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Thread: Cheating in chess
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2022-10-27, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
There is, generally, a world of difference between 16 and 19. However, as you yourself point out, chess is a young person's game, and the upper echelons of chess have no shortage of yoots. And yet they can, for the most part eschew cheating, even young as they are.
If teenagers or younger want to play on the same field as adults, then they get treated the same as adults. Their age does not protect them from writing a check their ass can't cash in these situations.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2022-10-27, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
He didn't cheat at 19 though, he cheated at 12 and 16/17.
True, and playing against older more experienced opponents is really importent for a developing chess player so cutting them off would be stunting their growth.
Overall he isn't much worse then how tilted Hikaru could get when he was younger. He himself admitted he had a ton of mellowing out to do on Lex Friedman's podcast recently where he mentioned knowing he had streaming as a real and steady source of income had had a big effect on how he used to act when he lost games as a kid.
Yea I'm not fan of the rules for some people and not others thing. If the chess community wants to purge everyone person who ever cheated online do so but don't pick out one guy because he pissed off King Magnus to be the face of the issue and burn his life to the ground after he seems to have gotten his life together and started working harder at the actual game. Assuming that narrative is true at least.
I dunno, temper tantrum does feel too harsh, but only barely and because I feel like what he did has been too calculated to be just a spur of the moment bit of anger.
So he had actually played that line before, but he transposed into it and it was against someone other then who Hans said he played during the post game interview. Which is an easy enough mistake to make and I could honestly believe that since he was a last second replacement into the game he had been cramming up till the last moment and just got the details wrong. He seems a bit scatterbrained at the best of tim
The prolonged silence could be damning in front of a jury if it actually gets that far, and could go to reckless disregard for the truth since he was able to see it had been taken as a statement he was calling Hans a cheater but went radio silent. The real argument will be the question of what he meant by sharing the meme in the first place and if you can even ascribe a specific definition to a meme clip being shared supposedly out of context from an interview that took place many years ago and has been potentially been shared and shared again many times and who knows how many contexts.
Hikaru is poo stirrer extraordinaire, and if Hans is innocent he has absolutely earned the right to some of the shade he has been throwing. In particular his bit about chess streamers and commentators right Cristian Chirila's face had me dead.
Hikaru did a lot to magnify it. I don't particularly think it was a conspiracy but given the way things dovetailed together so cleanly I can see how someone could.
And the adults have gotten a pass for their online cheating as well, because up until this exact moment no one cared unless you cheated OTB.Last edited by Dragonus45; 2022-10-27 at 01:12 PM.
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2022-10-27, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
I agree wholeheartedly, and think they should all be outed as such. As for whether they continue to play in tournaments and prize competitions, thats for the organizers to say. Unless people cheat OTB, I don't much care either way.
I also agree, and cheating online for more clout and money (explicitly the reasons Neimann claimed when he admitted to cheating previously) does nothing to spur such potential growth and is solely for building their own personal brand. Once it's known, people can make their own choices about whether to keep backing the player.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2022-10-27, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
Speaking of cheating will always exist.....
"That's a horrible idea! What time?"
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2022-10-27, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
Considering the disconnect that existed before and the simple fact that Chess.com and FIDE are two separate organizations with separate rules and procedures the answer is to actually figure out the official policy for this and get it clearly stated before grandfathering existing players in under the new rules.
And? Sure he had silly reasons for cheating and assuming his current ELO is legit trying to go into streaming was pretty clearly taking his focus away from actual chess, but I don't particularly care about a 16 year old cheating at online chess, getting caught, and then cleaning up his act and moving on with their life and all reasons to cheat are pretty silly.Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.
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2022-10-27, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
No? To the best of my knowledge, chesscom doesn't give FIDE ratings and has no FIDE ranked games, and there is no known issue with people cheating in FIDE tournaments. FIDE can make their own determinations on what happens when players are caught cheating playing games outside of their system. As can any private organization that holds prize competitions as to who can enter or be invited.
I don't see the disconnect here. If Tiger Woods cheats in a charity game it doesn't affect his PGA record but it should still be published.
And if caught, it should be noted. I don't see the issue here.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2022-10-27, 03:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
FIDE isn't making that decision though, they already cleared him of wrongdoing and have made clear they do not care about any of their players being caught cheating in online chess. It would be hypocritical to suddenly start banning him from events retroactively for a rule that does not currently exist when they have let this slide for a ton of other people and would probably never go for mass banning like that. And ultimately it's not FIDE or the people organizing specific tournaments making the decision to ban him from inviationals. It's Magnus strong arming them to pick between the two of them.
