Star Wars: Andor BBY5

[Peelee]

He clearly is, though? What do you mean?

Canonically he is not force sensitive. If you think, "but he clearly is, what the hell is that?!", then I agree with you.

As I said it was the dumbest decision the writers of Rogue 1 made by far.

[Aeson]

Canonically he is not force sensitive. If you think, "but he clearly is, what the hell is that?!", then I agree with you.

As I said it was the dumbest decision the writers of Rogue 1 made by far.

More specifically, there's an interview somewhere where one of the writers, or maybe someone else associated with the production of Rogue One, asserted something along the lines of "Chirrut isn't Force-sensitive."

[KillianHawkeye]

More specifically, there's an interview somewhere where one of the writers, or maybe someone else associated with the production of Rogue One, asserted something along the lines of "Chirrut isn't Force-sensitive."

They're wrong.

[Peelee]

They're wrong.

You could write a letter to Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo complaining about it, but yeah. Chirrut can't use the Force.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

You could write a letter to Leland Chee and Pablo Hidalgo complaining about it, but yeah. Chirrut can't use the Force.

Is there a chance that we're splitting hairs here? Perhaps he sense some things ridiculously well but can't forceheal or forcechoke?

[KillianHawkeye]

Chirrut is doing more than just the typical blind kung fu tricks in the film. He can dodge blaster shots as well as (or better than) any Jedi. He can fire his staff blaster to take down enemy TIE Fighters, I'm talking trick shots like a blind Hawkeye out there. He calls out to Jyn from across a crowded street because he somehow knows she's wearing a kyber crystal. He can sense that Cassian is contemplating murder.

I don't know what they call that in kung fu movies, and yes I know he's played by a big kung fu movie star, but in Star Wars we call those things The Force.

Clearly he never does anything as blatant as levitating objects or affecting someone's mind. He's not in any way formally trained as a Jedi. But his passive sense of the world around him is too good to be anything but a specialized Force talent.



Maybe it's technically correct to say that he can't USE The Force in an active sense, since everything he does with it is passive and reactive, but that's not the same as being Force sensitive.

[Peelee]

Chirrut is doing more than just the typical blind kung fu tricks in the film. He can dodge blaster shots as well as (or better than) any Jedi. He can fire his staff blaster to take down enemy TIE Fighters, I'm talking trick shots like a blind Hawkeye out there. He calls out to Jyn from across a crowded street because he somehow knows she's wearing a kyber crystal. He can sense that Cassian is contemplating murder.

I don't know what they call that in kung fu movies, and yes I know he's played by a big kung fu movie star, but in Star Wars we call those things The Force.

Clearly he never does anything as blatant as levitating objects or affecting someone's mind. He's not in any way formally trained as a Jedi. But his passive sense of the world around him is too good to be anything but a specialized Force talent.

Exactly.

Maybe it's technically correct to say that he can't USE The Force in an active sense, since everything he does with it is passive and reactive, but that's not the same as being Force sensitive.

I'd call shooting down a TIE fighter while being blind active. Also, with a portable hand weapon. Also not a huge fan of that, but it'd not as bad as him not being able to use the Force when he clearly does. And, again, simply not letting the actor play him as blind would have solved virtually everything.

[Maelstrom]

Oh man episode 10...heartbeat in overload. Andy Serkis FTW. That is all ;)

[Peelee]

Well that was heartbreaking.

Spoiler

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Even knowing they are going to die there if they don't escape, Kino still needs to be pushed, because he knows there's only one way out, and that one way is not available to him. He knows he is doomed. And he does it anyway and leads the prisoners.

Hell of a leader. Sacrifice was definitely the theme of that episode.

[Maelstrom]

Well that was heartbreaking.

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Even knowing they are going to die there if they don't escape, Kino still needs to be pushed, because he knows there's only one way out, and that one way is not available to him. He knows he is doomed. And he does it anyway and leads the prisoners.

Hell of a leader. Sacrifice was definitely the theme of that episode.

Spoiler: Sacrifice

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Agreed, between the Prison Break where they/we knew some would be sacrificed for the greater good (and esp Kino, who I'll still holdout, hoping to see him again -- c'mon, I'd hope there is some emergency gear stowed *somewhere*!!), we see Mon possibly having to "sacrifice" her daughter for the cause, Luthen ready to sacrifice Kreegyr to keep ISB from suspecting they have a mole in their midst, and speaking of that mole , Lonni realizing he'll be sacrificing an 'idealic' life to be run from the inside for the Rebellion and then Luthen who has 'sacrifice everything' for the cause.

