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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    TBH this one is actually my biggest complaint about Bleach's plotting - almost every climactic combat is resolved by Ichigo .. looking inside himself and finding the resolve to Sword Harder. His moves are Sword Beam, Bigger Sword Beam, 'Evil' (but actually just a different color of energy) Sword Beam, and Biggest Sword Beam. At least up until Thousand Year Blood War, which I admittedly completely checked out of because I couldn't bring myself to care any more, but I have not seen anything indicating it changed.

    So for me the most disappointing part of the Fullbringer interlude and how it resolved is it would have been a perfect opportunity for Ichigo to be restored with a more personalized power set. Instead the sum of Ichigo's being expresses itself as.. 'I like having a sword'? Really? That's it?
    The Thousand Year Blood War arc ends with
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    Ichigo's kinda neat quincy duel swords breaking and becoming one big sword which he uses to use the Sword Beam on Ywch, defeating him instantly.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Which is inherently much more interesting. "Gain the trust and respect of these people so you can take away their burdens" is much more heroic than a lot of what happens in the series, and emotional work is still work.
    Maybe someday Ichigo would be such a person, a therapist, an analyst or something close to it.

    But Ichigo was still a teenager with PTSD and he was leaning into one way of seeing his name. He is "the one who protects (one/best guardian.)"

    Ichigo has only one move for it is forged out of trauma. He was not way to take away other peoples traumas and layer it onto himself both literally in his psyche but also from a magical science perspective.

    The twist does kind of make sense from a narrative standpoint (could have been better executed / telegraphed at key moments)

    =====

    Likewise for your 2nd point I will argue Mr. Hat and Clogs is merely turning Ichigo into a weapon and actually making his trauma worse even if Ichigo is capable of more and higher level spiritual pressure feats.

    Spoilers for the Anime, from the Thousand Year Blood War Manga

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    Which is ironic once we learn the religious figure Mr Hat and Clogs Banaki represents, which is also in the name of his Bankai "Avalokiteśvara".

    To put it just flat out there, Avalokiteśvara in stories outside Bleach is not anything like Kisuke. This makes you call into question why Mr Hat and Clogs Bankai is Avalokitesvara in the first place and Kisuke may have obtained Bankai in 3 days via a "short cut." Yet perhaps he may not understand his Sword, much like Ichigo does not understand his own Self let alone his Sword.

    Are we truly sure Mr Hat and Clogs is a good mentor or a mentor who is part a Villain who also is trying to do good?
    Last edited by Ramza00; 2022-09-14 at 07:08 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    I'm meh on Ichihime but I definitely think Renjukia was set up well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    Just giving you a heads up, Super Eyepatch Wolf has retracted one of his famous videos with millions of views (it is no longer on his youtube public account) and has done a new one for he felt he misread some signals and did some projection.

    He feels after learning new information in interviews that some of the previous information he shared was untrue.
    Oh I'm aware. I can tell you haven't watched the new one all the way through if you think he changed his mind about Bleach though


    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    TBH this one is actually my biggest complaint about Bleach's plotting - almost every climactic combat is resolved by Ichigo .. looking inside himself and finding the resolve to Sword Harder. His moves are Sword Beam, Bigger Sword Beam, 'Evil' (but actually just a different color of energy) Sword Beam, and Biggest Sword Beam. At least up until Thousand Year Blood War, which I admittedly completely checked out of because I couldn't bring myself to care any more, but I have not seen anything indicating it changed.

    So for me the most disappointing part of the Fullbringer interlude and how it resolved is it would have been a perfect opportunity for Ichigo to be restored with a more personalized power set. Instead the sum of Ichigo's being expresses itself as.. 'I like having a sword'? Really? That's it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Eeeeyup. These were my thoughts back in late 2011 as well. I now have a more nuanced hatred of the ending of that arc, but this was my initial reaction. "He could have gotten something cooler than his other powers".
    Quote Originally Posted by LaZodiac View Post
    The Thousand Year Blood War arc ends with
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    Ichigo's kinda neat quincy duel swords breaking and becoming one big sword which he uses to use the Sword Beam on Ywch, defeating him instantly.
    lol. Oh well. Maybe Hell Arc will be a step up.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I'm meh on Ichihime but I definitely think Renjukia was set up well.



