The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[TheSummoner]

If the Harfoots aren't precursors to the Shire hobbits I'm not sure what the purpose is in having them on screen at all. Not to mention the appendices straight out told us the Harfoots are the descendants of Shire-hobbits along with Stoors and Fallohides. If they weren't going to have them be any relation to the hobbits of the blockbuster movies they could have just given them a made up name. No, they're definitely trying to draw a connection of some kind.

The relation they have to the hobbits of the blockbuster movies is that they serve as member berries. Member Frodo? Member Sam? Oh, I member, Lord of the Rings was fantastic!

Someone up above re-posted "concerning hobbits" for which I am grateful. Possibly one development is for a Fallohide to take over as chief of this Harfoot band, which as was explicitly spelled out is something that often happened among the early hobbits.

Yes, I note that the Fallohides "tend to be fair" and friendly with elves while the other two subgroups are dark and tend to be ruled over by the Fallohides. Fantasy racism ... ugh.

That does look like an extremely likely way for this to happen; some proto-fallohide comes into contact with the elves, then comes back to bring light to the Harfoots.

Maybe this is why they included a dark-skinned elf in the story? Maybe the showrunners saw just how easily this could go into racism/colonialism and decided to add some diversity to take some of the bite out of it.

This is definitely reaching. Look, I'm one of the people in the thread more critical of the show, but let's at least be fair and judge it based on what's actually there rather than or at least hinted at rather than wild speculation about how it might eventually link up to what comes later. Bluntly, there's plenty there to judge without doing that, and they've played quite loose with established canon already.

As for Arondir, it's been stated in interviews that the showrunners had a desire to reflect the modern world over mythological, pre-modern one depicted in Tolkien's work. That is the reason for the decision. No more, no less. It's got nothing to do with some weird sociopolitical subtext that someone could theoretically find if they went out of their way to search for it in plotlines that won't come until several seasons later.

Presumably out of a general feeling that a show set in Middle-Earth needs hobbits in some form, or it just wouldn’t feel Middle-Earthy enough.

This is the stated reason, yes. Amazon has been up front about this.

Presumably they have something relevant to do in this era? That's an odd stance, it's like saying what's the point in Bronwyn or Disa if her descendants aren't in LOTR.

Canonically, they do not. The showrunners (Patrick McKay is one of them) have given the the reason they are in the show.

Another concern: Is the series going to put hobbits in the Second Age? In short (so to speak), yes and no. “One of the very specific things the texts say is that hobbits never did anything historic or noteworthy before the Third Age,” says McKay. “But really, does it feel like Middle-earth if you don’t have hobbits or something like hobbits in it?”

Source

Where the plotline will go is anyone's guess. If you're looking for how it ties into canon though, you're probably looking in the wrong place.

[Sapphire Guard]

Tying into canon is not my concern, it's apparent by now they're not following it closely. Harfoots are now in the show, presumably the plotline will eventually go somewhere.

So the Harfoots are creations of Morgoth now, corruptions of nature? Talk about digging a deeper hole.

The hobbits have no explanation, and like Bombadil, that's the point. Tolkien understands that not everything about the world is known and things get lost to history.

At any rate, it's reasonable that the Harfoots would not speak RP and we would need some other dialect to convey the older language of the earlier hobbits. I find it interesting they chose an entirely different accent from any used in the films (West Country, RP, Scot, Cockney). I can see why the use of Irish might be ... questionable ... for these figures of fun, but I'm not sure what other accent they could use that the viewing audience might recognize.

American? Any other regional accent that doesn't have a real world history of being suppressed? Just give them the RP British accents to subvert expectations?

[Xihirli]

So the Harfoots are creations of Morgoth now, corruptions of nature? Talk about digging a deeper hole.

Uh when does the show say this?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Xihirli
Uh when does the show say this?

It doesn’t. That’s just some far-reaching speculation a little upthread—speculation for which there is absolutely no support in the show, the books, or the lore.

[KorvinStarmast]

Deep involvement with one of the Wizards is actually not a bad seed, so far as things go.

Beats the speculation about being twisted creations of Morgoth.

Not simply linguistic exchange; we’re told that the hobbits had earlier spoken a language that was very close to the language of Rohan.

And IIRC a cultural pipe weed smoking connection.

Really, it’s hard to imagine grouping hobbits together with vampires, orcs, werewolves and other Morgul-spawn. Probably the simplest explanation within the context of the world is that Yavanna, having seen Aulë create a race of his own, likewise brought forth a small folk who would live quietly and gently upon the land.

I'll roll with that one.

The hobbits have no explanation, and like Bombadil, that's the point. Tolkien understands that not everything about the world is known and things get lost to history.