I've just finished watching and will watch one more time tonight with the wife, but man, it just keeps getting better and better. Just bummed that we're almost at the end of the season.
Oh and yes, we have an answer to the maelstroms outside the prison...quite clever for the most part...just have to wonder how they get that water out once it's through the turbines ;)

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Sacrifice

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Agreed, between the Prison Break where they/we knew some would be sacrificed for the greater good (and esp Kino, who I'll still holdout, hoping to see him again -- c'mon, I'd hope there is some emergency gear stowed *somewhere*!!), we see Mon possibly having to "sacrifice" her daughter for the cause, Luthen ready to sacrifice Kreegyr to keep ISB from suspecting they have a mole in their midst, and speaking of that mole , Lonni realizing he'll be sacrificing an 'idealic' life to be run from the inside for the Rebellion and then Luthen who has 'sacrifice everything' for the cause.

I've just finished watching and will watch one more time tonight with the wife, but man, it just keeps getting better and better. Just bummed that we're almost at the end of the season.
Oh and yes, we have an answer to the maelstroms outside the prison...quite clever for the most part...just have to wonder how they get that water out once it's through the turbines ;)

Spoiler: Kino

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"You see someone's confused, someone who is lost, you get them moving and you keep them moving until we put this place behind us!"

I choose to believe that people saw and helped him, even though it's not really that kind of show.

Also, "ONE WAY OUT!" gave me chills. So simple and so potentially clichéd but so well done.

[Palanan]

That may have been the best acting I’ve ever seen from Andy Serkis.

Deeply powerful, both Kino and the episode as a whole.

[ecarden]

What do folks think about Luthen as a character/rebel? He's clearly being set up to be moderately antagonistic (use Imperial tactics, orders the assassination of Cassian), but is also clearly extremely loyal to the Rebellion, such as it is at this point?

[Maelstrom]

What do folks think about Luthen as a character/rebel? He's clearly being set up to be moderately antagonistic (use Imperial tactics, orders the assassination of Cassian), but is also clearly extremely loyal to the Rebellion, such as it is at this point?

For me, that is exactly what Luthien is saying in his monologue, esp the bit "I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them"...

Spoiler: Luthien's monologue

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"...and what do you sacrifice?"

"Calm. Kindness, kinship, love. I've given up all chance at inner peace, I've made my mind a sunless place. I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote fifteen years ago from which there's only one conclusion: I'm damned for what I do. My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my—my eagerness to fight, has set me on a path from which there's no escape. I yearned to be a savior for injustice without contemplating the cost, and by the time I looked down there was no longer any ground beneath my feet.

"What is my—what is my sacrifice? I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them. I burned my decency for someone else's future! I burned my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see! Now, the ego that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude... so, what do I sacrifice? Everything!

"Just stay with me, Lonnie. I need all the heroes I can get."

Luthien is *exactly* the kind of personality the Rebellion needs driving it from outside the limelight

[KillianHawkeye]

It makes sense that the darker side of the Rebellion is getting the spotlight in this series, since it was also part of Cassian's backstory in Rogue One. The original trilogy makes the Rebels all seem like good-hearted, plucky freedom fighters, but there always had to be their share of spies, assassins, and saboteurs among them.

I remember Cassian saying that he and the other Rogue volunteers had all done terrible things for the Rebellion, and they all just wanted to make sure it was to accomplish something rather than give everything up to run and hide.

And this is where it all starts.

[Peelee]

It makes sense that the darker side of the Rebellion is getting the spotlight in this series, since it was also part of Cassian's backstory in Rogue One. The original trilogy makes the Rebels all seem like good-hearted, plucky freedom fighters, but there always had to be their share of spies, assassins, and saboteurs among them.

I remember Cassian saying that he and the other Rogue volunteers had all done terrible things for the Rebellion, and they all just wanted to make sure it was to accomplish something rather than give everything up to run and hide.

And this is where it all starts.

Aye, previously this was the most famous spy in the Rebellion.

[KillianHawkeye]

Aye, previously this was the most famous spy in the Rebellion.

This is totally unrelated, but does anyone know how to erase the knowledge of something I've just read? Asking for a friend...

[Peelee]

This is totally unrelated, but does anyone know how to erase the knowledge of something I've just read? Asking for a friend...

This might help.

Go ahead, say something else. I can do this all day.

[PontificatusRex]

What do folks think about Luthen as a character/rebel? He's clearly being set up to be moderately antagonistic (use Imperial tactics, orders the assassination of Cassian), but is also clearly extremely loyal to the Rebellion, such as it is at this point?

Do we know for a fact that Luthen ordered Cassian's assassination? I remember it was his assistant giving the order and at the time I got the impression that she might have been using her own initiative there. Something about there interactions has made me feel that she doesn't more than just relay his orders.