    Oh I'm aware. I can tell you haven't watched the new one all the way through if you think he changed his mind about Bleach though
    My chronic pain condition has been acting up all day, so maybe I did not find the right words to say what I meant.

    He still has complaints but he is not sure the chain of events is what he thought it was earlier, and he also has fondness for the series even if he has complaints. And lastly something about love and being a fan yet still having complaints.
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    I too have a fondness for the series despite my complaints, and I'll definitely be watching 1000YBW. I wouldn't be here otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I too have a fondness for the series despite my complaints, and I'll definitely be watching 1000YBW. I wouldn't be here otherwise.
    Just like to reiterate this. I pick on Bleach because I care.

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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Just like to reiterate this. I pick on Bleach because I care.
    I like Bleach enough to follow the manga if it continues. At least long enough to see if it's any good. I gave up on the anime a loooooong time ago during one of the fillers and I was actually surprised to learn in this thread that it never finished. The series really peaked during the first rescue arc and never quite got good again after that...but that first peak was really good, so I'll vaguely follow along with Bleach content in the hopes that it gets back to that one day. The Blood War arc definitely ain't it though. I remember it being the worst arc overall, so I'm not super excited to see it animated. Lots of screen time spent on characters you're given no reason to care about, and Ichigo's character "growth" is all over the place.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2022-09-15 at 11:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Just like to reiterate this. I pick on Bleach because I care.
    I pick on the Mona Lisa for I care. It is done and thus Bleach is now an artifact and not an active force where one can save it. One can not stop Bleach in the process of it making "new" mistakes.

    Unless you have a Dr. Doom time-machine
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I like Bleach enough to follow the manga if it continues. At least long enough to see if it's any good. I gave up on the anime a loooooong time ago during one of the fillers and I was actually surprised to learn in this thread that it never finished. The series really peaked during the first rescue arc and never quite got good again after that...but that first peak was really good, so I'll vaguely follow along with Bleach content in the hopes that it gets back to that one day. The Blood War arc definitely ain't it though. I remember it being the worst arc overall, so I'm not super excited to see it animated. Lots of screen time spent on characters you're given no reason to care about, and Ichigo's character "growth" is all over the place.
    I mean, if you watched the fillers you only have yourself to blame. I was discussing Bleach with a coworker and he said the same - the Bount arc did for him. The filler arcs were dire, and the Bount arc in particular drove me away until it finished.

    At least they kept them separate though, instead of the way Naruto started integrating them into the main plot and jamming in tons of filler flashback episodes in the middle of a fight.

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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I pick on the Mona Lisa for I care. It is done and thus Bleach is now an artifact and not an active force where one can save it. One can not stop Bleach in the process of it making "new" mistakes.

    Unless you have a Dr. Doom time-machine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I like Bleach enough to follow the manga if it continues. At least long enough to see if it's any good. I gave up on the anime a loooooong time ago during one of the fillers and I was actually surprised to learn in this thread that it never finished. The series really peaked during the first rescue arc and never quite got good again after that...but that first peak was really good, so I'll vaguely follow along with Bleach content in the hopes that it gets back to that one day. The Blood War arc definitely ain't it though. I remember it being the worst arc overall, so I'm not super excited to see it animated. Lots of screen time spent on characters you're given no reason to care about, and Ichigo's character "growth" is all over the place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    I mean, if you watched the fillers you only have yourself to blame. I was discussing Bleach with a coworker and he said the same - the Bount arc did for him. The filler arcs were dire, and the Bount arc in particular drove me away until it finished.

    At least they kept them separate though, instead of the way Naruto started integrating them into the main plot and jamming in tons of filler flashback episodes in the middle of a fight.
    I actually didn't hate the Bount arc. I mean, yeah it was a slog with a whole lot of wasted motion. But the character designs were really cool, and it did provide some additional lore around Mod Souls. Soul Vampires were an interesting idea too even if they kinda didn't go anywhere.

