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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Most of our societies - for better or worse - don't really pretend "nobody is left alone" is central to their identity, unlike the Harfoots.


    True. But we're shown they abandon anyone unable to keep up at the moment. A hurt ankle might prevent you from pulling your cart fast enough to keep up with the caravan, but unless you literally can't risk a single moment of delay, get attacked or don't have the means to feed you population, that isn't necessary. Even moreso when we see plenty of people who could help, but won't. Guess this could become another death to laugh at next year...
    How do we know that whoever doesn't keep up "at the moment" dies? They might just as well get to the camp place for the night as much as the others, just a few hours later. I don't remember if we heard of any deaths read from the book in their ceremony-looking thing caused from "being left alone", or were those caused from snowslides and other accidents?
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr View Post
    Most of our societies - for better or worse - don't really pretend "nobody is left alone" is central to their identity, unlike the Harfoots.
    It might just be that the Harfoot society is not depicted as an ideal. Who knows, maybe we'll end up meeting a Harfoot, perhaps a young one, and perhaps even a female one, who will challenge the set-in-stone traditions.
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    This is attested in dozens of real-world societies that live in conditions similar to the Harfoots: for example, the Inuit would abandon their elderly to die in the ice, and the Pirahã as described by Daniel Everett would do the same with babies born with some physical disadvantage. What we are shown is not that the Harfoots are "dark" or "mean" as an arbitrary cultural trait, but rather that their conditions are harsh, and that they survive by doing what is necessary to prevent their precarious living conditions from degrading beyond survival.
    That very well may have been the writers' intention, but if so, they've utterly failed at conveying that. The hobbits aren't shown as living in precarious conditions. The one example we have on screen is a hobbit with an injured foot. He's not so injured that he's beyond recovery. He's not so old and feeble that if not for the injury he'd be unable to make the journey. There is no external threat that pick off anyone too slow to keep pace with the group . Add to this that they were laughing about the way one of them had died in the past and that instead of punishing Nori for her actions, they deliberately put him at the back of the pack knowing that with his injury it would make it incredibly likely he couldn't keep pace and it doesn't come off as a precarious situation where the group is putting its survival as a collective above that of any individual, but rather cheap drama for the sake of drama (and possibly an easy means to separate Nori's circle from the main group for future plot).

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Presumably a large part of the arc of this story will be their encounter with the elves and subsequent journey from superstitious, savage people to the beautiful Shire in the books. At the least, I would expect them to start on this journey.
    That you believe this is something that will actually be developed shows that you have far more faith in the showrunners than I.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Originally Posted by pendell
    Presumably a large part of the arc of this story will be their encounter with the elves and subsequent journey from superstitious, savage people to the beautiful Shire in the books.
    Was there ever any hint of this in the books? I can’t say I recall anything about the elves having been the spark that kindled the hobbits’ placid and comfortable fires. The elves woke the trees so they could talk with them, but they didn’t create the ents, and offhand I can’t think of any case where the elves “uplifted” an entire people.

    Originally Posted by pendell
    From this we learn…
    Your first point seems like quite a stretch, and in fact several of them do. If the heathen kings were under the dominion of the Dark Power when they killed themselves and their families, it’s hardly fair to describe this behavior as part of their “customs,” since presumably the Dark Power was driving them to do things they wouldn’t ordinarily consider.