Yes.

Any other regional accent that doesn't have a real world history of being suppressed? Just give them the RP British accents to subvert expectations?

The oversensitivity to artistic choices is becoming tiresome.

OK, now for my assessment of the episode:

Spoiler: Mostly good, some not so much

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1. Liked Elendil and his jaw clenching interactions with his kids.
2. Gimme a break: "I slipped her fancy elven-work knife out of his belt and here it is, Galadriel" with Elendil being oblivious? (Maybe he and Halbrand planned that ahead of time?)
3. Liked Elendil speaking in Quenya, which thaws the Ice Queen Galadriel a bit and gets her off of the complete {censored} roll she'd been on. Horse riding, gratuitous fun scene, nice camera work.
4. Liked Halbrand in general. The mugging/fight scene was a little clunky but I guess it's meant to show that this dude's a badassorsomething.
5. Liked the attempt at escape from the Orc slave-labor-ditch. Not sure why the Orcs didn't kill Drzzt, though. Glad they didn't, he now gets to be interrogated by the BBEG. Mustache Twirling time, maybe?
6. Harfoot scenes were painful to watch - their tone does not match the rest of the show so far. The final "friend" from the meteor man was something that I liked as an ending note.
7. Liked how the orcs were really sunshine averse. That's sticking to the lore, good!
8. Loved the ship scenes. (OK, career Navy guy, sue me!) The Sea Is Always Right!
9. Liked the entry into Numenor scene with all of the big faces carved from the rocks.
10. Was not sure what to make of Numenorian attitudes towards elves - Sauron hasn't been there yet, has he? -
11. Liked Miriel's cliffhanger line at the end "Father, ..."

[Aedilred]

OK, now for my assessment of the episode:

Spoiler: Mostly good, some not so much

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10. Was not sure what to make of Numenorian attitudes towards elves - Sauron hasn't been there yet, has he? -

Spoiler

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The Númenoreans began to turn against the elves and the Valar during the reign of Tar-Ancalimon, hundreds of years before [the assumed date of] this episode. Divisions emerged between the King's Men, who resented the Ban of the Valar and rejected friendship with the Elves, and the Faithful, who wanted to maintain the relationship with the elves. The King's Men gradually gained the ascendancy. The Faithful, headed by Elendil (not this Elendil, an ancestor) held out in their own territories in the west. Attitudes shifted back and forth a bit but the King's Men remained largely dominant until the Fall, with a couple of exceptions (most notably, Miriel's father, who was sympathetic to the elves).

I'm not sure what role Sauron played in all this but I don't think he officially arrived in Númenor until much later; the Númenoreans seem to have turned against the elves on their own.

[KorvinStarmast]

Spoiler

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The Númenoreans began to turn against the elves and the Valar during the reign of Tar-Ancalimon, hundreds of years before [the assumed date of] this episode. Divisions emerged between the King's Men, who resented the Ban of the Valar and rejected friendship with the Elves, and the Faithful, who wanted to maintain the relationship with the elves. The King's Men gradually gained the ascendancy. The Faithful, headed by Elendil (not this Elendil, an ancestor) held out in their own territories in the west. Attitudes shifted back and forth a bit but the King's Men remained largely dominant until the Fall, with a couple of exceptions (most notably, Miriel's father, who was sympathetic to the elves).

I'm not sure what role Sauron played in all this but I don't think he officially arrived in Númenor until much later; the Númenoreans seem to have turned against the elves on their own.

That's right, they resented not being able to travel to Valinor but the elves of Valinor could travel to see them, as well as the elves of Middle Earth. Thanks for reminding me.

Year Events

Spoiler: A bit of lore compression, but I have at last placed the King and Miriel in context; all of the 1000-2000 years where Sauron and the Elves are in Conflict are probably moved to later for ease of script writing

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c. 1800 Númenor begins establishing permanent settlements in Middle-earth.
2029 Tar-Atanamir the Great becomes thirteenth King of Númenor but is hostile to the Valar. The Elendili or "The Faithful" still receive the Elves in secret.
2221 Tar-Ancalimon becomes fourteenth King of Númenor. The people of Númenor become separated into two parties; The King's Men and The Faithful.
2899 Ar-Adûnakhôr becomes twentieth King of Númenor and the first to take his royal name in Adûnaic, the Númenórean language, instead of Quenya, the high language of the Elves. He bans people from using the Elvish tongues around him.
c. 3110 Usage of Elvish languages and contact with the Elves prohibited in Númenor.
3119 Birth of Elendil.
3177 Tar-Palantir becomes twenty-fourth King of Númenor, he repents, resulting in civil unrest in Númenor.

