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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    So, I'm thinking of PAO into a Sarrukh, to gain a large amount of base intelligence. However, I'm not that keen on actually staying a sarrukh. They are cool and all, but I really want to stay a human.

    So I was considering making a clone and then mind switch into the clone when I was done being a sarrukh - which to be honest is right after I gain the int bonus.

    But, it would seem that its not possible to clone my self without loosing a level... so what should I do, if I don't want to loose a level and don't want to stay a sarrukh, but wants to gain the int bonus...

    This is mostly a thought experiment, but I might just try it in game... so any help really would be great!

    Thanks!


    EDIT: I just thought of something. Could I mind switch into something else, PAO into a sarrukh and then mind switch back into my old body? Would that be doable and if so would that cost a level?
    Last edited by Melcar; 2022-09-16 at 01:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Thought bottle? I'm not 100% sure as I have no actual experience in high level arcaney shenanigans, but I do remember that's the thing mentioned when youneed to manipulate/recoup XP shenanigans

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    EDIT: I just thought of something. Could I mind switch into something else, PAO into a sarrukh and then mind switch back into my old body? Would that be doable and if so would that cost a level?
    Err... That's exactly what I suggested on the post that I told you about this trick...
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2022-09-16 at 01:59 PM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Err... That's exactly what I suggested on the post that I told you about this trick...
    Ha ha... thats funny. I must be loosing it! Between working full time and have a 10 month old baby I apparantly have lost the ability to remember things! :)

    But thanks for reminding me. I wasn't trying to take credit or anyning!
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    Ha ha... thats funny. I must be loosing it! Between working full time and have a 10 month old baby I apparantly have lost the ability to remember things! :)

    But thanks for reminding me. I wasn't trying to take credit or anyning!
    Babies WILL do that. My 2nd and 3rd were only 10 months apart. And yes, they can drive all thoughts from your mind.
    ;-D))).
    Currently Playing: Aire Romaris Chaotic Good Male Half Celestial Gray Elf Duskblade 13 / Swiftblade 7 /// Elven Generallist Wizard 20

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    PirateWench

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    I don't see why you couldn't contract lycanthropy so that you lose an animal hit die instead of a class level. After shifting to your new form (whether that's through clone, astral seed, mind switch, or whatever) you could receive a remove curse or break enchantment to cure the lycanthropy. This most likely does require your base type to be either humanoid or giant, or to use a polymorph any object twice for the permanent duration.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Can't you just dispel the PAO? It has a duration of permanent, not instantaneous.
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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Can't you just dispel the PAO? It has a duration of permanent, not instantaneous.
    And dispelling PAO on yourself removes both the physical and mental effects, which is not what is wanted.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    So, assuming I used PAO to turn a pepple into a human, mind switched to that human, and then PAO into a sarrukh (twice for permanent duration) and my wizard started with 18 int back at level 1. Would I gain 20 to int, since that's the Sarrukh racial bonus or would the spell set my base int to 30 thus netting a gain of 12 to int since that is the difference between 18 and 30?

    I'm a little confused as to how the interaction would go. I first just thought I would gain 20, but now I'm unsure!

    If its the latter, what is the highest int creature I could PAO into, for max int gain? Like could I PAO into a great wyrm prismatic dragon, and gain its int? Is there any limitations really?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Melcar; 2022-09-18 at 09:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    So, assuming I used PAO to turn a pepple into a human, mind switched to that human, and then PAO into a sarrukh (twice for permanent duration) and my wizard started with 18 int back at level 1. Would I gain 20 to int, since that's the Sarrukh racial bonus or would the spell set my base int to 30 thus netting a gain of 12 to int since that is the difference between 18 and 30?

    I'm a little confused as to how the interaction would go. I first just thought I would gain 20, but now I'm unsure!

    If its the latter, what is the highest int creature I could PAO into, for max int gain? Like could I PAO into a great wyrm prismatic dragon, and gain its int? Is there any limitations really?

    Thanks!
    I would argue that you received the racial bonus, so you would receive +20 to int. I think so, because you are still you, so you don’t loose 8 int from having 18 int to start with… when polymorphing. You still have that… they are not just gone! They are still base.

