The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[Divayth Fyr]

Eh, I'd say all our plot threads thus far are in the okay-to-good range, with the Southland thread by far the weakest and Elrond-Durin by far the strongest and everything else falling in the middle.

I find Galadriel's bits to be the lowest point of the show - mostly due to the reasons Sapphire Guard posted just a bit above.

[ecarden]

I find Galadriel's bits to be the lowest point of the show - mostly due to the reasons Sapphire Guard posted just a bit above.

I can see that, but tend to disagree, as the reason given by the High King in the scene that follows isn't 'no one believes her' but that her hunt is too loud and risks causing the problem she's trying to solve. We'll see what happens with that and it may well end up being nothing, or the standard hero opposed by authority figure, but we'll see.

[Aeson]

Agreed, it's not as if she punched it twice and the whole thing exploded. Just watched again and the ice wall is 10, max 15 cm thick. First punch cracked it, second blew out a fist sized hole with a bit of mushrooming at the back. Not a superhuman feat, but one that is within the realm of normal (though exceptional)/semi supernatural possibilities.

If you truly mean ten to fifteen centimeters, then you're grossly underestimating the strength of ice. Ice that's 10 centimeters (~4 inches) thick is strong enough to support a group of people walking on it; ice that's 15 centimeters (~6 inches) thick is strong enough to support a small car. You are not punching a fist-shaped hole through an ice wall that's uniformly that thick in two hits unless you're significantly stronger than a human.

[Aedilred]

Even doing that, though, I found Galadriel's plotline generic and regressive. She has the 'I'm right, why isn't anyone listening to me?' plotline that only works if you take away all her power in the name of empowering her, acting like the biggest victim that ever victimed while being a strong contender for 'most privileged person in Middle Earth.'

I do agree with this and I'm not entirely happy with the way Galadriel is being done. But since it's obvious this is the way it's being done and has been since before the show launched I'm trying just to see where they go with it, rather than getting wound up about the portrayal of Galadriel and/or apparent unoriginality of the setup.

If you truly mean ten to fifteen centimeters, then you're grossly underestimating the strength of ice. Ice that's 10 centimeters (~4 inches) thick is strong enough to support a group of people walking on it; ice that's 15 centimeters (~6 inches) thick is strong enough to support a small car. You are not punching a fist-shaped hole through an ice wall that's uniformly that thick in two hits unless you're significantly stronger than a human.

This guy begs to differ.

Looking at the scene again, the ice is a couple of inches thick with nothing behind it or apparently supporting it. I don't find it remotely implausible that a great elf such as Galadriel could punch through it in a couple of hits, or even that a properly trained peak-human couldn't. It might stretch things a bit, but if that's what people are zeroing in on it suggests they either can't see the wood for the trees or they're looking for things to take issue with.

[Sapphire Guard]

At what point does it become okay to be critical, then?

Discard what you know of Tolkien, I did that trying to evaluate it as an independent. That's why I watched it in the first place, because I didn't want to misjudge it based on reviews or promo material. But as an independent work, Galadriel's plot comes off as regressive and sexist, while the Harfoot plot leans in hard to some very uncomfortable anti-Irish stereotypes.

It's obviously done with the best of intentions, and so not a dealbreaker, but that's... not a great place to be, two episodes in, especially when so much of the promo material was about how inclusive they were going to be.

[ecarden]

At what point does it become okay to be critical, then?

I mean, is anyone saying you can't be critical? I'm saying why I'm holding off judgment, but then again, I'm enjoying the show, so it's hardly a sacrifice for me to keep watching.

[Aeson]

This guy begs to differ.

Looking at the scene again, the ice is a couple of inches thick with nothing behind it or apparently supporting it. I don't find it remotely implausible that a great elf such as Galadriel could punch through it in a couple of hits, or even that a properly trained peak-human couldn't. It might stretch things a bit, but if that's what people are zeroing in on it suggests they either can't see the wood for the trees or they're looking for things to take issue with.

