The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[TheSummoner]

Spoiler: also in hindsight...

Show

Elrond pulled a very clever piece of diplomacy there. He uses the rite to get in the door, but winning the contest would make Durin embarrassed and angry, which is counterproductive. So he throws the contest to put Durin in a good mood for the purposes of weaselling into his family dinner, giving him time to make his sales pitch.

The original conflict is odd though. Whether an invitation to Durin's wedding and what happened to it if so was sent is the key point, but it goes unaddressed.

Spoiler

Show

He throws a contest in which the consequence of failure is permanent banishment from the dwarven lands. The only reason it works out is because Durin didn't hold true to the word he gave in front of his people... While he was explaining a part of their own culture that they can reasonably be expected to already know. Clever is not a word I would use for that scene.

On the subject of not clever, did I miss something, or was Galadriel's plan after deciding she didn't want to go to the undying lands to just jump into the ocean and swim back?

[Divayth Fyr]

Spoiler

Show

He throws a contest in which the consequence of failure is permanent banishment from the dwarven lands. The only reason it works out is because Durin didn't hold true to the word he gave in front of his people... While he was explaining a part of their own culture that they can reasonably be expected to already know. Clever is not a word I would use for that scene.

On the subject of not clever, did I miss something, or was Galadriel's plan after deciding she didn't want to go to the undying lands to just jump into the ocean and swim back?

Spoiler

Show

Yeah, while I consider the Elrond/Durin bits the least bad, they're still not great, and show how bad the writing is. Clearly his father was right when he said Durin has sandstone in his granite when it comes to elves. Doing the opposite of what you declared to do (ie banish Elrond) is not a good look for the future monarch.

And another example of exposition done like that would be the Feanor's hammer bit. Doubt either character needed explaining who he was and what he did...

And no, seems there was no plan beyond that. Galadriel is a strong, independant character, planning and logic are for weaklings

[TheSummoner]

Spoiler

Show

Yeah, while I consider the Elrond/Durin bits the least bad, they're still not great, and show how bad the writing is. Clearly his father was right when he said Durin has sandstone in his granite when it comes to elves. Doing the opposite of what you declared to do (ie banish Elrond) is not a good look for the future monarch.

And another example of exposition done like that would be the Feanor's hammer bit. Doubt either character needed explaining who he was and what he did...

And no, seems there was no plan beyond that. Galadriel is a strong, independant character, planning and logic are for weaklings

Spoiler

Show

Well, I guess it's just convenient for her that there was a raft out there. In the middle of the ocean. A raft. In the middle of the ocean. Yes, the repetition is necessary to highlight just how stupid that is.

I suppose she probably should've let them know about the sea monster. She picked out right away that it wasn't actually a ship. Seems like the sort of thing that might be worth mentioning. Our hero, everyone.

[Divayth Fyr]

Spoiler

Show

Well, I guess it's just convenient for her that there was a raft out there. In the middle of the ocean. A raft. In the middle of the ocean. Yes, the repetition is necessary to highlight just how stupid that is.

I suppose she probably should've let them know about the sea monster. She picked out right away that it wasn't actually a ship. Seems like the sort of thing that might be worth mentioning. Our hero, everyone.

Spoiler

Show

Didn't she start swimming away (leaving them to their fate) only to go on how Halbrandt abandoned the others to die later?

[KorvinStarmast]

I might, however, query whether it's any worse than the West Country stereotypes depicted in the Hobbits in the movies. (I am a Westcountryman - and no, I wasn't offended).

If someone took offense to how hobbits were depicted in the Shire ...

But perhaps that's the point - that while GG is a great warrior, his principal role is as a diplomat and statesman who's able to reunify (to some degree) the elves after the disasters of the First Age, and a descendant of Finarfin is better-suited for dealing with the Sindar than a Fingolfin.

Hmm, maybe.

Spoiler

Show

On the subject of not clever, did I miss something, or was Galadriel's plan after deciding she didn't want to go to the undying lands to just jump into the ocean and swim back?

Yes, not clever. The bad writing is covered nicely by Critical Drinker in his youtube stream.

Spoiler

Show

And another example of exposition done like that would be the Feanor's hammer bit.

He used a hammer to make jewels? I wonder if it returns to its wielder when thrown.

