How to run these guys - i'm sweating

[HoboKnight]

Hey all,

as a DM i worry the most, when I need to run high-int, competent, experienced monsters. With the path of my lvl-7 group, they got targeted by 2 of these guys: https://www.dndunleashed.com/home/ne...oni-nightblade

Now, I have studied their statblocks, but IMHO I have a ton of tactics holes in my plan for combat. So, I'll give you what I have and hope for some optimisers to teach me an adittional lesson or 2. (Basically im looking for "Monsters know what theyre doing" list)

Here is what I have so far:

When it's their turn, one of them grapples the target(one of 3 attacks), teleports 30ft to another creature and adds another 20 ft of flying with grappled target, moving up into the air(Movement is half-speed with grappled target. How would you handle encumbrance rules in this case? Could this guy fly up 20 ft AND hold a full-plate clad target next to him?) Second assassin teleports, then flies to the grappled target, does 3 attacks with adittional damage, because ally is next to him. Rinse and repeat. In what cases would holder of target drop it?

10 points of regeneration every turn.

If there is prep time: invisibility and mirror image on both, then action. If there is no prep time at disposal, mentioned tactic seems best.

Let's say predicted area of encounter is an open road with a lot of traffic. Many opportunities to teleport around, but no ledges/balconies to teleport there.

Thanks from to-be-competent assassin guild

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo, lets answer some questions:

Grappling and encumbrance: From what I can find, these two rules normally don't actually interact. It looks like you ignore the encumbrance rules for grappling, all that matters are the sizes. So a Fighter with a 16 strength that's been made large could grapple and drag a Huge Stone Golem, or a Tiny Spider could, technically, grapple and drag a Small Halfling or Goblin. The only thing to keep in mind is that you move at half speed when dragging a creature. So the pair could absolutely drag a PC into the air and beat him senseless while holding them.

That said, I just noticed their teleport does have that limitation...They should be fine though, cause carry capacity is Strength Score x 15, and you double it for every size category above Medium. These guys are Large with a 19 Strength, they can carry 570 pounds. Unless you have some really, really heavy PCs, you're fine.


In what cases would the target be released: When its advantageous for the grappler, and you can release it whenever you like. So, lets say one grapples the Fighter then teleports and flies 50ft into the air. Their buddy can fly up, attack three times, and then the grappler can release the grapple and drop the Fighter. The Fighter falls to the ground and takes an additional 5d6 damage from falling, while the two Nightblades are safe in the air. Or they can continue to grapple the Fighter and try to carry the Fighter away.


Regeneration: That seems fine, this might not even come into play if someone has Chill Touch. And someone should always have Chill Touch @_@


If Prep time: Absolutely go for mirror image and Invisibility. That said, they should always start Invisible, as Invisibility is At will and an hour long spell.


Open road should be fine. Even if there aren't any ledges, they can fly. So they can teleport into the air if they want to and be just fine. Additionally, their actions should cause a bit of a panic in a crowded street, have the non-combatants cause a bit of havoc, like being in the way. Make sure you use their at-will Darkness as well to sow even more panic, that way the party has to deal with them and the crowd.

[PallyBass]

These guys have Change Shape and +11 Deception which makes them ideal for gathering information and trickery. If the Oni have time to spare they would very likely want to study their prey to learn of any plans as well as the PC's strengths/weaknesses, or hatch devious plans to isolate the PC's from each other.

i.e. They could impersonate two of the PC's and murder/beat/rob someone earlier in the day, run into an alley, go invisible, then shapechange into normal citizens to direct the now angry mob to the PC's current location. Just to see if they can soften up/ drive them to a secluded area/ get them arrested/isolated.
Anything to make the PC's hugely disadvantaged, before the Oni consider the assassination attempt.


If they are being rushed for time and have to act then Invis-sneak-grapple-fly-shank sounds good, giving targeting preference to an unarmored PC as they assume it would make for an easier kill. And unless they are fanatical they likely will turn Invisible and run away if they find they are outmatched in a straight fight. It would certainly skyrocket the PC's paranoia if the Oni escaped after a botched attack... knowing shapeshifting invisible assassins are lurking about.

