The Rings of Power: on the river in Tolkien's Second Age of Middle Earth

[pendell]

Out of curiosity, did you likewise complain about Gandalf needing to spend 80 odd years researching about the strange ring that Bilbo found on the road to mount doom before figuring out it was the one ring and not just any old magic ring... even though the other rings are all accounted for between the nazgul, him Galadriel and Elrond? I mean, that's pretty sad that Galdalf the grey couldn't figure out what ring it was and had to spend 80 years trawling through the archives at Minas Tirith to find documentation to the effect.

I'm not entirely sure that is true. There were also many lesser rings. As I read it, it wasn't until much later in the story that Gandalf noticed Bilbo's long life and realized that this ring was a Great Ring and not one of the many, many trifles which were running around the world at the time. When he started to suspect, Sauron allayed his suspicions ... right up to the point of the Birthday Party, when Gandalf finally had confirmation that something dark and sinister was at work.

Much of the next several years is spent by Gandalf researching the rings. While we later know "the nine and the seven .. had each their proper gem" I don't think even Gandalf necessarily knew this at that point in the story .. or had forgotten it's importance. It may be he knew a lot less about ringlore at this point in the story than he will know by the time of the Council of Elrond. He spends several decades going through texts of Gondor and remembering everything he can of Saruman's lectures on the subject, looking both to eliminate possibilities and to find confirming evidence. A large part of his research is to question Gollum, a star witness, and he takes on Aragorn as a TA for that part of the project. By the time Aragorn has finally succeeded in tracking him down Gandalf has already found another test which would positively confirm the ring's identity.

At The Council of Elrond, We are told "The nine and the seven are accounted for" -- it may be that this was not fully known at the time of the birthday party, and a large part of gandalf's work was performing that very accounting, at least from the viewpoint of the Council. Sauron knew already, of course, but he wasn't about to let Gandalf into his library.

The Council of Elrond, then, is Gandalf's dissertation of original research where he lays out the fruit of decades of research: What the rings are, how the One Ring may be identified, and at last confirming evidence that this is THE Ring. It's a bit too bad Middle-Earth didn't have universities; Gandalf would have fit in well at one after the war.

Back to the original point, I'm not complaining either about Gandalf's research then or about Galadriel now. All times in Middle-Earth seem unnaturally lengthened in any event.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

Been thinking about the Numenorean plotline in episode 4 and I confess something has me puzzled:

Spoiler

Show

We now know that there is a prediction, presented by a Palantir, that Numenor will be drowned after the arrival of an elf. It's a little bit unclear whether the prediction specifically shows Galadriel as said Elf or if any elf would do--certainly the latter would explain their paranoia against Elves. Anyway, Miriel tries to bypass this by banishing Galadriel back to her homeland, but when she does, the blossom of the White Tree starts falling, considered to be a sign "the Tears of the Valar" indicating you messed up real bad, so instead she agrees to send armies to fight Sauron in Middle-Earth.

Now, we know what happens next from the published Akallabeth--they capture Sauron and return him to Numenor, whereupon he corrupts the hell out of their leadership and encourages them to go in force to Valinor, breaking the Ban of the Valar and leading to Numenor's destruction.So, taken at face value, this sequence of events implies that's what the Valar *want* to happen since their Tears from the tree are what triggers it all? That seems extremely odd to me.

Oh, and @Divayth Fyr:

Spoiler

Show

Who the heck else could Adar be?

[ecarden]

Been thinking about the Numenorean plotline in episode 4 and I confess something has me puzzled:

Spoiler

Show

We now know that there is a prediction, presented by a Palantir, that Numenor will be drowned after the arrival of an elf. It's a little bit unclear whether the prediction specifically shows Galadriel as said Elf or if any elf would do--certainly the latter would explain their paranoia against Elves. Anyway, Miriel tries to bypass this by banishing Galadriel back to her homeland, but when she does, the blossom of the White Tree starts falling, considered to be a sign "the Tears of the Valar" indicating you messed up real bad, so instead she agrees to send armies to fight Sauron in Middle-Earth.

Now, we know what happens next from the published Akallabeth--they capture Sauron and return him to Numenor, whereupon he corrupts the hell out of their leadership and encourages them to go in force to Valinor, breaking the Ban of the Valar and leading to Numenor's destruction.So, taken at face value, this sequence of events implies that's what the Valar *want* to happen since their Tears from the tree are what triggers it all? That seems extremely odd to me.

So, I think the implication is

Spoiler

Show

that there are several routes to potential destruction (and at least presumably some which lead elsewhere). Deciding to hide on their island and turn their back on the elves and men of Middle Earth would be one way. Their eventual actual fate is another, but they weren't certain to follow that path at any point until they did.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, and @Divayth Fyr:

Spoiler

Show

Who the heck else could Adar be?