    So in effect, treat your int as if you had a starter a new character of that race.

    At least that’s how I see it!

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    This combo can't work. Mind switch doesn't have any text to say that you retain your intelligence score. Therefore, when you mind switch you either lose the effect of PAO or take the effect with you keeping you a sarruhk. My money is on the first one.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    This combo can't work. Mind switch doesn't have any text to say that you retain your intelligence score. Therefore, when you mind switch you either lose the effect of PAO or take the effect with you keeping you a sarruhk. My money is on the first one.
    Your mind is composed of your mental scores (among other things), and Mind Switch says nothing about making changes to them. It doesn't even take away racial adjustments to them.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2022-09-21 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    This combo can't work. Mind switch doesn't have any text to say that you retain your intelligence score. Therefore, when you mind switch you either lose the effect of PAO or take the effect with you keeping you a sarruhk. My money is on the first one.
    Neither does it have any text to say that you loose it! Nor that any of your ongoing spells are dispelled... In fact following your logic, I can infer that Mind switching will grant me the mental scores of a great wyrm time dragon. It doesn't say it will, but if your assertion is correct so too is mine!

    ... what can be asserting with out evidence can be dismissed without evidence!
    Last edited by Max Caysey; 2022-09-21 at 01:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Caysey View Post
    Neither does it have any text to say that you loose it! Nor that any of your ongoing spells are dispelled... In fact following your logic, I can infer that Mind switching will grant me the mental scores of a great wyrm time dragon. It doesn't say it will, but if your assertion is correct so too is mine!

    ... what can be asserting with out evidence can be dismissed without evidence!
    I think it's fair to say that any effect that doesn't say it changes your attributes, doesn't change your attributes. That would be why Mind Switch specifies that "You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of your assumed body." If you could just assume this, it wouldn't have to tell you. But logically, if it specifies which attributes change, any that are not specified would not change.

    This isn't an assertion without evidence, it's just how rules work. Effects specify what changes they cause, and do not cause changes they do not specify. PAO specifes that it grants the intelligence score of the new form, Mind Switch does not. One could argue that because you are no longer in the form that was targeted with PAO, you are no longer subject to its permanent effect, but I don't think this would be strict RAW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronikoce View Post
    If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to hold it for me you wouldn't say they were wielding the candlestick. If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to club an intruder to death you would say they were wielding the candlestick. The act of using the held item for a purpose such as intruder clubbing changes the word that ought to be used.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drelua View Post
    One could argue that because you are no longer in the form that was targeted with PAO, you are no longer subject to its permanent effect, but I don't think this would be strict RAW.
    But I am in that form still tho… since it’s a permanent duration and the body I used to mind switch from is still a sarrukh body… I’m simply switching minds. My mind is still also a sarrukh’s, it’s just no longer in the sarrukh body!

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Caysey View Post
    But I am in that form still tho… since it’s a permanent duration and the body I used to mind switch from is still a sarrukh body… I’m simply switching minds. My mind is still also a sarrukh’s, it’s just no longer in the sarrukh body!
    Sorry, I may have misunderstood which side you were arguing for, need to read things more carefully. To be clear, I do think you should keep the INT when Mind Switched.

    The alternative would be that Mind Switch changes the scores it says it does, and also changes the ones it doesn't say it changes, which I think would be silly. It says physical scores change, so if it changed mentals as well it would say so. Simple explanation for that is, PAO alters your mind to fit the form, Mind Switch doesn't. That would kinda defeat the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronikoce View Post
    If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to hold it for me you wouldn't say they were wielding the candlestick. If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to club an intruder to death you would say they were wielding the candlestick. The act of using the held item for a purpose such as intruder clubbing changes the word that ought to be used.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Caysey View Post
    I would argue that you received the racial bonus, so you would receive +20 to int. I think so, because you are still you, so you don’t loose 8 int from having 18 int to start with… when polymorphing. You still have that… they are not just gone! They are still base.

    So in effect, treat your int as if you had a starter a new character of that race.