Spoiler

Show

Galadriel is a strong, independent character, planning and logic are for weaklings

*snigger* Critical Drinker has quite a few zingers for Galadriel.

Spoiler

Show

Well, I guess it's just convenient for her that there was a raft out there. In the middle of the ocean. A raft. In the middle of the ocean. Yes, the repetition is necessary to highlight just how stupid that is.

I suppose she probably should've let them know about the sea monster. She picked out right away that it wasn't actually a ship. Seems like the sort of thing that might be worth mentioning. Our hero, everyone.

Yeah, although I got the impression that

Spoiler: alleged reason for it being there

Show

the people floating on the raft were shipwrecked due to corsairs or pirates or something.

[Divayth Fyr]

He used a hammer to make jewels? I wonder if it returns to its wielder when thrown.

My cynical side makes me think that the reason for the hammer is that Celebrimbor from Shadow of Mordor/War had one, and since the games were quite popular...

Also, Elrond giving the exposition speech about Feanor and his Silmarils to Celebrimbor is just... ugh.

Yeah, although I got the impression that

Spoiler: alleged reason for it being there

Show

the people floating on the raft were shipwrecked due to corsairs or pirates or something.

Spoiler

Show

I think the idea was that the sea serpent destroyed their ship, somehow left them alive and came back to finish the job.

[factotum]

Also, Elrond giving the exposition speech about Feanor and his Silmarils to Celebrimbor is just... ugh.

Well, obviously *somebody* had to supply that bit of exposition just in case there are people watching who haven't read LOTR and the Silmarillion.

[Aedilred]

While it could doubtless have been improved, I didn't think the Elrond/Celebrimbor scene was too painfully expositionary all things considered. The trope is, of course:
"As you know, blah blah blah"
"Yes, and as you also know, blah blah blah"
"Good, then we are all up to date with what we both already knew and knew that each other knew."

This is bad writing and not how anyone talks. But in real conversations, people do nevertheless tell each other things they already know all the time, to reminisce about common experiences, to remind them of things they know but might presently be overlooking, to provide context for a point they're trying to make, or just to establish common ground to build on.

And this is kind of how I read this scene. Neither of these characters knows each other and Elrond may be intimidated by Celebrimbor; Celebrimbor is presumably trying to put him at his ease. So they talk about something they both know about and have an interest in: Fëanor's work. The story of the Silmarils moving Morgoth is told not simply to inform Elrond what happened - as he has doubtless heard the story - but to contextualise Celebrimbor's own concerns about the perceived triviality of his work compared to his grandfather's, and that's the real point that he's trying to convey: not "weren't the Silmarils great?" but "I want to produce something worthy of Fëanor".

And as factotum rightly says, you can't rely on the audience's all having read the books.

Also, jewellers in real life do use hammers, although usually a bit smaller than the one in the show.

[warty goblin]

Also, jewellers in real life do use hammers, although usually a bit smaller than the one in the show.

This is absolutely true. Hammers are my primary tool for most of my jewelry projects. Dishing metal into a curve requires ball peen hammers, raising flutes uses very odd cross peen hammers, repousse and chasing uses a chasing hammer and punches/chisels, engraving uses an even smaller chasing hammer and different chisels, planishing uses different specialized hammers (though some can also be used for dishing and raising) and I not infrequently need to forge a new repousse punch or planishing/forming stake, which uses yet more hammers.

All of these are substantially lighter than the huge hammer they showed on the show*; my engraving hammer is comically tiny. And a scene with just an entire wall covered in weird and miniscule hammers would be silly. But I just shape metal and set entirely natural gems, I don't create mystical stones that capture pure light. That could well require a bit more oomph.

*Hammers are always smaller in reality than in fantasy.

[Aedilred]

But I just shape metal and set entirely natural gems, I don't create mystical stones that capture pure light.

Clearly you need to up your game.

[TheSummoner]

Yeah, although I got the impression that

Spoiler: alleged reason for it being there

Show

the people floating on the raft were shipwrecked due to corsairs or pirates or something.

Spoiler

Show

I think the idea was that the sea serpent destroyed their ship, somehow left them alive and came back to finish the job.

