The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[TheSummoner]

I wanted to argue against Galadriel's plot having the least bad writing, but I'm really struggling to come up with a good argument. I think Arondir's plot is probably the most interesting up until now, but it still has its share completely nonsensical stuff.

Which leaks are those? Is it about what's in the box shown at the end of episode two? Because that's

Spoiler: What's in the box

Show

mithril. Dug too greedily and too deeply and all that.

[pendell]

So ... contrary views.

Is there anyone reading this who liked the Harfoot snippets? Or is a fan of the show in general?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[ecarden]

Is there anyone reading this who liked the Harfoot snippets? Or is a fan of the show in general?

Yes and yes.

I have my issues with it, but the Harfoot section is setting up an interesting mystery and challenge for the characters, even if I don't have a firm grip on the stakes or connectivity yet.

The show in general, I quite enjoy. I'm seeing a bit more of the strings on the characters than I'd like (the visit to the hall of lore especially was a bit of 'the DM mentioned this location, it must be where we're supposed to go next' type scene). But it's still fun. So far my favorite storyline remains Elrond and Durin, but the rest are holding my interest enough to keep watching.

[factotum]

Is there anyone reading this who liked the Harfoot snippets? Or is a fan of the show in general?

The simple fact I'm still here at the end of episode 3 and actually looking forward to what's going to happen in the fourth means I must be somewhat of a fan, because if I didn't find it entertaining I wouldn't have got past the first episode. I think I'm in the warty goblin camp of enjoying it as high fantasy and just ignoring most of the time it's supposed to be based on Tolkien, though. The Harfoots themselves I don't find particularly interesting but the Stranger is a mystery I'm interested to see resolved, Galadriel's character is terrible but her plotline has some promise to it, and I actually like Arondir--best character so far, IMHO.

[truemane]

So ... contrary views.

Is there anyone reading this who liked the Harfoot snippets? Or is a fan of the show in general?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I am both a diehard Tolkien nerd and a fan of the show. I think they could have taken a few more chances, leaned a little harder into the weirdness and specificity of Tolkien's mythos to tell a story that could only happen in Middle Earth, rather than lean away from it and tell a more-or-less bog-standard fantasy story with some Tolkien-esque qualities.

But I can't really blame Payne and McKay for that. Peter Jackson called that tune back in 2001 (to great success) and it would take a strong hand to revise it now. Even if someone wanted to.

I like the spirit of the Harfoot snippets, if not always the execution. I like the idea that these are what became hobbits later on, and are part of the reason why, as Tolkien said, Hobbits are strangely resilient despite their many comforts because, deep down, they know they can live without them.

My main issue with them is the same with all the plotlines, which is I just wish they would get to it already. Whatever it is. I'm enjoying the stories well enough for their own sake, but... it's like, the advice they give aspiring screenwriters is to start every scene as far into it as possible, and start every story as far into it as possible. It feels like they could have started all this way, way further in.

And it would have been fine to meander about, if they were holding fast to canon but since this is all made up anyway, it seems odd they would choose to invent something so bloodless.

BUT it's hard to judge without seeing the whole shape of it. That's one of the real dangers of consuming media the way we do. It's possible that, once it's all done, it might turn out retroactively to have been the best way to go about it.

But I like the show. Warts and all.

[warty goblin]

I'm liking it, by and large I think its fine and trending upwards.

The harfoots are fun and different from the other plotlines, both in stakes and structure. They are comic relief to a degree which I like becausea show having more than one tone is a good thing, but there's serious elements mixed in, I think fairly effectively. Since sky-dude is the most obvious addition to the lore, his mystery is also on some ways the most intriguing; while I don't know how the show is going to do Numenor exactly, I've got a good idea of the broad strokes.

Galadriel is written as an arrogant pain in the ass, and I think that's pretty fine really. Is her behavior smart? No, but I emphatically do not subscribe to the "character is dumb -> plotholeook how smart I am for noticing" school of nerd criticism. She's written that way, it's a choice, it may turn into an interesting character arc. It hasn't yet, but TV character arcs are slower than movie arcs, that's supposed to be one of the advantages of the medium. She's neither book nor movie Galadriel, but as I've said, I've pretty much made my piece with this being none of those things.

Arondir's plotline is engaging, but I don't think there's a lot to say about it. His being kept alive is completely consistent with how the show has shown orcs to work at this point. You rebel, they seem to let it slide or reward you just to make the inevitable pain worse. His survival is only inexplicable or plot armor if you ignore the actual writing the actual show has done to explain it; the only way it could be more obviously set up is if an orc paused for a 5 minute PowerPoint deck on their Top Ten Torment Techniques.