For the time being, I will likely keep referring to Arondir as Drz'zt - two cases of plot armor prevent him from being killed so far. Hopefully, he'll do some more cool stuff without plot armor (I must say that I absolutely loved his flying ax trick and the various chain tricks) ... I'll probably stop doing that eventually.

[pendell]

For the time being, I will likely keep referring to Arondir as Drz'zt - two cases of plot armor prevent him from being killed so far. Hopefully, he'll do some more cool stuff without plot armor (I must say that I absolutely loved his flying ax trick and the various chain tricks) ... I'll probably stop doing that eventually.

No Scimitars? Maybe he can borrow a pair from the orcs; they seem to favor them.

There's a certain irony that Tolkien in writing seems to have looked down on the "crooked" swords of the easterling humans and the orcs. In fact, scimitars have a distinct advantage over straight swords, which is why they show up all over the place. Even the 19th century cavalry saber follows the pattern to a certain extent.

As far as the origin of the hobbits, I don't believe they are a failed experiment of Morgoth's because they'd be a great deal more damaged psychologically if they were; Orcs, trolls, werewolves all turn out pretty awful, and the hobbits aren't starting from that point.

My own theory of the origin of hobbits are one of two:

1) A race of humans. We have dark-skinned people, people with folds on their eyelids, people with curly hair, people with red hair, why not short people with hair on their feet?

2) "Iluvatar's little joke". Some smaller third theme that got snuck in with the first and second themes.

As I recall, Merry and Pippin told Treebeard to put them in next to men in the lists, so that's probably the closest relationship. They are mortal, so not elves. They have no kinship with stone, so not Aule's kids. Too blasted decent to be Morgoth's. I suppose they could be another Yavanna special, but I'm leaning to an offshoot of humans.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sapphire Guard]

Uh when does the show say this?

It doesn't, I was responding to someone else's theory upthread. The show rightly won't go near any of this.

[TheSummoner]

The Hobbits/Morgoth thing is more a sarcastic jab at the way they abandon anyone who can't keep up with the caravan to die than anything else. It isn't meant to be taken seriously (I assume/hope).

Since we're branching away from that discussion, I mentioned a bit of this before, but I'll go into more depth on my thoughts on the other plotlines now.

Spoiler: Galadriel

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• Galadriel immediately comes off as not only needlessly, but also moronically hostile. She is instantly suspicious of the Numenoreans, which on its own is fine - I can accept that she has reasons that the audience hasn't been given yet - but the real problem comes when she's brought before the queen. Galadriel is in a place where she has no power, brought before the person with the most power in the local area, and already believes that the people here do not like her. Any reasonable person would see this as a situation where the smartest option is to keep your head down and not do anything to gain their ire until you've got a better opportunity. Our haughty protagonist doesn't have time for that though, and behaves as though she's the one in control when Miriel could, if she chose to, easily order Galadriel chained, beaten, or killed.
• The way Halbrand stole the knife back in plain view of a room full of people, the queen included, without being noticed beggared belief.
• The only time in the show so far when Galadriel has shown any sort of positive emotion was in the gratuitous, slow-motion horse scene. I can get why she wouldn't be happy during the whole time stuck at sea, but a bit of warmth shown towards her supposed friend Elrond wouldn't have been uncalled for. I'm also left wondering what the point of the scene even was.
• Elendil is obligated to bring Galadriel to his betters. Miriel implies that Elendil has also committed treason by bringing an elf to Numenor. Ok then.
• The sea is always right. The sea wanted Galadriel and Halbrand dead. They would've been had Elendil not intervened. This phrase is so open ended to be meaningless and strikes me as the showrunners wanting to create a memeworthy phrase that the audience would latch onto. Game of Thrones had a few of those, but they actually made sense. It is known, Khalasi. The thing we're talking about is common knowledge (and you being a foreign princess don't know it because you're not familiar with our culture). You know nothing, Jon Snow. You're not as clever as you think you are and the wildlings know things that you don't. This one, not so much.
• The Numenoreans had a report from a spy, detailing that Sauron had a backup plan for if Morgoth was defeated. A plan for his forces to gather in the southlands and create a realm where evil would not only endure, but thrive. It's been CENTURIES since Morgoth was defeated. NO ONE thought this report was worth following up on in all that time?
• The sigil is a map. A map showing those forces where to gather. Again, this mark is CENTURIES old. It was carved into Finrod's corpse. Galadriel was hunting Sauron for CENTURIES because of this. How has no one noticed what was going on in all that time, why has Sauron not acted yet? How much time do you need to prepare? Orcus on his throne, indeed. This wasn't an issue in the original lore since Sauron didn't have that sort of plan and didn't head to Mordor until he was ready to make his move, but by messing with the order of events, you get this sort of massive plot hole.
• Galadriel is "the scourge of the orcs" apparently. How would anyone in Numenor, a realm where the majority of the population is hostile to the elves know of this. The show is treating her like she's some sort of celebrity when they're on an island incredibly far from the mainland, in a setting with no fast means for information to travel.