Spoiler

Show

The reason they were there is because even the writers realized just how stupid it would be for Galadriel to swim all the way across the ocean despite her just jumping in with the intent to do exactly that. The scene could've played out the exact same way had they been in a small boat. It would've still begged the question why they were out there, but it would've been far less idiotic than them being on a raft in the middle of the ocean.

Whether it had been corsairs or the sea serpent, in either case, they would've been attacked while already at sea. The idea that they built the raft while already in the middle of the ocean is even more nonsensical than if they had somehow made it that far from shore on the thing.

Well, obviously *somebody* had to supply that bit of exposition just in case there are people watching who haven't read LOTR and the Silmarillion.

"Hello, Bilbo, uncle of Frodo and owner of Sauron's One Ring that turns you invisible if you wear it. It's me, Gandalf the wizard. Do you remember that time when we went on a grand adventure with Thorin Oakenshield and his band of dwarves to reclaim the Lonely Mountain from the evil dragon Smaug and ended up fighting the Battle of Five Armies where Dwarves, Elves, Men, and Eagles all battled with Goblins?"

Sometimes you need to let the audience know background information that they may not be familiar with, but there are good ways to do it that feel natural and bad ways to do it that feel incredibly clunky and unnatural. Having characters explain things to other characters who either explicitly or implicitly should already know is the latter and it's just really bad, amateurish writing.

[Divayth Fyr]

Spoiler

Show

The reason they were there is because even the writers realized just how stupid it would be for Galadriel to swim all the way across the ocean despite her just jumping in with the intent to do exactly that. The scene could've played out the exact same way had they been in a small boat. It would've still begged the question why they were out there, but it would've been far less idiotic than them being on a raft in the middle of the ocean.

Whether it had been corsairs or the sea serpent, in either case, they would've been attacked while already at sea. The idea that they built the raft while already in the middle of the ocean is even more nonsensical than if they had somehow made it that far from shore on the thing.

Spoiler

Show

I mean, we could skip all those extra layers of nonsense (since her stunt was already dumb) and just skip to Galadriel being picked up by the Numenorean ship she ends up on anyway. Of course this would require some changes in regards to her "relationship" with Halbrandt, but I see no issue there.

Sometimes you need to let the audience know background information that they may not be familiar with, but there are good ways to do it that feel natural and bad ways to do it that feel incredibly clunky and unnatural. Having characters explain things to other characters who either explicitly or implicitly should already know is the latter and it's just really bad, amateurish writing.

Even keeping most of the dialogue as-is but making it go
Elrond: By Elbereth! Is that...
Celebrimbor: Yes, Feanor's hammer. [insert rest of the spiel here]
seems an improvement (even if marginal one)

And tbh, I'm not sure the show really needs this particular bit of exposition. At least at this point.

[Aedilred]

I am reminded of the scene in The Fellowship of the Ring when Boromir sees Narsil in the house of Elrond.

"The shards of Narsil! The blade that cut the Ring from the hand of Sauron!" he says, picking it up and examining it.

Compare Elrond in this scene.

"The hammer of Feanor! The tool that wrought the Silmarils, the jewels that contained the very light of Valinor!" he says, picking it up and examining it.

Of course, Boromir is talking mostly to himself, then becomes uncomfortable with Aragorn's presence and drops it, while Elrond uses it to start a conversation. But the initial observation basically follows the same pattern in both instances, and in Fellowship this is (unlike here) something that's already been addressed in the intro for the benefit of the audience.

[diplomancer]

Spoiler

Show

I mean, we could skip all those extra layers of nonsense (since her stunt was already dumb) and just skip to Galadriel being picked up by the Numenorean ship she ends up on anyway. Of course this would require some changes in regards to her "relationship" with Halbrandt, but I see no issue there.

Spoiler

Show

It'd be as simple as having Galadriel see the raft beforejumping ship. Short scene where she tries to talk the Elves into helping the castaways, Elves refusing, Galadriel jumps ship to go and help them. Now, instead of being suicidally stupid,
Galadriel is the great big hero who gives up Valinor to help some randos

I am reminded of the scene in The Fellowship of the Ring when Boromir sees Narsil in the house of Elrond.

"The shards of Narsil! The blade that cut the Ring from the hand of Sauron!" he says, picking it up and examining it.