Your video shows someone splitting a stack of ice blocks in half at roughly the midpoint of an approximately four-foot-wide unsupported span; there appears to be no significant damage to the block's upper surface - his fist hasn't penetrated the block to any noticeable extent - and while it is difficult to be certain given the video quality and the angle of the shot there did not appear to be any spalling when the block broke. This is both very different from and significantly easier than - especially given the setup shown, where the ice column is not only composed of distinct blocks with a wide unsupported span but also has clearly-visible gaps between each block and the one below it - what Maestrom described, i.e. punching a roughly-cylindrical ~100mm- (~4"-) diameter ("fist-sized") hole through a block of ice. Given the assumption that Galadriel is not supernaturally strong, Galadriel punching the icewall and causing it to fracture and fall down would be significantly more believable than Galadriel punching the icewall and having her fist blow through it like an artillery shell penetrating a piece of armor plate ("second blew out a fist sized hole with a bit of mushrooming at the back." - Maelstrom).

[ecarden]

Your video shows someone splitting a stack of ice blocks in half at roughly the midpoint of an approximately four-foot-wide unsupported span; there appears to be no significant damage to the block's upper surface - his fist hasn't penetrated the block to any noticeable extent - and while it is difficult to be certain given the video quality and the angle of the shot there did not appear to be any spalling when the block broke. This is both very different from and significantly easier than - especially given the setup shown, where the ice column is not only composed of distinct blocks with a wide unsupported span but also has clearly-visible gaps between each block and the one below it - what Maestrom described, i.e. punching a roughly-cylindrical ~100mm- (~4"-) diameter ("fist-sized") hole through a block of ice. Given the assumption that Galadriel is not supernaturally strong, Galadriel punching the icewall and causing it to fracture and fall down would be significantly more believable than Galadriel punching the icewall and having her fist blow through it like an artillery shell penetrating a piece of armor plate ("second blew out a fist sized hole with a bit of mushrooming at the back." - Maelstrom).

If this is so concerning, you can see the clip in episode 1, starting 12 minutes in. It lasts approximately 8 seconds.

Personally, I'd say the ice is far thinner than 4 inches, though it's hard to tell.

But, yes, she definitely has superhuman strength. This is even more clear in the scene where she jumps over a troll in full battle gear as part of fighting it.

[runeghost]

From Lord of the Rings, Appendix B - The Tale of Years

After the fall of the Dark Tower and the passing of Sauron the Shadow was lifted from the hearts of all who opposed him, but fear and despair fell upon his servants and allies. Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but besides the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, unless Sauron had come there himself. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back; and when the Shadow passed, Celeborn came forth and led the host of Lórien over Anduin in many boats. They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed.

And people are complaining about ice?!? (And this is explicitly after Nenya has been toasted by the destruction of the One.)

[Aeson]

you can see the clip in episode 1, starting 12 minutes in. It lasts approximately 8 seconds.

Can I? That would, if I am not mistaken, require me to subscribe to Amazon's streaming service, but from what I'm seeing in this thread Rings of Power isn't good enough to be the sole justification for that and I can't think of anything else there that I actually want to see badly enough to pay for, whether on its own or in combination with other things on the service.

And people are complaining about ice?!? (And this is explicitly after Nenya has been toasted by the destruction of the One.)

Galadriel presumably did not go around personally kicking the walls of Dol Guldur with her own feet until they fell over or grabbing blocks out of the walls and throwing them over her shoulder; the most reasonable interpretations of "Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur" are things like "Galadriel - Queen of Lothlorien - ordered the fortress razed" and "Galadriel - a powerful sorceress - used her magic to level a castle," and neither of those is a form of power relevant to your ability to punch a hole in a wall with your fist - especially considering that Lord of the Rings does not appear to have a direct analogue to something like Divine Might.

[KorvinStarmast]

The relationship between them is never entirely clear as Gil-Galad's ancestry changes between various versions of Tolkien's work. In the Silmarillion he is the son of Fingon, and therefore grandson of Fingolfin, but the generally accepted version now is that he was the son of Orodreth, and therefore great-grandson of Finarfin.

I do not accept that "version" - the Silmarillion is my point of reference. While I appreciate that Christopher Tolkien made a lot of money releasing those other books and notes, I am far more inclined to take The Silmarillion as "canon" and the rest as maybe another idea.
PS: Han shot first!

[ecarden]

Can I? That would, if I am not mistaken, require me to subscribe to Amazon's streaming service, but from what I'm seeing in this thread Rings of Power isn't good enough to be the sole justification for that and I can't think of anything else there that I actually want to see badly enough to pay for, whether on its own or in combination with other things on the service..