    I won’t go through the rest, but I wouldn’t expect this series to give a full survey of hobbit development ending with smoke rings. At best they might show us the Harfoots pointed in that direction, perhaps hearing the name "Baranduin" as they wander along its banks. But even given what I’m reading from many sources about certain elements, I’d still be very surprised if we see a single encounter with elf-kind having such a transformative effect. Sam was beside himself with delight at his first sighting of elves, but he was still the same person the next day.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    More broadly, I'm not sure where the notion that the Harfoot's will be 'civilized' by an exterior force is coming from? My assumption is that they're going to 'earn' the Shire through some form of service/assistance, whether to our star-fallen giant, or some other power and that when they're able to settle safely in a secure location, then the need to leave people behind will fall away and with it the tradition.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    But even given what I’m reading from many sources about certain elements, I’d still be very surprised if we see a single encounter with elf-kind having such a transformative effect. Sam was beside himself with delight at his first sighting of elves, but he was still the same person the next day.
    I'm not sure what would be worse - having a single encounter inspiring a transformative effect, or a full on meeting of cultures with a process of "civilisation" (scare quotes mine). However, I would be saddened but not surprised to see either in basically any TV show, even a massive budget/high-profile one like this, even if it doesn't fit with previous characterisation. I mean, that's how I felt on reading that it was an Australian dialect coach who made the decision to give the Harfoots Irish-based accents - I'm Australian, some of us would totally do that without thinking. While I don't know whether the accents came before or after the problematic story tropes, obviously nobody put the unfortunate implications together in time to prevent it being filmed that way. I know society can do better, so seeing individual productions continuing to do worse is disappointing, but it's not unexpected. I can continue to hope for better, though.
    I'm pretty much the opposite of concise. If I fail to get to the point, please ask me and I'm happy to (attempt to) clarify.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    More broadly, I'm not sure where the notion that the Harfoot's will be 'civilized' by an exterior force is coming from? My assumption is that they're going to 'earn' the Shire through some form of service/assistance, whether to our star-fallen giant, or some other power and that when they're able to settle safely in a secure location, then the need to leave people behind will fall away and with it the tradition.
    Hobbits don't migrate to the Shire until the middle of the Third Age, thousands of years after this series, and for good reason, since the area is occupied for quite some time by the heirs of Elendil ruling the kingdom of Arnor until the efforts of the Nazgul bring it down. Aragorn was of the lineage of the kings of Arnor, and had claim to Gondor because Arnor had seniority as a kingdom over Gondor, as the latter was founded by Elendil's sons.

    It is possible that the Harfoots could do something to earn title to land during this series though. Prior to migrating west, Tolkien's works hint that they lived in the river valley of the Anduin as this is where Smeagol/Gollum lived in his youth. This region, which corresponds to the territory the Fellowship travels through on the Anduin after leaving Lorien, lies to the north of Gondor and is hypothetically sufficiently within the writ of Isildur that he could award it to them following the victory of the Last Alliance.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Was there ever any hint of this in the books?
    I don't recall there being any hint of the origins of Hobbits in any of Tolkien's works, TBH, because they were essentially created by him to entertain his children and didn't really fit in with the wider legendarium. As far as the story is concerned they might as well have sprung full-formed from the earth shortly before Smeagol and Deagol had their little ring-related argument.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    I don't recall there being any hint of the origins of Hobbits in any of Tolkien's works, TBH, because they were essentially created by him to entertain his children and didn't really fit in with the wider legendarium. As far as the story is concerned they might as well have sprung full-formed from the earth shortly before Smeagol and Deagol had their little ring-related argument.


    From the "Concerninh Hobbits prologue in the Lord of the Rings:

    Hobbits are an unobtrusive but very ancient people, more numerous formerly than they are today; for they love peace and quiet and good tilled earth: a well-ordered and well-farmed countryside was their favourite haunt. They do not and did not understand or like machines more complicated than a forge-bellows, a water-mill, or a hand-loom, though they were skilful with tools. Even in ancient days they were, as a rule, shy of 'the Big Folk', as they call us, and now they avoid us with dismay and are becoming hard to find. They are quick of hearing and sharp-eyed, and though they are inclined to be fat and do not hurry unnecessarily, they are nonetheless nimble and deft in their movements.

    [...]

    The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only the Elves still preserve any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all. Yet it is clear that Hobbits had, in fact, lived quietly in Middle-earth for many long years before other folk became even aware of them. And the world being after all full of strange creatures beyond count, these little people seemed of very little importance.

    [...]

    Of their original home the Hobbits in Bilbo's time preserved no knowledge. A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Their own records began only after the settlement of the Shire, and their most ancient legends hardly looked further back than their Wandering Days. It is clear, nonetheless, from these legends, and from the evidence of their peculiar words and customs, that like many other folk Hobbits had in the distant past moved westward. Their earliest tales seem to glimpse a time when they dwelt in the upper vales of Anduin, between the eaves of Greenwood
    the Great and the Misty Mountains. Why they later undertook the hard and perilous crossing of the mountains into Eriador is no longer certain. Their own accounts speak of the multiplying of Men in the land, and of a shadow that fell on the forest, so that it became darkened and its new name was Mirkwood.