Also, it really seemed to me that Luthen was trying to cultivate a relationship with Cassian in the hopes of recruiting him as an agent during their interactions, not just hire a disposable mercenary, even if the money was used as the hook.

[Thomas Cardew]

Do we know for a fact that Luthen ordered Cassian's assassination? I remember it was his assistant giving the order and at the time I got the impression that she might have been using her own initiative there. Something about there interactions has made me feel that she doesn't more than just relay his orders.

Also, it really seemed to me that Luthen was trying to cultivate a relationship with Cassian in the hopes of recruiting him as an agent during their interactions, not just hire a disposable mercenary, even if the money was used as the hook.

That was my initial interpretation as well, but it appears he did. You see the assistant order it in episode 7; in episode 8 Luthen knows Vel and Cinta are hunting for Andor is okay with it. It could be that Luthen thinks they're trying to find Cassian without know they're going to kill Cassian... but Luthen's also upset knowing Andor is a lose end. Luthen might be trying to pitch him one last time, but the implication seems to be Luthen's aware/ responsible for the order.

Side question for the more lore aware : was the Vel - Mon Mothma relationship a pre-existing thing, an easter egg for aware fans, or something the show introduced?

[Peelee]

That was my initial interpretation as well, but it appears he did. You see the assistant order it in episode 7; in episode 8 Luthen knows Vel and Cinta are hunting for Andor is okay with it. It could be that Luthen thinks they're trying to find Cassian without know they're going to kill Cassian... but Luthen's also upset knowing Andor is a lose end. Luthen might be trying to pitch him one last time, but the implication seems to be Luthen's aware/ responsible for the order.

Side question for the more lore aware : was the Vel - Mon Mothma relationship a pre-existing thing, an easter egg for aware fans, or something the show introduced?

Vel is an entirely new character in the show, as is the rest of Mon Mothma's family.

[Maelstrom]

Vel is an entirely new character in the show, as is the rest of Mon Mothma's family.

With the exception of Lieda -- she's been around since Westend Games (Dark Empire Sourcebook) in the early 90's. She had a son in that as well that has not popped up here yet

[Peelee]

With the exception of Lieda -- she's been around since Westend Games (Dark Empire Sourcebook) in the early 90's. She had a son in that as well that has not popped up here yet

Ah, ya got me there. I'm not terribly strong on the gaming and comics parts of Star Wars.

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: Not overly impressed...

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... with this arc to be honest.

It was fine but thought the second arc was stronger, also didn't like how the reason that the prisoners had to rebel was that one was transferred back to the same facility - if that was a problem then it would likely have been a problem no matter which facility they were transferred into and would have been a problem when others where transferred into this facility.

Not sure why the spy with the ISB was given a face to face either - it wouldn't be unexpected for some in an organisation like ISB to secretly monitor others in ISB and there didn't seem to be any need for a face to face at all as they could talk on without one.

It is still a fine show however.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Not overly impressed...

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... with this arc to be honest.

It was fine but thought the second arc was stronger, also didn't like how the reason that the prisoners had to rebel was that one was transferred back to the same facility - if that was a problem then it would likely have been a problem no matter which facility they were transferred into and would have been a problem when others where transferred into this facility.

It is still a fine show however.

Why would you think that?

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why would you think that? This is seemingly a low-security prison. Cassian didn't do violent crimes, it seems the other prisoners aren't displaying any latent violent tendencies. The prisoner transfer is not only new, but also likely bound for much harsher prisons where everyone is in for life and they don't need to worry about uprisings. Maybe places like legends Kessel where they could just work you until you die.

If they're reshuffling prisoners to other prisons, they're not going to send you to a place where people think they have any hope. They're going to send you to a place where nobody else will give a **** because they're already in there til they die. That was the mistake, someone slipped through a crack on a new policy and the entire floor of prisoners paid for it.

[KillianHawkeye]

I'm sure we'll get to see a scathing break down of somebody's unparalleled incompetence when we see how the Imperials react to news of a major jail break next episode.

[dancrilis]

Why would you think that?

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why would you think that? This is seemingly a low-security prison. Cassian didn't do violent crimes, it seems the other prisoners aren't displaying any latent violent tendencies. The prisoner transfer is not only new, but also likely bound for much harsher prisons where everyone is in for life and they don't need to worry about uprisings. Maybe places like legends Kessel where they could just work you until you die.

If they're reshuffling prisoners to other prisons, they're not going to send you to a place where people think they have any hope. They're going to send you to a place where nobody else will give a **** because they're already in there til they die. That was the mistake, someone slipped through a crack on a new policy and the entire floor of prisoners paid for it.

Spoiler: I did consider that...