My apologies, given your obvious interest in this matter, I assume you were watching, or planning to watch the show.

As you aren't, I think I'll disengage. Have a good one.

[Dienekes]

At what point does it become okay to be critical, then?

Discard what you know of Tolkien, I did that trying to evaluate it as an independent. That's why I watched it in the first place, because I didn't want to misjudge it based on reviews or promo material. But as an independent work, Galadriel's plot comes off as regressive and sexist, while the Harfoot plot leans in hard to some very uncomfortable anti-Irish stereotypes.

It's obviously done with the best of intentions, and so not a dealbreaker, but that's... not a great place to be, two episodes in, especially when so much of the promo material was about how inclusive they were going to be.

You can be critical whenever and wherever you wish.

Just don't always expect to be listened to. Your opinions are your own. You can most certainly have them, and follow them. But you have to be convincing to well convince people that you're correct.

For what little it matters, my own opinions:

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I've enjoyed it thus far. Galadriel being made from the untouchable mage I'm familiar with to a warrior women is a change, but one I'm keen to embrace. Swords are cooler than magic, always have been. Elrond has so far been interesting, I like the little note they've made that he isn't quite seen as one of the lords, even though individuals Gil-Gilad and presumably Celebrimbor recognize his value.

I enjoy the Harfoots, chuckled to myself with all of them appearing out of their homes when the humans disappeared. I also enjoyed showing the potential struggle of life of nomads, how a relatively minor thing today: a sprained ankle, could in fact be a fairly devastating issue.

Don't particularly care about the elf-human romance they've shown. But I am interested with the son having a Morgul blade or something and what that will mean.

Greatly enjoyed the Dwarves. I was worried that they would have Elrond out-Dwarf the Dwarves to prove himself, much preferred as they had it. I rather enjoyed the characters of Disa and Durin, but I still shake my head at her lack of beard. A cowardly choice if ever there was one.

And I'm interested in who the comet man is. I have my suspicions but I'm engaged in seeing where it goes. And was that a Silmaril or the Arkenstone that Durin III has in his box?

It's not all roses though, there is some dialogue that I really think could have been done better. The one that sticks out to me is the introduction of Celebrimbor, where they just have Elrond exclaim why he is important to someone who most certainly already knows all that. It wouldn't even be all that hard to fix it to sounds more natural. Just have Gil-gilad introduce him like a normal person and have Elrond gush about some piece of craftsmanship he'd seen. Done. We get the man is important, we get he is a creator, and we get Elrond is a fan.

There were a few little snippets like that throughout. All of which sound like something the writers were forced to add because some exec or another thought the audience was too dumb to get it without spelling it out in bad dialogue.

That said, overall, I appreciate the efforts I've seen. I'm engaged to see where it goes.

Is it Tolkien? No.

Am I enjoying it anyway? Yeah, it's alright.

[factotum]

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And was that a Silmaril or the Arkenstone that Durin III has in his box?

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Unless they're driving a 35-ton truck through the canon it can't be either. The Arkenstone was explicitly found in the Lonely Mountain, and since Durin's Folk are still in Khazad-dum they haven't found it yet. As for the Silmarils, their dispositions are clearly given at the end of the Silmarillion and none is in the hands of a Dwarf.

[Divayth Fyr]

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Unless they're driving a 35-ton truck through the canon it can't be either. The Arkenstone was explicitly found in the Lonely Mountain, and since Durin's Folk are still in Khazad-dum they haven't found it yet. As for the Silmarils, their dispositions are clearly given at the end of the Silmarillion and none is in the hands of a Dwarf.

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Eh, the show already kinda is. The timeline, Galadriel's (lack of) family, two Durins at the same time etc... Though I wouldn't be surprised if they went with something even dumber, like mithril holding the light of [whatever]

[pendell]

Can I? That would, if I am not mistaken, require me to subscribe to Amazon's streaming service, but from what I'm seeing in this thread Rings of Power isn't good enough to be the sole justification for that and I can't think of anything else there that I actually want to see badly enough to pay for, whether on its own or in combination with other things on the service.