    Before the crossing of the mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides. The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller, and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; their hands and feet were neat and nimble; and they preferred highlands and hillsides. The Stoors were broader, heavier in build; their feet and hands were larger, and they preferred flat lands
    and riversides. The Fallohides were fairer of skin and also of hair, and they were taller and slimmer than the others; they were lovers of trees and of woodlands.

    The Harfoots had much to do with Dwarves in ancient times, and long lived in the foothills of the mountains. They moved westward early, and roamed over Eriador as far as Weathertop while the others were still in the Wilderland. They were the most normal and representative variety of Hobbit, and far the most numerous. They were the most inclined to settle in one place, and longest preserved their ancestral habit of living in tunnels and holes.

    The Stoors lingered long by the banks of the Great River Anduin, and were less shy of Men. They came west after the Harfoots and followed the course of the Loudwater southwards; and there many of them long dwelt between Tharbad and the borders of Dunland before they moved north again.

    The Fallohides, the least numerous, were a northerly branch. They were more friendly with Elves than the other Hobbits were, and had more skill in language and song than in handicrafts; and of old they preferred hunting to tilling. They crossed the mountains north of Rivendell and came down the River Hoarwell. In Eriador they soon mingled with the other kinds that had preceded them, but being somewhat bolder and more adventurous, they were often found as leaders or chieftains among clans of Harfoots or Stoors. Even in Bilbo's time the strong Fallohidish strain could still be noted among the greater families, such as the Tooks and the Masters of Buckland.

    In the westlands of Eriador, between the Misty Mountains and the Mountains of Lune, the Hobbits found both Men and Elves. Indeed, a remnant still dwelt there of the D®nedain, the kings of Men that came over the Sea
    out of Westernesse; but they were dwindling fast and the lands of their North Kingdom were falling far and wide into waste. There was room and to spare for incomers, and ere long the Hobbits began to settle in ordered communities. Most of their earlier settlements had long disappeared and been forgotten in Bilbo's time; but one of the first to become important still endured, though reduced in size; this was at Bree and in the Chetwood that lay round about, some forty miles east of the Shire.

    It was in these early days, doubtless, that the Hobbits learned their letters and began to write after the manner of the D®nedain, who had in their turn long before learned the art from the Elves. And in those days also they forgot whatever languages they had used before, and spoke ever after the Common Speech, the Westron as it was named, that was current through all the lands of the kings from Arnor to Gondor, and about all the coasts of the Sea from Belfalas to Lune. Yet they kept a few words of their own, as well as their own names of months and days, and a great store of personal names out of the past.
    Last edited by Clertar; 2022-09-12 at 02:05 AM.
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    How do we know that whoever doesn't keep up "at the moment" dies? They might just as well get to the camp place for the night as much as the others, just a few hours later. I don't remember if we heard of any deaths read from the book in their ceremony-looking thing caused from "being left alone", or were those caused from snowslides and other accidents?
    The reaction of Nori's father when he heard their cart will be in the end of the caravan certainly made it feel like it leads to something worse than "I'll be a bit late to the camp". And we clearly see they do not help eachother during the travel - not only nobody helps in pulling Nori's cart, but Poppy - who lost her entire family - has to pull one all by herself. Truly, "nobody walks alone"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    Of their original home the Hobbits in Bilbo's time preserved no knowledge. A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men. Their own records began only after the settlement of the Shire, and their most ancient legends hardly looked further back than their Wandering Days.

    It was in these early days, doubtless, that the Hobbits learned their letters and began to write after the manner of the D®nedain, who had in their turn long before learned the art from the Elves.
    I wonder how you could wrestle a great tome of lore, history and prophecies into this. Alongside litteracy even among the youngest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I don't understand your point. Why does it matter what I said?

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    Was there ever any hint of this in the books? I can’t say I recall anything about the elves having been the spark that kindled the hobbits’ placid and comfortable fires. The elves woke the trees so they could talk with them, but they didn’t create the ents, and offhand I can’t think of any case where the elves “uplifted” an entire people.



