On Girard's Opinion Of Soon In Comic #695

[WanderingMist]

This has been bugging me for a long time: Girard told Soon that "[Soon] should have died in that rift". Girard puts all the blame on Soon. But it's not like Girard tried to save either of them by getting them out of range of the spell. And despite what Dorukan says on the next page about Soon avenging his dead wife, I'm inclined to believe Soon also thinks he should have died in the rift, and possibly that Kraagor pushed him out of the way to prevent him from sacrificing himself.

[Mic_128]

This has been bugging me for a long time: Girard told Soon that "[Soon] should have died in that rift". Girard puts all the blame on Soon. But it's not like Girard tried to save either of them by getting them out of range of the spell.

No, but if you look at the facts -

1. Soon was the one who seemingly started the party, or at least acting against the snarl, primarily because it killed his wife. It's not surprising that he'd be more motivated and invested than the other adventurers.

2. He wasn't the closest to the final portal when-

3. He ordered the closure of the rift, which killed their dear friend.

I can totally see why Girard would say that Soon should have been the one to die.

[Ruck]

The Giant has hinted that at some point in this book we'll get more details about what really happened to break up the Scribble, so I expect some of these questions will be answered before the end of the story.

[Fyraltari]

The Giant has hinted that at some point in this book we'll get more details about what really happened to break up the Scribble, so I expect some of these questions will be answered before the end of the story.

Yup. I feel like Roy's line just prior ("What the hell happened between these people to turn them against each other like this?") is a pretty clear clue that we haven't got a full picture yet. I hope Serini explains things soon.

[Ruck]

Yup. I feel like Roy's line just prior ("What the hell happened between these people to turn them against each other like this?") is a pretty clear clue that we haven't got a full picture yet. I hope Serini explains things soon.

I found something in the chapter 1 Blood Runs in the Family commentary that hints at it a little:

After all, the story of how [Girard Draketooth] and Kim Soon came to such bitterness is part of the hidden history of the world, and I couldn’t resist teasing it just a bit here.

That's not the quote I'm thinking of, but I think it does imply that he intends to do more than just tease it in the future. But I think he actually said something like "There's more to the breakup of the Order of the Scribble that has yet to be revealed" somewhere else.

[Metastachydium]

That's not the quote I'm thinking of, but I think it does imply that he intends to do more than just tease it in the future. But I think he actually said something like "There's more to the breakup of the Order of the Scribble that has yet to be revealed" somewhere else.

I have the impression that you might be looking for this one:

there's also, I mean there are certain events that happened in that history between Girard and Soon Kim that have not been revealed that will certainly maybe make him seem a little less paranoid than he does right now, but not not-paranoid. But yeah, there's more there going on with what happened with the Order of the Scribble than has been revealed. But that's all gonna be unwound as the story comes towards its conclusion.

[Ruck]

That does seem like the one, thanks!

I knew I'd read it recently; I'd forgotten I perused the quote thread again a while back.

[Mike Havran]

It may also be that Girard just wanted to insult Soon as deeply as he could, since he also ragged on his gods.

[WanderingMist]

No, but if you look at the facts -

1. Soon was the one who seemingly started the party, or at least acting against the snarl, primarily because it killed his wife. It's not surprising that he'd be more motivated and invested than the other adventurers.

2. He wasn't the closest to the final portal when-

3. He ordered the closure of the rift, which killed their dear friend.

I can totally see why Girard would say that Soon should have been the one to die.

True, but I suppose my real question is do you think Kraagor would have done the same thing if he and Soon had swapped positions? And would Girard have had any problem with Soon being the one to die in the rift had it happened that way?

[theangelJean]

No, but if you look at the facts -

1. Soon was the one who seemingly started the party, or at least acting against the snarl, primarily because it killed his wife. It's not surprising that he'd be more motivated and invested than the other adventurers.

2. He wasn't the closest to the final portal when-

3. He ordered the closure of the rift, which killed their dear friend.

I can totally see why Girard would say that Soon should have been the one to die.

I just noticed that the last two "facts" come from a visual depiction of Soon's account of the story.

And also that paladins may not lie, but they will omit aspects of the events to protect others, even if that unfairly implicates themselves.

Now I really want to know what actually happened.

[Trixie_One]

I think it's just as simple as saying that Girard is a horrible person.

I've long felt that just as Miko was an exploration of how playing too Lawful can be really obnoxious, Girard is what happens when you swing too far over into the Chaotic side of the alignment equation.

He's reflexively cynical and flippant long past the point where it's helpful to him and has became a fuil on character flaw. A flaw that makes him an utter git to have around. Pretty much every line of dialogue he has is designed to jab and needle at Soon to prove himself right that he's better than him. Even when Soon might not be around he's just as happy taking it out on Soon's paladins.

[ti'esar]

I'm pretty sure Girard got worse after the Scribblers broke up, though - and the opposite may have held for Soon. I mean, apart from the fact that we literally have a quote from Rich saying we're missing context that would make Girard's position more understandable... I've always felt that Soon's words to Miko about redemption imply a degree of firsthand knowledge. I'm not saying he ever fell or anything, but the noble Ghost-Martyr Soon we saw may have been a better man than the one who allegedly 'let' Kraagor die.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Giant has hinted that at some point in this book we'll get more details about what really happened to break up the Scribble, so I expect some of these questions will be answered before the end of the story.

