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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Chained) and Rogue (Unchained)

    I'm interested in starting work on a tier list for Pathfinder, in the same way that we have a tier list for 3.5 (link for reference).

    There has been an informal attempt to do a tier list for Pathfinder, which I've also used in reference for this thread (link). But a formal collection of threads, where everyone discusses and debates how classes should be tiered, is something I think would be useful for Pathfinder, in the same way the tier list for 3.5 is.

    This thread is for the two versions of Rogue (Chained) and Rogue (Unchained) and their various archetypes. If there are any archetypes that are significantly better than the others, they can be tiered separately.

    (edited)

    Rogue (Chained) - The informal thread originally pegged this at about a Tier 5. However, the forum seems to think this class is much more useful, rating it much closer to Tier 4. Good choice of archetypes can likely take this up half a tier.
    Rogue (Unchained) - The informal thread pegs this at about a Tier 4. However, the forum seems to think this class is more useful, rating it around Tier 3.5. Good choice of archetypes can likely take this up half a tier.
    Eldritch Scoundrel Archetype - Losing a few class features in exchange for sixth-level Wizard spells takes both Chained and Unchained Rogue up to Tier 3, with Chained Rogue ranked slightly lower.
    Phantom Thief Archetype - The general consensus is that this doesn't really change overall power of either Unchained Rogue or Chained Rogue.

    Voting is still open, if you want to add your vote:

    Current Vote Totals:

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Unchained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna, Maat Mons, Totally Not Evil , Rynjin - 3.0

    Average – 3.0

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Chained)
    Maat Mons, Gnaeus, Totally Not Evil – 3.0
    Avatar Vecna – 3.3
    Kurald Galain – 4.0

    Average – 3.26

    Rogue (Unchained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus – 3.0
    Avatar Vecna – 3.7
    Maat Mons – 3.8
    Endless Rain, Rynjin – 4.0

    Average – 3.58

    Phantom Thief Rogue (Unchained)
    Avatar Vecna, Kurald Galain, Gnaeus – 3.0
    Maat Mons – 3.6
    Endless Rain, Rynjin – 4.0
    Darvin – 5

    Average - 3.65

    Rogue (Chained)
    Avatar Vecna – 3.7
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Endless Rain, Totally Not Evil - 4.0
    Maat Mons – 4.4
    Rynjin – 5

    Average – 4.15

    Phantom Thief Rogue (Chained)

    Avatar Vecna – 3.3
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Endless Rain, Totally Not Evil - 4.0
    Maat Mons – 4.6
    Darvin, Rynjin – 5

    Average – 4.23



    What are the tiers?


    The simple answer here is that tier one is the best, the home of things on the approximate problem solving scale of wizards, and tier six is the worst, land of commoners. And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high.

    A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked.

    Consistent throughout these tiers is the notion of problems and the solving thereof. For the purposes of this tier system, the problem space can be said to be inclusive of combat, social interaction, and exploration, with the heaviest emphasis placed on combat. A problem could theoretically fall outside of that space, but things inside that space are definitely problems. Another way to view the idea of problem solving is through the lens of the niche ranking system. A niche filled tends to imply the capacity to solve a type of problem, whether it's a status condition in the case of healing, or an enemy that just has too many hit points in the case of melee combat. It's not a perfect measure, both because some niches have a lot of overlap in the kinds of problems they can solve and because, again, the niches aren't necessarily all inclusive, but they can act as a good tool for class evaluation.

    Tier one: Incredibly good at solving nearly all problems. This is the realm of clerics, druids, and wizards, classes that open up with strong combat spells backed up by utility, and then get massively stronger from there. If you're not keeping up with that core trio of tier one casters, then you probably don't belong here.

    Tier two: We're just a step below tier one here, in the land of classes around the sorcerer level of power. Generally speaking, this means relaxing one of the two tier one assumptions, either getting us to very good at solving nearly all problems, or incredibly good at solving most problems. But, as will continue to be the case as these tiers go on, there aren't necessarily these two simple categories for this tier. You gotta lose something compared to the tier one casters, but what you lose doesn't have to be in some really specific proportions.

    Tier three: Again, we gotta sacrifice something compared to tier two, here taking us to around the level of a vanilla Magus. The usual outcome is that you are very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more. Of course, there are other possibilities, for example that you might instead be competent at solving nearly all problems.

    Tier four: Here we're in Fighter, Paladin and Barbarian territory. Starting from that standard tier three position, the usual sweet spots here are very good at solving a few problems, or alright at solving many problems.

    Tier five: We're heading close to the dregs here. Tier five is the tier of chained Monk, classes that are as bad as you can be without being an aristocrat or a commoner. Classes here are sometimes very good at solving nearly no problems, or alright at solving a few, or some other function thereof. It's weak, is the point.

    Tier six: And here we have commoner tier. Or, the bottom is commoner. The top is approximately aristocrat. You don't necessarily have nothing in this tier, but you have close enough to it.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    I’d like to invite discussion of the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype. It gets spells of up to 6th level, drawn from the Wizard spell list. That seems like it should automatically put it in Tier 3. But I’ve seen people calling it a bad archetype.

    Granted, the archetype gives up 4 skill points per level and half of Rogue’s sneak attack progression. Which makes you just straight-up worse than a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor, an Eldritch Poisoner Alchemist, or especially a Vivisectionist Alchemist. But being clearly worse than several Tier 3 classes isn’t incompatible with being in Tier 3 itself.