Spoiler: Arondir

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Bulleted list doesn't really work as well here. There's less I want to talk about, but I want to go into more detail on those points. Of the three plotlines this episode, his is probably the best. This is unfortunate because it is also almost completely filler. He begins the episode as a prisoner of the orcs and ends it as a prisoner of the orcs, excpet now he's being taken to their leader. Everything that happens could've been skipped by just having them take him to their leader on account of being an elf and the overall plot would've remained the same.

Arondir deduces that the orcs are looking for something. Something like a weapon. They've given no indication that they're searching for a weapon, but he just knows this. From context, it seems pretty obvious to the audience that they're looking for the broken sword the kid found before, but Arondir doesn't know that this sword exists and there's been no indication that there's anything special about it. He just sort of intuits that they're searching for a weapon, though. If I'm remembering correctly, Galadriel in episode one also just sort of intuited that the mark on Finrod's corpse was something Sauron left for the forces of evil to follow without having any sort of information that could logically lead to that conclusion.

So the orcs are digging a big trench. Arondir says this is how they were able to move around unseen. A bit later in the episode, we see a zoomed out shot of the area around the trench. It's massive.

How did no one notice this? Because it seems like a massive scar on the landscape that you wouldn't need an elf's heightened vision to notice. Now, the trench is covered in cloth. This is because the orcs don't like the sun and it keeps them mostly out of it. I say mostly because there are still beams of sunlight coming through the top of the trench. Where did they get all that cloth? Don't know, maybe Mordor has a booming textile industry. Do you know what would've solved both problems? If the orcs had dug a tunnel entirely underground instead of a massive, easily spotted trench. The writers want a payoff later in the episode where Arondir tears the cloth and exposes the orcs to sunlight though, so the setup doesn't need to make sense as long as it gets them to that end point.

The tree... Before anything else, take another look at that screenshot above and note that the entire area around the trench has been cleared except for that one tree directly in its path. Now, the elves don't want to cut it down. Don't question why this one single tree is still there or how the other ones got cut down if the elves are so adamantly opposed, just roll with it, we need to have some drama. The elves initially refuse and this ends with Arondir's friend... Some guy who I don't remember if they ever gave him a name... being killed. The scene would have a lot more impact if some time had been spent actually getting to know the character.

I'm sure there are others with more knowledge of Tolkien's elves than I, so I have a question. Does the reaction the elves had to being ordered to cut the tree make any sense? Elves love nature, elves dislike senseless destruction, I get this. Is one tree worth dying for? Short of defeating the entire orcish force, that tree is going down one way or another. Like Galadriel, the elves are in a situation where they have no power and the ones who do have power easily can (and in this case actually do) kill them for causing problems. If the elves won't cut the tree, there is nothing stopping them from killing the elves and cutting the tree down themselves. Does anything in the lore indicate that this is a situation that an elf would consider worth throwing his life away for? It's artificial drama.

They make their escape attempt. Arondir fights Ed from The Lion King. The escape attempt fails, and plot armor prevents the orcs from just killing the guy who killed several of them and has proven himself to be far more dangerous to be kept alive than he's worth. End of his part of this episode. Arondir as a character is more or less fine, but the logic around his storyline makes no sense whatsoever.

[Divayth Fyr]

Any reasonable person would see this as a situation where the smartest option is to keep your head down and not do anything

While terribly dumb, one could argue it is in character - nothing she did so far paints her as reasonable.

[pendell]

As far as elves being sad about cutting down trees, the Noldor were smiths, far closer to the earth and its gems than they were to the forest. Green-elves might very well have a problem with it; they took a dislike to humans because humans cut down trees. High Elves , Noldor-elves, not so much. Remember the fellowship in the region of Hollin, where the elvish ring-makers lived; the stones remembered them fondly, the trees don't remember them at all.

Of course, we have to consider that the orcs defile everything they touch, and being forced to participate in this defilement would be a blow to any pure-hearted soul in middle-earth, Noldor included.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Zevox]

Re: the origins of Hobbit - Tolkien strongly implied in the prologue to LotR that Hobbits were an offshoot of Humans, just with the exact details of the relationship between the two and when and how they may have split from each other being lost to history.