I liked the Dwarf stuff. Nice to see some non-ruined Dwarf grandeur for a change. And good, solid standard Dwarf behavior too. More of this please.

Numenor is fine. At this point it's mostly an exercise in art design, but damn is it good art design.

I don't think it's a masterpiece or anything, but it's good fun on a Friday night. I'm happy with that, and as engaged bybit as any piece of streaming TV in the last year or so.



Mostly I'm confused by why a lot if people in this thread seem like they really don't like the show, yet keep watching and talking about it. I'm genuinely baffled why somebody would do that, when they could spend time on something they actually like. Why would someone spend their leisure time knee deep in things they don't enjoy? I'm genuinely curious here, what's the upside? Weird internet clout chasing? Outright entertainment masochism? A strange enjoyment in being angry?

[Wintermoot]

My wife and I are both quite liking the show yes. Pretty much all parts of the show as well.

The Southlands parts are great. I really think the guy they have playing the main elf does a good job of doing stoic and troubled at the same time. He's quite good at the physical representation of an "elf" IMO. I absolutely LOVE the orcs so far, I think they are being given so much more character and visual loveliness compared to how generic the LOTR/Hobbit Orcs tended to go after so long. I love their underground tunnel kingdom and the funness of them undermining the entire southlands, coming up under villages and taking them from below all while remaining secret and undiscovered. I find it a little unrealistic that the elves set to watch the southlands have completely missed it, but I'm giving it a pass because its an interesting component and reflects how the orcs (commonly shown as stupid, disposable, bumbling and incompetent) can actually be the world-threatening scourge they are talked up to be. I love the idea that this is Mordor before it was Mordor. I would imagine that all this digging, trench warfare and destruction of nature is going to lead to the creation of Mount Doom before the end of the series, a natural catastrophe caused by the orcs that Sauron turns around and makes his advantage.

I'm not a fan of the kid actor who is being corrupted by the sword, but I am waiting to see where they go with that storyline. I'm, personally, not a romance fiction fan so the romance between the elf and Bronwen falls flat for me, but I don't think they are doing a bad job on it, its just not my cup of tea.


The Galadrial parts are good as well. The only criticism I've heard on this forum that I lend any credence to is that I don't think the actress they got is a strong actress. I think she's a bit flat and they could've used someone else to better communicate Galadriel's emotions. But I don't have any problems at all with Galadriel as an action hero and don't buy some of the garbage being spewed about about this storyline. I think it's important to note that everyone saying how unreasonable she's being... she's RIGHT about EVERYTHING. It's been several thousand years and all the other elves want to push the past behind them and pretend everything is better and its NOT. She is literally the ONLY person RIGHT about what's about to happen at all. If Gil-Gilad and Elrond listened to her instead of placating her and sending her off to elf-heaven, maybe they wouldn't be unprepared for what's happening in the southlands and in Numinor. Galadriel is a veteran, returned home from foreign wars, suffering from equal parts PTSD and unable to find her place in the peacetime world. An extremely topical storyline indeed. But its important to note that she's not WRONG about there still being a threat. She's not being unreasonable, she's not overstating the problem and she's the only one still on task. So if there is a failure here, its in portraying every other elf, who are also veterans of the conflict and have personal remembrances and losses as being so pig-headed and stubborn about ignoring her.

Now there are changes you could make to make this storyline better. For example, instead of every single member of Galadriel's hand-picked group of fighters and soldiers all whining about wanting to go home and give up, you could be more realistic about it and show that they were actual soldiers who were willing to follow their captain to the last man. Then in Utumo, instead of them basically betraying her, you could've had one of them terribly wounded by the snow troll, but telling Galadriel to leave them and go on, so that she could've seen what the quest was doing to all of them and make the decision to take them home instead of being forced to. Things like that could've made the story better IMO, but I'm fine with it as is.

The hobbit parts are fine. I don't have issues with the portrayals of "hobbits before the shire". Actually, wait. I do have one problem but its not with showing the hobbits as wandering homeless vagabonds and travelers. Its that the other parts of the world aren't primitive enough. Too much of the costumes and the architecture and the stage-props looks too much like 3rd age middle earth. Everything should be older. I think Numinor is a good example of that. It looks like 500s to 600s greece instead of 1300s europe. So it feels older. Too much of the southlands and elfland look like the PJ era props and builds. I think they are doing an amazing job of sizing the hobbits so they look small. They seem even smaller than the hobbits we come to know in the future. More like brownies than hobbits. I think that's an interesting idea. Hobbits have gotten bigger as they've become more urbanized.

