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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by 137beth View Post
    This is a very strange take. The main idea for the Bechdel Test was inspired by Virginia Wolf's A Room of One's Own (1929), which predates much of the literature in Appendix N. It later became known as the "Bechdel Test" because Allison Bechdel turned it into the punchline for a comic in 1985, which was less than a decade after the publication of AD&D.

    Moreover, the Bechdel Test doesn't penalize a work for being old: some Shakespeare plays "pass" the test, while plenty of 21st century works fail.
    yeah, true, that was not well stated. What I ought to have said is "most of these stories are written by men who grew up prior to the 1950's, you can probably guess how they will measure up to today's standards." I guess I was making a jump in logic in assuming what the OP was actually asking for, rather than limiting my thought to just the Bechdel test. What they really wanted to ask, imo, is "how many of these stories have antiquated portrayals of women that people might find unenjoyable." - which, as everyone has stated, is not something the Bechdel test can actually tell you. If their main concern is that there are women in the story with speaking roles, then the test will be sufficient, otherwise it doesn't say much.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Personally I'm a bigger fan of the Sexy Lamp Test. Also flawed, but does not automatically fail single-female-character works and the like.
    Does it apply to works at all? I think I know this one from other contexts and doesn't it work on characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    … sure? Which means, we’ve probably had a communication breakdown at some point.
    OK, is that "I already knew that part" or is there something else that is missing, because I can't fix it off of just that.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    OK, is that "I already knew that part" or is there something else that is missing, because I can't fix it off of just that.
    Fair. I was and am too scatterbrained to evaluate it at the moment beyond “I knew that; if you were posting that because you thought I didn’t (or, more importantly, read something I wrote to have indicated or have been indicative of the opposite), then we’ve likely had a breakdown in communication”.

    I, admittedly, initially only considered the possibility of the parenthetical.

    Make more sense? Or should I get some sleep?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2022-09-19 at 06:03 PM.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    To Quertus: I didn't think you didn't know, because I didn't know either way. Plus it seemed to be something the thread in general was having trouble with it so I decided to reiterate the point just for safety. It doesn't say a lot about a work, so collect up results, compare them with the reverse Bechdel test or your expectations. Which is actually how I first encountered it, someone explained the test to me and asked me to guess the proportion of blockbuster movies that pass the test. I did and then they gave me the actual number.

    I have since forgotten both numbers, but I remember my guess was very wrong.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    I think in general we also have to realize that Gygax was primarily looking at fiction sources which detailed the environment, genre, and mechanics of the kinds of fantasy setting he envisioned. It was about a reading list to provide ideas for DMs for writing adventure plots, and traps, encounters, weapons, magic, opponents, mystical beasts, curses, etc. I doubt he was looking much at character dialog, which is what the Bechdel Test focuses on.

    Having said that, I recall a long time ago, when first encountering the Bechdel Test, also thinking that it was a bit silly and not terribly relevant. And when assessing a single story, it does have some serious flaws. However, it is an interesting tool to use to look at broader aspects of storytelling as a whole, and to what degree male characters tend to dominate as the primary focus of those stories, with female characters often relegated to being essentially an appendage to the male character(s) actions. It's not about "this story" or "that story", but "look at how many stories all have this same aspect to them".

    And yeah. It can be a bit eye-opening when you start looking around at stories that we might otherwise view as "perfectly normal", and realize how few of them have female characters who operate independently of a more dominant male agency. Now, to be fair, the test is flawed in that it fails to address the fact that many settings for stories may themselves be in time periods or locations where such male dominated factors existed. So a female protagonist may be forced (due to setting) to interact primarily with male characters. In fact, a lot of fiction where the point is to show this problem (and where said problem is an obstacle that the female character has to fight and overcome) actually fail the test itself.

    I think it's also important to make a distinction between stories that are more focused on action/events than interaction/dialogue. The former, pretty much regardless of the main character(s), are less dependent on dialogue, so passing or failing is less significant as well. If you have a story where it's a lot of folks talking and interacting socially, and you're failing the test, that is something to look at, even if just in terms of character choices in the work itself. I do find it interesting, however, how many sci-fi films do actually pass the test (despite often being action/event focused), while other more character and dialogue driven films do not.

    So yeah. More of a conversation starter IMO. Trying to place strict "this is good/bad" assessments as a result is problematic. It can also lead to tokenism if taken literally and applied by aspiring writers, which is also not a great thing. If you intentionally wrote an extra piece of conversation between two characters just so you can literally pass the test, you're kinda missing the point.