[da newt]

Of note, a dropped PC will take fall damage and be prone so it might work well for Oni 1 to hit/grapple, teleport, fly up, hit two more times and drop - then Oni #2 can repeat all and that one unlucky PC could be as far as 100' away from the rest of the party having been attacked 6 times and dropped twice ...

Alternately, the two Oni could each grab a different PC and dash away in opposite directions to force the party to split up.

They are smart and trained for this sort of stuff - maybe they wait for nightfall and attack while folks are resting, or during bad weather ...

These guys are masters of disguise too, and you said it was a crowded area - maybe they attack as generic travelers and then blend into the crowd using the bystanders as cover / concealment (shape-change, invisibility, mislead, ...).

The one limit of the teleport is the destination has to be within 5' of someone, but it works great for skirmishing in a crowd - stab someone 3x, telport into the crowd, disappear ... if you do it well, the PCs will never know who they are fighting or how many there are or if that guy right there is one of the bag guys or just some innocent bystander.

Sounds like this shouldn't be a one time encounter, but a series of harrowing attacks.

[TyGuy]

I recommend against doing ruthless optimized intelligent and dangerous monsters if you're not ready to kill PCs.

That said, if they're on the offense, they 100% should have at will invisibility up before ambush. Invisibly combined with jaunt can make for a good way to buy breathing room if one is getting hurt, or used as an exit strategy. With the regen, the should use hit and run of they get damaged to around half health.

Nobody has mentioned the cone of cold yet. If I was trying to be merciless with the intelligent monsters, I would open with cone of colds.

[sithlordnergal]

I recommend against doing ruthless optimized intelligent and dangerous monsters if you're not ready to kill PCs.

That said, if they're on the offense, they 100% should have at will invisibility up before ambush. Invisibly combined with jaunt can make for a good way to buy breathing room if one is getting hurt, or used as an exit strategy. With the regen, the should use hit and run of they get damaged to around half health.

Nobody has mentioned the cone of cold yet. If I was trying to be merciless with the intelligent monsters, I would open with cone of colds.

It depends on the party...if you have an optimized party capable of handling such ruthlessness', go for it. Double down on it in fact. A favorite combo of mine involves the old versions of the Star Spawn Seer and Star Spawn Hulk, they basically had a tag team ability that let you teleport a PC, and deal 12d12 damage with no save in a small AoE.

[HoboKnight]

Thanks so much, guys. These two started with scouting, they have shapeshifted (as a gnome and a small satyr) joined the party on PCs journey in a town. Their goal was to observe&assess. And... since they wanted to hide their intentions, I had Onis roll Deception ... they rolled 1 and 2, so 12 and 13. And some characters with high enough passive Perception (17) will be notified of these two observing them in a suspicious way.

If PCs go full "kill&smash", Onis will try to flee... to prep up and go in with better odds.

[Maan]

I notice no one mentioned that they also have Pass Without Trace plus high Stealth. That gives them an effective +23 Stealth roll.
Opening with an ambush effectively gives Team Oni an extra round, which can be pretty deadly.

They could actually start spreading their attacks out, to poison as many of the PCs as they can; especially martials, who are based on attack rolls.
Even if the party has ways to remove Poison, that's an Action wasted on that. Easy money for Team Oni.

After that they can focus fire on squishier targets/casters. And kill them. Not "drop them to zero HP": kill. Them. It makes no sense not finishing off an enemy when there is someone who can otherwise get them back up easily.

Finally, they should end their turn using Darkness to negate visibility (and in that way, many spells that require a target).
Darkness can be precast on a object, say a bead on a rope bracelet: close your fist around it and the Darkness is gone, open it and Darkness is back in effect. And interacting with an object is a Free Action.

You'll have to gauge how good your players are at tactics, though.
These two can easily slaughter a party not ready for this kind of encounter. They have LOTS of deadly aces up their sleeves.

[HoboKnight]

Does this poison even apply Poisoned status? I think it is just poion type damage, nothing more.