Galadriel presumably did not go around personally kicking the walls of Dol Guldur with her own feet until they fell over or grabbing blocks out of the walls and throwing them over her shoulder; the most reasonable interpretations of "Galadriel threw down the walls of Dol Guldur" are things like "Galadriel - Queen of Lothlorien - ordered the fortress razed" and "Galadriel - a powerful sorceress - used her magic to level a castle," and neither of those is a form of power relevant to your ability to punch a hole in a wall with your fist - especially considering that Lord of the Rings does not appear to have a direct analogue to something like Divine Might.

We're reading through this in the Silmarillion; the most likely analog is Luthien's destruction of Tol-N-Gaurhoth. As elaborated on in "Beren and Luthien", Sauron had added magic to the tower, with the result that if one knew the proper words one could break the spell and cause the whole thing to fall down. Luthien forced Sauron to give up the spell in exchange for his continued existence in a body, then spoke the phrase.

You might say the tower was ... triggered

Then the whole thing fell into a great pile of rocks.

Since Barad-dur fell apart after the Ring was destroyed, it seems this is a feature of evil overlord design in Middle-Earth; Barad-dur was in part held up by the magic of the ring, so when the magic disappeared the tower fell down too.

Further on, it may be that other peoples used the same technique. The Ents couldn't make a dent in the stone of Orthanc, possible due to magic, and to knock down the gate of Minas Tirith the siege engine had "spells of ruin" upon it. Presumably ordinary physical force would not have been enough.

So; magic is frequently used to strengthen structures in middle-earth, and if it is withdrawn they fall apart. Dol Goldur did not fall down on its own, which implies that either it did not have magic in its structure or -- more likely -- that magic was added but it didn't come from the Ring, so didn't disappear when the Ring did. Does that imply the structure was not built by Sauron, who probably would have used the Ring, but is instead a holdover from an earlier civilization, like the doors of Moria?

So here's my answer: After the orcish armies were defeated, Galadriel loosed the binding spell holding the tower together, and it fell apart.

She would have either have to have forced knowledge of the spell from someone who knew it, or else she might have done it the way Gandalf tried at the doors -- work through all the spells she knew until she found one that worked. Or perhaps she could have used the Mirror of Galadriel to look into the past and see the original creation of the tower, learning the spell that way.

Come to think of it -- that first method sounds a lot like the classic 'dictionary attack' of computer security. Or maybe she tried the dark lord's birthday. Or maybe she sent out lots of mails by carrier pigeon marked "You may have already won a thousand pieces of gold". Or maybe she just went through Dol Guldor's trash, then used what she learned to steal Sauron's personal credentials.

Galadriel: Identity thief, social engineer and wizard-class (hah) hacker. Truly a heroine for our age

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

And I'm interested in who the comet man is. I have my suspicions but I'm engaged in seeing where it goes. And was that a Silmaril or the Arkenstone that Durin III has in his box? [/spoiler]

My two centavo bet is that it's

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mithril aka true silver,

hence the shininess.

Am I enjoying it anyway? Yeah, it's alright.

Yep. They have a lot of room to work with given how little 2d Age lore there is.

[Divayth Fyr]

Does that imply the structure was not built by Sauron, who probably would have used the Ring, but is instead a holdover from an earlier civilization, like the doors of Moria?

The place was an elven stronghold before Sauron moved in - the capital of the silvan elves in fact.

My two centavo bet is that it's

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mithril aka true silver,

hence the shininess.

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Sounds plausible. Though I don't think shininess on this level was ever mentioned.

Yep. They have a lot of room to work with given how little 2d Age lore there is.

Even more room when you throw some out the window for no real reason (Durin, son of Durin indeed...).

[Dienekes]

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Unless they're driving a 35-ton truck through the canon it can't be either. The Arkenstone was explicitly found in the Lonely Mountain, and since Durin's Folk are still in Khazad-dum they haven't found it yet. As for the Silmarils, their dispositions are clearly given at the end of the Silmarillion and none is in the hands of a Dwarf.

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I honestly don't consider either of those gargantuan truck canon shatterers. What does it matter where the Arkenstone was found? All it is, is a fancy rock that Thorin wants. Whether it was found by Durin III or Thrain the key elements and meaning of the story remains unchanged.

As to the Silmaril, yeah that's bigger. But as long as the end point is "lost" then I don't really think it matters all that much either.