I don't mind them condensing a few thousand years of the 2nd age into a shorter time frame. Frankly, the length of time between events in the written mythos stretches credulity anyway. This happens then 800 years later this happens. That's unnecessary and doesn't ruin anything by condensing it. Take the events that are interesting and shove them together so you can make a show out of it that isn't a history channel documentary.

As you can see there are a LOT of people on this forum enjoying this show. It's just so hard to hear over the relentless negativity of some voices.

[Atranen]

I'm also a fan, for reasons that the few posts prior do a great job of explaining. I like the way the Harfoot society is presented, in that we see the society that may develop into the Hobbits but without the ease and abundance of the Shire. These are people who have a hard life and who are always a misstep from disaster, but retain a steady optimism despite that.

The orcs also are a favorite, because they are frightening. By the end of Peter Jackson's Return of the King, orcs are uninteresting cannon fodder for the heroes to slash through. In particular I like the scene at the end of Ep 2, where Bronwyn and Theo slay the orc who breaks into their home. There's a sense of horror and dread which drives home how terrifying this invasion is. And coupled with the nature of secret evil tunnels, which spread who-knows-how-far, makes them a very satisfying antagonist.

I'll also add the music to the list. Bear McCreary, the composer, outdid himself here, with a score worthy of a full-scale movie. The Numenor theme deserves special attention here. It's as memorable and inspiring as anything in Howard Shore's work (which was also incredible), and I'm glad they've continued to use sound to bring Middle Earth to life.

[Aedilred]

The orcs also are a favorite, because they are frightening. By the end of Peter Jackson's Return of the King, orcs are uninteresting cannon fodder for the heroes to slash through. In particular I like the scene at the end of Ep 2, where Bronwyn and Theo slay the orc who breaks into their home. There's a sense of horror and dread which drives home how terrifying this invasion is. And coupled with the nature of secret evil tunnels, which spread who-knows-how-far, makes them a very satisfying antagonist.

I'll also add the music to the list. Bear McCreary, the composer, outdid himself here, with a score worthy of a full-scale movie. The Numenor theme deserves special attention here. It's as memorable and inspiring as anything in Howard Shore's work (which was also incredible), and I'm glad they've continued to use sound to bring Middle Earth to life.

I agree. Of course it's easier to make orcs menacing antagonists when your protagonists are ordinary people, not the greatest heroes of the age, but even taking that into account it's been done well.

Bear McCreary is a treasure. I cant remember his putting a foot wrong. It may be heresy in some quarters, but I'd take him over Hans Zimmer any day. Is Howard Shore not also involved in this in some capacity?

[KorvinStarmast]

Or is a fan of the show in general?

Yes. I am, in general. So is my wife.

I am both a diehard Tolkien nerd and a fan of the show. I think they could have taken a few more chances, leaned a little harder into the weirdness and specificity of Tolkien's mythos to tell a story that could only happen in Middle Earth, rather than lean away from it and tell a more-or-less bog-standard fantasy story with some Tolkien-esque qualities.

Yes.

get to it already.

Pacing. (Then again, Tolkien got lost one third of the way through FoTR and had to find his way out again.

BUT it's hard to judge without seeing the whole shape of it. That's one of the real dangers of consuming media the way we do. It's possible that, once it's all done, it might turn out retroactively to have been the best way to go about it.

Fair point.

These are people who have a hard life and who are always a misstep from disaster, but retain a steady optimism despite that.

OK.

In particular I like the scene at the end of Ep 2, where Bronwyn and Theo slay the orc who breaks into their home. There's a sense of horror and dread which drives home how terrifying this invasion is.

It's like a level 1 D&D session in the original game: you could die!

I'll also add the music to the list. Bear McCreary, the composer, outdid himself here, with a score worthy of a full-scale movie. The Numenor theme deserves special attention here. It's as memorable and inspiring as anything in Howard Shore's work (which was also incredible), and I'm glad they've continued to use sound to bring Middle Earth to life.

Yes! The music is good.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by warty goblin
Numenor is fine. At this point it's mostly an exercise in art design, but damn is it good art design.