    At least that’s how I see it!
    Thanks…

    That was the way I too thought it made the most sense. But the spells do not say “ gain the racial bonuses… “ but rather that you gain the scores of the target form… Idk, maybe I just want it the be the most advantageous interpretation, because I want to gain the most possible boost to my wizards int!
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Caysey View Post
    Neither does it have any text to say that you loose it! Nor that any of your ongoing spells are dispelled... In fact following your logic, I can infer that Mind switching will grant me the mental scores of a great wyrm time dragon. It doesn't say it will, but if your assertion is correct so too is mine!

    ... what can be asserting with out evidence can be dismissed without evidence!
    Except you can't simply split the spell effect. Either PAO follows you, meaning you stay a sarruhk no matter which body you inhabit, or the effect stays with the original body as you are no longer that creature and you lose your increased Int score. You cannot say that you keep the Int score and stop being affected by PAO. If you are no longer affected by a magical effect, you no longer receive any of the benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Caysey View Post
    But I am in that form still tho… since it’s a permanent duration and the body I used to mind switch from is still a sarrukh body… I’m simply switching minds. My mind is still also a sarrukh’s, it’s just no longer in the sarrukh body!
    True Mind Switch says you exchanged bodies. You are no longer the creature targeted by PAO. Just like if you change creature type under a charm person spell, because you are no longer the valid target of the spell it doesn't continue to affect you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Your mind is composed of your mental scores (among other things), and Mind Switch says nothing about making changes to them. It doesn't even take away racial adjustments to them.
    It also doesn't say it brings magical effects with you. PAO can have a permanent duration, but is never instantaneous. This means the magical effect stays active after casting. Mind Switch doesn't say whether or not effects follow you, but in either case you cannot simply nullify the effects of another effect that don't make each other irrelevant. If you want to keep the Int, you must stay a sarruhk in the new body.
    Last edited by Darg; 2022-09-22 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    True Mind Switch says you exchanged bodies. You are no longer the creature targeted by PAO. Just like if you change creature type under a charm person spell, because you are no longer the valid target of the spell it doesn't continue to affect you.
    This part I disagree with, it says you gain the targets physical scores and type and everything, not that you become that creature. You're still you. Whether spell effects follow you or not, I have no idea.

    The point that you're either still under the effects of PAO and therefore still a sarrukh, or not and therefore lose the INT, is a good one though. I think I have to agree there, even if I'm not sure which is true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronikoce View Post
    If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to hold it for me you wouldn't say they were wielding the candlestick. If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to club an intruder to death you would say they were wielding the candlestick. The act of using the held item for a purpose such as intruder clubbing changes the word that ought to be used.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Don't polymorph effects generally turn you into a typical example of the creature you're becoming? That would mean you gain the Int of an average Sarrukh, not their racial bonus applied to your initial Int score.
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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    Don't polymorph effects generally turn you into a typical example of the creature you're becoming? That would mean you gain the Int of an average Sarrukh, not their racial bonus applied to your initial Int score.
    I think they typically only change physical scores, but PAO specifies that "polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form." Not sure if there's a clear answer to how that works exactly, but it does sound like it gives the creatures actual score, not its modifier to its score. It does use the same wording as polymorph does about changing physical scores.

    On the other hand, I don't know if 'form' is clearly defined. You would be in that form if you were naturally a sarrukh, and then you could put an 18 in INT and start at 38. So this might just be a gm call either way?
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronikoce View Post
    If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to hold it for me you wouldn't say they were wielding the candlestick. If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to club an intruder to death you would say they were wielding the candlestick. The act of using the held item for a purpose such as intruder clubbing changes the word that ought to be used.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drelua View Post
    On the other hand, I don't know if 'form' is clearly defined. You would be in that form if you were naturally a sarrukh, and then you could put an 18 in INT and start at 38. So this might just be a gm call either way?
    Thats my argument… you are still you, and if you had started as a sarrukh, you would have had 38 int (starting with 18) so why should that not be the case when polymorphing? You still have your starting stats…

    It makes more sense to me, that you keep your point bought/ rolled up stats, and then apply what ever racial modifier your target form might have - positive or negative - just as if you had started your character as that race/monster…

    Now it does not specifically say that one does so, but you are still you, so…
    Last edited by Max Caysey; 2022-09-23 at 04:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drelua View Post
    This part I disagree with, it says you gain the targets physical scores and type and everything, not that you become that creature. You're still you. Whether spell effects follow you or not, I have no idea.