    I can’t think of any reason, off hand, that anyone would ever play an Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue when Vivisectionist Alchemist is a thing. But I’m still getting lower-Tier-3 vibes from it.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Compared to the much-maligned 3E rogue, let's start by pointing out the extra things an unchained Pathfinder Rogue gets out of the box,
    • Dex to hit and to damage
    • Sneak attack works on undead, plants, constructs and swarms without any investment
    • Free debuffs on every sneak attack
    • Get a rogue-only feat (called "talent") every other level, which can include limited spellcasting
    • There's feats that let you teleport, use stealth while observed in bright light, or blind an enemy as part of a full attack


    Aside from that, the rogue has a ton of archetypes, possibly more than any other class; and several of them can stack. Standouts include,
    • Eldritch Scoundrel gains 6-level spellcasting from the wizard list, and can go invisible as a swift action.
    • Guerrilla gets total concealment in dim light, and of course items exist that make it dim light around you.
    • Skulking Slayer can replace sneak attacks by, among others, blinding enemies. Yes, this is as nasty as it sounds.
    • Snoop adds a free +1d6 to certain skills all the time, and to any other skill a few times per day.
    • Sylvan Trickster gets hexes from the witch class (i.e. at-will unlimited use spell-like abilities, which can include flight at level 5).
    • Thug can frighten enemies to run away on any intimidate check, and there's ways to add intimidate checks to all your attacks.


    So, where does this leave us? A dual-wielding rogue with either a flanking buddy or using dirty tricks to blind enemies can shred level-appropriate opponents with little trouble, and has good defenses due to high dexterity and debuffing attacks. Out of combat, the rogue has the best skill list and the most skill points in the game, and has talents and archetypes that can boost that further. Frankly, a decently-built rogue has an answer to every situation, and probably the most versatility of any non-caster class. Tier three is described as "very good at solving a couple of problems and competent at solving a few more"; or clasically, "capable of doing one thing well, while still being useful when that one thing isn't appropriate" and that description fits the rogue very well. So my verdict is Tier 3, maybe a low three but still a three.

    What about the core rogue? It's not one of the better classes but it's much better than its reputation warrants. It still gets almost everything from the points above, except the debuffs on a sneak attack, and it has to spend a feat or item to get dex to hit and damage. It has a bit less power than a PF Fighter but heaps more versatility; so I'd rate it the same as the fighter: Tier 4.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2022-09-23 at 06:44 AM.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    I wanna give highlight to two particular archetypes.

    Phantom Thief

    Phantom Thief gives up sneak attack, trapfinding, and trap sense. In exchange, they have all skills as class skills, can take certain limited-number-available rogue talents any number of times (combat feat granting talents, but more importantly the magic-granting rogue talents). They gain an initiative bonus in an easy-to-control circumstance. Finally, arguably the most interesting thing about it, Phantom Thief has Refined Education. At every odd-numbered level, select any skill you want; that skill is unchained, you get a bonus to the skill equal to half your rogue level rounded down, and that same bonus counts as ranks for the purposes of determining when you unlock Unchained Skill benefits. Unchained Diplomacy allows for using Diplomacy in combat earlier than usual, or can make the benefits last much longer if you take your time. Unchained Intimidate combined with Dazzling Display can inflict more severe fear conditions on entire groups at once, up to a maximum of "cowering 1d4 rounds" at lvl 14. Unchained Heal with Healer's Hands is an easy way to cure ability damage starting at lvl 4; starting at lvl 7, the HP healing is starting to get pretty ridiculous too; combine both these with the right magic talents and you've got a really solid support rogue. Unchained Craft makes it a better source of money in the early levels (still not great though), but starting at lvl 14, your Unchained Crafts can make any magic item appropriate to the craft specialty in question - zero feats required. A Phantom Thief 14 who just picked 7 craft skills can probably make basically any magic item, which is most comparable to Artificer. Additionally, you craft at the speed you would craft nonmagic items - which is generally slower, yes, but your crafting speed increases with the square of your craft bonus, so as long as your bonus keeps improving, your speed keeps improving...whereas most crafters hit a point where they can't make magic items faster.

    TL;DR Unchained Rogue, by default, is a very solid damage dealer who also has a good selection of skills and utility class features. Phantom Thief gives up the damage potential in exchange for slightly more magic than normal rogue can get, but massively improved skills. The flexibility Refined Education is arguably T3 all on its own (one option is diet artificer). If normal rogue is T3, I'm not sure this pushes it to T2, but I'm not sure it doesn't either - there's some really powerful abusable options here you could select, and while it's not as good as 9th lvl spells, it's still close to T2 definition, in a sense. If normal rogue is a high T4, though, then I think Phantom Thief giving up damage for magic/utility versatility/power is an easy tier up. Phantom Thief is also great for NPCs who don't expect to be fighting much - it's "better expert", essentially.

    Sapper

    Sapper gives up Trapfinding for the ability to destroy walls in a new way. Not a better way than just attacking with the right nonmagical nonmasterwork weapon...but a new way. Sapper gives up its first rogue talent for a bonus to finding/disabling traps, and a bonus to other people's strength checks to deal with barriers using pure physical force; the skill bonus will lag behind the trapfinding you gave up before too long, and you still can't find magic traps on your own. Sapper gives up its second rogue talent for the ability to sell garbage for pennies - specifically, 1d10 gp per level per dungeon. Assuming 14 encounters per level, and assuming each encounter is its own dungeon (after which you run back to town to sell the garbage you found for pennies), by the time you hit lvl 20, that's 2660d10 gp, or ~14630 gp...so, ~1.6625% of your WBL, if you're cheesing this ability to hell and back. If you have a more reasonable "1 dungeon per level", which is still arguably more than you'd actually get playing it out, that's 190d10, or ~1045 gp, or ~0.11875% WBL.

    So, a rogue with this archetype still has sneak attack. That's not nothing But you're giving up your first two rogue talents for worthless garbage abilities, and you're giving up Trapfinding; the two rogue talents alone means you're gonna spend your whole career lagging behind the capabilities of other rogues. I'm not sure this is definitely enough for it to go down a tier (since...I mean it still has skills and SA, and that's most of the reason rogue is the tier it is), but losing two rogue talents, especially the first two, is...rough. Real rough.


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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I’d like to invite discussion of the Eldritch Scoundrel archetype. It gets spells of up to 6th level, drawn from the Wizard spell list. That seems like it should automatically put it in Tier 3. But I’ve seen people calling it a bad archetype.