    Your first point seems like quite a stretch, and in fact several of them do. If the heathen kings were under the dominion of the Dark Power when they killed themselves and their families, it’s hardly fair to describe this behavior as part of their “customs,” since presumably the Dark Power was driving them to do things they wouldn’t ordinarily consider.

    I won’t go through the rest, but I wouldn’t expect this series to give a full survey of hobbit development ending with smoke rings. At best they might show us the Harfoots pointed in that direction, perhaps hearing the name "Baranduin" as they wander along its banks. But even given what I’m reading from many sources about certain elements, I’d still be very surprised if we see a single encounter with elf-kind having such a transformative effect. Sam was beside himself with delight at his first sighting of elves, but he was still the same person the next day.

    If the ancient humans were under the dominion of the Dark Power, then so are the Harfoots and for the same reason: because they're living in Middle-Earth which is for the most part abandoned by the Valar. Those in Middle-Earth, especially those outside Beleriand, have only one Valar they have ever known and that is Morgoth.

    The lot of humans in Middle-Earth in the second age is unhappy. Except for the small number of Edain who escaped over the mountains in Beleriand, the vast majority of humans come under the dominion of Morgoth, and they march under his banner in the wars. After the war Morgoth is gone, but his agents and fugitives come upon the bands of primitive humans and, by the shadow of fear, become kings of the human world. The result is that pretty much all of the human race in the Third Age outside the little circle of firelight known are Arnor and Gondor are under the dominion of Sauron, whom they worship as god.

    That's the world that the Harfoots are growing up into; what would you expect them to be like? Their customs and actions stem from living in the world polluted and corrupted by Morgoth, and barring some outside force they're going to turn out exactly like the other human peoples, the Haradrim and Easterlings, ruled by darkness.

    The outside agents are the Elves, who previously uplifted the Edain and made the original wanderers into Beleriand what they were. Also the Valar themselves, who uplifted the elves, and the Numenoreans. We're getting ahead of ourselves in our reading but Akallabeth tells us that when the Numenoreans returned to Middle-Earth they first did so as teachers, instructing the humans of middle earth and helping them to live better lives than they previously had under the Shadow. So 'uplift' of a people from the darkness of Melkor or Sauron to the light of the powers is a consistent theme throughout Tolkien's history of Middle-Earth.

    And make no mistake there is a great deal of cultural shift from the Harfoots to the Shire. The act of abandoning a comrade in need is something we've seen in Middle-Earth -- but only by orcs. In Return of the King, Ufthak is part of the garrison of Cirith Ungol who stumbles into Shelob's web. The orcs recount this in the hearing of Sam: "How we laughed! But we didn't touch him; no good interfering with her."

    Does that sound more like the Harfoots, or the Shire?

    By contrast, the people of the west repeatedly dare all odds to rescue their own from the worst perils, even when all hope would seem lost. Fingon rescuing Maedhros from Angband. Luthien rescuing Beren from the isle of werewolves. All of these actions are, from a human perspective, foolhardy endeavors likely to result in the death of all involved, but they persevere anyway.

    Flash forward to Sam in the mines of Moria who is unwilling to abandon Bill the Pony. That sounds very like something the elves would do and not at all like the Harfoots portrayed so far; the Harfoots sound as if they would happily abandon one of their own companions in these straits, far less a pack animal.

    The Harfoots as portrayed have more in common with orcs than elves, which is not surprising given they have lived all their lives and the lives of their ancestors in lands dominated by Shadow. Absent some outside force, they will turn out just like all the other humans of Middle-Earth; wicked, cruel, governed by the Shadow. Something has to change that trajectory, and contact with elves or Numenoreans seems far more likely an inflection point for that change than them pulling themselves up by their bootstraps from darkness to light. No one does that in Middle-Earth; the elves are elves because of Orome and the Valar, the humans of the west are what they are because of the Elves. Who will be there for the Harfoots?