    The Zanpakuto Rebellion filler arc was similar - cool concept, very cool character designs, molasses plotting and weird motivations.

    Honestly my main regret with early 00's anime is that streaming wasn't a thing yet so they're too afraid to just go on hiatus when they catch up to the manga.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    The best arcs of Bleach were the first two, where his editors made suggestions ad helped him finalize ideas but for the most part let him do what he wanted to do at a pace he was comfortable with—I think the only hard demand they made was to not drag his feat if he was planning on switching to an overarching plot instead of staying monster of the week.

    After that he had differant editors who made more demands of him and we know that some of those demands led directly to the problems in later arcs.
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The best arcs of Bleach were the first two, where his editors made suggestions ad helped him finalize ideas but for the most part let him do what he wanted to do at a pace he was comfortable with—I think the only hard demand they made was to not drag his feat if he was planning on switching to an overarching plot instead of staying monster of the week.

    After that he had differant editors who made more demands of him and we know that some of those demands led directly to the problems in later arcs.
    It's a pretty common problem with manga that I've noticed. They'll start good but as they gain popularity the author is forced to listen to editors less and less and they'll go off the rails. Editors exist for a reason. They're usually a good thing.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    It's a pretty common problem with manga that I've noticed. They'll start good but as they gain popularity the author is forced to listen to editors less and less and they'll go off the rails. Editors exist for a reason. They're usually a good thing.
    Also with streaming tv, perhaps Economics has something to do with this if it impacts multiple media institutions, perhaps there are mediators in the system

    (but yeah also for other reasons, for example a pitch is often practiced the most, and the first arc is perfectly structured for its goal is to capture your attention, while inertia is what "drives" you forward into future arcs, not just "desire.")
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    It's a pretty common problem with manga that I've noticed. They'll start good but as they gain popularity the author is forced to listen to editors less and less and they'll go off the rails. Editors exist for a reason. They're usually a good thing.
    Except with Bleach it was literally the opposite problem, Kubo listened to his editors more but... They weren't good editors.

    Except for the first batch, who actually did their jobs.

    The editor's job is to keep things on track and editorial demands are almost always associated with a worse product—leaving anime aside for example, one of the most Infamous Storylines in American superhero comics was done because Marvel's Editor in Chief didn't think a married superhero was relatable and demanded the marriage be split up.
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    My problem with Bleach was that Kubo was more interested in introducing new characters and designs than telling a satisfying story. Not sure you can possibly blame that on editors.

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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    My problem with Bleach was that Kubo was more interested in introducing new characters and designs than telling a satisfying story. Not sure you can possibly blame that on editors.
    You can actually: He makes characters to cope with writer's block.

    One of the sources of his writers block in the series was the batch of editors he had in the middle portion demanding that he spend more time on certain arcs in order to emphasize the elements they liked.
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Editors can be both a good and a bad thing. Without editors, Toriyama would have reportedly stopped Dragonball after the Pilaf saga - no Krillin, no Tenkaichi Budokai, no Red Ribbon etc.
    His editors are also the reason we got Androids #17, #18 and Cell, he was originally only going to do Gero + 19.

    Buuuuuut... his editors are also the reason Gohan was wasted after the Cell Saga, and they're behind a lot of the problems that showed up in the Buu saga too. They also initially were against Goku growing up in the first place.

    So I don't think it can ever be as simple as "editors good" / "editors bad." Like with any creative endeavor, too much influence on one end of the scale and the whole thing tips over.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    ...I feel the need to clarify that I never said "editors bad."