    Granted, the archetype gives up 4 skill points per level and half of Rogue’s sneak attack progression. Which makes you just straight-up worse than a Sanctified Slayer Inquisitor, an Eldritch Poisoner Alchemist, or especially a Vivisectionist Alchemist. But being clearly worse than several Tier 3 classes isn’t incompatible with being in Tier 3 itself.

    I can’t think of any reason, off hand, that anyone would ever play an Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue when Vivisectionist Alchemist is a thing. But I’m still getting lower-Tier-3 vibes from it.
    Eldritch Scoundrel archetype was pegged in the prototype thread as being about half a tier higher than regular rogue and Unchained Rogue when applied to each (3.40 for Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue versus 4.0 for Unchained Rogue, and 4.38 for Chained Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue versus 4.88 for Chained Rogue). I'm definitely interested in a further discussion as to what tier the archetype changes Rogue to.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I can’t think of any reason, off hand, that anyone would ever play an Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue when Vivisectionist Alchemist is a thing. But I’m still getting lower-Tier-3 vibes from it.
    I can think of a reason: the wizard spell list is better than the alchemist's, or for that matter the inquisitor's.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Unchained Crafts can make any magic item appropriate to the craft specialty in question - zero feats required. A Phantom Thief 14 who just picked 7 craft skills can probably make basically any magic item, which is most comparable to Artificer.
    The difference is that PF crafting just gives you the items for half price, instead of the "XP is a river" loophole that 3E has. I don't think this is enough for tier two, really. I agree with the rest of your post.
    Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    Eldritch Scoundrel archetype was pegged in the prototype thread as being about half a tier higher than regular rogue and Unchained Rogue when applied to each (3.40 for Unchained Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue versus 4.0 for Unchained Rogue, and 4.38 for Chained Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue versus 4.88 for Chained Rogue). I'm definitely interested in a further discussion as to what tier the archetype changes Rogue to.
    If we want a comparison, the most direct to make is Magus, which is kinda the intent of the archetype design. ES Rogue gets half as much SA and rogue talents in exchange for magus casting, although they don't get spell combat. but 5d6 SA is still really solid bonus damage, and I think it competes well enough with the ability to cast a spell while getting attacks. Magus gets to cast in heavy armor (eventually), while ES rogue never gets to cast even in light, but rogues are kinda eh on armor anyway. Rogue gets (slightly) better skills overall, Magus gets better saves.

    the two of them feel pretty on par with one another, but Chained ES Rogue is considered a low T4, while Magus is considered a mid T3? What??


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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    If we want a comparison, the most direct to make is Magus, which is kinda the intent of the archetype design. ES Rogue gets half as much SA and rogue talents in exchange for magus casting, although they don't get spell combat. but 5d6 SA is still really solid bonus damage, and I think it competes well enough with the ability to cast a spell while getting attacks. Magus gets to cast in heavy armor (eventually), while ES rogue never gets to cast even in light, but rogues are kinda eh on armor anyway. Rogue gets (slightly) better skills overall, Magus gets better saves.

    the two of them feel pretty on par with one another, but Chained ES Rogue is considered a low T4, while Magus is considered a mid T3? What??
    If I were to guess, it's because casting a spell means you have the versatility of casting whatever spell best suits you during combat - not to mention all the support the Magus class grants towards casting - while Sneak Attack is simply bonus damage that you might not be able to trigger. But I'm not really familiar with either. That's the reason I'm creating these threads - to spark more debate and get comparisons like this.

    And Magus is the definitive Tier 3, apparently.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I can think of a reason: the wizard spell list is better than the alchemist's, or for that matter the inquisitor's.


    The difference is that PF crafting just gives you the items for half price, instead of the "XP is a river" loophole that 3E has. I don't think this is enough for tier two, really. I agree with the rest of your post.
    "XP is a river" loophole was essentially "XP costs for crafting items are actually lower than they seem on paper". PF crafting gets rid of XP costs entirely, so it's actually better than "XP is a river" loophole, in terms of the XP costs of crafting. Not worse, the way you're implying. The main thing that makes me hesitant to call it T2 (provided that base rogue is T3, which...apparently it's T5? What???) is that it's hard to get PF items for cheaper than 50%, while 3.5 had a litany of feats for reducing the prices even further; combine that with how artificer's specific method of crafting can craft stuff at much lower spell levels/caster levels than default to make things even cheaper, and it's easy to see why such 3.5 crafting is T1 on its own. I think "merely" double WBL is enough to get you much bigger and better toys than most people, but affording game-breaking spells built into items is a lot harder (and there's a lot fewer game-breaking spells in PF).

    If you had the Phantom Thief ability in 3.5 and every craft skill could make magic items without needing a feat investment, I think it'd be T2 pretty easily. I'm just unsure if PF WBLmancy or spells are so easy to break that this ability is T2 on its own. It does feel like a pretty solid T3 though.

    It's also worth mentioning: the ability is only "craft basically any magic item" if you took 7 crafts for your super-unlocks. That means you didn't take anything else before then, which...probably not a great idea if you have to play through the low levels, when the craft unlocks are just a slight money advantage rather than magic item creation. If I were playing in a real game, I'd probably pick other stuff for my first 6, and then my 7th one would be a craft of some kind, so I could make some magic items at lvl 14. If I were doing it...

    Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Intimidate, Bluff, Sense Motive, Craft/Woodworking is a solid first seven super-unlocks. That gets you a bunch of face skills (powerful on their own, even stronger unlocked, even stronger unlocked early), Heal for some serious ability damage recovery, and later serious HP recovery, and then a Craft skill that lets you make wands, staffs, and some rods. Maybe some wondrous items too, depending? You probably don't wanna be making magic wooden weapons/armor, but I guess if you make them ironwood it's viable? But in terms of "stuff to give up SA for", that's a really solid list. Combat-viable diplomacy, healing, and debuffing.


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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    If I were to guess, it's because casting a spell means you have the versatility of casting whatever spell best suits you during combat - not to mention all the support the Magus class grants towards casting - while Sneak Attack is simply bonus damage that you might not be able to trigger. But I'm not really familiar with either. That's the reason I'm creating these threads - to spark more debate and get comparisons like this.