Now, the important thing, for me, is if their inclusion would create interesting drama and a meaningful story. And i think there's potential for both of them to do so.

[KorvinStarmast]

The place was an elven stronghold before Sauron moved in - the capital of the silvan elves in fact.

Dol Guldur was once the elfin capital? Hmm, guessing that's on History of Middle Earth volumes somewhere, so I did a deep dive at Tolkien Gateway and just now came up for air.

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Sounds plausible. Though I don't think shininess on this level was ever mentioned.

I don't recall if it was a LoTR appendix or a Hobbit entry that indicated its soft glow. Might have been when Bilbo got the shirt from Thorin in The Hobbit.

" Mithril! All folk desired it. It could be beaten like copper, and polished like glass; and the Dwarves could make of it a metal, light and yet harder than tempered steel. Its beauty was like to that of common silver, but the beauty of mithril did not tarnish or grow dim." ― Gandalf in The Fellowship of the Ring, "A Journey in the Dark"

Mithril was a precious metal that shone like silver, and was stronger than tempered steel, but much lighter in weight. It could be beaten like copper and polished like glass. Over time it did not tarnish or grow dim. The Elves called it mithril, but the Dwarves had their own, secret name for it. It was also known as Moria-silver or true-silver and desired by all races.

FWIW: mithril consists of two Sindarin words; mith ("grey, light grey") + ril ("brilliance"). Could be naturally shiny, not sure.

Even more room when you throw some out the window for no real reason (Durin, son of Durin indeed...).

Yeah, that was not necessary.

[runeghost]

Watched the second episode. I think my broad conclusion is this feels like a very good TV show adaptation of a Tolkien ripoff novel from like 1983, where for some reason nobody noticed some of the characters have names from Lord of the Rings. This is not even of itself a ding, I love me some oldschool Tolkien knockoffs, and the writers capture that feel perfectly, intentionally or not. But it isn't super Tolkienesque to me. I like the character of Galadriel in this show, she has absolutely nothing in common with book or movie Galadriel.

Are you thinking Sword of Shannara? (Technically 1977, but when I see "Tolkien ripoff" it's the first thing I think of.) 1983 had a lot of quite good non-Tolkien-derived novels:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cate...fantasy_novels

[Tyndmyr]

If you truly mean ten to fifteen centimeters, then you're grossly underestimating the strength of ice. Ice that's 10 centimeters (~4 inches) thick is strong enough to support a group of people walking on it; ice that's 15 centimeters (~6 inches) thick is strong enough to support a small car. You are not punching a fist-shaped hole through an ice wall that's uniformly that thick in two hits unless you're significantly stronger than a human.

Floating atop of water, ice is a great deal more supported and hence, stronger, than in a freestanding wall. How strong depends on the type of ice, but you probably want to be careful if attempting a similar feat in real life, as falling ice chunks can be very heavy and it's pretty easy to hurt yourself. A little bit like punching through glass. It can be done, but it might end really badly if incautious.

That wouldn't break my suspension of disbelief, I think. Yeah, it's certainly an indication that she is strong, but Tolkien's elves have not generally been portrayed as weak. It's a feat, but not one that is greatly outside of human capacity.

I'm not super interested in the show, but something like this won't bother me unless it somehow undermines something important.

[warty goblin]

Are you thinking Sword of Shannara? (Technically 1977, but when I see "Tolkien ripoff" it's the first thing I think of.) 1983 had a lot of quite good non-Tolkien-derived novels:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cate...fantasy_novels

I wasn't really thinking of any novel or series in particular, it just had the same sort of feel. The author read LoTR, went yeah I want to write something kinda like that, and then went and had approximately no original ideas while doing exactly that. So you get a returning evil Sauron stand in, orc substitutes invading boring agricultural towns, bucolic Hobbit replacements getting pulled into a bigger and more dangerous world, an entirely bad and unconvincing romance, cranky dwarves, wise elves, a super-saturated color palette, the works.

Which isn't a bad thing, I have a lot of affection for Tolkien pastiche. And honestly Ring of Power is at its best for me when it leans into just being The Generic Fantasy Show because I like traditional generic fantasy. It's fun, an excellent medium for a good adventure story, and because of it's plot focus and loosy-goosy worldbuilding is free to do cool stuff in a way more constrained or character based stories struggle with.

