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2022-09-27, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Need to be careful how this works. Not using a resource is good because it means never having to worry about use it now and not have it when I really need it later or not use it now for fear of needing it later but then never using it. The issue is how long it takes to setup a maneuver. Make the requirement too specific it won't be used a lot, if at all, meaning lack of fun because you don't get to use your toy. Make the requirement too long to set up the combat may be over by the time it's ready to use or the reason for doing the maneuver no longer applies because the target is dead or in another location or some other reason. Shove or trip is nice, but players are not wrong for wanting more Wow Cool maneuvers. The more Wow Cool the rarer it gets used to prevent it from being the only thing used. The devil as always is in the details. I'm not asking you give them , just something I think important to be concerned.
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2022-09-27, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
As I said, it would require designing a whole system, which to begin with would need to have its scope decided beforehand, is it a subclass feature? a class' core mechanic or is it just how combat works for everyone? (i'd go for the latter)
However, the setups I proposed, I think getting 2 consecutive hits on the same foe was the hardest one to meet. Rolling initiative without being surprised was also one :P
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2022-09-27, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
I don't have problems with 100% guaranteed unique abilities. I think that they should mostly be big headline features that define the class/subclass/archetype. Not be one among many such things you have, if you want. That, or baseline capabilities that everyone has (like carrying 14x your str score or jumping at least your str score with a running start).
And I'm fine with some things only being available via spells. But there should be similar-scale things that can only be done by some non spell means. Just to have symmetry.
And I agree with the other two paragraphs wholeheartedly.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2022-09-27, 06:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
I am skeptical
You are of course free not to do something for any reasons, but I think something like this would have an impact. Many powers in 4E added things like Push/Prone effects, different status conditions, enabled movement/attacks/saving throws, etc. Something like Come And Get It would be awesome, as well as the various Stances that fighters had access to.
It's not going to overhaul the game, and that's probably what you are saying. But there's a lot to crib from 4E powers. If there is a way to give martials that level of impact again, while allowing casters to still be the alpha and omega with powers for every situation, that would be ideal, as it would satisfy the people that want to play heroes and the people that need to play "gods" .
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2022-09-27, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Since I wrote that, I've reconsidered a bit. I think I'm going to try my hand at it for the 4e fighter with a few provisos like turning abilities that are literally a lower level ability with bigger numbers into a scaling feature.
As for the second, I've got a whole writeup where I did just that for a bunch of effects. Including teleportation, flight, restoration, and resurrection.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2022-09-27, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
To be fair warriors can do this now in 5E if they choose, but they have to pay a feat for it. The problem is the resource required competes with wanting to improve combat prowess by ASI or another feat that does so. Players playing a warrior tend to want that so will never choose the ritual option. 5E cannot be fully to blame if a player chooses not to use that option. It is fair to request in D&Done it doesn't cost a feat it can just be done because a player wants to, or if it does cost a resource slot of some kind to gain the ability it only competes with other non-direct combat resource allocations allowing for players who really don't mind not having and/or not wanting their warrior to do ritual magic.
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2022-09-27, 10:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Thanks for the replies, I question the inclusion of some abilities and classes, but there are a lot more non-spell utility abilities than I expected.
That said, I can't see anything on the list provided realistically competing the power of spells in the non combat 2/3 of the game.
Most of the abilities are variants on being better at ability checks. Dubiously useful, since anyone can make an ability check and often the challenge can't be solved directly by making an ability check or can't be failed by trying repeatedly until you succeed.
The genuinely unique powers are useful, but generally quite limited in scope and are things the player has to comit to with build resources.
Meanwhile spellcasters can teleport across the world, see into the future and raise the dead. multiple times per day.
Or wait a day and swap all that out for the ability to fly, breathe water and travel to other planes of existence.
I just don't see the rogues ability to make ability checks really well or the monks ability to mimic the tongues spell as on the same playing field.I am rel.
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2022-09-27, 11:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
There are a few interesting issues here (from a game design perspective).
#1: If we are talking about the Champion/Battlemaster dichotomy, it hinges on the question, when is a passive weight-for-weight equal to 'another option'. Clearly 'another option' is pretty good when you have one, but once you have ten spells... is the eleventh that useful? There is definitely a diminishing returns element for 'active abilities' whereas +1 damage will always be 'better' whether it is +0 => +1 or +10 =>+11. Generally the best strategy is to obtain a fixed number of options and then stack passives as much as possible (from a optmizing POV).
