Anonymouswizard's Astoundingly Assonant Random Banter #240

[enderlord99]

"Unwritten history" probably works

[Metastachydium]

While that's true, that's also exactly what Tai was looking for! A more generalized term than "oral history".

Well, yes, but if I understood correctly, the issue with oral history as a term was largely about the implicit restriction it imposes with regard to the means of transmission; folklore is broader in content rather than merely in form.

[LaZodiac]

Well, yes, but if I understood correctly, the issue with oral history as a term was largely about the implicit restriction it imposes with regard to the means of transmission; folklore is broader in content rather than merely in form.

While that MAY be true, it does accomplish the general goal (and may not, historically, have been inaccurate a term for the combined oral and written traditions and stories of a people). It's entirely possible linguistic drift has made Folklore take on a more fairytale esque element to it, that it didn't have back then.

Either way, it probably works for Tai's purposes? Or if not maybe the "Inherited History" option I came up with, that one's probably good too?

[Metastachydium]

While that MAY be true, it does accomplish the general goal (and may not, historically, have been inaccurate a term for the combined oral and written traditions and stories of a people). It's entirely possible linguistic drift has made Folklore take on a more fairytale esque element to it, that it didn't have back then.

Either way, it probably works for Tai's purposes? Or if not maybe the "Inherited History" option I came up with, that one's probably good too?

The issue is that it's essentially a hyperonym for what I believe Tai Liu's looking for and an insane amount of other thing from within the realm of, as you rightly put it, oral and written traditions. It's overkill and confusing if all you want to say is "like oral history, but including other modalities of transmission other than writing".

[Form]

I entered a fugue state and drew Noble, the wandering gunslinger from my Nanowrimo story Mist and Fire. You can see him here, and also here without his cloak and hat.

I'm getting WW1 vibes from the gas mask. Deliberate?

[LaZodiac]

The issue is that it's essentially a hyperonym for what I believe Tai Liu's looking for and an insane amount of other thing from within the realm of, as you rightly put it, oral and written traditions. It's overkill and confusing if all you want to say is "like oral history, but including other modalities of transmission other than writing".

You know, that's a fair point. Folklore may be a bit too vast even at its thinnest.

I'm getting WW1 vibes from the gas mask. Deliberate?

Yup! The big conflict one hundred years ago that unified the world was basically WW1 era tech. It's hard to get that across when just talking about it a hundred years after the fact so Initial Sparks doesn't necessarily bring this up, just noting "ONY supplied advanced wartime technologies to Felisia, allowing them to win the war handedly" according to their history books.

And to be clear by advanced war time technologies we don't mean super weapons, we mean machine-rifle, modern body armour, and superior vehicle capabilities. It'd be like if during World War 1, one country had full access to World War 2 and a bit weaponry.

[Rater202]

And to be clear by advanced war time technologies we don't mean super weapons, we mean machine-rifle, modern body armour, and superior vehicle capabilities. It'd be like if during World War 1, one country had full access to World War 2 and a bit weaponry.

To be fair, the idea of a "superweapon" is subjective.

The first people who learned to make weapons and armor from iron had an advantage over those who were still using bronze, and those who could relaibly forge steel had an advantage over those who had cruder iron.

[Form]

Yup! The big conflict one hundred years ago that unified the world was basically WW1 era tech. It's hard to get that across when just talking about it a hundred years after the fact so Initial Sparks doesn't necessarily bring this up, just noting "ONY supplied advanced wartime technologies to Felisia, allowing them to win the war handedly" according to their history books.

And to be clear by advanced war time technologies we don't mean super weapons, we mean machine-rifle, modern body armour, and superior vehicle capabilities. It'd be like if during World War 1, one country had full access to World War 2 and a bit weaponry.

That would make sense. As a WW2 tech level nation Felisia would have a superior air force, superior logistics and industrial capacity and be capable of mechanized warfare that WW1 tech nations would not. I would not be surprised if the WW1 nations were completely blindsided by the speed at which Felisia's forces could advance. I'd expect the WW1 tech level nations to still think in terms of how fast infantry can advance without considering mechanized units. For example, tanks were introduced during WW1, but they tended to be unreliable and slow. So in so far as they would be aware of such inventions, they probably wouldn't grasp their full potential, much less of more advanced versions of them.

As a side note, I see that Noble's hair is showing. His hands and feet are protected, but the back of his head may be vulnerable to mustard gas (or other gasses that also attack the skin, insofar as that's relevant to your setting)? Though if I were Noble I'd be very happy to have any kind of gas mask. Better to only get blisters on the back of my head then also on the inside of my lungs. And better to at least be protected against chlorine gas than against no gasses at all.