    Also, at the risk of circling back to an earlier point, a lot of fantasy settings themselves are modeled after time periods in which male and female societal roles were more biologically driven than they are today. Modern medicine has changed the equation to a massive degree. So I think that holding societies without those advantages to the same standard can be problematic. I tend to give stories in older historical settings a heck of a lot more leeway than ones that are set in relatively modern times.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Early S&S isn't really a genre long on talking in general. There isn't much expository speech making and the stories aren't really about relationships. The action is either external and physical, or internal and psychological, and they aren't resolved by conversation.
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    One of the more rigorous simple tests for whether women are present & relevant is "does the story still work if everyone changes sexes?" or "does the story still work of everyone is cast as male?"
    Wouldn't that disqualify just about everything that isn't a social commentary?
    I ask because I thought women and men being treated as equally capable was a positive, which this measure appears to disqualify.

    Or is this more of a larger social context type thing, where a story can pass this test by way of transgression (would be generic but a gender swap makes it stand out)?
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    Does it apply to works at all? I think I know this one from other contexts and doesn't it work on characters?
    I can't really parse your question but you appear to be asking for an example? Crank is one of my go-tos for the SLT.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    Wouldn't that disqualify just about everything that isn't a social commentary?
    How was this not answered by the second paragraph of my post?

    The fact that you even need to ask that suggests that you think any degree of reference physical realities of being female counts as social commentary.

    To be fair, that's not an absurd position to take. But it puts the bar for what qualifies as social commentary very low - so low that any work that omits such details must also be social commentary. After all, how is the omission of such details NOT a comment on what the author and by extension their society cares about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username
    I ask because I thought women and men being treated as equally capable was a positive, which this measure appears to disqualify.
    Treating women and men as physically interchangeable is a very naive take on what treating them as "equally capable" means and not the extent of what the test measures. This said, if for some reason you find value in them being interchangeable, you'd still do the exact same test. You'd just be looking for a particular result.

    To elaborate a bit more, a lot of early feminist fantasy, Dragonriders of Pern or Earthsea (Tehanu especially) as examples, aren't simply concerned with women doing the same things as men tradtionally do and value. They are concerned with giving focus and credit to traditionally feminine pursuits. Later feminist works differ, but they differ in a way that signifies an internal division within feminism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username
    Or is this more of a larger social context type thing, where a story can pass this test by way of transgression (would be generic but a gender swap makes it stand out)?
    It's not quite that simple, but it is one of the things the test is usually sensitive to, yes. Metroid (the original one) would be a good example. 99.9% of gameplay doesn't care of Samus Aran's sex and the reveal of it can only be (could only be) a shock against a background where people just don't expect the heavily armored space warrior to be a woman. If your reward at the end would've been a man in speedos, it wouldn't have been anything of a twist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Is this considered passed if the answer is Yes or No?
    And why? (Whichever it is.)
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    Compare and contrast:

    Me: "You can test a material's strength by hitting it with a hammer and seeing if it breaks."
    You: "Is this test considered passed if the answer is Yes or No? And why?"

    The test measures a thing; what you do with that measure is another question. The most interesting results are often found in details of how the change does not work, or, if the changes do work, in observation of how the story jumps into another genre entirely as a result.
    Last edited by Vahnavoi; 2022-09-20 at 02:27 AM.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Early S&S isn't really a genre long on talking in general. There isn't much expository speech making and the stories aren't really about relationships. The action is either external and physical, or internal and psychological, and they aren't resolved by conversation.
    That's a good observation, which would make test mostly irrelevant. @Vahnavoi: good points on LeGuin and McCaffrey.
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Treating women and men as physically interchangeable is a very naive take on what treating them as "equally capable" means and not the extent of what the test measures. This said, if for some reason you find value in them being interchangeable, you'd still do the exact same test. You'd just be looking for a particular result.

    To elaborate a bit more, a lot of early feminist fantasy, Dragonriders of Pern or Earthsea (Tehanu especially) as examples, aren't simply concerned with women doing the same things as men tradtionally do and value. They are concerned with giving focus and credit to traditionally feminine pursuits. Later feminist works differ, but they differ in a way that signifies an internal division within feminism.
    I haven't read Earthsea - it's actually next on my list. I love everything I've ever read of Le Guin though.