#2: What is the limit of magic? One thing, I have always tried to do in my RPGs is ensure that magic can do things non-magic can't, but magic isn't just a source of 'unlimited power'. The issue comes from... could a person do it? Like... if I have a Strength 20 Barbarian Hulk-style character can the wizard just levitate the heaviest object the Hulk can? Or more? At which point... what is the point of the Hulk? Why would anything but wizards exist in that setting? Being a hulk would be the equivalent of being a human table... who is going to rent a human table when you can just buy a table. Also, how is the wizard generating that much energy? Wouldn't that break the whole world? I have always favoured magic like... glue two pieces of wood together by 'stitching them back'. Levitating 5 pounds of material from far away. You can't actually do this normally but it isn't breaking any energy limits. The wizarding gives you a new 'tool', but it isn't... I cause an earthquake and knock the castle down.
To this end, I think having a 'simple caster' is a good idea. The D&D design choice that 'martial = easy', 'caster = hard' is pretty awful from a creativity point of view. Lots of players like to play 1-dimensional "I use lightning" casters.
Likewise 'interesting martial' would be great. Especially if 'interesting' didn't just mean martial with spells (which it kind of does in 5e).
To do this, you'd probably need to have the base fighter/ranger/paladin have access to a list of "maneuvers/conditioning" where some are active 'do stuff' and others are 'passive bonuses' designed for the Champion players out there (but not necessarily 'just' champion, perhaps horse-riding lady or archer guy).
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2022-09-27, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
But 5e is, in fact, doubling down on having pretty much everything superhuman also be spells or magic. There are a few exceptions (Monk, some Barbarian things), but the sheer majority of "special things" that are even remotely supernatural are spells and you can't do that without spells. If you look back on 3e and 4e, they had a much wider range of things that were explicitly superhuman, but also were totally non-magical (extraordinary effects that were breaking the laws of physics over their knee, and required zero magic). 4e outright gave Rogues Shadowstep, IIRC, and it wasn't even magic.
Anyway, the point of playing a caster is playing a character who casts spells. Those spells might have unique effects that are unavailable to other classes. It would be nice, however, if other classes could do something spells can't do at all. Also would be nice if not everything that is undeniably superhuman stopped getting lumped into being magic or spells.Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
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2022-09-28, 12:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Wild idea, introduce a universal stamina mechanic. You get some but not all back on a short rest (like HP and hit dice), basically anything beyond basic movement and attacks will take some measure of stamina and some things may use additional resources as well such as spell slots/points, concentration, etc.
One more thing to track, but also one extra gamedev tool to balance with between 'at-will', short rest and long rest resources.
Edit: if you are worried about complexity you could have the champion and similar 'simple' classes/subclasses just give you a bunch of extra stamina but nothing special to use it on, or reduce the stamina cost if certain actions, so you dont have to worry about it (caveat, beware multiclassing shenanigans)Last edited by Kane0; 2022-09-28 at 12:59 AM.
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2022-09-28, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
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2022-09-28, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Knock is a great example of where non-casters excel at the game.
The knock spell can open any 1 lock. A rogue with proficiency/expertise in thieves tools can open any and every lock.
Most spells that are thing happens are like this, 1 cast, 1 thing. So they don't do a good job replacing characters with good passive abilities. It really only becomes a late game thing when spells have a mix of two things, low level spells becoming ineffective in combat and spell slots become plentiful enough to last all day.
Martials already have abilities to make ability checks more reliable,advantage, expertise, additional proficiencies, etc. (Well martials and bards, but we can talk about that angle later). Leaning in that direction, shifting their existing abilities to earlier levels an new abilities in Tier 3+, and non-combat looks pretty workable.
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In combat, there are two angles, raw power and interesting gameplay. Martials arguably struggle more with that second one, since their in combat role is they do damage. More capacity to inflict harmful conditions and such would be my primary concern. As for raw power, I have heard martials are fine on that front from the optimization crowd, with a mild need for a few specific powerful feats and rough edges with Tier 3+ again. Fighter getting a 1 day ability on par with something like meteor swarm would solve this problem very quickly.My sig is something witty.