[Peelee]

To be fair, the idea of a "superweapon" is subjective.

The first people who learned to make weapons and armor from iron had an advantage over those who were still using bronze, and those who could relaibly forge steel had an advantage over those who had cruder iron.

Ehhhh...

If Bob has a spear and Alice has a gun, Alice doesn't have a super weapon, just a superior weapon. I feel like superweapons imply capability for mass destruction. Like, nukes are superweapons. Even the old ones that are peanuts compared to modern ones.

[Form]

Ehhhh...

If Bob has a spear and Alice has a gun, Alice doesn't have a super weapon, just a superior weapon. I feel like superweapons imply capability for mass destruction. Like, nukes are superweapons. Even the old ones that are peanuts compared to modern ones.

Maybe we should consider this at a larger scale. An army of Bobs (all armed with spears) facing an army of Alices (all armed with guns) would perhaps not appreciate the distinction all that much. They're goners either way.

[Rater202]

Ehhhh...

If Bob has a spear and Alice has a gun, Alice doesn't have a super weapon, just a superior weapon. I feel like superweapons imply capability for mass destruction. Like, nukes are superweapons. Even the old ones that are peanuts compared to modern ones.

Point, but if Bob and his friends only have spears and live in simple wooden houses Alice coming in with a drumfed automatic shotgun could leave them all dead and their homes damaged or destroyed.

I'm sure Bob would consider that mass destruction.

[Peelee]

Maybe we should consider this at a larger scale. An army of Bobs (all armed with spears) facing an army of Alices (all armed with guns) would perhaps not appreciate the distinction all that much. They're goners either way.

Well, sure, but that's just an army with superior weaponry.

Point, but if Bob and his friends only have spears and live in simple wooden houses Alice coming in with a drumfed automatic shotgun could leave them all dead and their homes damaged or destroyed.

I'm sure Bob would consider that mass destruction.

Superweapons don't stop being superweapons, and normal weapons that can be used a lot don't become superweapons just because they can be used a lot.

Lets take Star Wars as an example. A single Imperial-II Star Destroyer can completely glass a planet. It's not a super weapon. Starkiller Base can destroy entire solar systems from across the galaxy, but if another Death Star was built afterwards, it would not be classified as no longer a superweapon.

[LaZodiac]

To be fair, the idea of a "superweapon" is subjective.

The first people who learned to make weapons and armor from iron had an advantage over those who were still using bronze, and those who could relaibly forge steel had an advantage over those who had cruder iron.

Ehhhh...

If Bob has a spear and Alice has a gun, Alice doesn't have a super weapon, just a superior weapon. I feel like superweapons imply capability for mass destruction. Like, nukes are superweapons. Even the old ones that are peanuts compared to modern ones.

These two opinions on what "super weapon" means functionally is glorious because MY thought was "those weird turbo machines that were completely absurd and never worked ever because they're ridiculous" like the train cannon or the flying aircraft carrier. Three possible routes and none of them were exactly the same!

I will say though, thinking about both of your definitions, I think I'm more in the realm of Peelee in that super weapons involve some form of wide scale destruction- but also that it's entirely within the context of the people talking about it, like Rater says. They might see a machine-rifle as a super weapon since one guy with a single one can wipe out a squad of people before their bolt-lever rifles can get off a shot in return.

That said as conversation that happened while I was writing this up has brought up, super weapons losing that term because of time passing is kinda weird and maybe shouldn't happen? It's a fascinating example of how malleable and strange the english language is, and is giving me some enjoyable thoughts to chew on.

That would make sense. As a WW2 tech level nation Felisia would have a superior air force, superior logistics and industrial capacity and be capable of mechanized warfare that WW1 tech nations would not. I would not be surprised if the WW1 nations were completely blindsided by the speed at which Felisia's forces could advance. I'd expect the WW1 tech level nations to still think in terms of how fast infantry can advance without considering mechanized units. For example, tanks were introduced during WW1, but they tended to be unreliable and slow. So in so far as they would be aware of such inventions, they probably wouldn't grasp their full potential, much less of more advanced versions of them.

As a side note, I see that Noble's hair is showing. His hands and feet are protected, but the back of his head may be vulnerable to mustard gas (or other gasses that also attack the skin, insofar as that's relevant to your setting)? Though if I were Noble I'd be very happy to have any kind of gas mask. Better to only get blisters on the back of my head then also on the inside of my lungs. And better to at least be protected against chlorine gas than against no gasses at all.