    And Magus is the definitive Tier 3, apparently.
    I don't necessarily disagree with Magus being definitive T3. 6th lvl casting off the wizard list is really nice, and it gets a bunch of class feature that play off that. It's ES Rogue being like 1.5 tiers down that's baffling to me.

    EDIT: I guess from my point of view: class features that synergize with spellcasting are nice to have, but they are strictly secondary. Outside of extreme cases, what tier you're in is basically determined by how much casting you get. T1 is prepared 9th, T2 is spontaneous 9th, T3 is 6th, T4 is 4th (or noncasters who are really good at what they do), T5 is noncasters that aren't particularly good, and T6 is noncasters that are hot garbage. All of this is basically regardless of what other features they do or do not have: unless you have extreme list limitations, like "a PrC specific spell list instead of copying the wizard list", or like "wizard list, but only the blasting spells" the way things like 3.5 warmage got...then 6th lvl spellcasting is still 6th lvl spellcasting. It's pretty freaking solid, and being a full 1.5 tiers down because of the other stuff you have being kind of lame is...questionable.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2022-09-23 at 07:26 AM.


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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree with Magus being definitive T3. 6th lvl casting off the wizard list is really nice, and it gets a bunch of class feature that play off that. It's ES Rogue being like 1.5 tiers down that's baffling to me.

    EDIT: I guess from my point of view: class features that synergize with spellcasting are nice to have, but they are strictly secondary. Outside of extreme cases, what tier you're in is basically determined by how much casting you get. T1 is prepared 9th, T2 is spontaneous 9th, T3 is 6th, T4 is 4th (or noncasters who are really good at what they do), T5 is noncasters that aren't particularly good, and T6 is noncasters that are hot garbage. All of this is basically regardless of what other features they do or do not have: unless you have extreme list limitations, like "a PrC specific spell list instead of copying the wizard list", or like "wizard list, but only the blasting spells" the way things like 3.5 warmage got...then 6th lvl spellcasting is still 6th lvl spellcasting. It's pretty freaking solid, and being a full 1.5 tiers down because of the other stuff you have being kind of lame is...questionable.
    That sounds like a pretty reasonable argument to me. As I said, I'm definitely up for discussion about Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue's specific tier.

    So here's the dirty list, and their current tentative "tier":

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Unchained): 3.4
    Rogue (Unchained): 4
    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Chained): 4.38
    Rogue (Chained): 4.88

    What's your current pick for how these should be rated?

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    What's your current pick for how these should be rated?
    In my view,
    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Unchained): 3.0
    Rogue (Unchained): 3.0
    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Chained): 4.0
    Rogue (Chained): 4.0

    And that's because both kinds of rogue can also get spells or spell-like abilities from rogue talents, certain feats, and witch hexes. Eldritch Scoundrel is definitely one of the better archetypes but not a full tier up.


    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    (provided that base rogue is T3, which...apparently it's T5? What???)
    I'd say that comes from people that assume the PF rogue has the same restrictions and limitations as the 3E rogue, the latter of which is tier 5. (edit: I'm misremembering and 3E's rogue is actually T4; I am baffled why people think PF's version is somehow a downgrade to that).
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2022-09-24 at 03:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I'd say that comes from people that assume the PF rogue has the same restrictions and limitations as the 3E rogue, the latter of which is tier 5.
    Both original tier list and the re-tiered consensus say T4 for 3.5 rogue. Part of that is 3.5 having some very friendly feats like darkstalker and craven, part of it is the 3.5 ACFs for half SA against SA-immune targets, and part of it is "3.5 spell items are kinda borked, and rogue can access them cuz UMD is borked". I imagine people saw that PF made everybody better at skills, and made spells/spell items less broken, and made magic items in general harder to break, and figured rogue had been kneecapped. Which...is very strange.

    My general thoughts on how martials shake out: to be T4, you need to do a thing well, or do a few things well enough. If you're only good-ish at one thing, or mediocre at a few things, you're T5. If you're total garbage, you're T6.

    Spoiler: my thoughts on martial tiers
    Show
    T4
    PF unchained rogue
    PF unchained barbarian
    PF gunslinger
    PF chained rogue
    PF chained barbarian
    PF unchained monk
    adept
    3.5 rogue
    3.5 barbarian

    T5
    3.5 fighter
    PF chained monk
    3.5 monk
    expert

    T6
    warrior
    aristocrat
    commoner


    To me, chained rogue is middling T4. It has good damage, especially since there isn't a half-dozen creature types shutting down SA, and fortification is weaker across the board. No dex to damage or craven sucks, but it's not crippling. Rogue is still a good damage machine, with some solid skill utility (possibly magic utility, via talents and UMD). Unchained is, broadly speaking, a half-tier step up. And I feel that phantom thief is maybe a half step up, at least in terms of the versatility/abuse it opens up in a few different directions. I don't think anything it does except for maybe the crafting is ever capable of reaching T2, and you'd need to invest a lot in order to craft items that can bust out some powerful gamebreaking spells. More likely, you'll take maybe one craft that gets you access to good wands and that'll be it. Feels like a solid T3. It changes you from "good damage and skills" to "absurd skills and some magic".

    Same deal with ES, it feels solidly T3 to me. Native 6th lvl casting, even if it doesn't have any bells and whistles, feels straightforward. Where PT is "absurd skills and some magic", this is "absurd magic and some skills and some SA".

    Based on this...I think chained sapper is high T5. The downsides of remaining chained, and the loss of your first two rogue talents haunting your entire progression, is enough downside, I think, to knock it down. I think unchained sapper is probably still T4, just lower on the totem pole.

    EDIT: Honestly, I currently have unchained rogue as high T4, but I wouldn't make any kind of serious argument if people wanted to say it was T3 instead. Doesn't get as many unlocks as PT does (or as soon), but skill unlocks are still powerful utility, and free dex to damage + debuffs on attacks is really solid.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2022-09-23 at 08:11 AM.


