to the question you were asked is about the freaking mithril. You wouldn't be bringing up your oath in this conversation if what you had sworn was that you'd never reveal Disa's secret recipe for cookies. And that's BEFORE he shows the mithril to Celebrimbor.

And while it got a laugh out of me, Durin's line that it "typically takes you people weeks just to decide to take a sh-" "If I may..." feels incredibly wrong using Tolkien's world and characters. Any other fantasy setting, it would've worked fine, but it's incredibly out of place for Tolkien in the same way sex scenes would be (For the same reason, I really hope those intimacy coordinator rumors turn out to be untrue).

Murder Hobo-its
"Take their wheels and leave them." So now, they don't just abandon those too slow to keep up and don't just put an injured old man who didn't do anything wrong at the back of their caravan, but now we've got one suggesting actively sabotaging them so they'll be stranded. Exiling them I could see the logic in (Nori broke the rules, exile is her punishment. Her family then could choose to stick with her even though they aren't themselves exiled), but this is a step even beyond that. It's not just telling them they're no longer welcome with the group, but making it impossible for them go elsewhere with any more than they can carry on their backs while one of them is already injured.

The bit about Eminem hunting Cavemandalf really should've come earlier. Episode 3 or even the end of episode 2. Depending on where it's going, it could've helped with the pacing.

[Vinyadan]

So the Elves have fallen victim to the lies of the wellness industry and are now looking for ridiculous dietary supplements?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by TheSummoner
Murder Hobo-its

Maybe the showrunners are secretly planning to show us the origins of Gollum’s people, who are not strictly hobbits and may have been a good deal nastier.

[KorvinStarmast]

You know, a season-end (or even next-season) reveal that none of the "Chekov's Saurons" are actually him, and the real Annatar has been chilling with Celbrimbor as his chief designer/muse the whole time would be something.

It would be more likely than Halbrand, since I think Galadriel would sense the evil in Halbrand.

Maybe the showrunners are secretly planning to show us the origins of Gollum’s people, who are not strictly hobbits and may have been a good deal nastier.

That's would be an odd branch to take in the river, but plausible given the other innovations they have introduced.

One of my favorite bits that the writers just made up for this is the dwarf stone singing, or as I like to call it, rock music.

[diplomancer]

It would be more likely than Halbrand, since I think Galadriel would sense the evil in Halbrand.

Galadriel would ;)

But I wouldn't bet on Halbrand, exactly because the showrunners are telegraphing it so much. I suspect we haven't seen Sauron yet, and the idea that he's already manipulating Celebrimbor off-screen is quite plausible.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast
That's would be an odd branch to take in the river, but plausible given the other innovations they have introduced.

The only hitch is the Harfoot name; but maybe Nori splits off with anyone who will follow her, becoming the ancestors of the “real” Harfoots, while the murder-Harfoots drift off towards the river and establish the settlement eventually ruled by Smeagol’s grandmother.

[runeghost]

The repercussions of playing up mithril as being that important and then just abandoning it would be... Jarring to say the least.



Ok, but there are just three elven rings. Hardly enough to... I'm going to go with irradiate... the entire elven race with the mithril.



Have they even elaborated on the different kinds of elves? It's likely the show is just ignoring that such a distinction even exists.

In the Legendarium, the High Elves (elves from Aman - the Noldor) are fading in Middle-earth. Not in an "OMG, we're all gonna die next week" sense, but in that they're losing what they were, and the gifts they gained from their time in the Blessed Realm. Plus, for all Elves in Middle-earth will eventually, over very long spans of time (like longer than the whole First Age to Fourth Age timespan) experience their spirits outliving their bodies - they need to ultimately go to Aman to be renewed/preserved physically.

The Three - really just Nenya and Vilya, as Cirdan alone resisted temptation and never used Narya, and its possible that it was designed to function the differently than other two of the Three - are used after Sauron's defeat to create pocket-realms where that fading is not just slowed, but actively reversed, and that are little bits of Elvish utopia. That's Rivendell and Lothlorien, where most of the high elves, and may others end up, and mostly stay. The two "non-magical" elven realms are Thranduil's woodland realm, and the Havens. Thranduil's people aren't Noldor, and so while they're ultimately in danger of eventual fading in the distant future, they've never been to Aman, so they're not missing anything... but neither can they put forth the power that Elrond, Galadriel and to some extent other High Elves can. (Glorfindel being an extremely special and unique case.) And the Havens, while there might be some lingering Noldor, is also a home of elves who've lived all their lives in Middle-earth.