I watched a clip of the arrival at Numenor, and I have to say the visuals were genuinely breathtaking. There’s a strong callback to Gondor, and the echo of the Argonath may be just a little too strong; but as you say the connection is plausible. Regardless, the sequence was superbly done, and my only regret was that I couldn’t watch it on a movie screen.

Unfortunately, as soon as it shifted to character dialogue the ethereal mood dropped like a broken brick. Galadriel’s attitude came across as spoiled and pointlessly insulting, and why she couldn’t bring herself to be civil, if only for a few minutes, is a mystery to me. It may be a choice, but I don’t think it’s an especially good choice.

My reaction is strongly colored by my impression that the person playing Galadriel just doesn’t seem to be a very good actor. She has no real presence: she sort of lightly glowers, but there’s no sense of depth or age, which should be immediately apparent when surrounded by humans. She should have a regal dignity, even when standing in her shift among strangers; yet she comes across as petty and trite.

If Galadriel is the central figure in the series—and the one which general audiences are most likely to remember from the movies—then they should have found someone exceptional to play her. From what I’ve seen, it doesn’t appear that they have.

Originally Posted by Atranen
I'll also add the music to the list. Bear McCreary, the composer, outdid himself here, with a score worthy of a full-scale movie.

Hard disagree here. I’ve been a fan of Bear McCreary ever since his phenomenal work on BSG, and he’s continued to impress on Outlander and other shows. So I actively sought out the music for Rings of Power, knowing it was more Bear McCreary and fully prepared to be immersed and transported.

Unfortunately, what I’ve heard of the music has been bland and disappointing. Galadriel’s theme in particular I found to be insipid, and while some of the other tracks have been serviceable, nothing really carries the depth and emotion that he’s delivered so well elsewhere.

If anyone has a favorite piece from this score, I’ll be happy to listen to it, but what I’ve heard so far has failed to impress.

[Sapphire Guard]

If I was reviewing this for a newspaper, it would be something like 2.5 stars, because it skates between below average and above average, averaging out at... average. I really did have to think about whether to watch or not, because I had low expectations from the marketing and I don't want to be the kind of person that hatewatches things, but it was obvious from the start that many of the reviews (positive and negative) were not going to be fair, so the only way I could get a fair perspective was to watch and see.

I'm not comfortable disliking something strongly if I haven't given it a fair shot. I got through three episodes of Resident Evil Netflix before I had to drop it. ROP isn't Resident Evil Netflix.

I have a good amount of creative differences with the writers, but on a mechanical level it is mostly okay? Galadriel is on an arc, the actress is doing what she is supposed to be doing. BUT I am disappointed on the story they chose, because on a mechanical writing level probably the easiest plot they could have written, because it is so much easier to write 'I'm right, why won't anyone listen to me?' than it is complex interactions of people with varying opinions, and also because this seems to be one of the only plots big budget stories are capable of writing for a female lead. 'Unlikeable' or 'relatable' is not a relevant metric for me, my concern is 'does it make sense for this character to be how she is.' And I don't quite think she works, they want to have her be both 'young brash warrior' and 'old hardened veteran' and those two characterisations clash. Elendil is a standout performer.

I'm not personally offended by the Harfoot accents, but I could see how this plot could go very bad places if done poorly and I don't think these creators have shown the delicate touch needed to pull that story off.

The Southlands story almost works, it's so close to greatness, it just slips up on small details and I have a personal dislike for

Spoiler

Show

'kill all the extras' stories.

Durin and Elrond is strong, but there has been very little of it so far. There's a lot of potential here, but they're slipping up a lot on small but important details.

[KorvinStarmast]

I

The Southlands story almost works, it's so close to greatness, it just slips up on small details and I have a personal dislike for

Spoiler

Show

'kill all the extras' stories.

It saves money on budget, though.

[TheSummoner]

I wanted to like it and wanted it to be good. As it is now, I'm just wanting to see if it can actually recover from the weak start and pick up. If I try to separate it from Tolkien and judge as though it were an entirely original fantasy series, that does help with some of the issues the show has, but it creates others. Thinking of it in those terms makes me wonder who exactly the target audience is. Tolkien fans are likely to be irritated or worse at the liberties the show takes with established lore and characters. Newcomers are likely lost or bored and the pacing certainly doesn't help.