    I concede it is possible they will earn the Shire as a gift in exchange for reward. However, this would itself require a degree of cultural interchange and exchange for that to happen:

    1) They need to have contact with the king of Arnor. For that matter, the show will gloss over it, but they need to speak the same language well enough for the concept of "reward" to have any meaning.
    2) They need to understand what the king of Arnor wants well enough to offer the king something of value in exchange for land.
    3) They need to be acceptable as neighbors to the Edain. That means they have to pass a "smell test" in terms of cultural values and mores. There's no way , to cross universes, any human king would give a sizeable area of unpeopled land to Gully Dwarves to settle; it would be far, far more trouble than it would be worth. The kings of Arnor would have to consider them acceptable neighbors.

    I don't think the Harfoots are anywhere near that level of culture or understanding as they are portrayed so far; therefore I assume part of the story's arc will show their evolution from their roots towards the hobbits of the later shire. If no such evolution occurs, they would solely serve as comic relief and their presence in the story would have no purpose; I refuse to believe without proof the showrunners are going to be so cruel to the ancestors of hobbits.

    I strongly doubt this would be a one-time event or a one-time encounter; in the real world, cultural interchange and exchange takes generations. Having this be due to a one-time event would be pure hollywood and, while that is possible, I'm going to give the showrunners a bit of the doubt and hope they will make the transition more gradual. If they don't , this isn't a story arc but a single plot point, resolved as in a TV show where problem and solution all occur in one hour. That's not beyond the reach of bad show-writing but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

    One final note: While there are hunter-gatherer peoples who abandon their old and weak that is not true of all such. Consider the Bedouins of the Rub'-al-Khali. We know quite a bit about their heritage and traditions thanks to their central location on top of the world's oil reserves, among other things, and they don't abandon their own. On the contrary, respect for age and hospitality for the stranger are critical components of that culture. Far from a weakness, this is probably one of the strengths that have allowed them to survive in an environment scarcely less hospitable than the moon.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Clertar View Post
    From the "Concerninh Hobbits prologue in the Lord of the Rings:
    Thank you for proving my point for me. Hobbits are the only sentient species I can think of where their entire origin story gets summed up as "Well, we don't really know because nobody kept any records of them back then". The furthest back it even mentions is the time when they lived between Greenwood the Great and the Misty Mountains, and we know that also has to be the time of Deagol and Smeagol because that's where they found the One Ring. So, as far as the wider legendarium is concerned, they might as well have popped into existence via magic sometime during the Second Age.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    So for this to happen, the Irish accented Harfoots have to uplifted to civilised practices, at which point they turn into English people? If that's really the route they go, that's... not an improvement.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Originally Posted by Divayth Fyr
    I wonder how you could wrestle a great tome of lore, history and prophecies into this.
    Thousands of years seems like plenty of time for one book to be lost and forgotten.

    Universal literacy for wandering proto-hobbits, however, does seem like more of a leap.

    Originally Posted by Clertar
    The Harfoots had much to do with Dwarves in ancient times….
    Has the show given us any hint of this so far?

    Originally Posted by pendell
    That's the world that the Harfoots are growing up into; what would you expect them to be like? Their customs and actions stem from living in the world polluted and corrupted by Morgoth….
    Again, this seems like a bit of a reach. From the clips I’ve seen, the Harfoots keep themselves thoroughly camouflaged whenever Big Folk are around, and I have the impression they have no interactions with them at all.

    Originally Posted by pendell
    While there are hunter-gatherer peoples who abandon their old and weak that is not true of all such.
    Indeed, and no one’s claiming that all hunter-gatherers exhibit these behaviors—only that enough do for the behaviors to be plausible here.