As it goes on, I find I am enjoying the show quite a bit, but I've also mentally "shifted gears" and tell myself that I'm watching the equivalent of a gaming group going "Hey, we'd like to have a Second Age campaign!" rather than any attempt to specifically depict the story as told. (I.e. they're borrowing the setting, but telling their own story in it, rather than trying to flesh out and portray Tolkien's known but fragmentary Second Age story.)

[Psyren]

No, he's

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Halbrand. His first line was about looks being deceiving. He alluded to the horrible things he's had to do in the past to survive (while avoiding specifics). He's CONSTANTLY being shown having an interest in forging things. I'm still waiting for him to go jewelry shopping, but they've been very heavy handed about this.

For the record, he's my front-runner too. But for him to

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(a) corrupt Eregion all the way from Numenor is a little incredible (like, if he can do that he should already have won even without the rings), and (b) Halbrand's foreshadowing could also point to him becoming the Witch-King etc.

[Sapphire Guard]

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The trailer implies that the people in white are responsible for poisoning the tree

[Psyren]

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The trailer implies that the people in white are responsible for poisoning the tree

My theory was that those were

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the (were)wolves who attacked the Harfoots and Not-Gandalf

[Divayth Fyr]

It would be more likely than Halbrand, since I think Galadriel would sense the evil in Halbrand.

As she is shown in the show? Doubtful.

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Halbrand's foreshadowing could also point to him becoming the Witch-King etc.

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Fits nowhere near as nicely as it being for Sauron, plus the Witch-King was supposedly of Numenorean descent.

You know, a season-end (or even next-season) reveal that none of the "Chekov's Saurons" are actually him, and the real Annatar has been chilling with Celbrimbor as his chief designer/muse the whole time would be something.

I mean, the list of potential Saurons is quite short, unless you're desperate. We have what, 2 candidates right now, one of whom has basically nothing going for them?

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The two are Halbrand and the woman in white. Adar is kinda ruled out at this point, and I don't really see anyone else.

[Aedilred]

For my own thoughts, I'll echo the comments about wheels-spinning and things happening just to kill time. It doesn't feel like much really progressed between the end of 4 and the end of 5. Galadriel was getting ready to set on a ship and then she set off. The hobbits were migrating and they continue to migrate. Arondir was waiting for Adar to attack and he's still waiting. Durin got a new table. A few musings on specific story threads...

Well at the end of the last episode there was a lot of criticism about how the Numenoreans were just going to sail off without any explanation of the volunteer thing or exploration of the political ramifications, etc. and now we get an episode which does all of that and people are criticising the episode for spinning wheels.

I didn't have a problem with the pacing of this episode. The show doesn't need to go at breakneck speed - well, I don't think so, anyway. Spending a bit of time elaborating on things is welcome.

Galadriel/Numenor
500 men on 5 3 ships is an absolutely tiny army. The Numenorean armor is just... Really bad. The designs themselves range from impractical to ridiculous the quality of the costuming itself is also pretty poor in some areas. This was a known issue since it's something that was apparent in pre-release promotional images, but now we've reached the (first) episode (that some of) that armor appears in.

I haven't looked closely at the armour. 500 men is a paltry army though. I don't know if this is just a failure of sense of scale or if this is intended to be the vanguard for a larger host.

Is there anywhere with an actual good look at the Numenorean armour (and ideally some kind of analysis of it) in text and preferably based on the show appearances rather than just the promotional ones? Google is letting me down: I can see a lot of YouTube analyses based on the promotional images but (a) I'm not going to sit through ten minutes of chatter which may or may not be insightful and (b) now that we've got a better look at it I feel analysts can do better than the couple of shots they had in the promos.