Compare Elrond in this scene.

"The hammer of Feanor! The tool that wrought the Silmarils, the jewels that contained the very light of Valinor!" he says, picking it up and examining it.

Of course, Boromir is talking mostly to himself, then becomes uncomfortable with Aragorn's presence and drops it, while Elrond uses it to start a conversation. But the initial observation basically follows the same pattern in both instances, and in Fellowship this is (unlike here) something that's already been addressed in the intro for the benefit of the audience.

Yeah, the scene felt copied, almost word for word. Maybe it counts as fan-service, but it just felt very lazy to me.

[Wintermoot]

Yeah, the scene felt copied, almost word for word. Maybe it counts as fan-service, but it just felt very lazy to me.

*Angry because character one expositions information to character two to provide information to audience, calls it inept writing*

*gets pointed out that the exact same writing was used in other, cherished, beloved product of the story*

*Angry because new scene is now lazy copy of previous beloved, cherished scene*

Yeah, guys, this seems a totally legitimate line of complaint.

[TheSummoner]

Spoiler

Show

It'd be as simple as having Galadriel see the raft beforejumping ship. Short scene where she tries to talk the Elves into helping the castaways, Elves refusing, Galadriel jumps ship to go and help them. Now, instead of being suicidally stupid,
Galadriel is the great big hero who gives up Valinor to help some randos

Spoiler

Show

Well, then she'd also have to lift a finger to try to save them from the sea monster instead of just abandoning them to die. It'd be one thing if she had tried and failed, but she didn't even bother to warn them.

*Angry because character one expositions information to character two to provide information to audience, calls it inept writing*

*gets pointed out that the exact same writing was used in other, cherished, beloved product of the story*

*Angry because new scene is now lazy copy of previous beloved, cherished scene*

Yeah, guys, this seems a totally legitimate line of complaint.

Maybe if diplomancer was the one saying it was bad that characters are explaining things they already know for the benefit of the audience you could call it hypocritical, but that was his first post in the entire thread. You're conflating him saying it's lazy because it's similar to other people saying it's clunky and feels unnatural.

I'd need to re-watch Fellowship to make a direct comparison, but even if the dialogue in that scene is also bad, that doesn't somehow make the dialogue in the show good.

[diplomancer]

*Angry because character one expositions information to character two to provide information to audience, calls it inept writing*

*gets pointed out that the exact same writing was used in other, cherished, beloved product of the story*

*Angry because new scene is now lazy copy of previous beloved, cherished scene*

Yeah, guys, this seems a totally legitimate line of complaint.

Yeah, who could imagine two different people could dislike a scene for two different reasons. For myself, I was so distracted by the obvious parallelism that the clunkyness of the scene passed me by.

That said, yes, it works in the movie a lot better, for several reasons:
1- as already noted, Boromir is talking to himself. He's awed by seeing such an artifact. It would be very odd if he was saying that to Elrond.
2- it shows us something about Boromir's character. He knows and loves the old legends. He dreams of himself holding the sword and cutting off the Ring. As this is the first time we see him, it's relevant. Just to say that I don't criticise the movie, I deeply dislike the end of the scene, where Boromir acts like a boor. Boromir was not a boor.
3- Narsil/Andúril is a BIG plot point, both in the books and in the movie. As far as I can remember, "Feanor's hammer" is no such thing in any of Tolkien's writing; it's Feanor's hands that get all the credit (though the fact that they introduced it like this, with the obvious film parallelism, might indicate that they do intend to make it a big plot point. We will have to wait and see).

[Aedilred]

Spoiler

Show

It'd be as simple as having Galadriel see the raft beforejumping ship. Short scene where she tries to talk the Elves into helping the castaways, Elves refusing, Galadriel jumps ship to go and help them. Now, instead of being suicidally stupid,
Galadriel is the great big hero who gives up Valinor to help some randos

Spoiler

Show

But that also completely changes the point of the scene. Galadriel gave up Valinor for its own sake, because she felt she didn't belong, or because she had unfinished business in Middle-Earth. Now, having her jump off a boat in the middle of the ocean is not the best way to portray that, but it does speak to the certainty of her decision that she would rather risk death on the swim back to Middle-Earth than accept the certainty of paradise.
Having her jump off the boat to go and help some humans on a raft is a totally different motivation and leaves open the very strong possibility that she would have just carried on into Valinor had it not been for the humans, and also introduces a character thread that she is just that nobly self-sacrificing, which... it's difficult to speak with any certainty about the Galadriel they're portraying here becaus she's so different from the book version, but it doesn't really seem to fit with either version of Galadriel that we know so far.
It also has the side-effect of making those other elves look like jerks.