    I said that editorial interference was part of the problem with Bleach and that excessive editorial interference is commonly associated with bad stories.
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    The editor's job is to keep things on track and editorial demands are almost always associated with a worse product—leaving anime aside for example, one of the most Infamous Storylines in American superhero comics was done because Marvel's Editor in Chief didn't think a married superhero was relatable and demanded the marriage be split up.
    Was going to say "it is more complicated" than that, then I realized this has happen more than one time so I am not 100% sure of the example you are using

    (please do NOT tell me which one you were thinking of)
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Editors can be both a good and a bad thing. Without editors, Toriyama would have reportedly stopped Dragonball after the Pilaf saga - no Krillin, no Tenkaichi Budokai, no Red Ribbon etc.
    His editors are also the reason we got Androids #17, #18 and Cell, he was originally only going to do Gero + 19.

    Buuuuuut... his editors are also the reason Gohan was wasted after the Cell Saga, and they're behind a lot of the problems that showed up in the Buu saga too. They also initially were against Goku growing up in the first place.

    So I don't think it can ever be as simple as "editors good" / "editors bad." Like with any creative endeavor, too much influence on one end of the scale and the whole thing tips over.
    I wish I could peek into an alternate universe and read the alternate Android Saga.

    Because as cool as Cell was, the plot of the Cell Saga is riddled with holes as a result of the continuing changes demanded by the editors. Toriyama did an incredible job of patching them, but we're still left with an arc I liked less than the Freeza Saga because every time I think about it my head does that quizzical tilt dogs do.

    I'm super curious what could have been, and whether Toriyama had any deeper plans that got tossed in the trash when he was forced to change villains multiple times.

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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    I have a hard time seeing how he could have ever made the original androids a credible threat. Morbidly obese clown robot is not exactly a design that radiates danger. Putting them aside in favor of 17/18 and Cell was the right choice.
    Last edited by Anteros; 2022-09-16 at 05:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I have a hard time seeing how he could have ever made the original androids a credible threat. Morbidly obese clown robot is not exactly a design that radiates danger. Putting them aside in favor of 17/18 and Cell was the right choice.
    17 and 18 would have made better villains than Cell IMO. You can even keep the part where they end up not being pure evil, just kinda petty and confused.

    I never liked Cell, and as time has gone on I think my opinion on the Cell saga as a whole has degenerated quite a bit. It has some hype moments, buried under a lot of trash. I actually think the Buu saga overall is better than Cell.

    Cell as a villain is a big part of this. Or, at least, Semi-perfect and Perfect Cell are. Perfect Cell is just Frieza 2.0, and Semi-perfect is too single-minded to really be an interesting villain.

    Imperfect Cell is indiscriminate enough to be interesting. Truly monstrous in a way the other forms aren't.

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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Anteros View Post
    I have a hard time seeing how he could have ever made the original androids a credible threat. Morbidly obese clown robot is not exactly a design that radiates danger. Putting them aside in favor of 17/18 and Cell was the right choice.
    I don't know I thought their introduction was fine and menacing at least in the anime. Of course its impossible to know what he had planned. I thought semi perfect cell had a truly terrible design.

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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    I like Cell, but I may be conflating the original with the abridged version a bit. It's been like 20 years or so since I've seen the original.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So I don't think it can ever be as simple as "editors good" / "editors bad." Like with any creative endeavor, too much influence on one end of the scale and the whole thing tips over.
    We tend to have much more contact with creators than editors, so we only hear about the bad interference--few creators are going to say "Yeah, my version of this story was a meandering mess, but the editor really tightened it up and made it work!" publicly.
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War



    Another trailer dropped. It doesn't really add too much new information, but it does show that they're changing color pallets to be more show accurate.
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post


    Another trailer dropped. It doesn't really add too much new information, but it does show that they're changing color pallets to be more show accurate.
    Not sure if I like the color change. Sure it is pretty, and full of talent.

    But part of me is nostalgic for the D-tecnoLife 2nd opening of bleach where hair color and so on was very specific and yeah this is nostalgia
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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    That trailer seemed really bad honestly. Music was unfitting and most of the dialogue was completely pointless and didn't set the tone at all.

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    Default Re: Bleach: The Thousand Year Blood War

    I loved it, not a long trailer but hype music and everyone calling of their attack names is a great way to build excitement.
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