    That said, I’m getting the strong impression that this is portrayed very badly with the Harfoots, and apparently even played for laughs.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    So for this to happen, the Irish accented Harfoots have to uplifted to civilised practices, at which point they turn into English people? If that's really the route they go, that's... not an improvement.
    You're telling me. There's really no way you can tell this story in the 21st century without it being at least a little bit cringe. A story Kipling would write is a story that, shall we say, appeals to a very tiny minority of the viewing audience compared to the one-billion-plus people on the receiving end of 'civilization' and whose memories are not rosy.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    You're telling me. There's really no way you can tell this story in the 21st century without it being at least a little bit cringe.
    I almost thought I had a way to make it work - by making the change happen despite the influence of outsiders, say by using Elves or Men as a negative example. (Unfortunately the ones who are canonically made an example of, in story, are labelled "Black" in the text - which makes it even worse.) But no, if they are going to take the movies' depiction of the Shire as the endpoint, the choices they have made for the starting point define the change that is implied to happen over time, so there's no way of getting around that however you write it.
    I'm pretty much the opposite of concise. If I fail to get to the point, please ask me and I'm happy to (attempt to) clarify.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Except, again you guys are taking 'something changed between then and now' as 'they were 'uplifted/civilized' by some external force' and saying that's a problem...but we don't have any idea that that actually is going to happen. This story so far is literally, one Harfoot's rebellions against their traditions, entirely on her own (or with one friend to help her, maybe with her family aligned now). That says internal reform and changed circumstances are far more likely than 'elves came in and teach them how to be good citizens.'
    Last edited by ecarden; 2022-09-12 at 10:01 AM.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by ecarden View Post
    Except, again you guys are taking 'something changed between then and now' as 'they were 'uplifted/civilized' by some external force' and saying that's a problem...but we don't have any idea that that actually is going to happen. This story so far is literally, one Harfoot's rebellions against their traditions, entirely on her own (or with one friend to help her, maybe with her family aligned now). That says internal reform and changed circumstances are far more likely than 'elves came in and teach them how to be good citizens.'
    Given what a heartless {censored} Galadriel is being portrayed as, it's an even further reach (all actual Tolkien First Age lore considered).
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Originally Posted by ecarden
    Except, again you guys are taking 'something changed between then and now' as 'they were 'uplifted/civilized' by some external force' and saying that's a problem...but we don't have any idea that that actually is going to happen. This story so far is literally, one Harfoot's rebellions against their traditions, entirely on her own (or with one friend to help her, maybe with her family aligned now). That says internal reform and changed circumstances are far more likely than 'elves came in and teach them how to be good citizens.'
    +10 to this.

    It doesn’t seem like there’s been any indication that the show will be taking the uplift route, and for all the reasons mentioned it seems more likely that internal change is the way they’ll go.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Even the internal change angle is iffy, since it is still the (more) primitive Irish tribe evolving into civilized Englishmen. You don't need uplifting by an outside force to make that a can of worms... ;)
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Honestly I don't think they'll go near any of this. A Harfoot society in one era, a Hobbit society later in a completely different one, there's no need for this story to go into anything at all relating to the links between the two and they would be crazy to do so.

    If we take the Harfoots as precusrors to the shire hobbits in any way, uplifted or not, there's still some unfortunate implications in them losing their Irish accents as they become "civilised", but the way around that is to view this as a completely separate continuity from the movies, or that they're not precursors at all, this tribe never settled in the Shire but live somewhere else.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Honestly I don't think they'll go near any of this. A Harfoot society in one era, a Hobbit society later in a completely different one, there's no need for this story to go into anything at all relating to the links between the two and they would be crazy to do so.

    If we take the Harfoots as precusrors to the shire hobbits in any way, uplifted or not, there's still some unfortunate implications in them losing their Irish accents as they become "civilised", but the way around that is to view this as a completely separate continuity from the movies, or that they're not precursors at all, this tribe never settled in the Shire but live somewhere else.
    I'm not aware that Tolkien gave the hobbits any sort of prescribed accents, and if we're going by the movies the 5 major hobbits had 5 different accents between them all.
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Honestly I don't think they'll go near any of this. A Harfoot society in one era, a Hobbit society later in a completely different one, there's no need for this story to go into anything at all relating to the links between the two and they would be crazy to do so.

    If we take the Harfoots as precusrors to the shire hobbits in any way, uplifted or not, there's still some unfortunate implications in them losing their Irish accents as they become "civilised", but the way around that is to view this as a completely separate continuity from the movies, or that they're not precursors at all, this tribe never settled in the Shire but live somewhere else.
    We might see is a change in leadership over the seasons of the series, where Harfoot leadership is adopted by critical members of the community and usher a small but steady change that as audience members we can interprete as the beginnings of a sedentary, less superstitious Hobbit culture.
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    Honestly I don't think they'll go near any of this. A Harfoot society in one era, a Hobbit society later in a completely different one, there's no need for this story to go into anything at all relating to the links between the two and they would be crazy to do so.