We've got four major plot threads going on, and aside from Arondir's, I struggle to think of how I could summarize each in a way that would be interesting to someone whose never read the books or at least watched the films. Someone familiar with Tolkien could reasonably assume Galadriel's plot is about the fall of Numenor and Elrond's may eventually tie into the Balrog of Moria. The hobbits could go anywhere. To someone with no previous knowledge though, there's no visible hook after a full three hours of show. It's more of a series of events with no through line than a coherent story. Galadriel was hunting Sauron, but the king says not to do it and puts her on a boat but then she jumps off the boat and spent some time at sea and now she's in Numenor and they wont let her leave but it's ok because she found some information about Sauron there. and Elrond's friend wants to make a tower, so they're gonna ask the dwarfs to help, but the dwarves are mad at Elrond and then he breaks some rocks and says he's sorry and then has dinner with the dwarves after that.. Three episodes in without using outside material to guess, there's no indication of what the main conflict of each arc is supposed to be. The fact that to this point, there's no connection between the four independent plot threads also means that it takes four times as long for each to get where it's going.

They spent a boat load of money on the CGI and in places it shows (then there's the warg). I can't find much to criticize there, but it when looking at the full picture, it gives me a very Disney vibe of style over substance. Pretty visuals covering something utterly empty. The costuming has issues, but the worst of that is the armor, most of which has only been seen in promotional images so I don't think it's fair to critique that yet. The writing has been picked over in depth. No need to hit every point again, but there are a lot of things used to set up some sort of payoff later that make no sense when examined. The dialogue in particular is downright painful at times, with the attempts attempts to sound poetic just coming off as vapid purple prose meant to sound meaningful without having any substance. Characters have a tendency to explain things that they already know for the benefit of the audience.

And as so many others have said, Galadriel is insufferable. She acts arrogant and entitled in every scene she's in. Elrond is polite and happy to see to her, she's rude and makes demands. Halbrand helps her, she's rude and talks down on him for doing the exact same thing she did. She's brought before the most powerful person in Numenor, she gets into a... let's call it an ego-measuring contest. She's never punished for any of this and has yet to show any redeeming positive qualities. It's a pretty big problem when your main character is by far the least likeable one in the cast.

I don't think it's at all unreasonable to have expected far more. They're doing a prequel to one of the most beloved stories ever told and they've allotted an absolutely staggering budget to do it.

[factotum]

Its that the other parts of the world aren't primitive enough. Too much of the costumes and the architecture and the stage-props looks too much like 3rd age middle earth. Everything should be older. I think Numinor is a good example of that. It looks like 500s to 600s greece instead of 1300s europe. So it feels older. Too much of the southlands and elfland look like the PJ era props and builds.

This is the eternal issue with fantasy, unfortunately--you tend to have worlds where the actual progression of technology is largely frozen for thousands of years. Bear in mind that Orcrist and Glamdring are still the best swords around near the end of the Third Age, despite it being something like six thousand years since they were forged. In fact, Tolkien's theme often seems to be that things were better in the past and gradually get worse over time, so from that point of view, RoP fits perfectly.

[KorvinStarmast]

In fact, Tolkien's theme often seems to be that things were better in the past and gradually get worse over time, so from that point of view, RoP fits perfectly.

Yes, this point can't be emphasized enough in terms of Tolkien's structure of the Legendarium (although this theme is hardly original with him).
He's very much the Romantic, looking at the days of yore as better. Granted, some of this is informed by his Real Life frustration with how industrialization mars the landscape and countryside of England, but many bodies of myth and legend play on man fallen from previous greatness - it is a theme in a lot of different legendary styles and stories. A few examples, Gilgamesh goes from mortal to deity, Heracles was a demigod before it was all over, Brunhilde was a Valkyrie (not quite a mortal), the Sidhe and Tuatha de Dnaan are beyond mortal, etc)
Compared against those mundane mankind isn't quite as shiny.
One infers from Homer's stories that Helen of Troy was so beautiful that none will ever match her beauty. All of this greatness is what must be aspired to, or find inspiration in, during their own mundane and imperfect state of being (Aragorn being a decent example of this). And of course tied into all of this is "the fall of the great empire" theme: Atlantis under the waves, the Roman Empire Falling, Babylonian Empire Falling, the Khmer Empire's former greatness, and so on
"It was bigger, better and shinier back them" covers a lot of ground.

[Clertar]

So ... contrary views.

Is there anyone reading this who liked the Harfoot snippets? Or is a fan of the show in general?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

One here, happy with it and hoping that the show will deliver on the promises and grow in interest.