[pendell]

I wasn't really thinking of any novel or series in particular, it just had the same sort of feel. The author read LoTR, went yeah I want to write something kinda like that, and then went and had approximately no original ideas while doing exactly that. So you get a returning evil Sauron stand in, orc substitutes invading boring agricultural towns, bucolic Hobbit replacements getting pulled into a bigger and more dangerous world, an entirely bad and unconvincing romance, cranky dwarves, wise elves, a super-saturated color palette, the works.

Which isn't a bad thing, I have a lot of affection for Tolkien pastiche. And honestly Ring of Power is at its best for me when it leans into just being The Generic Fantasy Show because I like traditional generic fantasy. It's fun, an excellent medium for a good adventure story, and because of it's plot focus and loosy-goosy worldbuilding is free to do cool stuff in a way more constrained or character based stories struggle with.

There was at least one difference: Sword of Shannara is post-holocaust. The world of Sword is our world several hundred years in the future, after nuclear wars have triggered off waves of mutations. Gnomes, for example, are descendants of people who sheltered underground from the bomb blasts. The elves in setting are the only intelligent creatures who aren't descended from modern humans; they've always been around, but were in hiding during what is to us the CE time frame, when humans dominated the planet.

There is at least one other difference as well:

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The Sword of Shannara has only one power: To reveal truth and destroy illusions. That's why it is death to our dark lord stand-in, whose name I forget. Being built on lies and illusions, he disintegrates when brought into contact with Truth.

So I would call Sword of Shannara Tolkien-adjacent but I wouldn't say it's completely devoid of original thought. That being said, it didn't make much of an impact on the culture either. There were a whole set of books in setting (Sword of Shannara, Elfstones of Shannara, Wishsong of Shannara, many others) and yet, for all their success, I only just now thought of them. In my own personal conscious, they made less of an impact than R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt books, which were D&D tie-in novels.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dragonus45]

So I would call Sword of Shannara Tolkien-adjacent but I wouldn't say it's completely devoid of original thought. That being said, it didn't make much of an impact on the culture either. There were a whole set of books in setting (Sword of Shannara, Elfstones of Shannara, Wishsong of Shannara, many others) and yet, for all their success, I only just now thought of them. In my own personal conscious, they made less of an impact than R.A. Salvatore's Drizzt books, which were D&D tie-in novels.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Shannara has a lot to recommend it as a unique story, but it got kind of lost in the crowd. Getting a TV adaptation could have been an amazing moment for it to break through but... that didn't work out.

[pendell]

Update: Reading the bibliography on the wiki page , Sword of Shannara has thirty-one main line novels, published from 1977 (Sword of Shannara) up to 2020 (The Last Druid). That last book is the last chronological entry in the series; while Terry Brooks will continue churning out stories, they will be set at other points in the timeline earlier than The Last Druid. That doesn't count the short stories or graphic novel that he also made in the Shannara universe.

Odd. I had no idea he was still writing these books. And what's even more interesting is that, despite the fact that the series is still being written forty years after its creation, it has no penetration into the D&D/RPG world at all. I don't recall ever seeing a module set in the Shannara verse, or any attempt to create adventures. Despite the fact it seems that it would be an easy port.

While the first Shannara novel has been criticized as overly derivative from Tolkien, that isn't a criticism that can be levelled at the series as a whole. Did Tolkien have airships? Just one: Vingilot. It's not the story point in his stories the way it is in Brooks.

It's also a cautionary note that product quantity is not the same as product quality : As I mentioned, on average Terry Brooks writes one of these novels a year yet hardly anyone in the RPG community or the wider global audience talks about them. By contrast, Tolkien write four books which took something like a decade on average to write each, and yet not just the SF/Fantasy community but the larger global community as a whole can't get enough of them.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dragonus45]

It's also a cautionary note that product quantity is not the same as product quality : As I mentioned, on average Terry Brooks writes one of these novels a year yet hardly anyone in the RPG community or the wider global audience talks about them. By contrast, Tolkien write four books which took something like a decade on average to write each, and yet not just the SF/Fantasy community but the larger global community as a whole can't get enough of them.