Elrond/Durin
Continues to be the best of the story threads despite very little happening, carried by the characters involved being reasonably enjoyable. That said, Elrond is an oathbreaker, even if the show won't acknowledge it. When directly asked whether the dwarves had found Mithril, his response is that he promised Durin he'd never reveal the dwearves' secrets. Elrond... You basically just told Gil-Galad "Yes they found it but I'm not allowed to say so". You were asked a yes or no question where any answer that isn't directly "no" is "yes". The only possible secret that you could swear an oath not to reveal that is relevant to the question you were asked is about the freaking mithril. You wouldn't be bringing up your oath in this conversation if what you had sworn was that you'd never reveal Disa's secret recipe for cookies. And that's BEFORE he shows the mithril to Celebrimbor.

Well he's caught between duties here. If he tells Gil-galad "no, the dwarves haven't found mithril that I know of" then he's lying to his king, as well as further potentially catastrophic consequences. If he tells him the truth, he's breaking his oath to Durin. Neither is acceptable. "I swore an oath not to reveal the secrets of the dwarves" is the only acceptable response, which is the one he gives.

Moreover a straight "no" isn't necessarily definitive. It's perfectly plausible that the dwarves found mithril but Elrond doesn't know that they did. The only certain answer here is a "yes", which is an answer Elrond can't give. What he says amounts to "even if they did, and I knew that they did, I couldn't tell you", or alternatively "there is no point asking me any questions on this subject". It suggests a general-purpose oath which would cover the mithril, but not exclusively. It certainly implies that the dwarves have secrets that Gil-galad might be interested in and which they don't want him to know. But it doesn't provide a satisfactory answer to the question asked, which is about the mithril specifically.

And notably, Gil-galad doesn't go "aha, I see what you did there, nudge-nudge, wink-wink", rather he presses him for a direct answer. At the end of that conversation, Gil-galad is no better-informed about the mithril than he was previously. He knows there is a good chance that the dwarves have found mithril. He knows that, if they have found it, they will be extremely protective of it. But he knew that anyway: that's why he engineered the whole situation. He doesn't know where it is or how much of it they've found, and while he might be able to raise the probability of their having found it by a few percentage points, he still doesn't know for certain. Elrond didn't tell him anything.

I mean, the list of potential Saurons is quite short, unless you're desperate. We have what, 2 candidates right now, one of whom has basically nothing going for them?

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The two are Halbrand and the woman in white. Adar is kinda ruled out at this point, and I don't really see anyone else.

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You're ruling out the Stranger altogether?

We're looking for Sauron because we know he's coming and the show has lampshaded that. They've given us four candidates so far (Halbrand, Adar, the Stranger and Eminem). And in each case (bar Eminem) we've also been given hints that they aren't Sauron. I don't intend to take any of those hints as conclusive until such a point as it becomes inconceivable that the character in question is Sauron, either because they're doing things completely incompatible with Sauron's agenda or because Sauron is already revealed.

Now, I don't think it is Adar (too straightforward, even before the "sacrifice" scene), and the show seems to be leading us away from the Stranger, but if I were setting up a mystery of this type then that kind of misdirection is exactly what I would try to do.

Two things about the Stranger which I don't think I've seen mentioned, and in both cases might be just me.
1) Did the flame pattern in his crater look a bit like an eye?
2) When the white group were at the crater, did the singing in the background sound like it said "Istari" a couple of times?

[KorvinStarmast]

Two things about the Stranger which I don't think I've seen mentioned, and in both cases might be just me.
1) Did the flame pattern in his crater look a bit like an eye?
2) When the white group were at the crater, did the singing in the background sound like it said "Istari" a couple of times?

1. Yes, to me it did when it first showed up. It looked like a red eye.
2. Now I have to go back and revisit that scene again.

[Psyren]

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Fits nowhere near as nicely as it being for Sauron, plus the Witch-King was supposedly of Numenorean descent.

All I'm saying is I'm not definitively ruling anyone out at this point. Obviously you're free to do so.

[Divayth Fyr]

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You're ruling out the Stranger altogether?

We're looking for Sauron because we know he's coming and the show has lampshaded that. They've given us four candidates so far (Halbrand, Adar, the Stranger and Eminem). And in each case (bar Eminem) we've also been given hints that they aren't Sauron. I don't intend to take any of those hints as conclusive until such a point as it becomes inconceivable that the character in question is Sauron, either because they're doing things completely incompatible with Sauron's agenda or because Sauron is already revealed.