It is plain indeed that in spite of later estrangement Hobbits are relatives of ours: far nearer to us than Elves, or even than Dwarves. Of old they spoke the languages of Men, after their own fashion, and liked and disliked much the same things as Men did. But what exactly our relationship is can no longer be discovered. The beginning of Hobbits lies far back in the Elder Days that are now lost and forgotten. Only the Elves still preserve any records of that vanished time, and their traditions are concerned almost entirely with their own history, in which Men appear seldom and Hobbits are not mentioned at all.

Any suggestion of Morgoth having anything to do with them can be dismissed out of hand. Morgoth could only twist and corrupt, and Hobbits are clearly neither twisted nor corrupted in the way everything else he had a hand in was. And Sauron never engaged in such activities, preferring to increase his own power with the creation of the One Ring rather than expend it on new servants the way his master did.

[KorvinStarmast]

As far as elves being sad about cutting down trees,

Since the southlands are to the east of the Misty Mountains, why would we not assume that the Arondir and his comrades are not Sindar? Their cloaks are grey in that first scene in the human village in Episode 1. The Noldor are up in Lindon, waaay up in the North West.

Spoiler: Galadriel the she-wolf

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She is instantly suspicious of the Numenoreans, which on its own is fine - I can accept that she has reasons that the audience hasn't been given yet - but the real problem comes when she's brought before the queen.

She was there before Numenor was raised from the waters. She has lived nearly 3000 years (see Isildur? He's born, and canon holds the SA to be over three thousand years long) through the Second age. During the first half of the second age Numenor and the elves got along fine, and then over time the Numenorians turned their backs on their relationship with the elves. She's had 1500 years to be increasingly sorrowful and upset that the Numenoreans are being such jerkwads (in general). Notice how she lights up when she hears a Numenorean speak in Elvish?

Spoiler: must bring her to my betters

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Elendil is obligated to bring Galadriel to his betters. Miriel implies that Elendil has also committed treason by bringing an elf to Numenor. Ok then.

Yeah, kind of nuts.

Spoiler: The Sea Is, In Fact, Always Right!

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[*]The sea is always right. The sea wanted Galadriel and Halbrand dead.

No, it didn't, the sea wanted Galdriel and Halbrand to be there to meet Elendil. Might want to look up a Vala named Ulmo. It also wanted to feed the monster with the others on that raft. The Sea Is Always Right.

Spoiler: The Spy Who Failed Me

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[*]The Numenoreans had a report from a spy, detailing that Sauron had a backup plan for if Morgoth was defeated. A plan for his forces to gather in the southlands and create a realm where evil would not only endure, but thrive. It's been CENTURIES since Morgoth was defeated. NO ONE thought this report was worth following up on in all that time?

There are some real life Intelligence Services who have missed obvious clues, but we won't go there due to Forum Rules. Yeah, it's plausible, given how often the elves screwed the pooch when watching Morgoth.

Spoiler: The Sigil is a what, now?

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The sigil is a map.

That one still has me going "what?"

Spoiler: I Dream of Scourgie with the Bright Blonde Hair

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Galadriel is "the scourge of the orcs" apparently. How would anyone in Numenor, a realm where the majority of the population is hostile to the elves know of this.
See above. For the first 1500 years of second age Numenor and Elves get along fine. Her exploits as orc scourge would be legendary, regardless of if they disliked the elves + Valar eventually

Spoiler: The Other Spies Who Failed Me

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So the orcs are digging a big trench. Arondir says this is how they were able to move around unseen. A bit later in the episode, we see a zoomed out shot of the area around the trench. It's massive.

Intel failures, see above.

Spoiler: Elvses and Treeses, Precious!

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I'm sure there are others with more knowledge of Tolkien's elves than I, so I have a question. Does the reaction the elves had to being ordered to cut the tree make any sense?

Green elves? Yes. Sindar? Yes. Noldor? Maybe? Since we are south and west of the MIsty Mountains, likely the elves are Sindar, or Green Elves, but not Noldor as they are all up in Lindon.

Spoiler: Dog Bites Elf

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Arondir fights Ed from The Lion King.

OK, I giggled.

[Metastachydium]

As far as elves being sad about cutting down trees, the Noldor were smiths, far closer to the earth and its gems than they were to the forest. Green-elves might very well have a problem with it; they took a dislike to humans because humans cut down trees. High Elves , Noldor-elves, not so much. Remember the fellowship in the region of Hollin, where the elvish ring-makers lived; the stones remembered them fondly, the trees don't remember them at all.