    Worth mentioning that Le Guin was also pushing even harder on the idea of what gender even means at the same time with her sci-fi: The Left Hand of Darkness in particular comes to mind, and that came out at roughly the same time as Earthsea (my god, she really wrote like she was running out of time, huh?).

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    Mu.

    Compare and contrast:

    Me: "You can test a material's strength by hitting it with a hammer and seeing if it breaks."
    You: "Is this test considered passed if the answer is Yes or No? And why?"

    The test measures a thing; what you do with that measure is another question. The most interesting results are often found in details of how the change does not work, or, if the changes do work, in observation of how the story jumps into another genre entirely as a result.
    Very well said. I think this is a very good summation of any of the "tests" discussed in this thread - Bechdel, Sexy Lamp, or otherwise.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The Bechdel Test is a simple litmus (in that it's a painfully low bar for most modern works of fiction to clear) but it's also flawed/misleading as an absolute way to benchmark the feminist bona fides of a work or set of works. For example, Alien fails it (unless the xenomorph is female I suppose), while Bikini Car Wash passes.

    Personally I'm a bigger fan of the Sexy Lamp Test. Also flawed, but does not automatically fail single-female-character works and the like.

    Also, while we're discussing feminist aphorisms, I saw more than a few posts here breaching Lewis' Law
    The problem with the lamp test is that is so open to interpretation that is becomes entirely subjective (unless you interpret it strictly, in which case any character who speaks cannot be a lamp because lamps can't talk). If you asked two people (even people with a similar outlook) to watch 20 films and say how many passed the lamp test, there's a good chance you';d get a different answer. You may as well just state your opinion on whether a piece of media without trying to reference it to a test.

    The bechdel test, as much as it may not be a very complete measure of female representation, is at least largely objective (albeit with room for disagreement on close calls). As such, an assessment of how many movies pass or fail the bechdel test has some meaning. More I would say than just someone stating their opinion (whether tied to the lamp test or not)

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I can't really parse your question but you appear to be asking for an example?
    No I mean The Bechdel test applies to works (the whole book/movie/show) while the lamp test seems to be aimed at a single character. Could this character be replaced with a lamp, or a notebook containing the important information, or a button connected to the right device? Can you apply the lamp test to the entire work?

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    The problem with the lamp test is that is so open to interpretation that is becomes entirely subjective (unless you interpret it strictly, in which case any character who speaks cannot be a lamp because lamps can't talk). If you asked two people (even people with a similar outlook) to watch 20 films and say how many passed the lamp test, there's a good chance you';d get a different answer. You may as well just state your opinion on whether a piece of media without trying to reference it to a test.

    The bechdel test, as much as it may not be a very complete measure of female representation, is at least largely objective (albeit with room for disagreement on close calls). As such, an assessment of how many movies pass or fail the bechdel test has some meaning. More I would say than just someone stating their opinion (whether tied to the lamp test or not)
    I agree that the SLT is even foggier a distinction than the Bechdel Test - though that is also quite foggy if you push on it.

    A few years back, I actually went to the actual Bechdel Test website/archive - not sure if it's still around. Lots of interesting debate on each entry for whether that specific entry passed or not. There would be a lot of "well, are they REALLY talking about the male main character here, even if the actual words are different? Can the first 5 sentences count, even if they start talking about men after that?" type discussions.

    More than anything, that highlighted to me how it's a very fuzzy test that breaks down under scrutiny or an attempt to solidify the fast-and-loose rules. The fact that people had to debate whether 4 lines was enough to count was, indeed, the point.

    I feel like the SLT is much the same: doesn't really make sense as a "test," even less so than the BT. Makes much more sense as just a thought experiment to keep in mind the next time you watch a movie.
    Last edited by Ionathus; 2022-09-20 at 11:10 PM.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cluedrew View Post
    No I mean The Bechdel test applies to works (the whole book/movie/show) while the lamp test seems to be aimed at a single character. Could this character be replaced with a lamp, or a notebook containing the important information, or a button connected to the right device? Can you apply the lamp test to the entire work?
    I'd say it's character-focused because the idea is that every character in a work should serve a purpose beyond "eye candy" or "love interest" or "fridge bait." That's regardless of gender - though again, historically, one has been the victim of such writing a great deal more than the other. Making sure every character in your story has something narratively important to do (or removing/compositing them if they don't) is a pretty low bar. Megan Fox in the Transformer movies is an example, as is Blake Lively from Green Lantern, and I would argue that Christine in the first Doctor Strange qualifies too despite there being a much stronger female character in that movie (The Ancient One)

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    The problem with the lamp test is that is so open to interpretation that is becomes entirely subjective (unless you interpret it strictly, in which case any character who speaks cannot be a lamp because lamps can't talk). If you asked two people (even people with a similar outlook) to watch 20 films and say how many passed the lamp test, there's a good chance you';d get a different answer. You may as well just state your opinion on whether a piece of media without trying to reference it to a test.