Yeah, my party is COMPETENT. I'm actually worried about Onis. :D

[Maan]

Oh, you are right. I just don't get why they make monsters who apply Poison damage but not the Poisoned Condition, really.

It's focus fire, then.
The rest still applies, though. Start with an ambush (if they are discovered, have them flee, regroup and ambush), kill casters, deny visibility.
Those two look like they can give most parties a rough time.

[Keravath]

1) The Onis have already infiltrated the party to observe them. They are smart. They will have a cover story about why they are observing the party if someone catches them at it. "Sorry. The local thieves guild was offering some coin for information about the party and we thought we'd make a bit on the side. You are pretty famous after all."

2) These Onis can shadow jaunt and turn invisible at will.

3) After assessing the party. The Onis will know who is more dangerous to them. Who is the hardest to hit. Who has ranged attacks that could be effective.

4) The Onis would not choose to attack on a wide open street or field in the daytime. It offers no good avenues of escape and no real opportunity for ambush.

5) If they want to be assassins then they should play as assassins. Unless they are on a time line they should wait for the party to split up, perhaps doing shopping or carousing, isolate their target and eliminate them if possible. If the character has any intrinsic value for either ransom or sale then the Onis might choose to capture them.

6) The Onis have all their abilities in whatever form they are in, including flying. The weapons do slightly less damage. In terms of damage, the Onis don't do that much unless they can reliably land their sneak attack from each of them every round. At level 7, the martials in the party will likely have AC in the 20 range which means that the +9 to hit for the Oni is likely to hit less than 1/2 the time.

7) If forced into combat the Oni are likely to use their cone of colds on the party on the first round since they are likely still bunched up. After being hit by 2 cone of cold the party may be suitably weakened that the Oni stick around to finish the job. If not, they would likely flee and attack another time since they are specialists in disguise and stealth.

8) However, most likely scenario would be a night or evening ambush against only part of the party if they split up in town to handle errands.

9) The tactic of grappling and then flying up with an ally adjacent to finish off the grappled target is a good idea. The Onis will likely know whether the party has any dangerous ranged attacks. If possible, they would try to discover whether any of the spellcasters has either misty step or dimension door since it might allow them to escape such a situation.

[Maan]

Give us a report once this is done, the people wants to know how it played out!

[HoboKnight]

Will do. Hopefully, I might need some more advice. :D

[Reach Weapon]

(Basically im looking for "Monsters know what theyre doing" list)

You should probably take a moment and also write out what their actual goals and potential victory conditions are for this encounter.

• Do they need to remove the entire party as a threat to the big plan?
• Are there a specific members they need dead?
• Do they want a hostage?
• Would running the party afoul of the regional authorities be sufficient?

Let's say predicted area of encounter is an open road with a lot of traffic.

In choosing this as their battlefield, it probably means they're trying to hinder the party with a chaotic situation and a lot of collateral damage potential.

I'd expect them to want to cause and keep a crowd, preferably interspersed among the party. I could see them causing a traffic "accident", exploding/burning freight, and/or framing a party member of a crime (perhaps the above arson) and engaging the authorities. Charm might help with this (or attempting to "split" the party).

Some form of the above actually makes Sleep and Change Shape more interesting options, as mixing in with a bunch of low hit point bystanders forces party restraint or inflicts later (assuming the party has a later) consequences.

At this point Cone of Cold is saved for after the party slaughters the bystanders, a particularly juicy shot lining up, or as a disengagement salvo.

A 40' speed (with a 30' jaunt thrown in) should allow them to dash away for some separation, and Mislead, Pass Without a Trace, Darkness, Invisibility and Change Shape is a solid a escape toolbox.

[Samayu]

If they're going to grapple and fly/teleport away with someone, make sure they take the person who would be the most likely to follow them or do damage at range. If they kidnap a flyer, that just means dropping them won't be an option. But it's still an effective way to isolate a target.

[PallyBass]

Oof on the low deception rolls, it's pretty funny though for the PC's to notice some guys giving them the stinkeye in the crowd haha. I am curious to know what will happen next!

If the PC's let the oni go they could maybe try canvassing them again under a different disguise or invisible?