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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Compared to the much-maligned 3E rogue, let's start by pointing out the extra things an unchained Pathfinder Rogue gets out of the box,
    I agree with all this, and his rankings (Unchained 3, Chained 4). I would add that compared to 3.5 the chained rogue has a lower ceiling and higher floor. Most of the complaints of the rogue nerf were things I rarely saw in play anyway (like blinking flask rogues making full round touch sneak attacks. Which I don't think I ever saw in a game that wasn't some kind of convention competitive optimization challenge). Whereas the things that PF chained rogue gets are useful to every single optimization level.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    And that's because both kinds of rogue can also get spells or spell-like abilities from rogue talents, certain feats, and witch hexes. Eldritch Scoundrel is definitely one of the better archetypes but not a full tier up.
    I'm not sure if I'm on-board with that comparison. Eldritch Scoundrel gets the benefit of learning new spells as a Wizard (limited to 6ths). Taking Rogue talents, feats and so forth to get specific spells and spell-like abilities is good, but it's not nearly as flexible and usually much more limited in how often you can use them.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Same deal with ES, it feels solidly T3 to me. Native 6th lvl casting, even if it doesn't have any bells and whistles, feels straightforward. Where PT is "absurd skills and some magic", this is "absurd magic and some skills and some SA".
    So how does Chained ES Rogue and Unchained ES Rogue compare?



    Current votes, by the way. If I get more votes for Phantom Thief and Sapper I'll add them in too.

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Unchained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna - 3.0

    Rogue (Unchained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna - 3.0

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Chained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus - 4.0

    Rogue (Chained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna - 4.0

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Some nitpicks about Phantom Thief. It doesn’t have all skills as class skills. It has all skills except Fly as class skills. And it doesn’t let you make wands, staves, or rods. The benefit of Unchained Craft is limited to magic armor, magic weapons, magic rings, and wonderous items.

    It may be worth noting that a weaker form of magic item crafting is available to mundane of any class starting at level 5. It’s weaker in the sense that it can only ever apply to one craft skill and in the sense that it can’t be used to make magic rings. Nevertheless, Craft (Jewelry) is still a strong choice. It gets you amulets, bracelets, brooches, circlets, crowns, medallions, necklaces, and periapts. Though Craft (Clothing) might be stronger. It gets you body wraps, capes, cassocks, cloaks, corsets, dusters, gloves, hats, headbands, hoods, jackets, mantels, robes, shawls, shirts, slippers, stoles, vestments, and vests.

    Edit: My votes so far
    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Unchained): 3
    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Chained): 3
    Rogue (Unchained): 4
    Rogue (Chained): not sure
    Last edited by Maat Mons; 2022-09-23 at 08:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    I'm not sure if I'm on-board with that comparison. Eldritch Scoundrel gets the benefit of learning new spells as a Wizard (limited to 6ths). Taking Rogue talents, feats and so forth to get specific spells and spell-like abilities is good, but it's not nearly as flexible and usually much more limited in how often you can use them.
    Building on this by giving the actual examples.

    Rogue Talents That Give Magic
    Gloom Magic: 2/day "Darkness"
    Greater Gloom Magic: 1/day "Deeper Darkness"
    Innocent Facade: 1/day "Innocence"
    Major Magic: 2/day [wizard lvl 1 spell of your choice]
    Minor Magic: 3/day [wizard lvl 0 spell of your choice]
    Wild Magic: 3/day [druid lvl 0 spell of your choice]

    None of these can be taken more than once. Unless you are a phantom thief, in which case you can take Minor Magic and Major Magic as many times as you want (talent options allowing).

    This is the level of magic available to non-Eldritch Scoundrel rogues. A rogue can spend two rogue talents to get 1 cantrip known (which is 3/day instead of at-will), and 1 1st lvl spell known (for which they have two slots). That's it. Period.

    Rogue (Eldritch Scoundrel) learns and prepares spells the way a wizard does, and gains slot as a magus. Presuming a mere Int 12 and only a single measly class level, ES Rogue knows 30 cantrips and 4 1st lvl spells. Each day, ES rogue can prepare 3 of those cantrips, which can be cast at-will, and can prepare two slots worth of 1st lvl spells.

    This is already leaps and bounds ahead of what a non-ES rogue would get from Minor Magic + Major Magic. And we're only 1st lvl.

    It is not inaccurate to say "non-ES rogues get some magic". It's is transparently disingenuous to pretend they are even remotely comparable. Non-ES Rogues have a couple parlour tricks. Eldritch Scoundrels are lesser wizards.


    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    So how does Chained ES Rogue and Unchained ES Rogue compare?
    I think it barely matters. I'll put it this way.

    Chained Rogue:
    • Damage: 6/10
    • Skills: 9/10
    • Magic: 2/10 (more because of UMD than talents)


    Unchained Rogue:
    • Damage: 7/10
    • Skills: 10/10
    • Magic: 2/10


    Chained ES Rogue:
    • Damage: 4/10
    • Skills: 5/10
    • Magic: 7/10


    Unchained ES Rogue:
    • Damage: 5/10
    • Skills: 6/10
    • Magic: 7/10


    Unchained Rogue has slightly better damage and slightly better skills than chained rogue does. Eldritch Scoundrel, unchained or otherwise, is a rogue who has sacrificed damage and skills for magic. And because of the way the system works, magic just weighs more heavily than most things. Chained ES Rogue is a lower T3 than Unchained ES Rogue is, but that's splitting hairs. Unchained Rogue gets dex to damage, but both of them get disintegrate, so who cares? Unchained Rogue gets better access to things like Unchained Diplomacy. But both of them get access to Dominate Person, so who cares? Unchained Rogue is taking a -1 to perception per 60 ft of distance, but both of them get scrying, so who cares? We have access to the wizard list, there's basically nothing you're doing with skills (even unchained skills) that can't be done better with a spell somewhere. The sole thing I think Unchained ES has over Chained ES is "Unchained Heal", because healing is one of those things the wizard list doesn't do so well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Some nitpicks about Phantom Thief. It doesn’t have all skills as class skills. It has all skills except Fly as class skills. And it doesn’t let you make wands, staves, or rods. The benefit of Unchained Craft is limited to magic armor, magic weapons, magic rings, and wonderous items.