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2022-09-28, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Nothing wrong with that. I seem to be an exception in thinking everyone should adapt to the situation at hand and pick a right tool for the job (and have the tools in the first place) instead of being one-trick pony trying to do the same thing no matter the circumstances. Archer caught in melee *should* switch to a melee weapon of their own or disengage instead of shooting like nothing happened, a melee specialist facing a strafing dragon *should* switch to a ranged weapon instead of jumping 50' up to hit it with a sword (as certain people suggested as a thing they should be doing) and spellcasters *should* rethink what they are doing when caught in melee instead of just throwing another Fireball (or whatever). And it should work both ways: just like keeping distance is *the* tactic to use against melee-only enemies, closing in should be the preferred way to deal with ranged attackers and spellcasters.
But seeing the recent changes to monsters, including bloating spellcasters' HP and adding powerful at-will attacks usable at range or in melee instead of spellcasting, it's obvious WotC does not want the people playing the game to have to actually think what they are doing.
I don't like the meta "spellcaster outside of melee is a god, spellcaster inside the melee is dead". I'd much prefer having a game balanced around the fact that spellcasters can't avoid the possibility of their spell being countered (either by counterspell or by attacks), even if that means that we need to add a rule like "spell countered don't consume their spellslot" (though I'm not sure it's needed).
But I'm probably biased by the fact that I love magic while fundamentally hating the concept of glass canon.It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2022-09-28, 03:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Not martials. Rogues and to some small extent, Rangers (only if your game includes wilderness survival and orientation). Fighters, Barbarians, Monks and even Paladins are not explicitly better than any spellcaster at ability checks. They do not get Expertise at all, they do not get advantage handed to them easily, they do not get additional proficiencies, they do not get anything at all that would make them better at skills. They just tend to focus on stats that synergize with certain checks better - but then again, casters are great at either social skills, WIS skills, or knowledges, so it isn't martial-facing anyway.
And even Rogues don't get that great at skills before level 10.Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2022-09-28, 03:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
In their defense martials do get some benefits to ability checks. For instance, the Cavalier gets a bonus proficiency at level 3, that or another language. Oh, and the Champion can jump an additional 5 feet with a running long jump (if their Strength score is maxed)
I think all Fighters should get Remarkable Athlete at level 9. That, and it scales to add full proficiency bonus, instead of half, at level 17Last edited by Ulsan Krow; 2022-09-28 at 03:59 AM.
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2022-09-28, 04:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Yeah, that was exactly my idea, presented in another topic.
Stamina and mental fatigue as additional resources.
Martial classes could use the already existing exhaustion rules for exceptional stunts, eventually healing more levels with long rest
Spellcasters could use a different mental fatigue table, which would be triggered by spells which have dramatic effect in game world (example: teleport, revivify, detect thoughts, suggestion...) or are too good in combat (wall of force). So that these effects would still exist, but spellcasters couldn't produce them everyday.
This could ever introduce a way to reduce armor efficiency for spellcasters, casting in armor could eventually give exhaustion or fatigue (not every time, of course, we don't want a punishment for those casting in armor, just a choice)
I'm convinced after so much discussing that the main problem is having the same resource implemented for two variables: availability of spells at a certain level and spell cost.
The rule i suggested is just a way to decorrelate the two variables, but any other way would work.Last edited by Selion; 2022-09-28 at 04:28 AM.
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2022-09-28, 04:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Sure, but subclass skill proficiencies aren't unique to martials (and nor are they universal to all martial subclasses) - a bunch of cleric domains (arcana, knowledge, nature, order, peace) get them after all, and Eloquence Bards get Silver Tongue at 3rd(!) level.
Granted, likewise, not every caster gets them - druid's sole subclass proficiency of note is Sylvan language from Shepherd, and that's just a language, not even a skill.
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2022-09-28, 04:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Yeah, and the way to fix that is to take that big campaign affecting stuff out of the spell lists and put it into rituals and artifacts that anyone can use. Want to visit another plane of existence? You don't need a spell you need a keystone for that plane and once you have it anyone can use it.
Spell lists can be the immediate effects (because that's what tends to go in other class features, immediate effects with immediate outcomes), and all the far reaching stuff comes out of spells and into other systems that are equally accessible to all.
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2022-09-28, 05:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
ja it was tongue in cheek. My opinion for OOC utility -
Barbarians should do more strong people things and more tough people things. High hitpoints should in themselves be treated as a utility. Trap going off and you have no expert or time to disable it? Whip out your Barbarian and tank that. Need to leap through flames to hold a liquefyingly hot door shut? Barbarian's got you. Hell if the Champion subclass ceased to exist, methinks that Survivor belongs snugly on the base chassis of the Barbarian especially considering how desolate their class features are past level 6 already.