[HoboKnight]

Hey guys, I didn't forget about you and your help :) Last session was super un-exciting regarding onis. Due to abyssmaly bad Deception rolls, I issued an information to the party, that their new hangers-on are seemingly collecting information on them and sizing them up. Party. Gave. Zero. And I mean (0) F...s. At certain point, party asked hanger-ons to guard some NPC, left onis there and wondered off.

Since party is constantly being scryed with Scrying, and Onis get this intel via Sending, they will now approach, in a new form, the party as an archeologists and ask them to help them find some stuff. They want to see the party engage a dungeon and fight and asses them further. Long game.

[Reach Weapon]

They want to see the party engage a dungeon and fight and asses them further. Long game.

I recommend you pre-determine the conditions under which they'd abandon this long game, and simply gank as much of the party as they can, as well as at what point they'd retreat to consolidate their gains.

[PallyBass]

Hey guys, I didn't forget about you and your help :) Last session was super un-exciting regarding onis. Due to abyssmaly bad Deception rolls, I issued an information to the party, that their new hangers-on are seemingly collecting information on them and sizing them up. Party. Gave. Zero. And I mean (0) F...s. At certain point, party asked hanger-ons to guard some NPC, left onis there and wondered off.

Since party is constantly being scryed with Scrying, and Onis get this intel via Sending, they will now approach, in a new form, the party as an archeologists and ask them to help them find some stuff. They want to see the party engage a dungeon and fight and asses them further. Long game.

The moment any dungeon encounter/trap/party decision goes wrong they should definitely strike. Hopefully the Oni reveal goes well with building tension, surprise, and dread.

[Keravath]

Hey guys, I didn't forget about you and your help :) Last session was super un-exciting regarding onis. Due to abyssmaly bad Deception rolls, I issued an information to the party, that their new hangers-on are seemingly collecting information on them and sizing them up. Party. Gave. Zero. And I mean (0) F...s. At certain point, party asked hanger-ons to guard some NPC, left onis there and wondered off.

Since party is constantly being scryed with Scrying, and Onis get this intel via Sending, they will now approach, in a new form, the party as an archeologists and ask them to help them find some stuff. They want to see the party engage a dungeon and fight and asses them further. Long game.

Two things to consider. The long game of the NPCs and the long game of the DM. If these Onis are smart and choose the proper time to strike then the odds of a TPK could be quite high if not guaranteed. Depends on the characters, their capabilities and preparations if any.

So what is the Oni long game? Could they be interested in some new slaves? Perhaps use the PCs as slave gladiators in an underground fighting ring? Plan to kill off or sell the ones they don't want? Do the Onis just want the PCs dead or are there alternatives? The problem with the dead option is that the Oni are pretty likely to achieve it, if not one character at a time then striking in a closely matched fight since their odds of getting away are likely higher than the PCs.

Is that the direction you want the story to go as DM?

If you want the players to be more alert and take precautions then they could discover that some other enemy they have made is plotting to take them out. The PCs then might associate suspicious actions by the Onis with this other group which means that they will likely underestimate the Onis but are less likely perhaps to be caught in a situation leading to a TPK (unless the PCs are a high enough level where even a surprise attack by Onis won't be much of a threat).

[Corran]

Hey all,

as a DM i worry the most, when I need to run high-int, competent, experienced monsters. With the path of my lvl-7 group, they got targeted by 2 of these guys: https://www.dndunleashed.com/home/ne...oni-nightblade

Now, I have studied their statblocks, but IMHO I have a ton of tactics holes in my plan for combat. So, I'll give you what I have and hope for some optimisers to teach me an adittional lesson or 2. (Basically im looking for "Monsters know what theyre doing" list)

Here is what I have so far:

When it's their turn, one of them grapples the target(one of 3 attacks), teleports 30ft to another creature and adds another 20 ft of flying with grappled target, moving up into the air(Movement is half-speed with grappled target. How would you handle encumbrance rules in this case? Could this guy fly up 20 ft AND hold a full-plate clad target next to him?) Second assassin teleports, then flies to the grappled target, does 3 attacks with adittional damage, because ally is next to him. Rinse and repeat. In what cases would holder of target drop it?