So, whatever one's feelings about the scene, and yeah, I did think the way it was done was silly, I don't think that proposed solution actually solves anything and just makes a mess of what's already there.

*Angry because character one expositions information to character two to provide information to audience, calls it inept writing*

*gets pointed out that the exact same writing was used in other, cherished, beloved product of the story*

*Angry because new scene is now lazy copy of previous beloved, cherished scene*

Yeah, guys, this seems a totally legitimate line of complaint.

[Vinyadan]

Watched the second episode. I think my broad conclusion is this feels like a very good TV show adaptation of a Tolkien ripoff novel from like 1983, where for some reason nobody noticed some of the characters have names from Lord of the Rings. This is not even of itself a ding, I love me some oldschool Tolkien knockoffs, and the writers capture that feel perfectly, intentionally or not. But it isn't super Tolkienesque to me.

Sword of Shannara Rising although it's from '77.

[Dienekes]

Out of curiosity, am I the only one who would have just been unbothered off Galadriel had just swam back to shore?

She’s an elf and a fantasy heroine. We already saw Legolas just casually stroll across snow and run for weeks without stopping. The politician Elrond is breaking massive boulders in one strike. Humans have swam across the channel, or from Italy to Malta. I expect more from a Tolkien elf.

If she just reached the shore in a later episode exhausted I wouldn’t have questioned it.

The weakness of the scene for me, was chastising the human for abandoning his people right after she had done so.

[Mechalich]

Out of curiosity, am I the only one who would have just been unbothered off Galadriel had just swam back to shore?

It would be a pretty consequential canon violation. Specifically, the whole reason for the First Kinslaying is that the Noldor couldn't get from Valinor to Middle Earth without stealing ships from the Teleri. The alternative is the brutal crossing of the Helcaraxe - basically the arctic ice cap - which is how Galadriel got to Middle Earth the first time. Of course, that's the other problem with her jumping off the boat. There's absolutely no reason that she couldn't enter Valinor and then leave by marching across the Helcaraxe again. The Valar have no power to bar anyone from leaving Valinor and have canonically let suitably heroic souls - Glorfindel - go back to fight evil again.

[TheSummoner]

"Your criticisms are illegitimate because someone else has different criticisms" is a new one for me.

Out of curiosity, am I the only one who would have just been unbothered off Galadriel had just swam back to shore?

I can accept that as an elf, she has greater stamina than a human and I can accept that as the protagonist, she's all around better than an otherwise identical character who isn't. Swimming across an entire ocean though? No, that's too much and shatters the verisimilitude. Even the fact that that was her apparent plan is enough to raise eyebrows.

Serious question, if you'd be ok with that, where's your line. Would it be ok if Galadriel had just walked across the surface back to shore? What if she flew?

It would be a pretty consequential canon violation.

Wouldn't be the first time. Amazon has a story they want to tell. Lord of the Rings is a known name to get attention and references to canon are member berries.

[Eldan]

Eh, if Beowulf can swim for a week...

[Clertar]

Just here to say that the series is so far exceeding expectations with merit. It's as good as I hoped it would be within the realm of possibility.

Also, has nobody mentioned how awesome the tunnel orc was? Then here it goes: tunnel orc was awesome.

[Dragonus45]

It would be a pretty consequential canon violation. Specifically, the whole reason for the First Kinslaying is that the Noldor couldn't get from Valinor to Middle Earth without stealing ships from the Teleri. The alternative is the brutal crossing of the Helcaraxe - basically the arctic ice cap - which is how Galadriel got to Middle Earth the first time. Of course, that's the other problem with her jumping off the boat. There's absolutely no reason that she couldn't enter Valinor and then leave by marching across the Helcaraxe again. The Valar have no power to bar anyone from leaving Valinor and have canonically let suitably heroic souls - Glorfindel - go back to fight evil again.