[truemane]

Yes, this point can't be emphasized enough in terms of Tolkien's structure of the Legendarium (although this theme is hardly original with him).
He's very much the Romantic, looking at the days of yore as better. Granted, some of this is informed by his Real Life frustration with how industrialization mars the landscape and countryside of England, but many bodies of myth and legend play on man fallen from previous greatness - it is a theme in a lot of different legendary styles and stories. A few examples, Gilgamesh goes from mortal to deity, Heracles was a demigod before it was all over, Brunhilde was a Valkyrie (not quite a mortal), the Sidhe and Tuatha de Dnaan are beyond mortal, etc)
Compared against those mundane mankind isn't quite as shiny.
One infers from Homer's stories that Helen of Troy was so beautiful that none will ever match her beauty. All of this greatness is what must be aspired to, or find inspiration in, during their own mundane and imperfect state of being (Aragorn being a decent example of this). And of course tied into all of this is "the fall of the great empire" theme: Atlantis under the waves, the Roman Empire Falling, Babylonian Empire Falling, the Khmer Empire's former greatness, and so on
"It was bigger, better and shinier back them" covers a lot of ground.

Death, taxes, and the kids these days: the only three constants.

[pendell]

Death, taxes, and the kids these days: the only three constants.

Seemed Relevant

Speaking as someone past the half-century mark, I find the constant grumbling of my peers about how things were better in their day to be tiresome in the extreme. Old people have been grumbling about young people since at least the Roman Republic. If it is the fault of young people that they think nothing happened before they, the pinnacle of human achievement, stepped on the stage, it is the fault of old people to remember the days when they were young as some ideal, as the haze of memory makes them forget all the problems that happened in those days.

Tolkien very much reads like a work written by an old person, and while I love the work it's one theme I don't care for.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Vinyadan]

One infers from Homer's stories that Helen of Troy was so beautiful that none will ever match her beauty.

The thing is, Homer was writing about an era already decayed from the greatness of its antecessors. Nestor says so indirectly: no Greek at Troy is as strong as the heroes of his youth. Decadence is always there in ancient myths, with the golden, silver, etc eras being the most egregious examples, and even the Epicureans believed that this world had already passed its akme and was in its disgregating phase.

[Tyndmyr]

Mostly I'm confused by why a lot if people in this thread seem like they really don't like the show, yet keep watching and talking about it. I'm genuinely baffled why somebody would do that, when they could spend time on something they actually like. Why would someone spend their leisure time knee deep in things they don't enjoy? I'm genuinely curious here, what's the upside? Weird internet clout chasing? Outright entertainment masochism? A strange enjoyment in being angry?

This has come up before, and the answer is simple, there is a social component to current media. When everyone is watching Lost, or Walking Dead, or Game of Thrones, it's the thing being talked about.

So the conversation'll come up again and again in various places where media is discussed. There's a bit of pressure to stay current, or at least to have an opinion if one doesn't wish to be left out of discussion.

There is also sometimes the hope that something merely has a rocky start and gets better later. Plenty of shows have had some patchy season ones that smoothed out later. How long before someone gives up on something and why is pretty subjective.

[Aedilred]

Galadriel is written as an arrogant pain in the ass, and I think that's pretty fine really. Is her behavior smart? No, but I emphatically do not subscribe to the "character is dumb -> plotholeook how smart I am for noticing" school of nerd criticism. She's written that way, it's a choice, it may turn into an interesting character arc. It hasn't yet, but TV character arcs are slower than movie arcs, that's supposed to be one of the advantages of the medium. She's neither book nor movie Galadriel, but as I've said, I've pretty much made my piece with this being none of those things.

I'm inclined to agree. I mean, "arrogant elves" is pretty much a tautology in fantasy, and this is Galadriel. Her father is a king in Aman; she knew Fëanor and Fingolfin; she counts members of the Maiar among her personal friends; she's fought alongside the Valar. She was already centuries old when the island on which Númenor stands was raised from the sea; she remembers the creation of the Sun. There aren't many named characters in Middle-Earth at this stage in its history who could really look her in the eye and call her a peer. Celebrimbor, yes, maybe Cirdan and Celeborn, and I can't think of any others. Even Gil-Galad is a relative stripling who's never set foot in the Undying Lands.

It is therefore unsurprising that she would be relatively unimpressed with humans, height of their civilisation or not, and consider herself superior to them, even to the point of appearing pointlessly antagonistic. Also, not like the Númenoreans covered themselves in glory here either. They didn't roll out the red carpet only for her to spit in their face. They made it pretty clear they weren't happy to see her, and while reciprocating with rudeness or contempt may not be diplomatic, it doesn't strike me as implausible.