The guy has sold like 25 million books, so certainly a lot of people are reading them. Might just be a matter of what nerd circles you move in but running D&D at various conventions I've gotten into multiple conversations drinking with other DMs and people in the industry where they have come up in conversation, and there have been adaptations as well. There was a game in the 90s, I remember my first DM had a Dragon Magazine entirely about running in the setting with a decently sized map, there was a TV show as well that generated a fair bit of buzz before it was made clear it was a total mess. But, a single Dragon Magazine or just an decent knowledge of whatever the rules for the system you are running are all a person would really need for running it. I would argue it has things to make it distinct from Tolkien and that style of story but as far as representing the mechanics of the world go it's still very much in line with classic fantasy mechanically.

[Divayth Fyr]

The guy has sold like 25 million books, so certainly a lot of people are reading them.

And yet, barring a few groups here and there, there isn't much talk about them. I heard of Shannara before, sure, but thought about it as some old, long-finished series that is gathering dust (and hoped to get something more with the tv adaptation...). Apparently couldn't be more wrong...

[Aedilred]

Discard what you know of Tolkien, I did that trying to evaluate it as an independent. That's why I watched it in the first place, because I didn't want to misjudge it based on reviews or promo material. But as an independent work, Galadriel's plot comes off as regressive and sexist, while the Harfoot plot leans in hard to some very uncomfortable anti-Irish stereotypes.

I'm not Irish, so I don't pretend to understand where the apparent offence is coming from, but I've yet to see any real explanation of the supposed "anti-Irish stereotypes" in the Harfoots other than that they have Irish accents and are a bit grubby. The actually offensive Irish stereotypes I could come up with (but won't) aren't things I've noticed in their portrayal. But again, I might be missing something.

I might, however, query whether it's any worse than the West Country stereotypes depicted in the Hobbits in the movies. (I am a Westcountryman - and no, I wasn't offended).

I do not accept that "version" - the Silmarillion is my point of reference. While I appreciate that Christopher Tolkien made a lot of money releasing those other books and notes, I am far more inclined to take The Silmarillion as "canon" and the rest as maybe another idea.
PS: Han shot first!

Well, even the Silmarillion was released posthumously to JRR and edited by Christopher. So you're getting Christopher either way, and the later versions may be more rounded and informed.

With that said, I think I prefer the initial version of Gil-Galad's parentage, personally: something about his role as warrior-hero-martyr-king feels more appropriate for a descendant of Fingolfin than of Finarfin.
But perhaps that's the point - that while GG is a great warrior, his principal role is as a diplomat and statesman who's able to reunify (to some degree) the elves after the disasters of the First Age, and a descendant of Finarfin is better-suited for dealing with the Sindar than a Fingolfinid.

[Sapphire Guard]

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/t...bn-well-spent/

This particular article is overblown, but it's not coming from nothing, for reasons I can't discuss.

I am Irish, for whatever that's worth, and while I wouldn't say I'm offended, it does catch my attention, as a lack of attention to detail, and the Harfoot scenes amp up the slapstick comedy and moments where the point of the scene is 'look how stupid this person is'. They wouldn't have Galadriel chase a runaway wheelbarrow.

Fantasy accents are basically a poisoned chalice, though. Use British accents and you end up generic, but use anything else and you immediately get hit by a bunch of thinkpieces about whether the use of the accent is intended to reflect the real world people using the same accent.

The only way around that is make up an accent with no real world counterpart, which is far too much work.

I mean, is anyone saying you can't be critical? I'm saying why I'm holding off judgment, but then again, I'm enjoying the show, so it's hardly a sacrifice for me to keep watching.

That's fair. I read Aedilred's post as 'stop being wound up about this', and in hindsight I was mistaken.

I don't think we can determine the structural integrity of ice just by looking at it, although I didn't catch how she knew there was something behind it. It basically depends on a lot of things we can't possibly know, like how long it was frozen, whether it thinned out, whether that was some kind of enchantment to seal the room without making it inaccessible, and so on...

Spoiler: also in hindsight...

Show

Elrond pulled a very clever piece of diplomacy there. He uses the rite to get in the door, but winning the contest would make Durin embarrassed and angry, which is counterproductive. So he throws the contest to put Durin in a good mood for the purposes of weaselling into his family dinner, giving him time to make his sales pitch.

The original conflict is odd though. Whether an invitation to Durin's wedding and what happened to it if so was sent is the key point, but it goes unaddressed.