Now, I don't think it is Adar (too straightforward, even before the "sacrifice" scene), and the show seems to be leading us away from the Stranger, but if I were setting up a mystery of this type then that kind of misdirection is exactly what I would try to do.

Somehow I managed to forget about him altogether when writing the post. Guess it fits how much I care about that whole part of the show...

[TheSummoner]

The only hitch is the Harfoot name; but maybe Nori splits off with anyone who will follow her, becoming the ancestors of the “real” Harfoots, while the murder-Harfoots drift off towards the river and establish the settlement eventually ruled by Smeagol’s grandmother.

Smeagol was a Stoor if I'm not mistaken.

Well at the end of the last episode there was a lot of criticism about how the Numenoreans were just going to sail off without any explanation of the volunteer thing or exploration of the political ramifications, etc. and now we get an episode which does all of that and people are criticising the episode for spinning wheels.

I didn't have a problem with the pacing of this episode. The show doesn't need to go at breakneck speed - well, I don't think so, anyway. Spending a bit of time elaborating on things is welcome

I think there may be a bit of a misunderstanding here, at least in regards to the Numenor plot. The two points of criticism were
1) 10 days is too short a time to train volunteers for battle
2) The Numenoreans were established as at least a large part of their population hating elves, yet there is no outcry against the announcement.

Showing a training scene does not change point 1 since the window of time is still 10 days. It's also something that could've been glossed over without needing to be shown. If episode 4 had ended with "we set sail in ten days" and episode 5 opens showing them setting sail, then the natural conclusion is that ten days have passed. If it had been one month instead of ten days, the same would be true and it would be a more reasonable timeframe. (One month is still on the short side, but it's not unreasonable as a minimum).

Showing some pushback against the expedition is a good thing, however it's not the sort of thing that the Numenoreans would've had to stew on. At the very least there should've been some murmurings among the crowd the moment it was announced, showing that there's discontent with the idea. Maybe they aren't going to openly defy the queen's decision right away, but it's something that they'd be visibly unhappy about based on the way they've been presented. Showing it at the end of 4 and building on it a bit in 5 would've worked better.

Neither of these things needed to take a full episode, and why it did is largely because of the choice to run four unconnected plotlines simultaneously. The wheels spinning isn't just because of Numenor, though, the other stories also had very little progression.

I haven't looked closely at the armour. 500 men is a paltry army though. I don't know if this is just a failure of sense of scale or if this is intended to be the vanguard for a larger host.

Is there anywhere with an actual good look at the Numenorean armour (and ideally some kind of analysis of it) in text and preferably based on the show appearances rather than just the promotional ones? Google is letting me down: I can see a lot of YouTube analyses based on the promotional images but (a) I'm not going to sit through ten minutes of chatter which may or may not be insightful and (b) now that we've got a better look at it I feel analysts can do better than the couple of shots they had in the promos.

I don't have one on hand, but I'm willing to elaborate.

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In terms of design, they went with scale armor. While uncommon, it is something that existed historically. The advantage of scale armor and (chain)mail, it's easier to maintain and repair than solid plate. If part of it gets damaged, that part can easily be removed and replaced with new scales (or rings). The disadvantage is that every gap is a potential place where a blade can slip through. It's pretty good at protecting from a blade, but not from a point. A sword tip or dagger can slip through and force the individual pieces apart. Now, Miriel's armor is very clearly metal, but for Elendil and the rank and file Numenoreans are less clear. Their armor doesn't have the same shine to it, so maybe it's meant to be some sort of scaled leather. I'll look at the possibility that it's leather, but first we'll stick with Miriel's armor and say that what applies to hers applies to theirs as well if it is supposed to be metal.

Now, the thing about scale however, is that like mail, it doesn't hold a solid form. It sorta flows around the shape of whatever is underneath it. Her armor has a a clear contour that gives it a "boobplate" design. Now, a lot of people criticize "boobplate" armor, but I actually have no problem with it as long as it is otherwise a functional piece (You can google Henry VIII's armor if you want a historical equivalent of that sort of thing being incorporated into real world armor) and if she was wearing a breastplate that was a single solid piece of shaped metal, it would be fine. For scale armor though, it is not possible to get it to hold that shape. The only way such a piece could be designed is if there was a solid piece underneath with the scales layered on top, which would do nothing for the protective properties of the piece and add additional, unnecessary weight. The same issue exists on the pauldrons worn by the others.