Yup! The air superiority, plus their ability to expand and advance, are what really took the legs out from the other nations!

Yeah that could be a concern, but luckily for him chemical warfare isn't 100% common in setting (due to the continent being a pangaeic there's less incentitive to completely obliterate the place you're invading), though I imagine it was still a danger during the war. Double lucky then, since "Mist and Fire" takes place near the tail end of the war, so he's probably going to avoid anything too nasty.

(Incidently, here's a link to the chapters of "Mist and Fire" that are out, if you wanna read. Right here!)

[Form]

Well, sure, but that's just an army with superior weaponry.

Superweapons don't stop being superweapons, and normal weapons that can be used a lot don't become superweapons just because they can be used a lot.

Lets take Star Wars as an example. A single Imperial-II Star Destroyer can completely glass a planet. It's not a super weapon. Starkiller Base can destroy entire solar systems from across the galaxy, but if another Death Star was built afterwards, it would not be classified as no longer a superweapon.

Seems mostly a matter of perspective to me. If a gun is the biggest, baddest thing there is in a world, would it count as a 'superweapon' then? And would the Imperial-II Star Destroyer count as a 'superweapon' if there were no Starkiller Base or Death Stars? The definition seems fairly arbitrary to me. I mean, I think it's pretty well defined (legally and all) as to what it considered a 'weapon of mass destruction' for contrast. I'm not aware of any such definition for a 'superweapon'.

[Peelee]

Seems mostly a matter of perspective to me. If a gun is the biggest, baddest thing there is in a world, would it count as a 'superweapon' then?

Why?

And would the Imperial-II Star Destroyer count as a 'superweapon' if there were no Starkiller Base or Death Stars?

Why?

Imean, it seems like you're defining "superweapon" as "the most advanced/lethal/effective/whatever weapon in any given time frame. I'm not. It's that simple.

[Fyraltari]

A superweapon is a weapon whose nature gives you an edge over your less technologically advanced competion.
The second part is critical.
During WWII atom bombs were superweapons. Now they are "mearly" weapons of mass destruction.

Or, as syndrom would put it: "When everyone has a superweapon, no one has."

[Form]

Why?

Why?

Imean, it seems like you're defining "superweapon" as "the most advanced/lethal/effective/whatever weapon in any given time frame. I'm not. It's that simple.

So, is that a 'no' to the first question and the second question?

I'm arguing the definition of 'superweapon' is arbitrary and depends on perspective and, with that, also the timeframe. You seem to have a very specific definition of what is a 'superweapon'. What would you consider a superweapon then?

[halfeye]

Well, sure, but that's just an army with superior weaponry.

Superweapons don't stop being superweapons, and normal weapons that can be used a lot don't become superweapons just because they can be used a lot.

That may be fair?

Lets take Star Wars as an example. A single Imperial-II Star Destroyer can completely glass a planet. It's not a super weapon.

If a nuke, which can glass a city at most is a superweapon, how is this thing not?

[Peelee]

A superweapon is a weapon whose nature gives you an edge over your less technologically advanced competion.
The second part is critical.
During WWII atom bombs were superweapons. Now they are "mearly" weapons of mass destruction.

Or, as syndrom would put it: "When everyone has a superweapon, no one has."

I have an Earthbomb. It blows up the earth. It's still a super weapon.

A quarter of the people on the planet all have Earthbombs. It still blows up the earth. It's still a superweapon, despite it not being rare.

Syndrome's claim isn't applicable to everything.

If a nuke, which can glass a city at most is a superweapon, how is this thing not?

Different universes, really. We're realistically never going to get to the point where we can destroy planets with spaceships. We'll get more powerful weapons, sure, but nuclear weaponry is still going to be a superweapon. Maybe not the most powerful superweapon, but a superweapon nonetheless.

[TaiLiu]

Thanks, everyone.

"Inherited" history perhaps, to indicate the conveying thereof from one generation to the next regardless of text or speech?

Either way, it probably works for Tai's purposes? Or if not maybe the "Inherited History" option I came up with, that one's probably good too?

Hm. Maybe. I don't think it quite works, since I think "oral history" can refer to history that hasn't been passed down. It can be something you've experienced.

Isn't that the original meaning of "folklore"?

Maybe! But folklore's a lil broad, as said, and it doesn't have to be a folk's (i.e. people's) history. "Oral history" seems like it could refer to someone's personal history in a way that "folklore" doesn't capture.

"Unwritten history" probably works

Yeah, I think this is the best! "Heretofore unwritten history" if that history is then written down.