    It may be worth noting that a weaker form of magic item crafting is available to mundane of any class starting at level 5. It’s weaker in the sense that it can only ever apply to one craft skill and in the sense that it can’t be used to make magic rings. Nevertheless, Craft (Jewelry) is still a strong choice. It gets you amulets, bracelets, brooches, circlets, crowns, medallions, necklaces, and periapts. Though Craft (Clothing) might be stronger. It gets you body wraps, capes, cassocks, cloaks, corsets, dusters, gloves, hats, headbands, hoods, jackets, mantels, robes, shawls, shirts, slippers, stoles, vestments, and vests.
    These nitpicks are fair, although limited to making relevant wondrous items (and some other stuff) isn't all that limiting. Can't literally make wands, though, that's true. It's kinda fair, although I think it's weird that you can't use Unchained Craft/Alchemy to make potions.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2022-09-23 at 09:19 AM.


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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    I am convinced by argument that Chained ES is also 3. Probably near bottom of 3. And with a very limited role that wouldn't be better done by something else (like wizard or magus). But its probably impossible to have 6 level casting from open access to cleric or wizard list and not hit 3.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    And with a very limited role that wouldn't be better done by something else (like wizard or magus).
    I mean, a classes tier should be independent of whether others do their job better. We can't make "would this role be better filled by a wizard" one of our criteria, or basically everything would be tier 2 (where tiers are defined as "wizard" and "why aren't you playing wizard instead").


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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    I mean, a classes tier should be independent of whether others do their job better. We can't make "would this role be better filled by a wizard" one of our criteria, or basically everything would be tier 2 (where tiers are defined as "wizard" and "why aren't you playing wizard instead").
    Not really. Can a wizard fight better than a magus, like by chain employing planar binding to call up 50 outsiders? yes. But a wizard can't really do what a magus does in a game as well as a magus. It isn't actually very good at mixing spells and melee combat. Chained ES is basically just a bad wizard. It doesn't actually seem to me to have a meaningful role, other than "Be a wizard if the DM has banned T1s and 2s." Thats pretty unusual for T3s, who usually carve out something they are good at. Is a Sorcerer better than my Silksworn Occultist? Yeah. But I can point to real meaningful things the Occultist does better. ES would also be a T3 as a commoner with 6 level wizard casting, and its change in 0 meaningful ways. If it were an expert with 6 level wizard casting, it would arguably be better.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2022-09-23 at 11:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Chained ES Rogue is a lower T3 than Unchained ES Rogue is, but that's splitting hairs. Unchained Rogue gets dex to damage, but both of them get disintegrate, so who cares? Unchained Rogue gets better access to things like Unchained Diplomacy. But both of them get access to Dominate Person, so who cares?
    It strikes me that you're arguing from theory now and losing touch with actual gameplay. A 5th level Unchained Rogue gets dex to damage where 5th level chained ES does not, and that matters because neither of them gets disintegrate. A 10th level Unchained Rogue gets unchained diplomacy and chained ES does not, and that matters because neither of them has dominate person. This is not splitting hairs, it's taking account of the levels people commonly play at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gnaeus View Post
    Not really. Can a wizard fight better than a magus, like by chain employing planar binding to call up 50 outsiders? yes. But a wizard can't really do what a magus does in a game as well as a magus. It isn't actually very good at mixing spells and melee combat.
    That's another example. At most levels that people actually play at, neither wizard nor magus can use chain planar binding. So that the magus can fight much better than the wizard matters. Maybe not at level 20, but campaigns don't usually play at level 20 anyway.
    Last edited by Kurald Galain; 2022-09-23 at 11:15 AM.
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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    That's another example. At most levels that people actually play at, neither wizard nor magus can use chain planar binding. So that the magus can fight much better than the wizard matters. Maybe not at level 20, but campaigns don't usually play at level 20 anyway.
    A wizard could PB 100 outsiders at level 11, or lesser PB 100 outsiders at 9. I don't think that is outside the levels that see play. Outside the table expectations that see play perhaps. But that includes most of the tricks that people point to for T1 supremacy. He can also fight better by employing 28+ HD of animated monster skeletons backed up by summons at level 7. What he can't do is gish nearly as well.
    Last edited by Gnaeus; 2022-09-23 at 11:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    It strikes me that you're arguing from theory now and losing touch with actual gameplay. A 5th level Unchained Rogue gets dex to damage where 5th level chained ES does not, and that matters because neither of them gets disintegrate. A 10th level Unchained Rogue gets unchained diplomacy and chained ES does not, and that matters because neither of them has dominate person. This is not splitting hairs, it's taking account of the levels people commonly play at.
    The extreme examples are extreme, but the spellcasting doesn't just turn on and start being good at lvl 20, and you know it. The archetype moving the rogue in general away from focus as a melee damage dealer makes the melee damage it does get matter less. That's just a fact. All tiering is theoretical because we have to square with what the class is capable of. We can't say wizard is T4 because that one time my buddy played a wizard and just took all blasting spells. That's not the point of tiering things.

    ES Rogue 5, regardless of chain status, has 2nd lvl spells. It's only a couple slots a day, but it's their highest level spells, and they're gonna get used for combat stuff. They have the same attack bonus, the same rapier, the same single die of SA. They're making one attack a round dealing 2d6 damage avg 7 (2d6+4 avg 11 in the case of the unchained). It's a ~57% damage boost at absolute best, and that's after we got rid of half the SA to give it a chance to matter, and it's sticking to low levels when the non-dex damage is at its lowest. And that's assuming no combat spells instead of attacks. Cast something like Flaming Sphere twice a day (which they can do, assuming Int 14 on an Int-based caster), and assuming 8 fights a day that are 5 rounds each (that feels generous), we've got 32 rounds of attacks and 8 rounds of attack+fire. 104d6 (avg 364) vs 104d6+160 (avg 524). Two combat spells and we're at the "damage +dex" being knocked down to ~44% extra damage instead. If the day is shorter (say, 6 fights of 4 rounds each, still a lil generous IME), it's 72d6 (avg 252) vs 72d6+96 (avg 348), and now it's ~38%. The unchained one can use Diplomacy in 5 rounds instead of 10? That's something? I mean, it's not combat viable, so it's still gonna happen in narrative time, where the difference between 5 rounds and 1 minute is negligible. Oh and you're a lvl 5 non-phantom thief, so that's your only unchained skill. You might have a second one if you took Signature Skill.