Yes, but that's never stopped anyone from proposing a variety of variant before, has it?

I think it's just as simple as saying that Girard is a horrible person.

I've long felt that just as Miko was an exploration of how playing too Lawful can be really obnoxious, Girard is what happens when you swing too far over into the Chaotic side of the alignment equation.

Typical Sorcerer: charismatic, egomaniac, selfish, cynical: gee, kinda like Xykon.

[BloodSquirrel]

Just to throw this out there: There being more to the story does not necessarily mean that Girard's opinion of Soon was more justified than we currently have reason to think. It could be that Girard was even more of an ass than we've seen so far, or it could also mean that there were just events that Girard interpreted through the lens of his own narrative to validate his own opinion of Soon.

Even if Soon did make some mistakes and have some of his own flaws, Girard still may be completely backwards on how he thinks about them. After all, one thing we do know for certain is that Girard was wrong about Soon sending his paladins over to "check up" within a couple of weeks. I'm not saying that Soon was a perfect hero, but I think that Girard is completely off-base about him, no matter what his flaws may have been.

[ZhonLord]

I'd also like to point out that even Girard's own teammate called him paranoid , so it's entirely probable that the other Scribble team members also had issues with their resident illusionist.

[littlebum2002]

Just to throw this out there: There being more to the story does not necessarily mean that Girard's opinion of Soon was more justified than we currently have reason to think.

I mean, that pretty much exactly what Rich said was going to happen though.

there's also, I mean there are certain events that happened in that history between Girard and Soon Kim that have not been revealed that will certainly maybe make him seem a little less paranoid than he does right now, but not not-paranoid.

His portrayal so far has been nothing but unjustified paranoia towards Soon, so the only way for him to seem (a little) less paranoid is if (some of) his paranoia was justified.

[Rrmcklin]

Personally, I've always liked the idea that Soon could genuinely be more responsible for the Order of the Scribbles break up while still genuinely being a much better person that Girard, and certainly better than he thought.

People are complicated and even good people can make terrible mistakes. I think the comic has already done a lot with that, so it's not like it would be out of nowhere.

I will say though, even with that I've always found the way some people implicitly demonize Soon while going easier on Girard strange. I guess it has to do with anti-Paladin bias or whatever.

[Gurgeh]

"People getting mad at a made-up version of Soon who lives in their heads and was never depicted in the comic" is a persistent theme on this forum, so yes, that last bit checks out.

[BloodSquirrel]

I mean, that pretty much exactly what Rich said was going to happen though.


His portrayal so far has been nothing but unjustified paranoia towards Soon, so the only way for him to seem (a little) less paranoid is if (some of) his paranoia was justified.

My point was, very specifically, that this does not logically follow.

It is easy to come up with ways in which Girard could seem less paranoid without Soon being at fault. A third party having giving Girard false or biased information, for example, or Soon doing something which was entirely in line with his ethics and conception of honor which Girard, due to his ideological differences, took offense to.

Based specifically on the text that we have seen so far: Soon appears to hold the idea of self-sacrifice in higher regard that Girard. Giving an order which put both his and Kraggor's lives at risk would be perfectly honorable according to his worldview- they both chose to accept the risk, and Kraggor's death was a regretful, but honorable consequence. Girard does not think that Soon had the right to give that order, even if Kraggor was fighting next to him of his own free will and was (presumably) aware of the risks.

[Fyraltari]

My point was, very specifically, that this does not logically follow.

It is easy to come up with ways in which Girard could seem less paranoid without Soon being at fault. A third party having giving Girard false or biased information, for example, or Soon doing something which was entirely in line with his ethics and conception of honor which Girard, due to his ideological differences, took offense to.

Based specifically on the text that we have seen so far: Soon appears to hold the idea of self-sacrifice in higher regard that Girard. Giving an order which put both his and Kraggor's lives at risk would be perfectly honorable according to his worldview- they both chose to accept the risk, and Kraggor's death was a regretful, but honorable consequence. Girard does not think that Soon had the right to give that order, even if Kraggor was fighting next to him of his own free will and was (presumably) aware of the risks.

We also know that Soon was something of a classist (the SG was founded out of members of Azurite nobility only) we don't really know Girard's background but if he was lower-class (hah!), dragon-heritage aside, it's possible that Soon was unintentionally hurtful, and Girard always assume the worst from him or something.

Is suspect we'll learn that the break-up of the Order of the Scribble was a bit of everyone's fault, personally.

[Keltest]

We also know that Soon was something of a classist (the SG was founded out of members of Azurite nobility only) we don't really know Girard's background but if he was lower-class (hah!), dragon-heritage aside, it's possible that Soon was unintentionally hurtful, and Girard always assume the worst from him or something.

Is suspect we'll learn that the break-up of the Order of the Scribble was a bit of everyone's fault, personally.