Further, while the scales (or rings for mail) are able to move with a bit of freedom, they're still solid metal pieces - they don't flex. Looking at any of their armor, you can see around the shoulder a pretty clear line where the right breastplate (with scales layered on top) ends and there's a hole for their arms. Issue is their arms are still covered in the same scales everything else is. It's over their shoulders and elbows, and all the way down to the wrist and it's a reasonably snug fit. If these were the same rigid metal scales everything else supposedly is, they wouldn't have enough freedom of movement to move their arms, much less fight. In this case, however, the part covering the arms is a shirt with the scale pattern printed on it (most easy to see looking at it fold around the elbows or armpits).

Now, if we assume the scales worn by the other characters are leather rather than metal, that explains why it doesn't have the same shine Miriel's does, but it doesn't do anything to help with the design. There are historical examples of leather armor, but most people's perceptions of it are colored by video games and RPGs, and those get a lot wrong. Historical examples are rare and that's a whole discussion in and of itself, but the short version is that there's some room for debate as to whether that's because it was rare historically or just because leather doesn't survive the passage of time as well as metal does and few examples have survived as a result. An argument in favor of the former is that mass production of leather armor to equip an army would require butchering a lot of otherwise useful livestock which is silly when gambeson is perfectly functional and much cheaper to make.

Regardless, functional leather armor would be made from rigid, hardened leather. The idea that it's still soft and flexible that some people have is a fantasy trope and not at all one that reflects reality. A piece of leather chest armor is, in shape and design, not all that different from a metal breastplate. It's just made from a different material and doesn't offer the same level of protection. When you try to adapt scale (or mail) armor design to leather though, the weaknesses become all the more pronounced to the point where they greatly outweigh the advantages. The gaps between the metal scales are a point vulnerability, but metal can still stand up to a good deal of punishment before it breaks. The strength of leather, even proper hardened leather, is much lower than that of metal and it would take far less force concentrated between the scales to break through it. Even if we assume the leather scales are held together by metal rings or rivets, those metal rings or rivets are still attached to the leather itself.

Well he's caught between duties here. If he tells Gil-galad "no, the dwarves haven't found mithril that I know of" then he's lying to his king, as well as further potentially catastrophic consequences. If he tells him the truth, he's breaking his oath to Durin. Neither is acceptable. "I swore an oath not to reveal the secrets of the dwarves" is the only acceptable response, which is the one he gives.

Moreover a straight "no" isn't necessarily definitive. It's perfectly plausible that the dwarves found mithril but Elrond doesn't know that they did. The only certain answer here is a "yes", which is an answer Elrond can't give. What he says amounts to "even if they did, and I knew that they did, I couldn't tell you", or alternatively "there is no point asking me any questions on this subject". It suggests a general-purpose oath which would cover the mithril, but not exclusively. It certainly implies that the dwarves have secrets that Gil-galad might be interested in and which they don't want him to know. But it doesn't provide a satisfactory answer to the question asked, which is about the mithril specifically.

Oh, I agree he's caught between two duties, but trying to take a third option just breaks his obligation to both. The end result is he refused to answer a direct question from his king but still gave Gil-galad enough information that any reasonable person could conclude that yes, the dwarves have Mithril. Put yourself in Gil-galad's position. What is the natural assumption that the oath is about when Elrond only brings it up in response to a direct question about mithril? Again, he's not going to assume that it's about Disa's secret recipe for dwarven cookies (The secret ingredient is cinnamon. I've sworn no such oaths, so I can tell you that).

And notably, Gil-galad doesn't go "aha, I see what you did there, nudge-nudge, wink-wink", rather he presses him for a direct answer. At the end of that conversation, Gil-galad is no better-informed about the mithril than he was previously. He knows there is a good chance that the dwarves have found mithril. He knows that, if they have found it, they will be extremely protective of it. But he knew that anyway: that's why he engineered the whole situation. He doesn't know where it is or how much of it they've found, and while he might be able to raise the probability of their having found it by a few percentage points, he still doesn't know for certain. Elrond didn't tell him anything.

