Darksun

[MisterD]

With new anti-slave race and away from evil races
How will they do DARKSUN?

[Sigreid]

With new anti-slave race and away from evil races
How will they do DARKSUN?

If the trend holds, they'll put out a book with a few character options and virtually no setting information and call it a Dark Sun campaign.

[t209]

Consider that they changed it to Doomspace and Thri Keen seems to be armed with iron weapon and traveling in space (in fact, Athas is marked as no fly zone due to being too dang hellish and no magic for Spelljammer to operate in previous editions), probably going for “spiritual successor” or distant sequel (aka the awful meta plot that 4E tried to retcon).
Well, they can still work with no evil races…the thing is that all of them are pragmatic heroes or anti heroes.

[AttilatheYeon]

Just because they are doing away from evil races doesn't mean there wont be evil people around. In a world were everyone is at least problematic, I'm sure there will still be sorcerer kings and cannibal hobbits running around.

Course I also agree that it will be very light on actual setting details and mostly just have a few character ideas.

[LibraryOgre]

I will say, this is one place that having all the old setting materials available through Drivethru is a boon... if you want a lot of Dark Sun setting material, you can get it easily, and fairly cheaply.

"How to Dark Sun in 5e" can have subclasses and races and backgrounds... and a reference to the campaign setting for 2e and/or 4e.

[Naanomi]

Good Psionics and however they handle defiling/preserving is at least as much a barrier as the setting components

[Brookshw]

Consider that they changed it to Doomspace and Thri Keen seems to be armed with iron weapon and traveling in space (in fact, Athas is marked as no fly zone due to being too dang hellish and no magic for Spelljammer to operate in previous editions), probably going for “spiritual successor” or distant sequel (aka the awful meta plot that 4E tried to retcon).
Well, they can still work with no evil races…the thing is that all of them are pragmatic heroes or anti heroes.

What did 4e do to the setting? (Also, Troy Denning kinda fubard the whole 2e thing through his novels to begin with).

[Naanomi]

What did 4e do to the setting? (Also, Troy Denning kinda fubard the whole 2e thing through his novels to begin with).

Killed the backstory by tying it all to their 'dawn war' stuff... Pushed elementals as the main generic enemy... Added a bunch of 4e races (genasi, tiefling, Eladrin elves) and significantly altered many established races (Kreen, half-giants, dray)... Messed with the unique cosmology by tying in the Feywild and Shadowfel... Partially rolled back the timeline but still made allusions to post Prism Pentad stuff occasionally... Made defiler/preserver distinction largely fluff (with some supporting feats and stuff)... Templar class became a warlock thing so lost healing...

[JackPhoenix]

With new anti-slave race and away from evil races
How will they do DARKSUN?

They won't. It's for the best, if you like Dark Sun, because the current WotC team insists on proving again and again they'll ruin anything they touch.

[Brookshw]

Killed the backstory by tying it all to their 'dawn war' stuff... Pushed elementals as the main generic enemy... Added a bunch of 4e races (genasi, tiefling, Eladrin elves) and significantly altered many established races (Kreen, half-giants, dray)... Messed with the unique cosmology by tying in the Feywild and Shadowfel... Partially rolled back the timeline but still made allusions to post Prism Pentad stuff occasionally... Made defiler/preserver distinction largely fluff (with some supporting feats and stuff)... Templar class became a warlock thing so lost healing...

I can see the templar stuff, but to the rest, the fu.......?

[Luccan]

Unless I missed an announcement or leak, I really don't think Darksun is going to happen

[LibraryOgre]

Unless I missed an announcement or leak, I really don't think Darksun is going to happen

Ironically for Athas, hope springs eternal.

[Lord Torath]

(Also, Troy Denning kinda fubard the whole 2e thing through his novels to begin with).

I fully agree with you here. The original setting set up all these super-powerful beings and opponents and said: Go, become powerful, and do something about these! Remake the face of Athas!

Then Troy Denning and the Revised setting said: Nevermind. We decided to have all these uber-cool, angsty NPCs do it all for you. You're welcome! Go back to the small stuff.

In general, I'm mostly okay with letting Rikus & Co take down Kalak, but I think they should all go down in the process. Maybe Agis could survive to head up the Council of Tyr, but the rest ought to remove themselves from the setting, so the PCs can shine.

I prefer to think of The Prism Pentad as an example of the kinds of things your PCs should get up to, rather than what actually happened.

