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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    In another thread I read Swift Quiver takes a turn to activate the Bonus Action attacks RAW. I may just be in my own world but what in the wording makes that so? If anything it says "on each of your turns".

    Also, on rounds after you cast it, can you make your two Bonus Action attacks and say cast Disintegrate with your Action?

    Swift Quiver
    5th-level transmutation

    Casting Time: 1 bonus action
    Range: Touch
    Components: V, S, M (a quiver containing at least one piece of ammunition)
    Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
    You transmute your quiver so it produces an endless supply of nonmagical ammunition, which seems to leap into your hand when you reach for it.
    On each of your turns until the spell ends, you can use a bonus action to make two attacks with a weapon that uses ammunition from the quiver. Each time you make such a ranged attack, your quiver magically replaces the piece of ammunition you used with a similar piece of nonmagical ammunition. Any pieces of ammunition created by this spell disintegrate when the spell ends. If the quiver leaves your possession, the spell ends.

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkVIIIMarc View Post
    In another thread I read Swift Quiver takes a turn to activate the Bonus Action attacks RAW. I may just be in my own world but what in the wording makes that so?
    You've already used your bonus action on the turn you cast the spell to cast the spell. You have no bonus action left to make attacks with.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurrashane View Post
    You've already used your bonus action on the turn you cast the spell to cast the spell. You have no bonus action left to make attacks with.
    Drat. I forgot it was a bonus action itself. Thanks for stating the obvious kindly.

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    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkVIIIMarc View Post
    Also, on rounds after you cast it, can you make your two Bonus Action attacks and say cast Disintegrate with your Action?
    Activating the spell's effect as a bonus action is not casting a spell again, so you can cast a leveled spell with your action. (Or make your Attacks, etc.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    Swift Quiver really should let you make the two attacks when you cast it, too.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Swift Quiver really should let you make the two attacks when you cast it, too.
    Yeah this, I haven't played a high level Ranger but I have heard some some that have it is okish with on turn use but still kinda meh, and very bad otherwise.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Swift Quiver really should let you make the two attacks when you cast it, too.
    True. The Stars Druid allows you to activate your form and use it in the same bonus action.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Person_Man's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    This is one of the reasons why Bonus Action management is my least favorite part of 5E. I always feel like its wasted, or too crowded, or too confusing.

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    Psyren's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    I must admit, I'm curious what 5e would be like if you stapled on PF2/PFU's 3-action economy instead.

    Or alternatively - if we had the ability to trade our action (or maybe action + inspiration?) in for a second bonus action (but not the reverse.)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    I don't think it would break anything to allow the two attacks as a part of casting the spell. If somebody stuck with Ranger until level 17 to finally get that spell, I'd at least reward them with that much.

    Now I probably wouldn't give that nod to a Bard that took it...

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    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    One of the issues with Ranger and Paladin spells is that, as half casters with dedicated spells, Bards actually become better at casting their spells than they are. This isn't an issue with the 1/3 casters, who have borrowed spell lists from full casters anyway. For this reason, half casters who aren't just cribbing a full caster's list need to have class features that interact with their class spell list in some way.

    I think Rangers, for example, should have some means of tying Favored Enemy and/or Favored Terrain to their spells, possibly by obviating the need for Concentration. Perhaps they do not require Concentration to maintain Ranger spells when they are in their Favored Terrains, and have clauses in certain Ranger spells themselves which let them be used without Concentration if they target a Favored Enemy. You'd need it, I think, to be spell-by-spell for the last one so the specific interaction with Favored Enemies can be spelled out. Swift quiver might not require Concentration unless and until you use one of its granted attacks on a creature that is not a Favored Enemy. Engangling smite, on the other hand, might allow you to cast it as part of the action in which you land the blow (rather than pre-casting it and using it on a later blow), with no concentration, if you're using it on a Favored Enemy you just hit.