    The bechdel test, as much as it may not be a very complete measure of female representation, is at least largely objective (albeit with room for disagreement on close calls). As such, an assessment of how many movies pass or fail the bechdel test has some meaning. More I would say than just someone stating their opinion (whether tied to the lamp test or not)
    I'm aware the Bechdel Test is more objective to apply, but that doesn't make it inherently superior to a subjective test. We could sit around all day bringing up questionable passes from the BT like Twilight and American Pie, as well as movies with strong female characters that nevertheless fail like Gravity and Arrival, but I'd rather not dismiss either test. Again, their goal is to be conversation starters, and they both succeed at that, even if one has to engage one's gray matter a little bit beyond applying the test itself.
    Last edited by Psyren; 2022-09-20 at 11:59 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    yeah, true, that was not well stated. What I ought to have said is "most of these stories are written by men who grew up prior to the 1950's, you can probably guess how they will measure up to today's standards." I guess I was making a jump in logic in assuming what the OP was actually asking for, rather than limiting my thought to just the Bechdel test. What they really wanted to ask, imo, is "how many of these stories have antiquated portrayals of women that people might find unenjoyable." - which, as everyone has stated, is not something the Bechdel test can actually tell you. If their main concern is that there are women in the story with speaking roles, then the test will be sufficient, otherwise it doesn't say much.
    That's a fair point. And yeah, probably most of Appendix N has antiquated portrayals of women.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by 137beth View Post
    That's a fair point. And yeah, probably most of Appendix N has antiquated portrayals of women.
    To be fair. They have pretty antiquated portrayals of men too.

    And are more often than not set in fantasy settings where what exactly qualifies as "antiquated" is almost entirely irrelevant anyway. I'm reasonably certain that the percentage of the modern readers of any of these books who have actually strapped on their weapons and armor, snuck through the pre-dawn foggy swamp, climbed into the hidden storm drain of the evil enemy's castle, killed their guards and guardian monsters, then dropped down upon them just in time to stop their ritual sacrifice to their evil deity is somewhere very near the vicinity of zero. Whether that heroic character is male or female (or whether the enemy is) and what sort of conversations they have along the way (and which sex those people are as well) kinda takes second fiddle in the "this isn't a realistic/acceptable portrayal relevant to modern socio-normative interactive relationships" aspect of the works in question.

    Now the absurd portrayal of actual gravity in the film Gravity on the other hand... (seriously. Don't get me started). And yeah, that actually bothers me far far more than the fact that there isn't a second female character to talk to. So sometimes (most of the time?), you do just have to take the purpose and setting of the work into account IMO.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    To be fair. They have pretty antiquated portrayals of men too.
    Honestly they have antiqued portrayals of everything because they're, well, antiques. Pretty much everything on that appendix is at least 50 years since first publication and a lot of the better known stuff - Conan, Lovecraft, Tolkien, etc. - is pushing the the century mark. There's lots of old stuff in these tales. For example, Howard setup the Hyborian Age of Conan as a sort of 'pre-Ice Age' environment when the world was differently shaped prior to massive flooding and sinking of continents because continental drift and plate tectonics were dubious and controversial science unknown to the public back in the 1930s when he was writing. There's all sorts of stuff ranging from architecture to clothing to food choices that match neither modern scholarship or modern media trends regarding the sort of pre-industrial societies fantasy settings tend to emulate.
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    To be fair. They have pretty antiquated portrayals of men too.

    And are more often than not set in fantasy settings where what exactly qualifies as "antiquated" is almost entirely irrelevant anyway. I'm reasonably certain that the percentage of the modern readers of any of these books who have actually strapped on their weapons and armor, snuck through the pre-dawn foggy swamp, climbed into the hidden storm drain of the evil enemy's castle, killed their guards and guardian monsters, then dropped down upon them just in time to stop their ritual sacrifice to their evil deity is somewhere very near the vicinity of zero. Whether that heroic character is male or female (or whether the enemy is) and what sort of conversations they have along the way (and which sex those people are as well) kinda takes second fiddle in the "this isn't a realistic/acceptable portrayal relevant to modern socio-normative interactive relationships" aspect of the works in question.