I was saying and to the commentary about why he cheated. There isn't a good reason to cheat and all the reasons people gave in the report or in response to it were equally stupid and probably just excuses. Parham Maghsoodloo's "I wanted to see if you were good enough to catch me, I didn't want the money at all" for example is an interesting claim. I'm even inclined to believe him. Doesn't make it any less cheating.
As for it being noted? People do notice when your Chess.com account gets banned and generally it isn't hard to work out why. They didn't bump into Magnus' ego though so no retroactive punishment for them I guess.Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.
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2022-10-27, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
Ok, I'm not sure what you're arguing with me about here. I've never said that FIDE should ban Neimann. I've never said that Neimann has cheated OTB (and would wager he hasn't as there is no evidence whatsoever that he did). I did say that FIDE should make their own determination about continued association with him (and, by extension, any other player) at their own discretion, which you seemingly agree with (and which you note they have done). I did say that the organizers of other tournaments should also make their own determination about continued association with Neimann (and, by extension, any other player). You seemingly agree with this as well.
What, exactly, are you disagreeing with me about here?
Again, what exactly are you disagreeing with me here? Neimann cheated previously. Chess.com has issued a statement saying that they privately reached out and dealt with him regarding this previously. Neimann has not refuted this and has admitted, on his own, to cheating previously. Neimann, prior to recent events and prior to his confessions of cheating, still had a chess.com account.
Magnus can be an egotistical jerk who is upset that he lost his shot at the prize and separately those who cheat should also have it be known that they cheat. Both things can happen.
Again, if you have a professional competition player who cheats while playing, even if done outside of the scope of their professional competition, it should be published as discovered. I'm not saying they should be banned from anything, I'm not saying they should be removed from any events. I'm only saying that the public that supports the person has the right to know. His stated reason for doing this (IE money and fame) bolsters this argument, he fe my pointing it out.
I really don't see why there would be any pushback against that assertion.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2022-10-27, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
No shortage of hwat?
Sorry, could not help myself. Also a great movie showing pretty accurately how criminal court proceedings in US work.In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.
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2022-10-27, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-10-27, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2022-10-27, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
An article I saw earlier today: https://cyclingtips.com/2022/10/ches...was-he-really/
tl;dr: Niemann said in an interview with ChessLife, published in 2021, that he had been a top cyclist in the Netherlands, and was ranked #3 in the US for his age. Cycling Tips has investigated both claims, and found that the former is hard to verify due to (a) lack of specificity in the claim, and (b) absence of reliable records for the period. The second claim has been proven false by examining rankings from the relevant period.
It's not directly relevant to the chess furore, obviously, but Niemann is staking a lot on his integrity and this is an instance of his lying on the record, well after his admitted cheating "phase".
What puzzles me more than anything is why he lied about this. Saying simply "I cycled at a high level", which seems to be true, is likely to elicit the same level of impression from chess fans, i.e. a bit but not that much, and it is (as proven) fairly easily falsifiable to claim a ranking he never got close to. So why lie? That there is no benefit to the lie makes it all the more curious. There isn't enough of an established pattern here to make even an armchair-psychologist diagnosis as to why, but it does seem like his relationship with the truth in a public-facing capacity is, er, non-exclusive.Last edited by Aedilred; 2022-10-27 at 09:46 PM.
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2022-10-27, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-10-27, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
Interestingly, all the automotive details are also spot-on. Level of attention to details was astonishing.
Still, trying to inflate his reputation like that is in a really bad taste. This is not all that unusual as there are people who just like to boast and like to invent or at least jazz up stories about themselves. It almost never works though and I am wondering why anyone tries this in the long run.
I know about Waitzkin mostly because he made a really good tutorial for the Chessmaster game (3000 I think?). Did not know about his achievements in martial arts - quite impressive.In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.
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2022-10-27, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
I said I wasn't going to do an armchair-psychology thing on Niemann but I've changed my mind. Here is my totally uninformed, unqualified hypothesis.
Deep down, he wants respect within the chess community. It must sting him to see contemporaries like Firouzja being feted when he is something of a pariah. But he's probably also aware that the stain of the admitted cheating is going to be almost impossible to erase and to claw his way back into the good graces of the international chess community will be a steep uphill struggle. The only concrete way to really establish some kind of status is therefore to put in performances that are so good that he can't be ignored. In practice, this means winning the world championship. Become a world champion and your reputation will survive, inter alia, collaboration with Nazis, spouting antisemitic conspiracy theories, and advocacy for gibberish like the Fomenko timeline.