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    Person_Man's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I must admit, I'm curious what 5e would be like if you stapled on PF2/PFU's 3-action economy instead.

    Or alternatively - if we had the ability to trade our action (or maybe action + inspiration?) in for a second bonus action (but not the reverse.)
    My ideal would be to eliminate Bonus Actions entirely, and limit the action economy to 1 Action, 1 Reaction, movement, and Concentration (which could encompass both spells and Tome of Battle combat stances which you could switch as a Reaction). Then every feature and spell should be written to be big/useful enough to fit into one of those things. (Or small and insignificant enough that no one cares - like Light or Mage Armor). I hate fiddly add-ons. Your Actions in combat should be interesting choices, not a bonus stacking math problem.

    For example, TWF is fine to include as part of an attack Action. It doesn’t need a Bonus Action to eat because it deals the exact same damage as a two handed weapon unless you have Fighting Style. Yes, it helps Rogues trigger Sneak Attack more often. But so what? Sneak Attack damage just keeps Rogues on the same level as other classes when it comes to at-will damage.

    /rant

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    My ideal would be to eliminate Bonus Actions entirely, and limit the action economy to 1 Action, 1 Reaction, movement, and Concentration (which could encompass both spells and Tome of Battle combat stances which you could switch as a Reaction). Then every feature and spell should be written to be big/useful enough to fit into one of those things. (Or small and insignificant enough that no one cares - like Light or Mage Armor). I hate fiddly add-ons. Your Actions in combat should be interesting choices, not a bonus stacking math problem.

    For example, TWF is fine to include as part of an attack Action. It doesn’t need a Bonus Action to eat because it deals the exact same damage as a two handed weapon unless you have Fighting Style. Yes, it helps Rogues trigger Sneak Attack more often. But so what? Sneak Attack damage just keeps Rogues on the same level as other classes when it comes to at-will damage.

    /rant
    The problem I see though is that "no one cares" is subjective. Sure, it's not often that you'll need to recast Light or Mage Armor (or both!) during a fight - but it can come up and be important, such as getting dispelled or your lantern doused in a dark room. And making some spells "free" is just going to lead to a different kind of optimization, e.g. cramming 10 Lights into my turn to bait all the enemy counterspells before I cast the thing I actually care about. And now you need to add yet more rules to prevent that from happening, because we've just created a bag-of-rats scenario inside the spellcasting system.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Person_Man's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    The problem I see though is that "no one cares" is subjective. Sure, it's not often that you'll need to recast Light or Mage Armor (or both!) during a fight - but it can come up and be important, such as getting dispelled or your lantern doused in a dark room. And making some spells "free" is just going to lead to a different kind of optimization, e.g. cramming 10 Lights into my turn to bait all the enemy counterspells before I cast the thing I actually care about. And now you need to add yet more rules to prevent that from happening, because we've just created a bag-of-rats scenario inside the spellcasting system.
    Fair point. Perhaps they should be added as ribbon class features then? Or you could impose a small costly material spell component? Or you could just require Concentration but make the effect worthwhile? (For example, Light is continuous while you maintain Concentration, and you can use ab Action to Blind (Save negates) 1+ level enemies? Something that allows the magical fluff people will want to keep in the game, without it being abused?

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    Kane0's Avatar

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    Default Re: Swift Quiver Bonus Action only and takes a turn to activate RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Swift Quiver really should let you make the two attacks when you cast it, too.
    Yeah, but in my case I can't help myself and went further.

    Spoiler: It's totally different
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    Swift Quiver
    5th-Level Transmutation
    Casting time: 1 Bonus Action
    Range: Touch
    Components: V, S, M (a weapon or quiver containing at least one piece of ammunition)
    Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

    Until the spell ends your weapon attacks deal an extra 1d6 Force damage on a hit and once per turn you can duplicate one weapon attack you make before you roll the attack. This attack is treated as two identical attacks against the same target.
    Roll for it
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