Fighter - same thing as above, if Champion ceased to exist some well scaling implementation of Remarkable Athlete could be passed over. Furthermore, since the Fighter chassis is so barebones and that's by design (people don't like their Fighters, the most 'blank slate' class in the game alongside Wizard) to be overly rigid in conception, instead pile on even more utility unto the subclasses, a single level 7 almost ribbon isn't enough. Samurai can be a nice face and resilient against Wisdom ('spiritual') checks at level 7, give them some more similarly themed utility later on. Cavalier should go well beyond the limits of what mounts can currently afford. Battlemaster, give some more utility based maneuver options and scale those maneuvers better into tier 3-4 anyway.
Paladin's fine.
Monk should be able to do more things with Ki, and with less Ki. And like spellcasters there's already a built in balancing mechanism in that Ki is a competing resource for combat use
Rogue is obvious what it should do, and already does. Honestly what I want for rogue are 'debilitations' like Pathfinder rogue features: at will effects that can be applied and effectuated upon successful sneak attacks. At will as in you can trade some sneak attack die to make those effects come to be. E.g. a bunch of options like dizzying, crippling strike etc etc but also some class specific ones like a Thief archetypal sneak attack that simultaneously attempts to steal off of the target, or a Swashbuckler's sneak attack that distracts with flair, or an envenoming Assassin strike and so on so forth
Ranger can be skill monkeyed further in its domain (not Favored Enemy and Terrain level specific; I mean the domain of exploration). They should be the best at, well, ranging.
TL;DR: Barbarian physical utility. Fighter athletic/more skilled physical utility + more subclass specific utility. Paladin strong, Monk more and more efficient Ki tricks, Rogue needs more combat utility/agency, Ranger master of exploration and more skill proficiency/specialisation
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2022-09-28, 06:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
I've thought about it quite a bit.
As a preface I've accepted "martials" being simpler for newer players. If you want a person with a complex range of special attacks, there are a lot of options from Battlemaster to Swarm Ranger to Bladesinger. I have a player who just loves stapling these kinds of things to his fighter, for example.
On the point of Tome of Battle/Path of War, I'm unsure if I would want a 1:1 adaptation. In 3.5, such attacks would usually have their own action. This is contrary to how special attacks tend to work in 5e, which are attached to an attack which can be part of an attack action. Some attacks are simply something you can do already, since Full Attacking isn't competing with movement in this edition.
This also extends to attacks from 4e as well. Some 4e attacks are literally cantrips right now, or others can be made by combining a Battlemaster Maneuver or the like with a normal attack. Heck, one of Fighter's best attacks in heroic is Rain of Blows. You just hit a guy again (and again), something all fighters can already do.
So I would like to see is more rider style special attacks. There are a few options that I could see taking their own action, however. A bonus action could let you hit someone twice or an Action could let you attack everyone in a line, but I think in general the fluidity afforded by working with the attack action is better. Making guys who mostly weapon fight over spellcasting having varying levels of battlemaster in them would be a nice start. I don't want the maneuver dice of the playtest. I think it should be an additive resource management over costing damage.Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
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2022-09-28, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
You could check out Spheres of Might, a 3rd party ruleset. It's available for both Pathfinder and 5e, adjusted to fit within the system, and does some interesting things. Martials get to do interesting things, and martial focus is a resource that can be recovered mid-fight and is spent on some of the stronger options. There's even a whole bunch of level-locked 'legendary' talents for martials to perform impressive feats.
I have been genuinely impressed by it. Ain't perfect, but it sure lets you make more complex martials. Shows that this stuff ain't impossible.
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2022-09-28, 09:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
As I've been starting work towards a 5e version of the 4e fighter, I've realized that while it would be slightly more complex, it doesn't actually change much. Because the majority of things can already be done by a 5e fighter with a variant rule (marking), but better, and the remaining things come down to minor combat effects. Seriously, the BM fighter steals 90% of the 4e fighter's abilities, plus a bunch that it doesn't have. And the 4e fighter (like all 4e classes) has nothing of any use outside of combat.