[Naanomi]

I can see the templar stuff, but to the rest, the fu.......?

I noticed a general trend in 4e development to make everything (races, lore, mechanics) fit into the 4e established mould rather than make new things appropriate to the setting. It's how we got Astral Spelljammer (the astral being more central to the new cosmology), Dragonborn replacing every draconic race in every setting... and how we got primordial-tied Darksun backstory etc.

The end result was 4e wearing a Darksun costume rather than a 4e version of existing Darksun vibe/setting

[Brookshw]

I fully agree with you here. Troy had his characters do all the things you really wanted to have your characters do. I tend to view the Pentad as an example of the kinds of things your PCs should be able to pull off on Athas, rather than what actually happened.

In general, I'm mostly okay with letting Rikus & Co take down Kalak, but I think they should all go down in the process. Maybe Agis could survive to head up the Council of Tyr, but the rest ought to remove themselves from the setting, so the PCs can shine.

I didn't mind the Kalak takedown because it gives the a different starting point which provides variety to the types of games you can run in the setting, didn't much care one way or the other if Rikus & Co. survive, but don't care if they did. But killing Boris and a bunch of the Sorcerer Kings, and restoring rain? That was just writing out the hallmarks of the setting.

Though I do think that the surfer druids of the Lost Sea expansion remains one of my favorite things in D&D to this day.

[LibraryOgre]

(Also, Troy Denning kinda fubard the whole 2e thing through his novels to begin with).

You know what I think they should have done, with 30 years of hindsight?

Killing Kalak is the very last part of the last book of the Pentad.

So, you start with Rikus as a slave and introduce Sadira to the Veiled Alliance and Agis starts out as the typical spoiled noble who owns both of them. Your first book, the three of them bond, possibly with Tithain being part of their group... but then taking all of the credit.

Book Two is still a War with Urik.

Book three is foiling a Dragon Sacrifice (not killing Borys... just foiling the sacrifice)
Book four is expedition to the Ringing Mountains for an artifact that will help oppose Kalak
Book five is the death of Kalak.

You start the campaign setting THERE. Kalak is dead. You have a republic in the Tablelands. Other powers are orienting towards Tyr, to see what happens next.

[Brookshw]

You know what I think they should have done, with 30 years of hindsight?

Killing Kalak is the very last part of the last book of the Pentad.

So, you start with Rikus as a slave and introduce Sadira to the Veiled Alliance and Agis starts out as the typical spoiled noble who owns both of them. Your first book, the three of them bond, possibly with Tithain being part of their group... but then taking all of the credit.

Book Two is still a War with Urik.

Book three is foiling a Dragon Sacrifice (not killing Borys... just foiling the sacrifice)
Book four is expedition to the Ringing Mountains for an artifact that will help oppose Kalak
Book five is the death of Kalak.

You start the campaign setting THERE. Kalak is dead. You have a republic in the Tablelands. Other powers are orienting towards Tyr, to see what happens next.

I like the cut of your jib. That would have been much better than effectively nuking the premise and major conflicts of the setting.

[Sigreid]

My personal and uncharitable opinion is that anyone who has a setting they really like should pray that current WoTC ignores it. No good can come of this lot messing about with your favorite setting.

[LibraryOgre]

I like the cut of your jib. That would have been much better than effectively nuking the premise and major conflicts of the setting.

TBF, I think that should be the way to do most setting-defining fiction... don't write the story of the modules, write the story leading up to the modules.

I think Birthright may have eventually done that, but I can't remember the novel about Michael Roele disappearing.

[Naanomi]

As much as I love the Darksun setting, I'm not sure it would be as... Impactful... now as it once was. Turning all the Tolkien tropes on their head was really innovative at the time of release; but now most settings play with the bulk of the classic expectations to some degree; so the mass subversion just doesn't have the oomph that it once held

[PhantomSoul]

If the trend holds, they'll put out a book with a few character options and virtually no setting information and call it a Dark Sun campaign.

Honestly, this might even be too generous... you forgot to mention how astonishingly bland and disconnected from any interesting narrative/lore the character options would be!

They won't. It's for the best, if you like Dark Sun, because the current WotC team insists on proving again and again they'll ruin anything they touch.

Sounds about right.

[LibraryOgre]

As much as I love the Darksun setting, I'm not sure it would be as... Impactful... now as it once was. Turning all the Tolkien tropes on their head was really innovative at the time of release; but now most settings play with the bulk of the classic expectations to some degree; so the mass subversion just doesn't have the oomph that it once held

I mean, the dino-riding halflings of Eberron weren't exactly the cannibal halflings of Dark Sun, but they definitely shared some DNA.