That's not to say that the writing is necessarily brilliant and it doesn't help us sympathise with the character particularly, but I don't think her having a character flaw is a narrative problem in itself, especially when the existence of that flaw is entirely justified by her backstory. And as also pointed out, she is right about, well, everything so far.

[factotum]

just saw episode 4. Miriel's attitude is a bit more explicable now, although I still think they needed a stronger actress to play Galadriel. Meanwhile, regarding Adar:

Spoiler

Show

I don't know why he appears as a rather badly scarred Elf here since, in his guise as Annatar, Lord of Gifts, he was supposed to be surpassing fair. I suppose in this instance he's only really appearing before Orcs and doesn't need to put the full effort in...

[diplomancer]

Episode 4 was the first I actually enjoyed. I'd give it a 7.

Highpoints:
1- Elrond and Dúrin. Very good indeed. Tolkien-worthy.

Spoiler

Show

the scene where Elrond talks about his father almost made me cry, but then I've lost my father this year, after many years of not being able to visit him

2- no Harfoots and their inanities, useless capers, and hypocritical morals. Yay!

Good and bad. Arondir. His story is working, but

Spoiler

Show

the scene where the orcs give up on getting what they've been looking for for Morgoth knows how many years when it's 10 meters away because it's very sunny made no sense, specially since it was night just before

Low point- Galadriel, again. It's getting to the point where I am physically annoyed whenever she's on-screen. What a dumb mess.

[KorvinStarmast]

The thing is, Homer was writing about an era already decayed from the greatness of its antecessors. Nestor says so indirectly: no Greek at Troy is as strong as the heroes of his youth. Decadence is always there in ancient myths, with the golden, silver, etc eras being the most egregious examples, and even the Epicureans believed that this world had already passed its akme and was in its disgregating phase.

Declining and falling, entropy, The Fall, etc ...

I'm inclined to agree. I mean, "arrogant elves" is pretty much a tautology in fantasy, and this is Galadriel. Her father is a king in Aman; she knew Feanor and Fingolfin; she counts members of the Maiar among her personal friends; she's fought alongside the Valar. She was already centuries old when the island on which Numenor stands was raised from the sea; she remembers the creation of the Sun. There aren't many named characters in Middle-Earth at this stage in its history who could really look her in the eye and call her a peer. Celebrimbor, yes, maybe Cirdan and Celeborn, and I can't think of any others. Even Gil-Galad is a relative stripling who's never set foot in the Undying Lands.

And t hen there's the arrogance of Thranduil in The Hobbit. And Thingol in Doriath.

Spoiler: Maybe Thingol earned his right to be smug

Show

(Then again, he has earned the right to be at least somewhat arrogant and smug. An angel (maia) fell in love with him, so when he says "Chicks dig me" he's making an understatement!)

They made it pretty clear they weren't happy to see her, and while reciprocating with rudeness or contempt may not be diplomatic, it doesn't strike me as implausible.

The problem is with style. Her condescension could be a lot classier, and more in keeping with the Galadriel we saw in LoTR, the movie, not an angry teenager. The premise is solid, as you note, but the writing is bad and the direction is worse. I think with better direction the actress could present this very differently.

And as also pointed out, she is right about, well, everything so far.

Yes.

Episode 4 was the first I actually enjoyed. I'd give it a 7.

Highpoints:
1- Elrond and Dúrin. Very good indeed. Tolkien-worthy.

Spoiler

Show

the scene where Elrond talks about his father almost made me cry, but then I've lost my father this year, after many years of not being able to visit him

2- no Harfoots and their inanities, useless capers, and hypocritical morals. Yay!

Good and bad. Arondir. His story is working, but

Spoiler

Show

the scene where the orcs give up on getting what they've been looking for for Morgoth knows how many years when it's 10 meters away because it's very sunny made no sense, specially since it was night just before

Low point- Galadriel, again. It's getting to the point where I am physically annoyed whenever she's on-screen. What a dumb mess.

I watched the football game last night on Amazon Prime, will see the episode tonight.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by TheSummoner
Thinking of it in those terms makes me wonder who exactly the target audience is. Tolkien fans are likely to be irritated or worse at the liberties the show takes with established lore and characters. Newcomers are likely lost or bored and the pacing certainly doesn't help.

My best guess is they’re aiming for the casual fantasy viewer—someone who watched the movies, but hasn’t read the Silmarillion and doesn’t have any deep attachment to Middle-Earth history.