Honest answer? besides the obvious, he could be Maglor.
WTF, Korvin? You may well ask, but here's the deal.

At the end of the first age, Eonwe's mercy allowed Maglor to possess one of the last two Silmarils. One was taken into the earth by his brother, but he threw his into the sea, and then wandered for the rest of his life singing songs by the sea. He did not seek redemption, nor forgiveness, from the Valar (any more than Sauron did even though Eonwe offered Sauron that chance)
Maglor had remained true to the oath that earned him the ban of the Valar, and when he had the Silmaril in his hand, he discovered that his oath was naught but a path to loss and pain.

Bitter? Yeah, he might be bitter.
How about 2500 years of bitter?

The whole of the Second Age he, being a Noldor, an immortal elf, wandered the coastlines of Middle Earth singing (??) and with every rising of the sun knew that he was still unforgiven.

That might lead him, as an immortal, to try to become worshipped by the mortal and lesser beings.
Arrogance the sons of Feanor had in plenty.
Adan might be Maglor. Yeah, it's a long shot, but it's within the realm of the possible.

[Divayth Fyr]

Out of curiosity, did you likewise complain about Gandalf needing to spend 80 odd years researching about the strange ring that Bilbo found on the road to mount doom before figuring out it was the one ring and not just any old magic ring... even though the other rings are all accounted for between the nazgul, him Galadriel and Elrond? I mean, that's pretty sad that Galdalf the grey couldn't figure out what ring it was and had to spend 80 years trawling through the archives at Minas Tirith to find documentation to the effect.

The Gandalf who admonished himself both to Frodo and at Elrond's Council as to how he was gravely mistaken? Sure, it wasn't exactly his best moment. On the other hand, at that point he had no reason to doubt Saruman's word and expertise on the matter, and Saruman did state as fact the Ring was lost to everyone, washed away to the seas.

And, based on my prior experiences, I would guess that if they DID portray her as undamaged, a perfect diplomat, courteous and ennobled, able to hold sway in court as well as on the battlefield, able to see through any code, any riddle with a scholar's ease, I would be seeing complaints about her being a Mary-Sue, being too perfect at everything this does.

You know, there is plenty of wiggle room between... this and "perfect mary sue".

Spoiler

Show

Who the heck else could Adar be?

Someone made wholecloth for the show. We have plenty of such characters after all ;)

And it almost feels like they're going with

Spoiler

Show

Halbrandt

being Sauron. So many little things that would fit that theory...

Spoiler

Show

Just wait for him to reveal himself in Ep 8, tell Galadriel "You never saw this coming" and run away, triggering her supposed arc :D

[diplomancer]

Honest answer? besides the obvious, he could be Maglor.
WTF, Korvin? You may well ask, but here's the deal.

At the end of the first age, Eonwe's mercy allowed Maglor to possess one of the last two Silmarils. One was taken into the earth by his brother, but he threw his into the sea, and then wandered for the rest of his life singing songs by the sea. He did not seek redemption, nor forgiveness, from the Valar (any more than Sauron did even though Eonwe offered Sauron that chance)
Maglor had remained true to the oath that earned him the ban of the Valar, and when he had the Silmaril in his hand, he discovered that his oath was naught but a path to loss and pain.

Bitter? Yeah, he might be bitter.
How about 2500 years of bitter?

The whole of the Second Age he, being a Noldor, an immortal elf, wandered the coastlines of Middle Earth singing (??) and with every rising of the sun knew that he was still unforgiven.

That might lead him, as an immortal, to try to become worshipped by the mortal and lesser beings.
Arrogance the sons of Feanor had in plenty.
Adan might be Maglor. Yeah, it's a long shot, but it's within the realm of the possible.

Interesting theory, but very unlikely. Remember, they don't have rights to the Silmarillion, though they can get bits and pieces on an ad hoc basis from the Tolkien state, specially if it is to explain things ocurring in the Second Age. But that would be kinda of a major thing. Maglor doesn't appear at all in the LotR appendices.

[TheSummoner]

My best guess is they’re aiming for the casual fantasy viewer—someone who watched the movies, but hasn’t read the Silmarillion and doesn’t have any deep attachment to Middle-Earth history.

As noted above, it’s best viewed as generic fantasy, and that seems to be what they were aiming for. From what I can tell, it’s the equivalent of the old Darrell K. Sweet covers for fantasy novels, where you knew you were getting a fun pseudo-medieval fantasy tale, but nothing that merited a really good Michael Whelan cover.