    Fast forward to ES Rogue 7, when 3rd lvl spells come online. Now it's one attack dealing 3d6+1 or 3d6+6 per round (I think a +1 weapon and a Dex +2 item is quite affordable at this level). If we do no blasting, we're looking at a long 40-round day of 120d6+40 (460) vs 120d6+240 (660) for a 43% advantage. If we have a less long 24-round day, and we use a fireball (only one, Int 16 might be reaching, and let's say 4 targets each), we're looking at 97d6+23 (362.5) vs 97d6+138 (477.5), for a 32% advantage. If we've got the good Int, make that 122d6+22 (449) vs 122d6+132 (559), for a 24% advantage. Still no combat-viable diplomacy.

    Fast forward to ES Rogue 10, when 4th lvl spells come online. Two attacks dealing 3d6+1 or 3d6+6 per round. 40-round day with no blasting is 240d6+80 (920) vs 240d6+480 (1320), 43%. 24-round with a blasting spell (say...Fireballing 4 people twice), and now it's 212d6+44 (786) vs 212d6+264 (1006), 28%. They've both got Charm Monster now, and the unchained one has combat-viable diplomacy! Sort of viable? It's at -10 to the check, but that's probably doable, Diplomacy isn't hard to break. You'll probably get better milage out of the duration boost to your normal diplomacy though, especially since the combat diplomacy is only shifting two steps (so you can make an enemy indifferent, but not friendly). It's still definitely an upside, though. You also have a second skill unlock from class. You could now have as many as 5 if that's what you aimed for! Of course most of them haven't gotten to the good stuff yet.

    Blasting is generally awful, but for either build using a couple blasting spells each day is still a good idea.




    And the part of all this that's the most "in theory instead of in practice" is how long the days are, which is currently in favor of the unchained. My experience has tended more towards a few short combats a day, because most DMs and players don't have the patience to do the song-and-dance for the half-dozen gimme encounters that the books assume you'll be doing...except skipping all those rebalances things in favor of casting, because they're actually supposed to be an endurance test chewing through HP and healing and low level blasts. Why bother doing tests of endurance against easy enemies, that's boring! Let's have one big fight today that uses all our resources. Oops looks like casting matters more than everything else combined.

    You don't have to like it, but that's the reality for far more tables than it's not. Time is a precious resource and neither DMs nor players are going to feel a burning need to spend the vast majority of their gaming time fighting encounters whose mechanics are boring, outcomes are inevitable, and whose stakes are rock-bottom. Time is precious, and if we're gonna spend it on combat instead of roleplay, we need to go big. And in that kind of environment, the one I've seen at table after table, physical or digital, the fact that one of these middling casters has dex to damage on their melee attacks is, at absolute best, kinda neat. It doesn't change the fact that a basic bitch fighter build will be doing much better than you on daily damage (and will be, himself, doing much worse than a real rogue). Surprise surprise: when you gave up half your SA damage, you stopped mainly being a weapon user. You are now a middling gish with some secondhand spellcasting and a few good skills. Dex to damage doesn't substantially change what you do or how good you are at it. It makes you a bit better at the thing you do when you wanna save your spell slots for something more important. Congrats on dealing 3d6+6 damage to that bandit instead of just 3d6+1! I mean he's dead either way, but still! Congrats on dealing 3d6+6 damage per attack to that dragon instead of just 3d6+1! I mean, it has 200 hit points, and you've got two buddies who focus on damage, so you needed to deal 70. It only took you 5 rounds instead of 6, that's...something. Of course, would've taken 4 if you'd used a spell...maybe even 3.

    Unchained skills are helpful but they improve slowly and you don't get that many of them: since Eldritch Scoundrels definitionally can't be Phantom Thieves too, they don't get skill unlocks 50% faster than normal, nor do they get anywhere near as many. Unchained Diplomacy can be used at lvl 10 to try and bump somebody's attitude two steps if you can hit the DC with a -10 penalty, but it really becomes combat viable at lvl 15, when your check is better and the penalty is completely gone. Except at lvl 15, both ES have access to Dominate Monster, and have had such access for a couple levels now. So actually yes, it's very comparable.


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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    I probably should have made it that people can give votes other than straight 3, 4, or 5, in case people thought otherwise. When someone says, say, "mid tier 3" or "low tier 3" it's difficult to parse that into a concrete number, and I'd like to be able to. I also think it would be helpful when there will be a lot of entries in each tier.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    I vote that they both be put in Tier 4, with Core Rogue near the bottom and Unchained Rogue near the top. The Core Rogue isn't any worse than its 3.5 incarnation, which is generally agreed upon as Tier 4. The Unchained Rogue, while it's a strict upgrade, doesn't add enough new stuff to put it up to Tier 3.