I'm not sure that the people writing this have any idea what any of those words even mean, and keeping that in mind I would rather she just swam back and we got to skip the entire subplot.

[Dienekes]

I can accept that as an elf, she has greater stamina than a human and I can accept that as the protagonist, she's all around better than an otherwise identical character who isn't. Swimming across an entire ocean though? No, that's too much and shatters the verisimilitude. Even the fact that that was her apparent plan is enough to raise eyebrows.

Serious question, if you'd be ok with that, where's your line. Would it be ok if Galadriel had just walked across the surface back to shore? What if she flew?

Well for me. The story proper doesn’t even say how far from the shore she is. She has reached the point where going the globe way is not possible and so now must take the straight way. Cue celestial imagery and magic and her refusing the call of paradise.

It could be a weeks travel, could be a whole continent. I dunno. As long as she wasn’t at the literal shores of Valinor I’d be willing to give it a pass.

Now as to where my line is. I suppose it has to do with what’s established. We know elves are superhuman, that’s firmly established. We know they’re faster stronger and have more endurance than a common human. So seeing them be faster, stronger, and have more endurance than any current living human seems ok to me.

Flying isn’t established. Galadriel solving a problem through flight would not pass for me.

Now interestingly, walking on water kinda is established with Legolas strolling on snow, showing that eves are also supernaturally light; or that the natural elements just react differently to elves.

That said, walking on water has a clear religious symbolism that I think would be against Tolkien’s values far more than anything they’ve shown changed thus far. And that would also say is a break for me.

But honestly, really, I think of things more as being an adaptation, and the values of making a dynamic and interesting story where characters grow and change at the pace of a tv show rather than at Tolkien’s pace of millennia is going to need some changes. Along with making things dramatic and visually engaging. Between seeing Galadriel literally turn away from paradise to just not sailing on a ship. I can see the appeal of choosing showing the imagery of paradise.

That said, there are changes made that I don’t have a narrative, character, pacing, or visual understanding why they were changed. Those are the ones that confuse me. Durin son of Durin for example. I don’t get why that would be changed.

Unless they’re going all the way to the last alliance against Sauron at which point you’ll need Durin IV, so having him established early could be useful. But I did not think they’re trying to go that far in scope.

Eh, if Beowulf can swim for a week...

Kinda my point, yeah.

[factotum]

She has reached the point where going the globe way is not possible and so now must take the straight way. Cue celestial imagery and magic and her refusing the call of paradise.

Just to note here: this is the Second Age, right? So Numenor has not yet suffered its downfall and Valinor has not been removed from the circles of the world--you can just sail there in a regular ship no problem. That's what the Numenoreans did that caused their downfall in the first place!

[Dienekes]

Just to note here: this is the Second Age, right? So Numenor has not yet suffered its downfall and Valinor has not been removed from the circles of the world--you can just sail there in a regular ship no problem. That's what the Numenoreans did that caused their downfall in the first place!

Oh shoot, you right.

So yeah, then even the celestial imagery and ritual doesn’t make sense. That’s a totally fair criticism.

[TheSummoner]

As of episode 3, it's also established, per Galadriel herself that being out to sea like that was certain death. Yet she jumped in.

[pendell]

Just to note here: this is the Second Age, right? So Numenor has not yet suffered its downfall and Valinor has not been removed from the circles of the world--you can just sail there in a regular ship no problem. That's what the Numenoreans did that caused their downfall in the first place!

I'm not sure that's true. During the First Age the Valar set the Enchanted Isles as navigation hazards between Middle-Earth and Valinor ; quite aside from more conventional hazards like rocks and shoals which were deliberately made as nasty as possible, setting foot on the enchanted isles meant a permanent sleep until the end of the world.

I don't recall whether those hazards were removed in the second age. Regular sailing ships traveled from Aman to Middle-Earth, and presumably back the other way, but I should think navigating in those conditions would still require a skilled mariner. I'd be reluctant to swim in that even if I had the stamina to do so; it's not an olympic swimming pool.

Are .. are they saying Galadriel swam all the way from Valinor back to Middle-Earth? Really?

Respectfully,

Brian P.