If it's for the casual viewer, they don't explain anywhere near enough for them. In episode 2, I think it was they reference Faenor and the Silmarils, but it's a rather casual mention. In 4, Earendil is mentioned. A casual viewer will have no clue what any of this is about. It's not really necessary for the plot of show and is little more than a pair of member berries for the people who do know, but for those who don't, it adds nothing and would just be unexplained and confusing.

Re: Adar

Spoiler

Show

He's a red herring and season 1 villain.

The options for Sauron are Halbrand, Adar, and something else. If it's Halbrand or Adar, the other is a red herring. If it's something else, both are.

Halbrand is the guy whose very first line in the show is that appearances can be decieving, the guy whose shown an interest in smithing, and the guy whose done the very Sauron-like tactic of winning over some guys who were about to kick his teeth in by buying them drinks. Then, after they realized he stole from them and confronted him, he took them down effortlessly. If he is Sauron, this all checks out. If he's not, then they're being pretty heavy handed trying to lead you to think he is and it doesn't really follow that he'd be able to beat a group of guys just by himself (not that I'd put that last one past these writers)

Adar on the other hand is just shown leading some orcs. That doesn't indicate Sauron specifically, just that he's a bad guy.

Out of curiosity, did you likewise complain about Gandalf needing to spend 80 odd years researching about the strange ring that Bilbo found on the road to mount doom before figuring out it was the one ring and not just any old magic ring... even though the other rings are all accounted for between the nazgul, him Galadriel and Elrond? I mean, that's pretty sad that Galdalf the grey couldn't figure out what ring it was and had to spend 80 years trawling through the archives at Minas Tirith to find documentation to the effect.

The symbol being a map is a perfectly fine mechanism by these show creators, but if it -is- stupid (your view, not mine) then it's on the writers not the character. Nobody noticed it was a map, not just Galadriel. And it isn't any worse than Gandalf and the ring and no one complains about that for some reason.

Whataboutism and a false equivalence. Gandalf did his research off-screen and though we're not given specifics, it's not that hard to imagine that research into magic might be a bit more involved than turn the symbol sideways and it look at a map (that conveniently was right there). The mechanism is stupid and yes, that was on the writers. Everything with the way the characters and plot is written ultimately is. Them being at fault for her learning things in the dumbest and most nonsensical way possible doesn't make her way of learning those things any less dumb or nonsensical.

The more you and others complain about the Galadriel character the more I'm starting to understand and respect what they are going for with this show really.

You complain about her complete lack of decorum and tact and diplomatic ability and I suddenly realize that THIS Galadriel is battle-damaged, PTSD afflicted on an epic level. For thousands of years she has been fighting in unceasing war against an unstoppable foe and barely surviving assault after assault watching kingdoms rise and fall around her. Her ability to deal with anything other than with the edge of a sword has understandably atrophied, leaving her understandably brusque and incapable of niceties. The elves would never send her to be a diplomat and for good reason. No wonder Gil-Galad wanted to send her off to her eternal reward. To his perspective, she is damaged beyond recall, at least by any powers or balms in his domain.

You expect her to be able to turn all that off? Have you tried to even imagine the reality that has forged this character? This character is a coiled spring always on the edge of exploding. A wary cat prowling the hills of the night looking for prey while realizing she is someone else's prey.

Suddenly, I realize that they are doing an excellent job portraying the character they are trying to portray. Just not the character you think they should be portraying.

A character that needs to heal before she can become the Galadriel we know she does become.

Could you support this interpretation with evidence from the show? Because to me it seems like a big load of headcanon. Her "unceasing war against an unstoppable foe," for example is directly contradicted by the elves she's commanding in the first episode saying that it's been years since they've even come across an orc and the belief of everyone around her that the unstoppable foe is long gone.

And, based on my prior experiences, I would guess that if they DID portray her as undamaged, a perfect diplomat, courteous and ennobled, able to hold sway in court as well as on the battlefield, able to see through any code, any riddle with a scholar's ease, I would be seeing complaints about her being a Mary-Sue, being too perfect at everything this does.