Of course, we have to consider that the orcs defile everything they touch, and being forced to participate in this defilement would be a blow to any pure-hearted soul in middle-earth, Noldor included.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Since the southlands are to the east of the Misty Mountains, why would we not assume that the Arondir and his comrades are not Sindar? Their cloaks are grey in that first scene in the human village in Episode 1. The Noldor are up in Lindon, waaay up in the North West.

Given where they live and that I keep seeing them described as silvan elves, I'd say they aren't Sindar, let alone Noldor, but rather (non-Green) Nandor that unlike the Sindar and the Laiquendi never migrated west past the Misty Mountains.

[TheSummoner]

I'll reiterate here that my objection is not that the elves do not want to cut down the tree. My objection is that their opposition to cutting down the tree is so strong that they are willing to risk death over it.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: Numenor

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Elendil obviously didn't actually commit treason, or Miriel would have sentenced him, she's just trying to put pressure on him so he does what she wants.

Formerly, Numenor was friendly with elves, it seems likely that they have some old obscure law about elven mariners that Elendil knows about because he's in the 'friendly to Elves' faction. Miriel is secretly Faithful too, but she can't admit it openly because the elf unfriendly faction is powerful. So she has to openly be antagonistic to Galadriel while being secretly on her side.

She thinks Elendil is likely to be elf friendly or he would not have rescued Galadriel, but can't say for certain, so she puts pressure on him to out himself with the accusation of treason, giving him reason to say 'no, I hate elves, honest' When he doesn't do that, she figures he really is elf friendly and assigns him to Galadriel to keep her out of the elf unfriendly faction's hands.

Re: The Sea is Always Right, that's a slogan that Numenor mariners learn, it's not supposed to be taken entirely literally. The gist is supposed to be 'wake up, sailor, the sea is not your friend, it's dangerous and a moment's inattention can cost you. If the sea puts you in a dangerous situation, you have to deal with it as it is, you can't argue with the sea, you just have to deal with the situations you're presented with as they happen.

Elendil tries to spin it as 'I was taught that the sea was right in Mariner school, it's not my fault, I'm just a dumb captain doing as I was taught', and Miriel shuts that down.

On the whole, this makes sense.

Spoiler: Sigil

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This one is a headscratcher, how does anyone not Maia know what mountain ranges look like from above, and where do they get their super accurate maps. Maybe Sauron just explained what the sigil meant to his lieutenants, and the ' matching the map' thing was just trolling. It's odd that there is a backup plan in the first place, as why would you assume that Immortal Morgoth would fall (and while he was active, that would be treason)

And why put the mark on Finrod's body?

Spoiler: Crackpot theory

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Maybe Adar is Finrod or his body reanimated?It doesn't make much sense, but it's just possible these showrunners might do that.

Spoiler: Halbrand theory, possible leak

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There's a theory or leak floating around on the internet that he is Sauron, and that is looking more likely now, he does like to forge and I could see these writers wanting to subvert the 'return of the king' story.

Spoiler: Southlands

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Not bad, but there's not much to say about it. I'm not usually a fan of 'kill all the extras', and they're skating around important stories and things like 'how did the other elves get captured?'

[diplomancer]

While terribly dumb, one could argue it is in character - nothing she did so far paints her as reasonable.

It is in someone's character. But that someone is not Galadriel, just a random woman with the same name.

[Keltest]

I'll reiterate here that my objection is not that the elves do not want to cut down the tree. My objection is that their opposition to cutting down the tree is so strong that they are willing to risk death over it.

Its hardly out of character for a Tolkein elf to be so pathologically stubborn and set on something that they would get themselves killed rather than budge from their chosen stupid hill.

[KorvinStarmast]

Given where they live and that I keep seeing them described as silvan elves, I'd say they aren't Sindar, let alone Noldor, but rather (non-Green) Nandor that unlike the Sindar and the Laiquendi never migrated west past the Misty Mountains.

I can live with Nandor, but I think the gray cloaks in Ep 1 hint at Sindar ... not a big deal.

Its hardly out of character for a Tolkein elf to be so pathologically stubborn and set on something that they would get themselves killed rather than budge from their chosen stupid hill.

Stubborn Noldor, Yeah, stubborn elves (in general), yeah. The pointies can give the dwarves a run for their money on stubborn.

[warty goblin]

It is in someone's character. But that someone is not Galadriel, just a random woman with the same name.

As I said before, it's a fine fantasy show where for some reason a couple people have names from Lord of the Rings. Which is still better than I was expecting, since it's at least a decent enough show. Not the best thing ever, but for big budget streaming TV I'll take it.

[KorvinStarmast]

As I said before, it's a fine fantasy show where for some reason a couple people have names from Lord of the Rings. Which is still better than I was expecting, since it's at least a decent enough show. Not the best thing ever, but for big budget streaming TV I'll take it.