    If we take the Harfoots as precusrors to the shire hobbits in any way, uplifted or not, there's still some unfortunate implications in them losing their Irish accents as they become "civilised", but the way around that is to view this as a completely separate continuity from the movies, or that they're not precursors at all, this tribe never settled in the Shire but live somewhere else.
    If the Harfoots aren't precursors to the Shire hobbits I'm not sure what the purpose is in having them on screen at all. Not to mention the appendices straight out told us the Harfoots are the descendants of Shire-hobbits along with Stoors and Fallohides. If they weren't going to have them be any relation to the hobbits of the blockbuster movies they could have just given them a made up name. No, they're definitely trying to draw a connection of some kind.

    Someone up above re-posted "concerning hobbits" for which I am grateful. Possibly one development is for a Fallohide to take over as chief of this Harfoot band, which as was explicitly spelled out is something that often happened among the early hobbits.

    Yes, I note that the Fallohides "tend to be fair" and friendly with elves while the other two subgroups are dark and tend to be ruled over by the Fallohides. Fantasy racism ... ugh.

    That does look like an extremely likely way for this to happen; some proto-fallohide comes into contact with the elves, then comes back to bring light to the Harfoots.

    Maybe this is why they included a dark-skinned elf in the story? Maybe the showrunners saw just how easily this could go into racism/colonialism and decided to add some diversity to take some of the bite out of it.

    Respectfully,

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    Last edited by pendell; 2022-09-12 at 02:32 PM.
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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Originally Posted by pendell
    If the Harfoots aren't precursors to the Shire hobbits I'm not sure what the purpose is in having them on screen at all.
    Presumably out of a general feeling that a show set in Middle-Earth needs hobbits in some form, or it just wouldn’t feel Middle-Earthy enough.

    I have no problem with proto-hobbits who have no direct connection with the Shire. But these proto-hobbits in particular…don’t sound great, and the few clips I’ve seen don’t alter that impression.

    Originally Posted by pendell
    Not to mention the appendices straight out told us the Harfoots are the descendants of Shire-hobbits along with Stoors and Fallohides.
    Did you mean to say descendants, or antecedents?

    Originally Posted by pendell
    …the Fallohides "tend to be fair" and friendly with elves while the other two subgroups are dark and tend to be ruled over by the Fallohides.
    No. Only the Harfoots are described as browner; the Stoors are described only as broader and heavier. And they are not “ruled over” by Fallohides in any overarching sense, only that some clans have Fallohide leaders. Reading objectively, it simply isn’t the racial hegemony that you seem to be implying.

    Originally Posted by pendell
    Maybe the showrunners saw just how easily this could go….
    Both in this case and in general, I think you’re reading way too much into this.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    If the Harfoots aren't precursors to the Shire hobbits I'm not sure what the purpose is in having them on screen at all.
    Presumably they have something relevant to do in this era? That's an odd stance, it's like saying what's the point in Bronwyn or Disa if her descendants aren't in LOTR.

    We might see is a change in leadership over the seasons of the series, where Harfoot leadership is adopted by critical members of the community and usher a small but steady change that as audience members we can interprete as the beginnings of a sedentary, less superstitious Hobbit culture.
    Not seeing how this makes a difference.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post


    Did you mean to say descendants, or antecedents?

    Antecedents, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan


    Both in this case and in general, I think you’re reading way too much into this.
    Time will tell. I don't think the Harfoots are going to stay just comic relief characters though. At least, not all of them. Which means they have to become more noble and less 1920s minstrel show.

    Although , come to think of it, maybe the fact of an Irish accent has a different meaning. In The films it breaks down like this:

    Pippin - Scots.
    Frodo, Bilbo - RP (Received Pronunciation, used by BBC announcers)
    Merry , other hobbits - West Country.


    From this I have to wonder whether the 'English' accent in Middle-Earth is specifically meant to portray a Hobbiton accent. It may be the accent of what is, for Hobbits, the Big City, the language of education and arts. RP itself is a very recent dialect , only really getting its start in 1922 when the BBC made it the standard default. If I'm reading this correctly, only 3% of the UK population speaks in this accent.