You think she's not? To get this out of the way, people seem to quibble over what makes a Mary Sue, so I'll establish some conditions, let me know if you disagree with them. A definition I've seen used is that a normal character acts in accordance to what is happening in the course of the plot, but for a Mary Sue, the plot moves in accordance to their actions and desires. That's not bad, but it's also a bit hard to hammer down what qualifies, so I personally like to look at the amount of adversity the character faces. Are they challenged? Do they struggle? Do they suffer? Do they fail and make mistakes and do their choices and mistakes have meaningful consequences? Now let's look at Galadriel thus far:

• As part of the hunt for Sauron, she and her men climb an ice wall. They seem to have some difficulty with it, but for her it's so easy that she does using a dagger.
• They encounter a troll. The troll swats aside the other elves, but she manages to slay it effortlessly. These other elves who couldn't handle a troll were supposed to be hunting Sauron incidentally.
• She doesn't want to go to the Undying Lands, so she jumps off the boat into the ocean. Anyone else would drown, but there's a convenient raft and later a convenient boat.
• In Numenor, a place where she has no power, she is immediately confrontational with Miriel, the person with the most power. No consequences.
• She threatens to murder Elendil after he catches her sneaking around. No consequences. In fact, he takes her to where the next clue about Sauron falls rather easily into her hands.

Spoiler: Episode 4

Show

• She mouths off to Miriel again. Actually imprisoned for it this time. Actual consequences? Nah. While unarmed, she defeats several armed guards and escapes easily.
• After escaping imprisonment, she breaks into the bedridden king's chamber. She should be executed for this.
• She demands the queen of a foreign land who she has been nothing but rude to give her an army. She is given one.

The only major obstacle Galadriel has faced up to this point is that no one believes her that Sauron is still out there. In other words that everyone around her is just too stupid to see what she knows intuitively (remember, she knew that Sauron's symbol was something for the orcs to follow before she had any indication it was a map) and is right about. Writing other characters to be stupid and incompetent does not make the one character who isn't look clever or competent, it just calls into question how clever and competent the writer is.

For contrast, Arondir. He goes hunting for orcs and gets captured. He tries to escape and fails. His friends are killed as a result of the escape attempt. He's got plot armor for certain (The orcs would've killed him after the escape attempt if he didn't), but he definitely fails and he definitely struggles. There are definitely consequences when he fails.

Now, no one is saying Galadriel should be a perfect diplomat, they're saying she shouldn't be an entitled brat. She should show some tact, realize that she has absolutely zero authority in Numenor, and make her case without just demanding she gets what she wants. And if she still isn't given it, all the better. She should fail. She should be challenged. She should struggle. And most importantly, she should have to work to overcome those failures, challenges, and struggles.

I'm inclined to agree. I mean, "arrogant elves" is pretty much a tautology in fantasy, and this is Galadriel. Her father is a king in Aman; she knew Fëanor and Fingolfin; she counts members of the Maiar among her personal friends; she's fought alongside the Valar. She was already centuries old when the island on which Númenor stands was raised from the sea; she remembers the creation of the Sun. There aren't many named characters in Middle-Earth at this stage in its history who could really look her in the eye and call her a peer. Celebrimbor, yes, maybe Cirdan and Celeborn, and I can't think of any others. Even Gil-Galad is a relative stripling who's never set foot in the Undying Lands.

It is therefore unsurprising that she would be relatively unimpressed with humans, height of their civilisation or not, and consider herself superior to them, even to the point of appearing pointlessly antagonistic. Also, not like the Númenoreans covered themselves in glory here either. They didn't roll out the red carpet only for her to spit in their face. They made it pretty clear they weren't happy to see her, and while reciprocating with rudeness or contempt may not be diplomatic, it doesn't strike me as implausible.

I could see this working if she actually acted like someone with the centuries of experience and knowledge that her character should have rather than as KorvinStarmast put it, like an angry teenager. Haughty and superior rather than demanding and entitled. The impression she could give is that she's always in control even when she's not. Instead, the impression she gives is that she can't even control her temper. Maybe it's the tempest inside her.

[factotum]

I could see this working if she actually acted like someone with the centuries of experience and knowledge that her character should have rather than as KorvinStarmast put it, like an angry teenager. Haughty and superior rather than demanding and entitled.

Again, I think that particular problem comes down to the actress rather than the writing. If they'd got someone in the role with appropriate acting chops and screen presence they could have pulled it off.

[EDIT] By the way, guys, I completely missed this in the actual episode but the Queen's adviser all dressed in blue? His name is

Spoiler

Show

Pharazon

which is pretty darned significant!

[Divayth Fyr]

Again, I think that particular problem comes down to the actress rather than the writing. If they'd got someone in the role with appropriate acting chops and screen presence they could have pulled it off.

I dunno how big your acting chops would need to be to salvage the tempest in me line...

By the way, guys, I completely missed this in the actual episode but the Queen's adviser all dressed in blue? His name is

Spoiler

Show

Pharazon

which is pretty darned significant!

Slowpoke.jpg

And knowing that, consider the scene in prison, where a certain character advises him...

[TheSummoner]

A certain character whose first line is about looks being deceiving, whose shown an interest in smiting, and will probably be spending episode 5 perusing jewelry stores and trying on rings.