Not sure if the pacing couldn't use a tweak, but at least it's not house of the dragon, pacing wise. That one needs to shift into second gear.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by warty goblin
As I said before, it's a fine fantasy show where for some reason a couple people have names from Lord of the Rings. Which is still better than I was expecting, since it's at least a decent enough show. Not the best thing ever, but for big budget streaming TV I'll take it.

That may indeed be the best way to approach this, but I feel like I shouldn’t have to throw out everything I know about a legendarium in order to best appreciate an adaptation of that legendarium.

[warty goblin]

That may indeed be the best way to approach this, but I feel like I shouldn’t have to throw out everything I know about a legendarium in order to best appreciate an adaptation of that legendarium.

If it was an adaptation of a normal novel I'd be a lot more put out. But it's an adaptation of an extremely arch and not particularly detailed appendix. They aren't really adapting a story, they're building a story out of an outline. Had Tolkien sat down and written a novel set in the Second Age, he would have changed things relative to the appendices.


Are these the changes Tolkien would have made? Absolutely not, but neither were the Jackson movies, which even most book fans are good with. For myself, most of the things I dislike in the movies I don't dislike because they weren't in the books, but because they aren't good on their own merits.

And to be clear, I think there's solid reasons to dislike the show on its own merits. Galadriel, after a strong start, mostly just seems stupid at this point. There's definitely pointless drama filler content. It's not a masterpiece. But, at least to me, it's a decent high fantasy show, something that has basically never existed before. I'm willing to enjoy it for that until such time as it becomes unenjoyable. I don't see any benefit to hating it because it isn't sufficiently faithful to the appendix of a 67 year old novel, even if I love that novel a great deal.

[Tyndmyr]

As for Arondir, it's been stated in interviews that the showrunners had a desire to reflect the modern world over mythological, pre-modern one depicted in Tolkien's work. That is the reason for the decision. No more, no less. It's got nothing to do with some weird sociopolitical subtext that someone could theoretically find if they went out of their way to search for it in plotlines that won't come until several seasons later.

Leaving aside all the speculation, that's a strange desire.

[warty goblin]

Leaving aside all the speculation, that's a strange desire.

Not really. It's a story (and also a billion dollar product), so it's targeted an audience, in this case a modern and likely young, urban and therefore multiracial one. People like to see people like themselves valorized in stories, it's been a recognized good move in storytelling to pander to this since at least Book 2 of the Iliad, where the narrative stops dead to name check every possible Greek city and list the awesome dudes who came from there.

Representation is particularly important to the young urban multiracial demographic, it would be a massive unforced error to not do this. Again, billion dollar investment, best to avoid the most obvious possible ways of sticking your own foot in your mouth and chewing down hard. It's not even a really bold move in the context of fantasy as a whole, D&D has been describing elves as having nut brown skin since what, 3rd edition?

[Tyndmyr]

The casting decision doesn't bother me, the actor's fine.

The desire, however, does. If you don't want to depict a mythological, pre-modern work, why are you adapting Tolkien? The entire appeal of his work is wrapped up in that.

[Aedilred]

Not really. It's a story (and also a billion dollar product), so it's targeted an audience, in this case a modern and likely young, urban and therefore multiracial one. People like to see people like themselves valorized in stories, it's been a recognized good move in storytelling to pander to this since at least Book 2 of the Iliad, where the narrative stops dead to name check every possible Greek city and list the awesome dudes who came from there.

Representation is particularly important to the young urban multiracial demographic, it would be a massive unforced error to not do this. Again, billion dollar investment, best to avoid the most obvious possible ways of sticking your own foot in your mouth and chewing down hard. It's not even a really bold move in the context of fantasy as a whole, D&D has been describing elves as having nut brown skin since what, 3rd edition?

It's difficult to come up with a contrary argument without sounding like a massive racist, of course. I appreciate that people want to see people like themselves on screen and commercially it makes sense to accommodate that. I also respect that it's not fair for actors of colour to be limited to playing certain roles (or types of role: generally subservient ones) in historical dramas and the like.

On the other hand, I do think that it can be indicative of bad and/or lazy worldbuilding to simply create a society that looks like an idealised version of modern America* without all the strife and conflict that (a) led to modern America looking the way it does and (b) still exists in modern America along those same faultlines. I have always felt this about most D&D settings. In a historical drama, I think it can be outright damaging, for projecting false ideas about the past (often without even a half-baked explanation for it, a la Bridgerton) which can have an effect on issues in the present day.