I entered a fugue state and drew Noble, the wandering gunslinger from my Nanowrimo story Mist and Fire. You can see him here, and also here without his cloak and hat.

Oh, that's very spooky.

[Fyraltari]

I have an Earthbomb. It blows up the earth. It's still a super weapon. A quarter of the people on the planet all have Earthbombs. It still blows up the earth. It's still a superweapon, despite it not being rare.

A weapon you can't use without killing yourself is a ****ty weapon, not a super one.

Syndrome's claim isn't applicable to everything.

No, but in this case it is.

You seemnto be defining "superweapon" as "a weapon that does massive damage" but that's just kicking the bucket: what counts as massive? The notion of superweapon will always be context dependent*.

A few tanks would be enough to defeat a roman legion. If some time traveller had somehow brought tanks to the first century BCE, would you not consider them superweapons?

[Size=1]Which makes sense. Super is Latin for "above".

[Rater202]

Pop culture trivia: In the version of the Transformers theme song recorded for the original animated movie in the G1 continuity, the band Lion mispronounced "Unicron" as "unicorn."

[Lord Raziere]

(Incidently, here's a link to the chapters of "Mist and Fire" that are out, if you wanna read. Right here!)

I've been meaning to read this, but other stuff has kept me busy.

Spoiler: Thoughts upon Mist and Fire

Show

cowboy running from a war, wandering on his own, classic start

Salamander girl having that he/she confusion of a stranger meeting her for the first time vs someone who has been around longer....nice way to hint at that without going too deep into it.

three gunshots, and talk about a girl's an orphan and somehow consider that a good thing. what a way for the first part to end.

and newcomer defendin' the outcast in trouble, always a hit, love to see it yeah, yeah....

"why shouldn't I?" is always a great answer to that question, it isn't used enough.

oh, demon eh? a demon made of sand with eyes of fire. interesting. and this man with smiling eyes- he means mouth-eyes? hm.

well you can't blame her, stranger you are awfully fitting the lone gunslinger archetype right now.

and after a shootout, Noble and Saila ride to find the smiling eye man.

quiet campfire scene of them asking each other's stories over cooked lizards, and of course both of them have a personal thing that they can't say yet. but yeah Saila's basically a wild west pulp geek. she'd be the type to read superhero comics if this was modern day.

another demon thing but scorpion-like this time? hm. are the monsters and demons have some physiology where each one has a wildly different biological appearance or is it just different species?

so huh, weird the mother just....walked back in? that is confusing, or very sad. and smiling eye man is Noble's brother? huh. definitely a story there.

I like how your using a cowboy plot to tell more about this world, while also making sure you succinctly balance that with the character's personal problems. Noble is interesting because so far, he demonstrates knowledge of the supernatural while has yet to demonstrate any supernatural ability himself. he could just be doing the experienced ronin protagonist thing of hiding his true abilities unless he needs them, but it'd be interesting if he was just normal because how would he get into having knowledge about such things and how does he deal with them using only a gun?

I myself have been working on something, not nanowrimo, I'm not brave enough for that and its ten days in, but you have encouraged me to try and show off something I'm working on a bit myself:
The Tale of Jade, Demon Ascended Chapters 1 and 2

[Rater202]

If we're just generally sharing our creative efforts, I recently made my own Jumpchan Document(with help.) Started in mid-september, finished it earlier this month.

I'm not sure if I can link it here though. It includes language that would be censored on the forum and brief mentions of certain historical events(albeit in a fictional context) that might trip the no politics rule due to the necessities of the subject matter.

(The subject matter is Super Soldiers. There are a lot of Jump Documents based on Marvel Comics, I made one based on MArvel's Super Soldiers.)

[LaZodiac]

I've been meaning to read this, but other stuff has kept me busy.

Spoiler: Thoughts upon Mist and Fire

Show

cowboy running from a war, wandering on his own, classic start

Salamander girl having that he/she confusion of a stranger meeting her for the first time vs someone who has been around longer....nice way to hint at that without going too deep into it.

three gunshots, and talk about a girl's an orphan and somehow consider that a good thing. what a way for the first part to end.

and newcomer defendin' the outcast in trouble, always a hit, love to see it yeah, yeah....