Again, I think that particular problem comes down to the actress rather than the writing. If they'd got someone in the role with appropriate acting chops and screen presence they could have pulled it off.

In general, I'm far more inclined to blame writers and producers than actors. They're the ones telling her what to say and giving her direction.

[diplomancer]

I believe the writer's inspiration for Bizarro Galadriel is Joan of Arc. Now, forum rules don't let me go too deep into Joan's story, but, whatever else is true about her, she was, in fact, a human teenager, so her acting like a human teenager, extraordinary as she might have been, does not raise eyebrows. Galadriel, Bizarro or True, is not a teenager, and it simply does not work.

[EDIT] By the way, guys, I completely missed this in the actual episode but the Queen's adviser all dressed in blue? His name is

Spoiler

Show

Pharazon

which is pretty darned significant!

And weird, or at least, opposed to the lore, as

Spoiler

Show

he did not get that name before he became king

Quick comment on Gandalf's errors:
1-17 years, not 80. Gandalf's portfolio simply wasn't the Rings, and Saruman, the expert, had assured him that the One was lost for ever. During those years, Gandalf was busy with something just as important; tutoring Aragorn.
2- yes, AFTER Bilbo's farewell party, Gandalf gives his undivided attention to the question, and even then he's starting from a false point, given to him by Saruman. He spent most of that time looking for Gollum, not exactly an easy thing to do.
3- he finally remembered Saruman's specific words about the Rings of Power (spoken perhaps hundreds of years before, not surprising that he did not remember them at once), and went to Minas Tirith to do research. We don't know exactly how long that took, but probably not too long.
4- he then goes back to the Shire to do the final test, but already expecting the answer.
5- even with all the delays, what really put the quest in danger was Saruman's betrayal and Butterbur's carelessness. Otherwise, the Ring would have easily gotten to Rivendell before, and it's not like they could sneak the Ring into Mordor before Sauron was ready to start the war and was busy with its execution.

[KorvinStarmast]

but nothing that merited a really good Michael Whelan cover.

nice illustration of your point.

All this is true of the character, but none of it is conveyed by the individual playing her.

And that's what gets at me. We are about 3000 years into the Second Age, Galadriel has been alive for the whole second age, and she also lived with a Maia named Melian who taught her the making of Lembas, which is apparently a rare gift reserved for royalty. She's had centuries of training on how to behave at court. She's been a high ranking officer in the service of High King Gil-Galad for the whole Second Age - she's had practice. This is a person who should know how to push and to pull, and how to move sideways, in that environment as a matter of deep experience.
BUT
As I review the Second Age in the Appendices, I see this:

SA 32 Numenor founded.
SA 442 Elros dies
SA 600 Numenorean ships appear off the coast of Middle Earth
SA 1000 Sauron realizes Numenor is a threat, builds Barad Dur
SA 1200 Gil Galad rejects Sauron (in fair guise) and Celebrimbor accepts him in Eregion
Numenoreans make permanent havens
SA 1693 War of Elves and Sauron begins
SA 1700 Tar Minastier sends forces to Middle Earth to support the elves, Sauron Defeated, retreats to the East, spreads influence East
SA 1800 Numenor Establishes dominions on the coats, shadow falls on Numenor. This is about the time when Eldar may not be as welcome in Numenor.
SA 2251 Rebellion in Numenor, Division between Kings Men and Faithful. {Elves probably only come to the West of Numenor}.
SA 2899 Ar-Adhunakor is king, they no longer use elven names (until Tar Palantir), and the Eldar no longer come to Numenor. {that's a 600 year downhill slide in a relationship}

She was around for the war in the late 1600's of SA, where Men and elves defeated Sauron and save Lindon from being conquered. She watches 1100 years of change, all of it negative, to the point that we find elves no longer coming to nor welcome in Numenor in 2899. That estrangement has lasted 400 years.
(If they are respecting the time line at all which they cannot be since Celebrimbor is just now preparing to make his rings).

Her bitterness is understandable, but given her age and alleged wisdom, how she's handling it is appalling, and I blame the writing. Yes, they have compressed and monkeyed a bit with the above time line, but she's been at this 'highly respected official in service of the high king' position for centuries, even a couple of millenia. She should be able to handle herself in court, and not have to rely on the wit and wiles of a mortal man / fellow prisoner to grok how to read people in court and how to deal with them.

Or, we write it all off to general elven arrogance which leaves Elrond as a bit of a cypher. Not a satisfying take.

PTSD afflicted on an epic level.

Uh, maybe? She's had centuries to cope with this. All of the elves suffer from this to one extent or another; are they all as jerky about it? No.
When Gil-Galad exiles her to the undying lands (reward? Riiiiiiiiight) Where The Heck Is Her Husband Celeborn? (Don't get me started on this one, really).