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...and it could be used as an explanation, but it seems that is me filling in the blanks with pieces that I don't think fit, it seemed to me that the prisoners were expected to be transferred to other work when they 'got out' and that to me implied a similiar facility. They mentioned that the Empire was using them to keep costs down so having a similiar facility with much more security just doesn't fit right with how I feel they presented it.

My preferred pieces to fit into the puzzle are that the guy from 4 was released as intended, immediately got arrested (likely in a similiar scenario to Andor's arrest) got sent back and that kickstarted a riot on 2 when he told the story and then the story was picked up incorrectly on the other levels - i.e no one is getting out.
I just like that version better for my head canon - and leads into the idea that The Empire as a whole is merely a massive prison camp - as such there is no getting out other then taking down The Empire.

But a lot of that is me merely squaring circles in my head - I didn't think the episodes delivered it well (which in no way should impact your enjoyment).

[ecarden]

Spoiler: I did consider that...

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...and it could be used as an explanation, but it seems that is me filling in the blanks with pieces that I don't think fit, it seemed to me that the prisoners were expected to be transferred to other work when they 'got out' and that to me implied a similiar facility. They mentioned that the Empire was using them to keep costs down so having a similiar facility with much more security just doesn't fit right with how I feel they presented it.

My preferred pieces to fit into the puzzle are that the guy from 4 was released as intended, immediately got arrested (likely in a similiar scenario to Andor's arrest) got sent back and that kickstarted a riot on 2 when he told the story and then the story was picked up incorrectly on the other levels - i.e no one is getting out.
I just like that version better for my head canon - and leads into the idea that The Empire as a whole is merely a massive prison camp - as such there is no getting out other then taking down The Empire.

But a lot of that is me merely squaring circles in my head - I didn't think the episodes delivered it well (which in no way should impact your enjoyment).

So, my thought was

Spoiler: ambiguity

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That it's unclear and that's deliberate. Either of your options is possible (note, my preferred alternative is neither of these, but that it was genuinely exactly what the doctor said, a mistake. The guy was supposed to be released, but was accidentally sent to another floor and the guards fried everyone to cover it up and now can't release anyone without news leaking out.

It wasn't a deliberate plan, just bureaucratic incompetence and callousness, enabled by the power given to them by the Empire. And the cruelty of it. Note, if they were either more open and willing to admit mistakes, or allowed contact with the outside world, then the whole thing could be corrected, it's only because they don't do either that the paranoia and fear they're trying to create turn toxic.

However, it seems clear to me that the ambiguity is intended? We don't know, because Andor can't know, because the Empire is keeping it a secret. Soon enough, I think the Empire will start looking into it and we'll learn more.

But, of course, if that ambiguity doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. De gustibus.

[Maelstrom]

Definately a bit of a slower burn episode (well, with a scene that is very much not so!),

Spoiler: Espisode 11

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But the scene between Luthen and Saw. These two and their acting skills, backed up by fantastic writers, set designers, and the cinematographers -- it's just phenomenal all around.

And the scene with Bee...it's like if a dog could talk. Makes me wonder, though if Maarva had noticed the people watching her and known that the only way out would be under a sheet (and the sickness, doctor visit, Sisters of Ferrix, all of it were not a plan...or she simply knocked off (ya never know with this show!)

Val...though. I cannot get over how undisciplined and impulsive she is...she is the weakest link here and I'm sure we'll eventually see consequences.

Now, the scene with luthan and the 'Cantell-Class cruiser' (being based on Colin Cantwell's original concept art as seen here. That was some great action with well thought out action/countermeasures (for the most part -- does Luthens ship have shields, cause if not, the TIE Pilots are awful shots as well, not even being able to hit an immobilized craft) -- also, why scramble a TIE bomber?. The shots and lights over the planet..just gorgeous.

So much more

[Joran]

New episode:

Do we know what Luthen and Kleya were talking about? What's the other piece?

Just to help me get my head around it, because I've been watching this series week by week and so may be forgetting things. Next week is the last episode, so here's where things stand.

Spoiler

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Cassian's sister: His search for her is the precipitating event. I'm doubtful we'll see her next episode, but we may get some more info.

Kreegyr: About to attack the power station; ISB knows about it. I wonder if we'll see the attack. Saw was successfully called off and won't be participating.

Ferrix: Bix still in custody, looks in really bad shape.
There will be a funeral in 2 days.
ISB agent in place. (Is Dedra coming herself?)
Cinta in place. (I don't think Luthen / Vel are coming?)
Syril is on his way.
Cassian and Melshi separate and I assume Cassian's coming.

Mon Mothma seems like she's acceding to the gangster's request to set up his son with her daughter.

Anything else I'm missing?