"why shouldn't I?" is always a great answer to that question, it isn't used enough.

oh, demon eh? a demon made of sand with eyes of fire. interesting. and this man with smiling eyes- he means mouth-eyes? hm.

well you can't blame her, stranger you are awfully fitting the lone gunslinger archetype right now.

and after a shootout, Noble and Saila ride to find the smiling eye man.

quiet campfire scene of them asking each other's stories over cooked lizards, and of course both of them have a personal thing that they can't say yet. but yeah Saila's basically a wild west pulp geek. she'd be the type to read superhero comics if this was modern day.

another demon thing but scorpion-like this time? hm. are the monsters and demons have some physiology where each one has a wildly different biological appearance or is it just different species?

so huh, weird the mother just....walked back in? that is confusing, or very sad. and smiling eye man is Noble's brother? huh. definitely a story there.

I like how your using a cowboy plot to tell more about this world, while also making sure you succinctly balance that with the character's personal problems. Noble is interesting because so far, he demonstrates knowledge of the supernatural while has yet to demonstrate any supernatural ability himself. he could just be doing the experienced ronin protagonist thing of hiding his true abilities unless he needs them, but it'd be interesting if he was just normal because how would he get into having knowledge about such things and how does he deal with them using only a gun?

I myself have been working on something, not nanowrimo, I'm not brave enough for that and its ten days in, but you have encouraged me to try and show off something I'm working on a bit myself:
The Tale of Jade, Demon Ascended Chapters 1 and 2

Understandable! There's never a rush to read my stuff, real life comes first and all that.

Spoiler: Mist and Fire

Show

The thought I had when I wrote what the "blessing of the salamander" can be seen as is a weird one, but I think it makes sense. Caring for people, even people you like, can be a burden at times. Especially so in war. So for Saila, being so completely unburdened, some might see it as a blessing. If the only person you have is yourself, you can have an easy life... though it may not be a good one.

You're officially the second person, of the people who've read this, to come up with the conclusion that the smile in the eyes isn't metaphorical. Whether that is true or not remains to be seen, but fun to see someone pick up that might be a thing!

To clarify; monsters are the demon equivalent of animals. You look at a cat and you go "oh that's an animal". You look at a manticore and go "oh that's a monster". Monsters have their own classes and phylum like animals, with manticore's being part of the khimaira class alongside unicorns (horse+lion+narwal), wyverns (snake+bird) and sphinges (cats+birds+humanoid traits, a cousin species to manticores actually). Demons tend to look pretty different even along the same lines (two fire demons may look wildly different depending on their biology) in much the way that two humans look very different while being the same. Monsters likewise, though still along the animal routes (manticore's tend to be tiger or lion looking, but with some token humanoid features since that's part of what makes a manticore a monster). Sorry if I'm not 100% clear, I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here.

I will say there is a reason why Saila's mother did that. It may or may not get touched on. It is... sad. Very sad.

Yeah, that's the major benefit of side stories like this! Showing off more of the world, while also telling a story in and of itself. It's been fun to balance that! It's also been fun researching this region of the real world to better show Trestaria (I've learned a lot about clothing only to realize none of these characters have any reason to know what this v_v). And yeah, Noble seems to be just a gunslinger. Whether or not he's got anything super special about him is... well, it's actually been hinted at in a place or two! But we shall see!

Ooh, I'll give that a read in a bit!

If we're just generally sharing our creative efforts, I recently made my own Jumpchan Document(with help.) Started in mid-september, finished it earlier this month.

I'm not sure if I can link it here though. It includes language that would be censored on the forum and brief mentions of certain historical events(albeit in a fictional context) that might trip the no politics rule due to the necessities of the subject matter.

(The subject matter is Super Soldiers. There are a lot of Jump Documents based on Marvel Comics, I made one based on MArvel's Super Soldiers.)

Fascinating, though yeah I don't think that'd be board safe yeah.

[Peelee]

A weapon you can't use without killing yourself is a ****ty weapon, not a super one.

Still a superweapon. Just takes you with it.

No, but in this case it is.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

[Anonymouswizard]

You can call me Anonymoustargarean, considering where I'll be spending most of today.

If anybody knows of a place to get lacto-free stilton I'll be incredibly grateful.

[Form]

We've been going about this semantics discussion all wrong. What I should have done from the start is to just link a dictionary's definition and be done with it. Apparently a 'superweapon' is just 'an extremely powerful weapon'. A rather broad definition, but I'm not sure what else I expected, really. Apparently among the examples it refers to a trebuchet as a superweapon in the context of the middle ages.

[Fyraltari]

Still a superweapon. Just takes you with it.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

Very kind of you to reply to yourself in my stead. I appreciate it.

[Keltest]

Surely I cant be the only one after all this conversation thinking of that one scene from Megamind now. "Oh youre a weapon all right. Just not a Super one!"