Interesting theory, but very unlikely. Remember, they don't have rights to the Silmarillion, though they can get bits and pieces on an ad hoc basis from the Tolkien state, specially if it is to explain things ocurring in the Second Age. But that would be kinda of a major thing. Maglor doesn't appear at all in the LotR appendices.

And beyond that, if you look at Adar's hands,

Spoiler: Take a second look when he speaks with Andirion

Show

one if bare flesh and the other is in a dark gauntlet. Either Maglors burned hand from the simlaril's flame, or, more likely, a foreshadowing of Sauron's gauntlet in the opening of the FoTR movie.

Again, I think that particular problem comes down to the actress rather than the writing.

[EDIT] By the way, guys, I completely missed this in the actual episode but the Queen's adviser all dressed in blue?

I picked up on the Chancellor's name during the first scene in the courtroom. Yes, I am well steeped in the lore.
OK, where is Celeborn in all of this?
Obviously, the writers have her being single, and she'll meet Celeborn after this, and go off to become queen in Lorien.

Spoiler: arrgh they hate the lore

Show

Amroth and Nimrodel be damned, apparently!

So here is what I want to see in the next episode, given how they have gone 'round the bend on Galadriel.

Spoiler: I mean, if they are gonna go off the rails, go off the rails!

Show

Scene opens:
The ship sails off, leading the Numenorean formation, heading east towards Middle Earth. Galadriel gazes back at Numenor as the mountain peaks slowly recede below the horizon. She is then seen sitting thoughtfully under the stars for a while. As the scene shifts to just before sunrise, she heads aft and knocks on the door of Captain Elendil. She enters, without awaiting a response.
We see Captain Elendil on his bunk, waking up, and he gets up on an elbow with his eyes wide in surprise. (Yes, a blanket covers most of his body).
"Lady Galadriel, this is an unexpected visit. Is there danger approaching?"
Galadriel closes the door and you hear the latch shut.
She regards him with that piercing gaze and says very matter-of-factly (subtle this one is not)
"I hear the whisper of Ulmo's voice on the breeze. The motion of your ship, as it sails on the ocean, has awakened in me feelings I've not had for decades. The rhythm reminds me that I've not been intimate with anyone for over two hundred years." He starts, somewhat puzzled look on his face.
"You have lost your wife, and no one has shared your bed since then. I can see the sadness, the unhappiness, in your eyes even when you smile."
She drops her shift/dress/whatever that thing is. (The view is from the back, from the top of her hips upwards, mostly that long golden hair). You see Elendil's eyes get a bit wider; he is speechless.
She moves gracefully forward and sits sideways on his bunk; you at this point see her from the shoulders up, as she lays her hand on his cheek, smiles and looks into his eyes
"Let us open ourselves to the motion of the ocean, that it may bring us both respite from our suffering, from our feelings of loneliness."
He returns her smile and places his hand on hers, and says "The sea is always right"
Scene fades as they begin to kiss.
Yes, Elendil really means "Elf Friend, With Benefits.

Yes, I know they won't do this, as it's not GoT and it doesn't fit the tone of the show so far. But heck, maybe that's another source of her frustration.

[Divayth Fyr]

And that's what gets at me. We are about 3000 years into the Second Age

With the time twisting they're doing, we don't really know where in the Second Age we are. They could have shifted the Forging of the Rings to the time of the Fall of Numenor (which would give this number), or they could have shifted the Fall to the time of the Forging (so, halfway there basically) or it could be anything in between. Unless I missed something where they did mention which idea is the one they're going with.

Uh, maybe? She's had centuries to cope with this. All of the elves suffer from this to one extent or another; are they all as jerky about it? No.

Bonus point for her focus being "my brother is dead. I need to carry on his work". She can spend all the time she wants with her brother - he probably already left the Halls and is living the good life in Valinor. The one elf who truly has reasons to keep mourning their sibling is Elrond.

[KorvinStarmast]

With the time twisting they're doing, we don't really know where in the Second Age we are. They could have shifted the Forging of the Rings to the time of the Fall of Numenor (which would give this number), or they could have shifted the Fall to the time of the Forging (so, halfway there basically) or it could be anything in between. Unless I missed something where they did mention which idea is the one they're going with.

Yeah, I guess we'll get a better idea of what they are doing with the time line as the episodes unfold. For me it's quite disorienting.

[factotum]

The one elf who truly has reasons to keep mourning their sibling is Elrond.

The bit in episode 4 where he talks about never being able to speak to his father again (Earendil) was actually well done and quite poignant.