It may not strictly be classism. Knights and the equivalent are expensive. Soon may very well have been unable or unwilling to pay for the Sapphire Guard's upkeep out of his own pockets, or the city's pockets. Just a suit of unenchanted plate armor costs 1500 GP, which if my understanding of 3.5's default assumed economics is correct, represents about 40 years of income for a peasant, before accounting for their own expenses. For just the unenchanted armor with no special materials.

[TaiLiu]

We also know that Soon was something of a classist (the SG was founded out of members of Azurite nobility only) we don't really know Girard's background but if he was lower-class (hah!), dragon-heritage aside, it's possible that Soon was unintentionally hurtful, and Girard always assume the worst from him or something.

That's a really good point. I think practically all our depictions of him are Good and heroic (except maybe the crayon flashback when he orders the rift shut), but it does seem likely that he was the one who implemented the nobility-only paladin prerequisite.* That's not a good look, but he might've learned better while a deathless martyr. He certainly never brings it up or take offense at the commoners in his ranks.

* It needn't be him, since it's possible that a noble-only rule came only after he died, but I think it's more likely that he was responsible for it.

It may not strictly be classism. Knights and the equivalent are expensive. Soon may very well have been unable or unwilling to pay for the Sapphire Guard's upkeep out of his own pockets, or the city's pockets. Just a suit of unenchanted plate armor costs 1500 GP, which if my understanding of 3.5's default assumed economics is correct, represents about 40 years of income for a peasant, before accounting for their own expenses. For just the unenchanted armor with no special materials.

Well, we see O-Chul wearing the colors of the Sapphire Guard during the final pages of "How the Paladin Got His Scar." So either the city could afford to give him his armor or he bought it, and he certainly was never depicted wealthy.

[Peelee]

That's a really good point. I think practically all our depictions of him are Good and heroic (except maybe the crayon flashback when he orders the rift shut), but it does seem likely that he was the one who implemented the nobility-only paladin prerequisite.* That's not a good look, but he might've learned better while a deathless martyr. He certainly never brings it up or take offense at the commoners in his ranks.

If you were born on a mountain it's easy to assume that the view is normal. The Sapphire Guard was a secret organization, so it's most likely they did their own private recruiting, and nobles know nobles. It's easy to imagine this was not intentionally done but just came about as happenstance and became systemic quickly and subtly.

[TaiLiu]

If you were born on a mountain it's easy to assume that the view is normal. The Sapphire Guard was a secret organization, so it's most likely they did their own private recruiting, and nobles know nobles. It's easy to imagine this was not intentionally done but just came about as happenstance and became systemic quickly and subtly.

I don't have the book with me right now. Do you remember if the nobility thing was a rule, or was it just that everyone was a noble (and many were elitist)?

[Keltest]

Well, we see O-Chul wearing the colors of the Sapphire Guard during the final pages of "How the Paladin Got His Scar." So either the city could afford to give him his armor or he bought it, and he certainly was never depicted wealthy.

As I recall, the city's lord did not command the Guard until after Soon's retirement/death, when he handed the position over. That may have resulted in the change of funding available.

[TaiLiu]

As I recall, the city's lord did not command the Guard until after Soon's retirement/death, when he handed the position over. That may have resulted in the change of funding available.

That's possible. But I guess I don't consider it likely. The ruling family always seemed intertwined with the Sapphire Guard's affairs. They built the castle around the rift, after all. I'd be surprised if Soon had to personally fund it or something (though I'm sure he'd be willing to pump his adventuring money into his Guard).

[Keltest]

That's possible. But I guess I don't consider it likely. The ruling family always seemed intertwined with the Sapphire Guard's affairs. They built the castle around the rift, after all. I'd be surprised if Soon had to personally fund it or something (though I'm sure he'd be willing to pump his adventuring money into his Guard).

Er, I'm pretty sure the rift was in the sky above the castle. The Sapphire was in the throne, but I dont think the Rift was inside of it.

I think. Theres been a lot of confusion about that.

[TaiLiu]

Er, I'm pretty sure the rift was in the sky above the castle. The Sapphire was in the throne, but I dont think the Rift was inside of it.

I think. Theres been a lot of confusion about that.

Huh? I don't think so. Comic 411 depicts the rift inside the sapphire. And every other depiction of a gate shows the gate around the rift, not below it and physically separate.

[brian 333]

Er, I'm pretty sure the rift was in the sky above the castle. The Sapphire was in the throne, but I dont think the Rift was inside of it.

I think. Theres been a lot of confusion about that.

The tower was built around the sapphire which contained the much smaller rift. The throne was built and set onto the sapphire after the rift was sealed. It is not until the tower is collapsed that we see the rift in the sky.

[dave_smith354]

Er, I'm pretty sure the rift was in the sky above the castle. The Sapphire was in the throne, but I dont think the Rift was inside of it.

I think. Theres been a lot of confusion about that.

Xykon's new tower, while still taller than any other building in Azure City, is a bit lower and to one side of the original tower. I think that may be confusing some people. We do see the rift inside the Sapphire before Miko breaks it.