So it basically adds complexity but neither power nor noncombat utility. And actually restricts a lot of things--the 4e fighter can't grapple unless they take the one power that immobilizes (and that only until End of Next Turn). They can't prone unless they take the power that does that. They can't self-heal unless they take the power that does that. Action Surge just isn't even on the table. Attacking more than once or more than one creature in a turn is tied to a particular set of powers.
Ok, there are a couple nice things you could port over without much issue. But 90% of the rest is worse than the base 4e BM fighter.
Seriously, if you want the 4e fighter, do 2 things
1. Use the marking optional rule.
2. Take (or give for free) Sentinel at level 1.
3. Choose the BM subclass. By level 20 you'll have a similar number of powers (~8, with a 4e fighter having 4 dailies, 4 encounters, and up to 7 utilities, but most of those are just regular 5e fighter features instead), and still be able to do things even when you don't have any powers left.
Congratulations, you've got the Best Parts version of a 4e fighter, with a bunch of flexibility and a lot less cruft and nonsense.Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2022-09-28 at 09:33 AM.
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2022-09-28, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Agreed. Though it's got its own problems (could use pass by an editor more familiar with 5e, plenty of talents are just separated points from feats, overreliance on bonus actions), Spheres of Might is pretty good for martial options. And it's freely available!
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2022-09-28, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
I haven't read it but wanted to point out - one martial-friendly way to alleviate bonus-action-crowding is to do what the Tasha Beastmaster did, and let {thing powered by bonus action} also be activated by giving up one of your Attacks when you take the Attack action, similar to what you can do with commanding your Primal Companion. That would allow you to "get two bonus actions in a round" with a meaningful tradeoff.
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2022-09-28, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
I've come around to the realization that bonus action attacks, in particular, are a problem. Not because getting an extra attack is a problem. Not at all--if they were just "once per turn when you X, you can make an additional attack", there'd be no problem. The problem is the incentives. Especially for classes/builds that can stack a bunch of extra damage on an attack, getting an extra attack is so valuable it becomes a no-brainer as long as the cost isn't extreme (few are willing to multiclass into monk for a martial arts attack as a paladin, for instance). This makes feats (especially) that grant them weigh way heavier than they should. And doing so means that a bunch of other things which make sense as a bonus action get pushed aside or have to be drastically inflated in value to compete.
So I'd say a solution is just to switch all the sources of bonus action attacks to being riders on other various actions, once per turn. Things like "when you take the attack action with a weapon held in one hand, you can make an additional attack as part of that action with a light weapon held in the other hand but this additional attack doesn't add your ability modifier to damage." (wording needs work, but basically lumping TWF into your main attack action). That frees up bonus actions a lot for other things. Swift quiver can just be an action that says "when you cast the spell you make 3 ranged attacks and every turn thereafter when you take the attack action you make an additional attack". Etc.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2022-09-28, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
I agree bonus action attacks are a problem, but in the opposite direction. They should be way easier to get (for martials anyway) than just locking you into hand crossbow/polearm, forcing you to rely on pathetically paltry resources*, or specific subclasses**. And TWF should be a lot easier to pull off, you're already sacrificing defense, damage and even needing twice as many magic weapons.
HP bloat in 5e is a big issue, even with monsters using average health instead of maximum, so I'm all for bigger damage on PCs.
*Ki being one of the more egregious offenders here, especially early on
** Especially ones with massive drawbacks like BerserkerPlague Doctor by Crimmy
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2022-09-28, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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2022-09-28, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
Oh yeah definitely. 4e fighter isn't exactly the king of variety, and so 5e fighter just does everything better. And I don't even particularly enjoy fighter! Now that I think about it, much like monk I'm not sure if fighter has been making a good showing for a while.
Attack replacement is super sick. I love the altered Dragonborn and Bladesinger. Bladesinger's cantrip attack pretty much feels like a bonus-action-less version of the Eldritch Knight's feature. Moving more of this onto the main action would be very much welcome.Last edited by Snowbluff; 2022-09-28 at 11:16 AM.
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2022-09-28, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One
I'd argue that the actual issue is that the game piles all extra attacks on the Attack action. Which makes sense, of course — that's the action where you attack things, after all!
However, it leads to martial characters spamming the Attack action, because doing anything else means that you don't get to do Extra Attack + your PAM bonus action attack (or whatever). And you spent valuable build resources on getting those features, so you're committed.
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2022-09-28, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: I hope martials will get more options in DND One