[KorvinStarmast]

The bit in episode 4 where he talks about never being able to speak to his father again (Earendil) was actually well done and quite poignant.

Ep 4 summary:
Rock singing: liked it a lot.
Elrond and Durin: much better
Durin and his Dad: OK.
Queen Miriel: Working nicely, she carries the air of queen regent well, not quite sure what they are doing with the plot here
Miriel's Dad; they could have gotten more out of that.
Palantir scene: Hmmm, recycle of a different scene
Pharazon's politicking: well done
Isildur: not sure why they are making one of the great heroes of the Edain begin as a whinging little twerp. If they intend to annoy the audience, they are succeeding
The boy: OK, boldness is good; suspension of disbelief was the bungee chord of disbelief as regards the search by the orcs, but OK.
No harfoot silliness: very OK
Guy tries to pick up girl: worked well enough, but nothing to write home about
Halbrand: man-splaining how to handle people in court to someone who is a couple of thousand years old. The scene would work better if Galadriel were a 15 year old princess, so this is that bad writing doing collateral damage to a different scene
Galadriel Super Ninja versus four guards: uh, OK, fine. Numenor will fall for a variety of reasons, and the incompetence of their soldiers may figure into it.
Scenes with Adar: OK, a few surprises.
The battle in the woods: that felt oddly paced

[Sapphire Guard]

Maglor is a very interesting theory I haven't seen before, they could do a lot with that, but I don't think they could do it justice in the four remaining episodes even if they had the rights. It's such a great idea that the only way to do it justice would be in a separate show dedicated to it, not where he's warm up villain while we wait for Sauron to reveal himself.

Honestly I don't think eight episodes is enough for the story they're trying to tell as it is. We're halfway now. They're referencing the Silmarillion lore much more than I expected. I thought they wouldn't be able to reference the Vala at all, but they come up a fair amount.

There's not really much to say about the new episode, it's slowly going somewhere. Elendil, Elrond, and Halbrand are the strongest performers.

I think Morfydd Clark is fine, she just has two conflicting characterisations that can't be reconciled,.

I want to know how the garrison in the elf tower was captured. Does Gil Galad know one of his garrisons has vanished?

Don't like the future visions, it's story breaking knowledge too soon.

Spoiler

Show

Not sure why Elrond even cares about mithril, or why the Numenorians think elves will show up looking for work at their forges and taverns. It doesn't make sense, even by the low standards of an angry mob. Maybe Southlands refugees instead might have worked.

Earien random romance is odd, so is Isildur hearing strange voices.

[KorvinStarmast]

Maglor is a very interesting theory I haven't seen before, they could do a lot with that, but I don't think they could do it justice in the four remaining episodes even if they had the rights. It's such a great idea that the only way to do it justice would be in a separate show dedicated to it, not where he's warm up villain while we wait for Sauron to reveal himself.

All fair points.

Honestly I don't think eight episodes is enough for the story they're trying to tell as it is. We're halfway now.

Given the current pacing, spot on.

[TheSummoner]

Spoiler

Show

Not sure why Elrond even cares about mithril, or why the Numenorians think elves will show up looking for work at their forges and taverns. It doesn't make sense, even by the low standards of an angry mob.

Spoiler

Show

Numenoreans according to canon: Hated the elves because they were jealous of the elves' immortality.

Numenoreans according to Amazon:

Spoiler

Show

[Mechalich]

The bit in episode 4 where he talks about never being able to speak to his father again (Earendil) was actually well done and quite poignant.

And also...wrong. Earendil sails through the sky at night, but returns daily to Valinor. When Elrond returns to Valinor - which we know will happen even if it is thousands of years in the future - he will be able to see his father again (and, due to the way the Elven 'afterlife' works, even if Elrond were killed he'd eventually see his father in Valinor again). The person Elrond has actually lost for good is his brother, Elros, who chose to live as a Man and not an Elf and died hundreds of years earlier as the First King of Numenor (and of course, in the far future Elrond will ultimately lose his daughter, Arwen to the same thing).

[diplomancer]

Yeah, I guess we'll get a better idea of what they are doing with the time line as the episodes unfold. For me it's quite disorienting.

Yes, trying to fit the show into the established timeline is very confusing.

And also...wrong. Earendil sails through the sky at night, but returns daily to Valinor. When Elrond returns to Valinor - which we know will happen even if it is thousands of years in the future - he will be able to see his father again (and, due to the way the Elven 'afterlife' works, even if Elrond were killed he'd eventually see his father in Valinor again). The person Elrond has actually lost for good is his brother, Elros, who chose to live as a Man and not an Elf and died hundreds of years earlier as the First King of Numenor (and of course, in the far future Elrond will ultimately lose his daughter, Arwen to the same thing).