    Now the absurd portrayal of actual gravity in the film Gravity on the other hand... (seriously. Don't get me started). And yeah, that actually bothers me far far more than the fact that there isn't a second female character to talk to. So sometimes (most of the time?), you do just have to take the purpose and setting of the work into account IMO.
    The point though is that "antiquated portrayals of men" still allow them to be power fantasies for an assumed male audience, with agency and complex arcs that don't have to rely on reductive tropes. It's the difference between, say, a story about Theseus being a hero vs. a story about Ariadne being discarded when her usefulness to the male hero runs its course.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The point though is that "antiquated portrayals of men" still allow them to be power fantasies for an assumed male audience, with agency and complex arcs that don't have to rely on reductive tropes.
    This assumes that the audience's enjoyment of the work is primarily based on their own ability to self identify with the main character(s) *and* that said identification is primarily (or even significantly) dependent on sex/gender alignment with said character(s).

    The point in my second paragraph is that these characters share so little in common with modern readers already, that the sex of those characters is also somewhat irrelevant. Does a modern 10 year old boy really identify more with Conan (for example), than a modern 10 year old girl? Imagine if no one told them that the sex of the main character actually matters in any way at all. Should this really affect the girl's enjoyment of the work more than the boys (heck, is it wrong that we might assume/expect it would)? Or do we just let her enjoy her childhood and run around swinging a stick at imaginary enemies with her imaginary sword just like the character in the book does?

    In stories in such fantasy environments, the environment and characters themselves require so much "only in my imagination can I be like this character" association already. I'm not sure how much value there is in creating yet more ways in which we, the readers, are not like them. Obviously, there's a lot more to this topic as a whole, but I'm trying to keep it to game/genre specific areas. I will say, however, that in fantasy settings there is the potential for us to be pushing our own modern sex/gender stereotypes into the genre where it's not always needed or useful. The female rogue is going to have more in common with a male rogue in the party than the party's female paladin, right? Personality, actions, events, choices, skills, class, level, etc are going to be far more relevant to the character's identity than a "M" or "F" on the sheet. At least, in most RPGs we play. Yet we often assume that the consumer/player of content in the same genre is utterly unable to form identity associations unless that M/F value aligns properly.

    I think that can be problematic too. But on a positive note, I do love that RPGs actively encourage players to RP outside their own identity, including sex/gender identity. It's a really good thing and encourages thinking outside of one's own personal perspective. So somehow, despite a dearth of female characters in the list of works mentioned earlier, many many players, regardless of their own sex/gender have taken that game, and even from its very early days, gone forth with their own imaginations to play a wide variety of different characters, all of which are different than they are, and in most cases, in which sex/gender was just one of many aspects of the "different than I am" player/character dynamic.

    So yeah. I think the results (for the most part) have been overwhelmingly positive in this regard.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Your entire point seems to hinge on the idea that the only reason for a story to have fleshed out women with agency is in case a woman is actually reading the story, which...isn't the case at all. Also, you seem to have narrowed the scope to protagonists specifically, even though the Bechdel Test refers to any and all named female characters in a story, not just the lead one(s).

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    One of the more rigorous simple tests for whether women are present & relevant is "does the story still work if everyone changes sexes?" or "does the story still work of everyone is cast as male?"

    Even this isn't without its quirks. For example, I recall Alien was purposefully scripted so that any person could be cast in any role. So applying the test to Alien leads to the conclusion that the story doesn't care all that much about women or their presence - any feminism is coincidence of casting. Meanwhile, a lot of traditional stories that care a lot about who gave birth to who are very sensitive in this regard, even if otherwise women do nothing of note.
    The Alien example bounces back and forth among people. There was a note on the script that said "The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women". However, all parts were written he/him. I personally think the note takes priority, but some argue that the he/him meant there was a preference.