Gil-galad is only no better informed because he apparently didn't put any thought into why Elrond would be bringing up an oath or what that oath would be about.

Really, the entire setup requires some gigantic leaps of logic. Gil-galad suspects the dwarfs have found mithril so he sends Elrond to Celebrimbor under the assumption that Elrond will suggest going to the dwarves for help with Celebrimbor's project, then go to visit the dwarves, and while there stumble across the mithril despite Elrond not knowing anything about it and having no reason to be looking for it. If Elrond was willing to refuse to answer his king, it's only a small bit further to say something like "I had no idea I was supposed to be looking for mithril" which would imply he hasn't seen any without actually having to directly lie and say he doesn't have any in his pocketses

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You're ruling out the Stranger altogether?

We're looking for Sauron because we know he's coming and the show has lampshaded that. They've given us four candidates so far (Halbrand, Adar, the Stranger and Eminem). And in each case (bar Eminem) we've also been given hints that they aren't Sauron. I don't intend to take any of those hints as conclusive until such a point as it becomes inconceivable that the character in question is Sauron, either because they're doing things completely incompatible with Sauron's agenda or because Sauron is already revealed.

Now, I don't think it is Adar (too straightforward, even before the "sacrifice" scene), and the show seems to be leading us away from the Stranger, but if I were setting up a mystery of this type then that kind of misdirection is exactly what I would try to do.

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Can't be Cavemandalf. Sauron was already active in Middle Earth. He wouldn't need to arrive in a giant flaming meteor.

[hamishspence]

Smeagol was a Stoor if I'm not mistaken.

Yup - or proto-Stoor at least:

'Long after, but still very long ago, there lived by the banks of the Great River on the edge of Wilderland a clever-handed and quiet-footed little people. I guess they were of hobbit-kind; akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors, for they loved the River, and often swam in it, or made little boats of reeds. There was among them a family of high repute, for it was large and wealthier than most, and it was ruled by a grandmother of the folk, stern and wise in old lore, such as they had. The most inquisitive and curious-minded of that family was called Smeagol.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by TheSummoner
Smeagol was a Stoor if I'm not mistaken.

That seems to be a fan theory on some sites, but I’m not seeing anything in the books which directly states this. And Stoors being of a heavier build doesn’t match with Gollum’s scrawy, wiry body.

The closest I can find is Gandalf’s description of a “clever-handed and quiet-footed little people,” in Fellowship Chapter Two (already quoted by hamish), in particular this line:

“I guess they were of hobbit-kind; akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors, for they loved the River, and often swam in it, or made little boats of reeds.”

This is a very distant relation to the Stoors, and Gandalf seems to be drawing the comparison based on both peoples’ affinity for riversides. If this is all we have to go on, then the most we can say is that Gollum is descended from a group of hobbit-like creatures who were related to the ancestors of Stoors, which is very different from claiming Gollum is a Stoor himself.

Originally Posted by hamishspence
…or proto-Stoor at least….

Descended from ancestors related to proto-Stoors, which is still fairly distant.

[hamishspence]

This is a very distant relation to the Stoors, and Gandalf seems to be drawing the comparison based on both peoples’ affinity for riversides. If this is all we have to go on, then the most we can say is that Gollum is descended from a group of hobbit-like creatures who were related to the ancestors of Stoors, which is very different from claiming Gollum is a Stoor himself.

The implication is that Gollum's ancestors were more closely related to the Stoors than to the Harfoots and the Fallohides.

In modern terms, if you drew a cladogram with the various branches, Gollum's clan would have "forked off from the Stoor branch" rather than either of the two others.

Stoors being of a heavier build doesn’t match with Gollum’s scrawy, wiry body.

500-odd years of near-starvation underground doing a heck of a number on his physique, I think, is the intended explanation.

[Vinyadan]

It's probably worth observing that Gollum is relatively recent: 500-600 years old. He finds the Ring 800 years after the Shire was given to the Hobbits by the King of Arnor.