Being a bit too critical here, I believe. "Hey, that's totally not true. You will see your father again in 5000 years, once you're fading and weary of Middle-Earth" is not exactly a counterargument to the point Elrond was making, i.e, that he has no way to access his father's wisdom and love directly and that Durin does and should take the opportunity while he can.

Remember, Elrond was separated from his father when he was still a child. And his father is also literally the greatest hero ever of Middle-Earth, while he hasn't accomplished much of note yet. And every now and then he sees a reminder of that fact. A poignant scene indeed.

[factotum]

I want to know how the garrison in the elf tower was captured. Does Gil Galad know one of his garrisons has vanished?

Didn't the garrison at the tower get orders to abandon it back in episode 1? I don't think they were captured?

[Divayth Fyr]

Didn't the garrison at the tower get orders to abandon it back in episode 1? I don't think they were captured?

Didn't we see them as orc prisoners in episode 3?

As for the Earendil speech, while it might not be strictly true if you want to nitpick it to death, it is probably the one time in all of the episodes so far where the show hit me in the feels...

[TheSummoner]

I want to know how the garrison in the elf tower was captured. Does Gil Galad know one of his garrisons has vanished?

They somehow missed the massive, landscape scarring trench that the orcs were using to move around. Given that, they probably didn't see the orcs themselves walking up to them before it's too late.

And do we know that they're Gil-Galad's garrisons? When we were discussing the tree scene, a few people mentioned that Arandir's group probably aren't Noldor. I don't recall the show explaining the distinction or even that a distinction exists, so the logical conclusion is that the elves are all part of the same group, but I don't think it's established one way or the other.

Re: Elrond/Durin
As far as lore breaks go, the stuff about Earendil is pretty minor.

Spoiler

Show

What I took more issue with was the fact that Durin is so adamant about no one learning about the mithril and then just gives Elrond a chunk of it. Seems like a pretty easy way for word to get out.

[Divayth Fyr]

Re: Elrond/Durin
As far as lore breaks go, the stuff about Earendil is pretty minor.

Spoiler

Show

What I took more issue with was the fact that Durin is so adamant about no one learning about the mithril and then just gives Elrond a chunk of it. Seems like a pretty easy way for word to get out.

Spoiler

Show

Ah, but he made him swear an oath. I really hope they won't try to spin it as the breaking of said oath being responsible for the bad stuff happening in Elrond's life later on...

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler

Show

They pulled out because they got Gil Galad's declaration that the war was over, so they're at least subject to him.

Arondir's commander the Watchwarden was on the chain gang an Episode ago, so somehow they got captured before they could leave.

Re Oaths, the whole 'sorrow until you leave Middle Earth part' more or less happens, so maybe.

[KorvinStarmast]

And do we know that they're Gil-Galad's garrisons? When we were discussing the tree scene, a few people mentioned that Arandir's group probably aren't Noldor.

Spoiler: what kind of elves?

Show

In Ep 4, Arondir is asked where he came from by Adan, and his answer is "Beleriand". This suggests to me that he is Sindar - were he one of the Nandor I think he'd have said "Ossiriand." The grey cloaks and bows from Ep 1 also point to Sindar or Nandor

But the writers might not be making that distinction.

[Divayth Fyr]

Spoiler: what kind of elves?

Show

In Ep 4, Arondir is asked where he came from by Adan, and his answer is "Beleriand". This suggests to me that he is Sindar - were he one of the Nandor I think he'd have said "Ossiriand." The grey cloaks and bows from Ep 1 also point to Sindar or Nandor

But the writers might not be making that distinction.

The show's page has this for Arondir

Spoiler

Show

Arondir is a Silvan Elf, a branch of woodland elves who never left Middle-earth for Valinor.

[factotum]

Spoiler

Show

Arondir's commander the Watchwarden was on the chain gang an Episode ago, so somehow they got captured before they could leave.

I think maybe it's more likely:

Spoiler

Show

They left the tower according to their orders and got captured in the open field. Seems more likely than them getting captured while still inside a highly defensible structure.

[Metastachydium]

The show's page has this for Arondir

Spoiler

Show

Arondir is a Silvan Elf, a branch of woodland elves who never left Middle-earth for Valinor.

Yes, that's why I suggested Eastern (i.e. east of the Misties) Nandor earlier. As a matter of fact, I'd still suspect Laiquend over Sinda. In the broader sense, Ossiriand is part of Beleriand. (Anyhow, I would have preferred them to be Avari. Those poor souls deserve some spotlight and it would have solved a couple of issues. Alas, no such luck!)