    The point that you're either still under the effects of PAO and therefore still a sarrukh, or not and therefore lose the INT, is a good one though. I think I have to agree there, even if I'm not sure which is true.
    Yeah, I'm not arguing about how mind switch works. My argument is entirely that for the switch to work where you keep the int score and the form of the body you switch to requires butchering the spell effect. Either you remain the target of the entirety of the spell or you lose the entirety of the spell. There isn't an in-between.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Caysey View Post
    Thats my argument… you are still you, and if you had started as a sarrukh, you would have had 38 int (starting with 18) so why should that not be the case when polymorphing? You still have your starting stats…

    It makes more sense to me, that you keep your point bought/ rolled up stats, and then apply what ever racial modifier your target form might have - positive or negative - just as if you had started your character as that race/monster…

    Now it does not specifically say that one does so, but you are still you, so…
    Racial bonuses are included in the ability scores of the form. They tell you to use ability scores so you simply copy the box as is minus the exceptions. So, if one believes that the ability scores are the outcome of racial bonuses, as implied by monsters as characters, then those bonuses are tied to the form itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glossary
    racial bonus: A bonus granted because of the culture a particular creature was brought up in or because of innate characteristics of that type of creature. If a creature’s race changes (for instance, if it dies and is reincarnated), it loses all racial bonuses it had in its previous form.
    Last edited by Darg; 2022-09-23 at 08:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Yeah, I'm not arguing about how mind switch works. My argument is entirely that for the switch to work where you keep the int score and the form of the body you switch to requires butchering the spell effect. Either you remain the target of the entirety of the spell or you lose the entirety of the spell. There isn't an in-between.



    Racial bonuses are included in the ability scores of the form. They tell you to use ability scores so you simply copy the box as is minus the exceptions. So, if one believes that the ability scores are the outcome of racial bonuses, as implied by monsters as characters, then those bonuses are tied to the form itself.
    Racial bonusser are yes, my 18 int (8 more than standard) is not!

    Im saying my interpretation is they should!

    Btw, I see the interaction between the two spells as no different than if a sarrukh just wanted to mind switch. The fact that one became sarrukh by magic has no bearing on how the spells work imo
    Last edited by Max Caysey; 2022-09-23 at 09:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darg View Post
    Yeah, I'm not arguing about how mind switch works. My argument is entirely that for the switch to work where you keep the int score and the form of the body you switch to requires butchering the spell effect. Either you remain the target of the entirety of the spell or you lose the entirety of the spell. There isn't an in-between.
    Fair enough, whether or not you're the same creature is a fairly minor point. I don't even know what that means rules wise. The rest I agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Max Caysey View Post
    Btw, I see the interaction between the two spells as no different than if a sarrukh just wanted to mind switch. The fact that one became sarrukh by magic has no bearing on how the spells work imo
    It is different though, it can be dispelled, and if it is dispelled, you go back to your old INT. PAO is an active spell effect. As Darg pointed out, you can't pick and choose which parts of a spell effect to bring with you. If it were an instantaneous spell maybe, but it's permanent. So it's constantly acting on you to make you smarter, and to make you a snake person. You can't take the part you like with you and leave the rest behind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chronikoce View Post
    If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to hold it for me you wouldn't say they were wielding the candlestick. If I handed someone a candlestick and asked them to club an intruder to death you would say they were wielding the candlestick. The act of using the held item for a purpose such as intruder clubbing changes the word that ought to be used.

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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    The polymorph sub-school states "Unless stated otherwise in the spell's description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own" with a few exceptions that don't apply to ability scores.

    That means you get the form's standard ability scores, of an average member of their species, not their racial ability modifiers.
    Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2022-09-23 at 03:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Is there a way to not loose a level when cloning?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drelua View Post
    Fair enough, whether or not you're the same creature is a fairly minor point. I don't even know what that means rules wise. The rest I agree with.
    Honestly, it can definitely go either way. I personally prefer to rule it as you no longer being the "you" as targeted by the spell. This allows an interesting interaction with personal range spells/powers which gives the spell more of a party side tactical benefit.

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