    Incidentally, I believe Alien fails the test, since Ripley and Lambert have no conversations by themselves. It's always part of a larger conversation. Still an awesome movie though.
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    This assumes that the audience's enjoyment of the work is primarily based on their own ability to self identify with the main character(s) *and* that said identification is primarily (or even significantly) dependent on sex/gender alignment with said character(s).
    Enjoyment, no. Marketability to overwhelmingly male executives, producers, and decision-makers - yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomandtish View Post
    The Alien example bounces back and forth among people. There was a note on the script that said "The crew is unisex and all parts are interchangeable for men or women". However, all parts were written he/him. I personally think the note takes priority, but some argue that the he/him meant there was a preference.
    *Groan*

    I was about to comment on this anyway due to Left Hand of Darkness being mentioned, but this touches on the same topic.

    Unpopular opinion of the day: English-speakers pay disproportionate amount of attention to third person pronouns.

    Like the script of Alien, Left Hand of Darkness was also criticized for using he/him instead of something else for its ambisexual characters. I've read Left Hand of Darkness several times, and this would've never occurred to me as relevant criticism of the work. Why? Because I've only read the novel as a translation, in a language that has just one third person pronoun. So this supposed flaw of the original is entirely fixed in translation.

    This also brings to mind a discussion panel about queer readings of Tolkien's work. One of the panelists observed that young children of our country sometimes imagine Merri and Pippin as girls when reading the book. Why? Again, I think the reason is linguistic: any pronoun-based evidence for gender would be erased in translation to my language and Merri and Pippin are more similar to local girls' names (Meri and Peppi, specifically) than they are to local boys' names.

    This suggests another test, which is admittedly more difficult to perform than others, as it requires multi-linguality:

    1) begin with assumption that gendered pronouns are used for convenience of spoken language and don't actually transmit useful information.
    2) translate the text you want to examine to any language that lacks gendered pronouns
    3) see how readers of the translated text conceptualize gender and sex of characters in the text.

    Some examples of results to look for:

    A) Low confusion, low variance - "everyone knows Merri and Pippin are men": individual readers quickly decide gender of the characters and these decisions match the original intent of the text; the characters have strong, identifiable gendered traits that are apperent without relying on weak linguistic evidence.
    B) Low confusion, high variance - "Merri and Pippin are girls": individual readers quickly decide gender of the characters and nothing in the text challenges their opinion, but it can be noticed that between reader, there is no consensus, and the results don't always match intent of the original text; the characters are not strongly gendered and in absence of weak linguistic evidence, other factors rise to prominence. BONUS ROUND: see if the gender(s) an individual settles on match their own, or see if the interpretation varies by cultural sphere.
    C) High confusion, low variance - "SAMUS ARAN IS A GIRL???" : individual readers quickly decide the gender of the characters to be opposite of original intent AND have their opinion blatantly challenged or contradicted by later parts of the text; the characters are in open defiance of gender norms and would be assumed to be of different gender if not for explicit information.
    D) High confusion, high variance - "I can't tell if this character is man or woman": individual readers remain undecided over gender of a character, no consensus forms even within a cultural sphere; the characters don't have identifiable gender in absence of weak linguistic evidence.

    Of course, inverse of this test can be equally amusong: take a text written in non-gendered language and translate it to a language with grammatical gender. See how that changes perception of characters. I know, for instance, that whether some animals in Aesop's fables are perceived as male or female, and consequently which kinds of actors are cast in those roles in adaptions, sometimes varies based on grammatical gender of the words for the animals.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    This is a good example of changing norms.

    He/Him was still the default pronoun for gender neutral at the time positions where it could in theory also be she/her at the time.
    Why did you correct yourself? (Sounds like there’s something here for me to learn!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    *Groan*

    Unpopular opinion of the day: English-speakers pay disproportionate amount of attention to third person pronouns.
    Cool, I get to play the part of the Ignoramus! So… what, exactly, do you mean by “disproportionate”? How would speakers of other languages respond if someone used “wrong”-gendered endings, or “wrong”-gendered … uh… connective thingies? La petite garçon / un petit filette? How do English speakers differ in their response / processing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Like the script of Alien, Left Hand of Darkness was also criticized for using he/him instead of something else for its ambisexual characters. I've read Left Hand of Darkness several times, and this would've never occurred to me as relevant criticism of the work. Why? Because I've only read the novel as a translation, in a language that has just one third person pronoun. So this supposed flaw of the original is entirely fixed in translation.