10 points of regeneration every turn.

If there is prep time: invisibility and mirror image on both, then action. If there is no prep time at disposal, mentioned tactic seems best.

Let's say predicted area of encounter is an open road with a lot of traffic. Many opportunities to teleport around, but no ledges/balconies to teleport there.

Thanks from to-be-competent assassin guild

You've already thought of a very good combat approach for them, so I dont have much to say other than going through some details.

What are some things that the bad guys have in their favor? They have a few different ways with which they could surprise the party and thus start engagements favorably.

What else? They have regeneration and most of their abilities are at will, which means that attritioning the party can work in their favor assuming they do it in relatively quick succession. This has also synergy with the above. If you can start an encounter favorably, why not split one encounter into multiple ones so you can profit even more? And in between encounters you plan to regain more than the pc's on average (ie pc resources can run out, while most of yours wont and you dont desperately need to rely on any ones that will).

So the plan is simple. Ambush, try to take someone out (ideally the way you said if they can make it work, ie isolating and killing a pc while they are retreating at the same time), go away and regenerate and work on the next ambush. Rinse and repeat. The goal of each ambush is not necessarily to kill someone, it is to survive it whle doing maximal damage to the pcs (so a good ida here is to start by targeting the ranged atwill dpr's while using darkness to cover your retreat particualrly against debilitating spellcasting; nova damage, particularly from range, along with anything that can slow down or restrain are the pc's biggest weapons here, so prioritize accordingly after you take out their primary source/sources of ranged at-will damage). The strategic goal is to perform multiple of such ambishes successfully in as much a quick succession as you can manage. To that end, the battlefield is of outmost importance, and since they are assassins and on the attack they can choose it (even if it means luring the ideally unsuspecting pcs there), so you should choose it wisely.

What battlefield would I choose? I have on in mind, and though I am not sure if it's of maximum efficiency, I think it would be efficient enough, while at the same time interesting and not totally unsporting for the players (ie it would give plyers options to fight back). A small village. Efficiency comes down to opening more ways with which you can ambush the players. First they can shapechange to an NPC (probably one that one pc does not mistrust; ie after killing poor NPC), and use the NPC's identity to spring a trap to one or more of the PCs. Once that's done, and assuming it becomes known to the pc, you can use invisibility and their good stealth score to initiate the second ambush (mix and match). The interesting part is that the pc's will be on their toes if they find out that there are assassins after them that can shapechange. If they barricade or something like that have the assassins threaten to harm villagers, if they barricade someehere with the villagers have one slip inside (too risky to be a smart choice on the assassin's part, but it could be interesting, especially if the pc's cannot detect the enemy but instead they have to figure it out in a detective like fashion such as creating identification codes and interviewing villagers). For extra drama have the assassin that slipped in shapechanged into a child/pc, with the real child/pc is a secret hostage in the hands of the second assassin outside, as a bargaining chip should the first assassin gets caught or something. Small village, especially if semi isolated (so that the idea of fleeing is not ideal, as these baddies would have a party against pc's in the wilderness), seems like a cool setting for inflicting both a little of terror and thrill to your pcs. Might want to have an NPC with a raise dead just in case your party cannot do that already, just so there is a secondary goal of protecting the one NPC that can potentially mitigate your loses should the assassins start dropping pc dead boddies from the sky or anything after/if the remaining pc's barricade somewhere trying to force a stalemate. Play up the resource game as well (and by resource here I mean actual resources, like food and water). Poison well, burn food storage, threaten easy targets, plus whatever else that one can do to demoralise and force a barricaded enemy to make a mistake. They are also evil, so that means they have more options when it comes to that kind of thing.

[HoboKnight]

Heyya guys. For two weekends, we did not play, hopefully, we do it this weekend.

Atrittion is a very good idea. Get damage, run away, regeneration, invisibility, return. The Shadow Jaunt enables onis to flee grapples, proned statutes, etc.

Hostage situation " Drop your weapons or I'll bite off this little girls shoulder" is also a great opportunity. Thanks!