[Khrysaes]

I mean, the dino-riding halflings of Eberron weren't exactly the cannibal halflings of Dark Sun, but they definitely shared some DNA.

They CAN be cannibal dino-riding halflings though.

[JadedDM]

As much as I love the Darksun setting, I'm not sure it would be as... Impactful... now as it once was. Turning all the Tolkien tropes on their head was really innovative at the time of release; but now most settings play with the bulk of the classic expectations to some degree; so the mass subversion just doesn't have the oomph that it once held

I've been thinking the same thing about Planescape. The main appeal was how wild and alien it was. Like, wow, Tieflings, Aasimar and Genasi! But those are just like, normal, now, in every setting. So I'm wondering how appealing 5E Planescape will be when it comes out.

[Brookshw]

TBF, I think that should be the way to do most setting-defining fiction... don't write the story of the modules, write the story leading up to the modules.

I think Birthright may have eventually done that, but I can't remember the novel about Michael Roele disappearing.

That's a big part of my disinterest in Dragonlance, and agreed on the proposed approach.

As to Birthright, the only setting I know less about is Red Steel, so I'm no expert, but I do recall a novel involving the Gorgon, and my recollection is that it seemed like it took place in the "live" setting

@JadedDM, my concern with PS at the moment is that for it to work we'd basically need a new Manual of the Planes, and based on how SJ gutted the setting to the point which calling it 'bare bones' is generous, it doesn't seem like we'd get anything meaty enough that you could work with it (unless you rely upon 2e content), probably get something about Sigil.

[t209]

What did 4e do to the setting? (Also, Troy Denning kinda fubard the whole 2e thing through his novels to begin with).

To answer this, I meant Troy Denning one.

[Naanomi]

I've been thinking the same thing about Planescape. The main appeal was how wild and alien it was. Like, wow, Tieflings, Aasimar and Genasi! But those are just like, normal, now, in every setting. So I'm wondering how appealing 5E Planescape will be when it comes out.

It is probably more doable though... A Sigil based adventure book, a Manual of the Planes, a Planar Monster Manual... No need to create psionics or defiling or anything before implementation

Maybe it won't have the exotic feel of 2e Planescape, but it will still be a serviceable setting

[t209]

It is probably more doable though... A Sigil based adventure book, a Manual of the Planes, a Planar Monster Manual... No need to create psionics or defiling or anything before implementation

Maybe it won't have the exotic feel of 2e Planescape, but it will still be a serviceable setting

To be honest, I think Planescape is famous because of the videogame adaptation.
Not sure what else unique about it other than "multiverse hub" and OP's description (at least back when Tiefling and Aasimar were new before they became common place, especially the former).
ORRR...part of me had idea of handing it to Black Isles or InExile as "Fallout but Fantasy" (maybe even a cartoon mascot in UI for comedic relief) for exposure.

[Naanomi]

To be honest, I think Planescape is famous because of the videogame adaptation.
Not sure what else unique about it other than "multiverse hub" and OP's description

Planescape had a lot of charm as a setting, the expectation to run around places most settings just used as background pieces... Well implemented examples of meta-plot modules (Modron March most prominently, but also Tales of the Infinite Staircase and Dead Gods)... And perhaps most uniquely at the time: a big expectation on massive power level disparities between characters and the setting which demanded social and clever play; with level 1 yahoos sneaking their way through the hells or talking their way out of confrontation from a legion of fire mephits or the like

However I will also admit that my great personal love of the larger Great Wheel cosmology that was largely developed in Planescape material may also color my own preference for the setting

[t209]

Planescape had a lot of charm as a setting, the expectation to run around places most settings just used as background pieces... Well implemented examples of meta-plot modules (Modron March most prominently, but also Tales of the Infinite Staircase and Dead Gods)... And perhaps most uniquely at the time: a big expectation on massive power level disparities between characters and the setting which demanded social and clever play; with level 1 yahoos sneaking their way through the hells or talking their way out of confrontation from a legion of fire mephits or the like

However I will also admit that my great personal love of the larger Great Wheel cosmology that was largely developed in Planescape material may also color my own preference for the setting

Well, I guess this is how much basing my views from the videogame version, even if it's well-made (mostly it's memorable characters, environment design, and storyline), tends to leave out.