As noted above, it’s best viewed as generic fantasy, and that seems to be what they were aiming for. From what I can tell, it’s the equivalent of the old Darrell K. Sweet covers for fantasy novels, where you knew you were getting a fun pseudo-medieval fantasy tale, but nothing that merited a really good Michael Whelan cover.

Originally Posted by Aedilred
…this is Galadriel.

…There aren't many named characters in Middle-Earth at this stage in its history who could really look her in the eye and call her a peer.

All this is true of the character, but none of it is conveyed by the individual playing her.

Originally Posted by Aedilred
It is therefore unsurprising that she would be relatively unimpressed with humans, height of their civilisation or not, and consider herself superior to them, even to the point of appearing pointlessly antagonistic.

I’m with you until the last phrase. Galadriel may be unimpressed with mortal men, but she should surely understand that a few moments of calm dialogue will serve her better than unthinking hostility—especially when those few moments are set in the context of thousands of years of life. She can’t have lived so long without understanding that.

[Divayth Fyr]

Meanwhile, regarding Adar:

Spoiler

Show

I don't know why he appears as a rather badly scarred Elf here since, in his guise as Annatar, Lord of Gifts, he was supposed to be surpassing fair. I suppose in this instance he's only really appearing before Orcs and doesn't need to put the full effort in...

Spoiler

Show

Ah, but why assume Adar is Sauron?

And as also pointed out, she is right about, well, everything so far.

Indeed. Sometimes in the dumbest way possible (I pursued this symbol for centuries/millenia, only now I noticed it is a map. But I was right it is important!).

[DavidSh]

I am hoping without any real expectation that, somewhere down the road, we meet a little person who doesn't fit with the Harfoots as presented, and we found out that he or she is a Fallohide. Or maybe a Stoor. Just a nod to Concerning Hobbits.

[diplomancer]

I’m with you until the last phrase. Galadriel may be unimpressed with mortal men, but she should surely understand that a few moments of calm dialogue will serve her better than unthinking hostility—especially when those few moments are set in the context of thousands of years of life. She can’t have lived so long without understanding that.

Spoiler

Show

the scene with Halbarad in prison highlight just how DUMB this Bizarro-Galadriel is

[Wintermoot]

Indeed. Sometimes in the dumbest way possible (I pursued this symbol for centuries/millenia, only now I noticed it is a map. But I was right it is important!).

Out of curiosity, did you likewise complain about Gandalf needing to spend 80 odd years researching about the strange ring that Bilbo found on the road to mount doom before figuring out it was the one ring and not just any old magic ring... even though the other rings are all accounted for between the nazgul, him Galadriel and Elrond? I mean, that's pretty sad that Galdalf the grey couldn't figure out what ring it was and had to spend 80 years trawling through the archives at Minas Tirith to find documentation to the effect.

The symbol being a map is a perfectly fine mechanism by these show creators, but if it -is- stupid (your view, not mine) then it's on the writers not the character. Nobody noticed it was a map, not just Galadriel. And it isn't any worse than Gandalf and the ring and no one complains about that for some reason.

The more you and others complain about the Galadriel character the more I'm starting to understand and respect what they are going for with this show really.

You complain about her complete lack of decorum and tact and diplomatic ability and I suddenly realize that THIS Galadriel is battle-damaged, PTSD afflicted on an epic level. For thousands of years she has been fighting in unceasing war against an unstoppable foe and barely surviving assault after assault watching kingdoms rise and fall around her. Her ability to deal with anything other than with the edge of a sword has understandably atrophied, leaving her understandably brusque and incapable of niceties. The elves would never send her to be a diplomat and for good reason. No wonder Gil-Galad wanted to send her off to her eternal reward. To his perspective, she is damaged beyond recall, at least by any powers or balms in his domain.

You expect her to be able to turn all that off? Have you tried to even imagine the reality that has forged this character? This character is a coiled spring always on the edge of exploding. A wary cat prowling the hills of the night looking for prey while realizing she is someone else's prey.

Suddenly, I realize that they are doing an excellent job portraying the character they are trying to portray. Just not the character you think they should be portraying.

A character that needs to heal before she can become the Galadriel we know she does become.

And, based on my prior experiences, I would guess that if they DID portray her as undamaged, a perfect diplomat, courteous and ennobled, able to hold sway in court as well as on the battlefield, able to see through any code, any riddle with a scholar's ease, I would be seeing complaints about her being a Mary-Sue, being too perfect at everything this does.