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Current votes and averages. If you want to give a more specific number than what I've recorded, feel free to let me know so I can update it:

    Rogue (Unchained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna - 3.0
    Maat Mons, Endless Rain – 4.0

    Average – 3.4

    Rogue (Chained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna, Endless Rain - 4.0

    Average – 4.0

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Unchained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna, Maat Mons - 3.0

    Average – 3.0

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Chained)
    Maat Mons, Gnaeus – 3.0
    Kurald Galain – 4.0

    Average – 3.3

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    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    I probably should have made it that people can give votes other than straight 3, 4, or 5, in case people thought otherwise. When someone says, say, "mid tier 3" or "low tier 3" it's difficult to parse that into a concrete number, and I'd like to be able to. I also think it would be helpful when there will be a lot of entries in each tier.
    Part of it is just how few people care to participate in these threads. If we had a few dozen people weighing in, the balance between people thinking 3 and people thinking 4 would probably end up with each one about where they're supposed to be. But if it were just me, I'd wanna be as accurate as possible to my opinion on things - just saying "normal is T4 regardless of Chain, ES is T3 regardless of chain" isn't acknowledging the slight damage change, the debuffs on SA, or the utility of skill unlocks. If it were just me, I'd try to give a decimal. And while it's not just me, it's close enough to just me that I'll do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by pabelfly View Post
    Current votes and averages. If you want to give a more specific number than what I've recorded, feel free to let me know so I can update it:

    Rogue (Unchained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna - 3.0
    Maat Mons, Endless Rain – 4.0

    Average – 3.4

    Rogue (Chained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna, Endless Rain - 4.0

    Average – 4.0

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Unchained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna, Maat Mons - 3.0

    Average – 3.0

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Chained)
    Maat Mons, Gnaeus – 3.0
    Kurald Galain – 4.0

    Average – 3.3
    Chained Rogue: 4.3
    Unchained Rogue: 3.7
    Chained Rogue (ES): 3.3
    Unchained Rogue (ES): 3.0

    Explanation: unchained Rogue goes harder on skills and meleeing than Chained Rogue does, so Eldritch Scoundrel kneecapping both means it's not boosting Unchained as much as it does Chained. End result: in my eyes, Chained is low T4, Unchained is high T4, Chained ES is low T3, and Unchained ES is mid T3.

    EDIT: For the archetypes I suggested myself...

    Chained Rogue (PT): 3.3
    Unchained Rogue (PT): 3.0

    Explanation: Phantom Thief grants the same number of skill unlocks to both chained and unchained, but there are two key differences. First, chained had no skill unlocks to begin with, so going from none to some is bigger than going from some to some more. Secondly, while the archetype doesn't technically take away Debilitating Injury, you can't use DI if you can't make sneak attacks, so Phantom Thief is more costly to the unchained rogue. In the early game, Phantom Thief will have better magic access than normal rogues (although still not as good as ES rogues), which should cover them until 7th/10th when they start getting the really good skill unlocks. With lvl 14 bringing some truly abusable unlocks (at-will* suggestion, AoE "cowering/panicked for several rounds" debuff, crafting your own magic items, absurd nonmagical healing if you can get around the action economy issue), it stays a strong support option in the late-game.

    Chained Rogue (Sapper): 4.7
    Unchained Rogue (Sapper): 4.0

    Explanation: The loss of your first two rogue talents to nonsense will haunt you your whole career, and you will spend the entire campaign playing catch up. The piddling abilities this archetype grants do not make up for what they cost you. Eldritch Scoundrel stole 5 of your rogue talents across the whole 20-level spread, but gave you 6th lvl casting. That's a pretty good deal, even if it cost other things too. Sapper rogue stole 2 of your talents and literally gave you pocket change. It's absolutely terrible. Unchained Rogue is already on the verge of being T3 instead of T4, so being slightly worse isn't gonna give it a tier change. But chained rogue was on the edge of being T5 instead of T4, and I think Sapper takes it over that edge.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2022-09-23 at 08:53 PM.


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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    TotallyNotEvil's Avatar

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    Jan 2015

    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Going to say both versions are 3.0 if Eldritch Scoundrel, unarchetyped Unchained is 3.5, baseline is 4.0.

    If no-decimal isn't allowed, I will say Unchained is T4.

    IMO, baseline Chained Rogue is definitely not T5.
    Last edited by TotallyNotEvil; 2022-09-23 at 09:15 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Apr 2019

    Default Re: Tiering the Pathfinder Classes - Rogue (Core) and Rogue (Unchained)

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    EDIT: For the archetypes I suggested myself...

    Chained Rogue (PT): 3.3
    Unchained Rogue (PT): 3.0

    Explanation: Phantom Thief grants the same number of skill unlocks to both chained and unchained, but there are two key differences. First, chained had no skill unlocks to begin with, so going from none to some is bigger than going from some to some more. Secondly, while the archetype doesn't technically take away Debilitating Injury, you can't use DI if you can't make sneak attacks, so Phantom Thief is more costly to the unchained rogue. In the early game, Phantom Thief will have better magic access than normal rogues (although still not as good as ES rogues), which should cover them until 7th/10th when they start getting the really good skill unlocks. With lvl 14 bringing some truly abusable unlocks (at-will* suggestion, AoE "cowering/panicked for several rounds" debuff, crafting your own magic items, absurd nonmagical healing if you can get around the action economy issue), it stays a strong support option in the late-game.

    Chained Rogue (Sapper): 4.7
    Unchained Rogue (Sapper): 4.0

    Explanation: The loss of your first two rogue talents to nonsense will haunt you your whole career, and you will spend the entire campaign playing catch up. The piddling abilities this archetype grants do not make up for what they cost you. Eldritch Scoundrel stole 5 of your rogue talents across the whole 20-level spread, but gave you 6th lvl casting. That's a pretty good deal, even if it cost other things too. Sapper rogue stole 2 of your talents and literally gave you pocket change. It's absolutely terrible. Unchained Rogue is already on the verge of being T3 instead of T4, so being slightly worse isn't gonna give it a tier change. But chained rogue was on the edge of being T5 instead of T4, and I think Sapper takes it over that edge.
    Anyone else want to weigh in on these two archetypes? I'd like a few votes on specific archetypes before I specifically start tiering them.



    Updates on votes:

    Rogue (Unchained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus – 3.0
    Avatar Vecna – 3.7
    Maat Mons, Endless Rain – 4.0

    Average – 3.54

    Rogue (Chained)
    Avatar Vecna – 3.7
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Endless Rain, Totally Not Evil - 4.0

    Average – 3.9

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Unchained)
    Kurald Galain, Gnaeus, Avatar Vecna, Maat Mons, Totally Not Evil - 3.0

    Average – 3.0

    Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue (Chained)
    Maat Mons, Gnaeus, Totally Not Evil – 3.0
    Avatar Vecna – 3.3
    Kurald Galain – 4.0

    Average – 3.26

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