    This also brings to mind a discussion panel about queer readings of Tolkien's work. One of the panelists observed that young children of our country sometimes imagine Merri and Pippin as girls when reading the book. Why? Again, I think the reason is linguistic: any pronoun-based evidence for gender would be erased in translation to my language and Merri and Pippin are more similar to local girls' names (Meri and Peppi, specifically) than they are to local boys' names.
    Yeah, I always figured Mary and Pippi were “supposed to be” girls, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    This suggests another test, which is admittedly more difficult to perform than others, as it requires multi-linguality:

    1) begin with assumption that gendered pronouns are used for convenience of spoken language and don't actually transmit useful information.
    2) translate the text you want to examine to any language that lacks gendered pronouns
    3) see how readers of the translated text conceptualize gender and sex of characters in the text.

    Some examples of results to look for:

    A) Low confusion, low variance - "everyone knows Merri and Pippin are men": individual readers quickly decide gender of the characters and these decisions match the original intent of the text; the characters have strong, identifiable gendered traits that are apperent without relying on weak linguistic evidence.
    B) Low confusion, high variance - "Merri and Pippin are girls": individual readers quickly decide gender of the characters and nothing in the text challenges their opinion, but it can be noticed that between reader, there is no consensus, and the results don't always match intent of the original text; the characters are not strongly gendered and in absence of weak linguistic evidence, other factors rise to prominence. BONUS ROUND: see if the gender(s) an individual settles on match their own, or see if the interpretation varies by cultural sphere.
    C) High confusion, low variance - "SAMUS ARAN IS A GIRL???" : individual readers quickly decide the gender of the characters to be opposite of original intent AND have their opinion blatantly challenged or contradicted by later parts of the text; the characters are in open defiance of gender norms and would be assumed to be of different gender if not for explicit information.
    D) High confusion, high variance - "I can't tell if this character is man or woman": individual readers remain undecided over gender of a character, no consensus forms even within a cultural sphere; the characters don't have identifiable gender in absence of weak linguistic evidence.
    I never played… Metroid? All I knew was the name. Sam, a guy’s name (I’d never heard it as an abbreviation for “Samantha”), plus the male ending “us”. About the only more masculine names I’m aware of are “Brutus” and “Guy”. Yeah, I was shocked to hear that Samus was a girl! So, great example.

    I’m confused, however, that your #4 doesn’t show parallel confusion: “everyone imagines a different gender, and is confused that anyone else ever thinks otherwise” would seem to match the pattern established thus far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahnavoi View Post
    Of course, inverse of this test can be equally amusong: take a text written in non-gendered language and translate it to a language with grammatical gender. See how that changes perception of characters. I know, for instance, that whether some animals in Aesop's fables are perceived as male or female, and consequently which kinds of actors are cast in those roles in adaptions, sometimes varies based on grammatical gender of the words for the animals.
    *Error* attempting to gender the attack helicopter animals has caused a Fatal error to occur. Rebooting.

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Your entire point seems to hinge on the idea that the only reason for a story to have fleshed out women with agency is in case a woman is actually reading the story, which...isn't the case at all.
    I was responding to a post in which that seemed to be the assumption being made:

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The point though is that "antiquated portrayals of men" still allow them to be power fantasies for an assumed male audience, with agency and complex arcs that don't have to rely on reductive tropes.
    I examined whether a female reading the work would have any less ability to identify with the "power fantasy" of the character.


    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Also, you seem to have narrowed the scope to protagonists specifically, even though the Bechdel Test refers to any and all named female characters in a story, not just the lead one(s).
    It's funny, because I thought of that while writing (and put a (s) ending in at one point planning to expand on it), then realized my post was long enough by far anyway, so just left it with an exploration of main characters. Again though, given that this was about "power fantasies for an assumed male audience" and given the story lists we're given (not a lot of well developed or focused on secondary characters in most of the stories), it seemed most relevant to examine that case first.

    The same can absolutely be said for secondary characters as well. I guess my question is: Does the absence of direct discussion of secondary characters change my point? Why not actually respond to what I said instead of saying "well, you didn't also talk about <some other group>".

    Would the points I made be different for other characters in a work anyway? If you think so, then that's a valid critique. But your critique seemed to just consist of saying I didn't talk about other types of characters, but without any examination or claim by you that other characters would have any different impact in terms of interpretation and identification by a reader.

    Or do you think it would?