But while he's a very good player, he may also be aware that he's not quite good enough to earn a permanent seat at the very top table or take a realistic crack at the title unless something strange happens. Carlsen has plenty of gas in the tank timewise and the main threat to his continued reign as "king of chess" in Niemann's own words, for at least another ten years, is probably his losing interest. Firouzja is the obvious heir presumptive, and he's younger than Niemann. There are several other players out there of similar quality. At best Niemann is likely to end up a perpetual "bridesmaid", like Caruana. So (re)gaining the respect he craves is unlikely through performance is unlikely to happen.
So how can he (re)gain the respect he craves? He can bootlick his way back into favour, grovelling and forelock-tugging and making public shows of atonement, building up enough credit in humility that eventually people forgive him for the cheating. This kind of thing can work! Wesley So's reputation has not been seriously damaged by the bizarre hate-speech incident, although it's worth noting that there his reputation as a nice guy was sufficiently well-established that it was obviously very out of character, and his explanation of a hack seems to have been readily accepted.
But it's probably not a very attractive course to anyone with a real ego (which Niemann obviously has) especially since it's not guaranteed to work anyway. So instead he self-sabotages by playing up his impulse to be a jerk, telling him he doesn't care whether his opponents like or respect him, and therefore he's going to return the lack of favour. It's a toxic attitude, but it's in a family of approaches that's familiar to anyone who's ever failed to apply for a job they want because they don't want to be rejected.
Underneath though, he still wants that respect, so he exaggerates his accomplishments in interviews, and bristles at criticisms of his chess performances. And now he sees the opportunity to score a technical victory against his critics, so he sues the biggest names in chess for damage to the reputation which in his own mind he deserves.
(Ironically, that same impulse to win respect through game performance may also make him more inclined to continue to cheat in order to improve his results - which is not to say that he necessarily has cheated).
Anyway, that's my hot take on Niemann's state of mind in all this.
Presumably because Missouri has limited anti-SLAPP laws; it also has a tenable connection to the case in that it's where the match took place. But whether Missouri has jurisdiction over all the causes of action and all the defendants is an interesting question and one that will presumably be tested early.Last edited by Aedilred; 2022-10-28 at 12:03 AM.
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2022-10-28, 04:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2022-10-28, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
He'll have had to pick a state with relevance to the case. That means a state where one of the parties is based (Connecticut, Florida, California, possibly Arizona) or Missouri, where the incident took place. All of them have anti-SLAPP laws. I don't know how these compare, but according to a video I saw on YT (a highly reliable source) Missouri's anti-SLAPP is relatively weak.
Last edited by Aedilred; 2022-10-28 at 08:41 AM.
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2022-10-28, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
Sorry, when I said he shouldn't be banned and you replied saying they had the right too it seemed like you saying he should be banned and not just saying they would have the right to ban him. Sorry I misunderstood.
Well, the Chess.com account has some internal logical inconsistencies around what they new and when, Ben Finegold of all people had a great breakdown of the report really and you should check it out. Plus it's blatantly hypocritical at best and fairly suspect at worstthat they chose to name and shame and then ban only him years after the fact and not any of the other people who have ever cheated on there.Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
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2022-10-28, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
I don't really see how it's hypocritical, or that suspect really. They do ban players for cheating all the time, but few of them have this kind of profile so you don't hear about it.
Producing this kind of report is probably pretty labour-intensive, and while they have anti-cheat bots constantly in operation they only inspect a small fraction of games of their own volition. A full investigation of an individual is only going to happen on the basis of a specific suspicion or tip-off. Likewise, the police keep an eye out for crime happening under their noses, but they don't make a habit of investigating random individuals for no reason; that's a waste of time and resources. They only look into the people who catch their eye, and we don't expect them to do anything else. And yeah, there is a lot of chaff to wade through around the question of who gets investigated and precisely why and who doesn't, but in principle, the idea that the police only investigate people they have a reason to investigate is uncontroversial.
I don't think chess.com are claiming that this report was coincidental, rather that it was a response to the implication (from Carlsen) and the loud yelling (from Hikaru) that Niemann's play was suspect and Niemann's equally loud protestations that he was clean. It seems fair enough to me for them to conduct such an investigation under the circumstances. Whether the methodology is flawed is a different question.GITP Blood Bowl Manager Cup
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2022-10-28, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
They process they have is pretty clear and well outlined in their report and it's emails. They ban the cheater, and if they apologize they let them open up a new account with a clean slate. Clean slate being the key word here. As far as I know they don't have anyone who they have come back to years later and retroactively banned a clean account with no cheating on it.
Of course it was produced because of all the hullaballoo Magnus and Hikaru kicked up. They banned him for the same reason, not for anything he actually did.Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
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2022-10-28, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Cheating in chess
The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color; they use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit, as long as it's blue.
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2022-10-28, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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