For fantasy, it's obviously less important, but I go back to my point much earlier in the thread about Tolkien's worldbuilding and how given the detail therein it's arguably disrespectful to just chop and change impliedly huge parts of that. Or perhaps, to look at it from a more relevant angle, fans' getting bent out of shape about inherently trivial changes to the world for the purposes of adaptation is generally tolerated and often endorsed in these sort of circles, except for in this one area where the showrunners' right to just arbitrarily change things and make things up is defended on the basis of commerciality and/or appeal to a modern audience - precisely the reason for the majority of the other changes too.

Personally, I can live with it, but I don't think it should be off-limits as a point for discussion and cricitism. Equally, of course, review-bombing it just because it has black people in it is unacceptable, obviously.

*And I do mean specifically American here, at least in the case of Rings of Power. Britain's nonwhite population is predominantly of Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi background, but is there a single actor from said backgrounds visible in Rings of Power?

Edit: I think Tyndmyr might have just said a lot of what I meant much more succinctly.

[KorvinStarmast]

*And I do mean specifically American here, at least in the case of Rings of Power. Britain's nonwhite population is predominantly of Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi background, but is there a single actor from said backgrounds visible in Rings of Power?

I am not sure what Miriel's background is (the actor who plays her), but since Amazon is an American company, and that is who is funding the show, that business fact might inform the business-based-artistic choices somewhat.

It doesn't matter that the book's author is a Brit, at this point.

And heck, three thousand years is a long time. There are/were a wide variety of lands and peoples never really addressed in the books as published, so why wouldn't the folk of Near Harad and far Harad be somewhat tanner than the Arnorians and Gondorians? (See parallels to earth where climate informs melanin and such).
The Numenorians sailed all over the world, as long as they didn't sail west, for about 2500 years.
They are/were bound to bring a few brides back in that time, weren't they?

Spoiler: It doesn't take long to start joining one people to another

Show

Heck, the English sailed West, and Pocahontas was married to John Rolfe within a few years of the English and Powhatan's people encountering each other in the Jamestown area. In 2500 years, I'd expect to see a lot of mixing going on.

[TheSummoner]

It's difficult to come up with a contrary argument without sounding like a massive racist, of course. I appreciate that people want to see people like themselves on screen and commercially it makes sense to accommodate that. I also respect that it's not fair for actors of colour to be limited to playing certain roles (or types of role: generally subservient ones) in historical dramas and the like.

On the other hand, I do think that it can be indicative of bad and/or lazy worldbuilding to simply create a society that looks like an idealised version of modern America* without all the strife and conflict that (a) led to modern America looking the way it does and (b) still exists in modern America along those same faultlines. I have always felt this about most D&D settings. In a historical drama, I think it can be outright damaging, for projecting false ideas about the past (often without even a half-baked explanation for it, a la Bridgerton) which can have an effect on issues in the present day.

It's certainly indictive of priorities beyond faithfully adapting the source material. In a modern setting or a futuristic one, it makes sense that the demographics in story would reflect those of the real world. In a historical one, not so much. In a fantasy one, it depends a lot on the specifics of the setting.

I don't imagine many people would argue in good faith against the idea that modern, diverse demographics require safe, reliable, and preferably fast means travel (or delving into the darker aspects of real world history which even then required those things to a lesser degree). If a fantasy setting has a magical solution for that, then it works. If it doesn't, then as in the real world, most people aren't going to travel very far in their lives and as a result, populations will tend to be fairly homogenous. There are ways around this for individual characters and small groups. MOST people aren't going to travel far, but there are some that you can justify it for. Sailors, traveling merchants, soldiers and so on are all the sort of people who could believably be found far from home.

Personally, I can live with it, but I don't think it should be off-limits as a point for discussion and cricitism. Equally, of course, review-bombing it just because it has black people in it is unacceptable, obviously.

Is there any evidence that that is happening to any meaningful degree? I won't discount that some small number of people are doing it, but I doubt it's any relevant number. Certainly the discussion was done to death before the show was released, but that's likely because so little information was given that there was little else to discuss. Since release, the criticism seems to have centered a lot more around the writing and pacing. Accusing the existing fanbase of a property of being some form of bad person has become a common way for studios to deflect criticism aimed at whatever film or show is being produced. Trying to invalidate people disliking something and voicing that opinion by leveling it as "review bombing" is another way to deflect criticism and protect the production and financial interests of the studio.

For a really good comparison, look at House of the Dragon. Both are fantasy shows based on popular properties. Both are released around the same time. Both have had similar discussion around casting choices deviating from established lore. Yet for some reason it's only Rings of Power where the fans are supposedly racist review bombers while House of the Dragon has received generally positive reception from the general audience? I don't buy it.