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by gbaji View Post
    I was responding to a post in which that seemed to be the assumption being made:



    I examined whether a female reading the work would have any less ability to identify with the "power fantasy" of the character.
    Actually no, you examined whether their "enjoyment" would be impacted. It's quite possible to enjoy a work or series of works that maintain a particular status quo, and nevertheless wish for other works to be created that evolve it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Sorry. Missed this in my earlier post. I'll address here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Enjoyment, no. Marketability to overwhelmingly male executives, producers, and decision-makers - yes.
    This is an excellent point. Although it does skew our assessment of the authors of pasts works a bit (specifically on the appendix list in question), since we can't really know for sure if there were so many male dominated themes/characters because that's just what the author thought or liked personally, or if their publishers forced them to fit into what *they* thought were "proper" representations for characters in that genre.

    I was considering the audience as the readers only, but obviously readers alone aren't the only, much less primary, factor influencing how characters are portrayed in stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Actually no, you examined whether their "enjoyment" would be impacted. It's quite possible to enjoy a work or series of works that maintain a particular status quo, and nevertheless wish for other works to be created that evolve it.
    Sure, which I suppose loops us nicely back to the Bechdel test (and other similar tests). And also back to my earlier point that it's less valuable to use as a critique of past works as it is just a general view/measurement of a body of works that one may then decide to make an effort to do things differently. I also think there is some difficulty objectively even determining that some things are "better" or "worse" as well based on that measurement. Which is kinda where I was going with my earlier post.

    Ultimately, while we might seek to "evolve" works within a given genre/art, I do think it's valid to consider that our own biases are influencing our own interpretations of such works today just as much as other people's biases did in the past. In different ways, but they're always there. I suggest (perhaps humbly, perhaps not), that it's a bit arrogant for us to assume that ours today are innately "better". Then again, you used the word "evolve", which, despite popular assumption, does not actually presume "into something better". it's just something changing.

    I would counter, however, that to a great degree, "enjoyment" is arguably the only real measurement of art. And it's different for everyone. So I'm always hesitant towards attempts to measure art (of any form) and pass judgement on it based on said measurement. Obviously, we're also considering here how that may influence readers in terms of how they run/play RPGs (at least that's my assumption for this topic). And, as I pointed out in my earlier post, despite said tilting towards male dominated characters in a lot of those old fantasy stories, the actual players of RPGs have, for the most part, managed to adopt a pretty bewildering array of RP of characters that are massively "not like me", with sex/gender being one of the least significant factors. And, again for the most part, have not allowed sex/gender to be a major element in terms of the "powerful heroic nature" of said characters they have played.

    So, despite seeming to "fail", and perhaps some might argue "should be improved", the outcome of these works on the audience (Gygax's intended audience and purpose towards showing people how to build/roleplay in these environments), seemed to do no harm at all. So we might be looking at a case of worrying about what might happen instead of looking at what actually did. Could there have been more female characters in those old stories? Absolutely. Did their absence cause generations of RPG players to strictly place all their male characters in the heroic lead roles and their females into either damsel in distress or evil sorceress roles? Um. Not so much. If anything, the opposite seems to have happened. IME, RPG players were far far more likely to look outside (and play outside) so called "traditional gender roles" than the general public around them. And were certainly ahead of the curve in terms of comparisons to actual media at the time (seriously. Look at shows from the 80s and 90s, and then ask folks like me who were playing at gaming tables at the time what things were like).

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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    I just finished the first book in one of the sub series of Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar novels. Now the author is not some old-school bigot--two of the main characters are gay, women have leading roles (and in fact were the protagonists of many books), and overall she's very woman-empowerment-centric.

    The book still failed the test. Why? Because the viewpoint characters were male, so any reported dialogue involved them or other mixed groups. So you never had a female only conversation.
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    Default Re: How much, if any, of Appendix N passes the Bechdel Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I just finished the first book in one of the sub series of Mercedes Lackey's Valdemar novels. Now the author is not some old-school bigot--two of the main characters are gay, women have leading roles (and in fact were the protagonists of many books), and overall she's very woman-empowerment-centric.

    The book still failed the test. Why? Because the viewpoint characters were male, so any reported dialogue involved them or other mixed groups. So you never had a female only conversation.
    My informal sense of this (my sister is, shall we say, an outspoken fan of the BT) is that books have a much harder time passing it just due to books generally having less dialog overall. It seems the BT was first floated in that comic as about movies, which makes much more sense.

    I think the original Bourne books would barely pass the reverse BT. Little dialog, lots of description, lots of italicized internal thoughts.

    Who else saw Death Race 2050, with the two women having a conversation in Bechdel's Bar?

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