    People like Oxford professors. Or , in Middle-earth, crusty old bachelors who write long books titled "Translations from the Elvish" . People who are considerably out of the norm and considered "queer" by their neighbors. That's why most of Hobbiton speaks west country while Bilbo and Frodo speak RP.

    So it's reasonable these Harfoots would not speak perfect RP -- it's a recent innovation even in the real world. And we can't use Anglo-Saxon/German roots, because the Rohirrim seem to have those sewn up.

    Although, come to think of it, there are linguistic similarities between the Rohirrim and the Shire. The Rohirrim have the word "holybytla", which is the closest we have to "hobbit" in any other language.

    At any rate, it's reasonable that the Harfoots would not speak RP and we would need some other dialect to convey the older language of the earlier hobbits. I find it interesting they chose an entirely different accent from any used in the films (West Country, RP, Scot, Cockney). I can see why the use of Irish might be ... questionable ... for these figures of fun, but I'm not sure what other accent they could use that the viewing audience might recognize. Old English?German would probably be more accurate, but would it communicate to the audience?

    Yes, I AM overthinking this. It's what I do

    Respectfully,

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Although, come to think of it, there are linguistic similarities between the Rohirrim and the Shire. The Rohirrim have the word "holybytla", which is the closest we have to "hobbit" in any other language.
    This is mentioned in the lore. The Vales of Anduin region, where the Hobbits lived prior to their migration westward, abuts the territory of the Rohirrim. The groups were presumably neighbors for some time, during the early portion of Rohan's history, resulting in linguistic exchange.

    This is also part and parcel of how Amazon's show is in wholly uncharted territory. The origin of Hobbits is never presented in the legendarium, but logically it falls out of the various experiments in the manipulation of humans by Morgoth and Sauron that also results in werewolves, vampires, and other nasty beings briefly mentioned at points. Hobbits, being naturally resistant to the shadow, were presumably either a failed experiment or some group of survivors redeemed by the influence of the Valar - broken out of the dungeons of Angband or something like that - at the conclusion of the War of Wrath. But how they got from this presumed origin state, one they would nominally share with various groups of humans liberated from Morgoth following the War of Wrath, to their arrival in the Vales of Anduin is completely unknown.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Originally Posted by pendell
    The Rohirrim have the word "holybytla", which is the closest we have to "hobbit" in any other language.
    Holbytla, and it’s not a Rohirrim word, but the author’s translation of the original Rohirrim kûd-dûkan.

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    The Vales of Anduin region, where the Hobbits lived prior to their migration westward, abuts the territory of the Rohirrim. The groups were presumably neighbors for some time, during the early portion of Rohan's history, resulting in linguistic exchange.
    Not simply linguistic exchange; we’re told that the hobbits had earlier spoken a language that was very close to the language of Rohan.

    Originally Posted by Mechalich
    The origin of Hobbits is never presented in the legendarium, but logically it falls out of the various experiments in the manipulation of humans by Morgoth and Sauron that also results in werewolves, vampires, and other nasty beings briefly mentioned at points.
    This seems as far-fetched as some of the other speculation in this thread, and it’s highly unlikely this is the origin of the proto-hobbits. Morgoth and Sauron don’t create, only warp and twist, and the products of their twistings seem to be invariably evil. Hobbits are not; on balance they seem rather good, and they certainly don’t fit in with phantoms and dreadful beasts, so logically there’s no reason to believe that hobbits were created by Sauron.

    Really, it’s hard to imagine grouping hobbits together with vampires, orcs, werewolves and other Morgul-spawn. Probably the simplest explanation within the context of the world is that Yavanna, having seen Aulë create a race of his own, likewise brought forth a small folk who would live quietly and gently upon the land.

    .
    Last edited by Palanan; 2022-09-12 at 07:50 PM.

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    Default Re: The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    This seems as far-fetched as some of the other speculation in this thread, and it’s highly unlikely this is the origin of the proto-hobbits. Morgoth and Sauron don’t create, only warp and twist, and the products of their twistings seem to be invariably evil.
    Not to mention, why would they go to the trouble of creating a species whose only real advantage over regular Men is that they find it easier to hide due to their size? They have plenty of much better spies already.

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