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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    confused How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    For about 6 years now, I have been porting D20 Modern books and third party books to 5e, because I find bare core mechanics of D&D 3.5 to be far too complicated. This has been my life as a "Forever GM", besides getting to play 5e as a player once every other year.

    Recently, I heard great things about Pathfinder 2e and as someone who wanted to play something between 5e and 3.5/Pathfinder 1e, I was very pleased the one time I got to be a player in this new system.

    Naturally, I am now trying to fit Pathfinder 2e ideas into this system I've been running for six years. Previously, I was shoving stuff from a more complicated system, into a simpler system. Now, I'm shoving things from a more complicated system, into a simpler system, and then shoving things from another more complicated system, but I'm not simplifying the stuff from that second system.

    1. How Insane am I exactly?

    2. How do I describe this new system without sounding insane?
    Last edited by Tevo77777; 2022-09-29 at 02:07 AM.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    Which things are you taking from what system in your homebrew?

    I think if there is one system that you can think of as the "base system", the description becomes a little easier.
    Last edited by not_a_fish; 2022-09-25 at 09:39 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    If one of them is the closest your goal, obviously that becomes a good foundation that allows you to make room for everything else.

    This is what it looks like to become a game designer. You find several different games that you enjoy, some for similar reasons and others for different reasons. Combining those together ultimately defines a new system entirely.
    Death Itself is the current 5e base class contest!

    I Read This in a Book Once is the current 5e subclass contest!




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    PaladinGuy

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    Post Re: How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    Quote Originally Posted by not_a_fish View Post
    Which things are you taking from what system in your homebrew?

    I think if there is one system that you can think of as the "base system", the description becomes a little easier.
    Well, 5e provides the leveling charts, the profic system, most of the skills, how skills work, advantage/disadvantage, ect ect

    However, D-20 Modern core / third party books, provide the more modern skills, feats that are ported or altered, initiative reduction mechanics, carrying capacity, "Race" stats (I prefer that being an Elf has ups and downs), ect ect

    -

    The range mechanics are from a system called "PATROL", some of the damages, items are from a third party system called "Ops and Tactics" which grew out of D20 Modern.

    This results in range calculation being much faster than D20 Modern, and damages reflecting the ratios of most modern RPGs.

    Quote Originally Posted by animorte View Post
    If one of them is the closest your goal, obviously that becomes a good foundation that allows you to make room for everything else.

    This is what it looks like to become a game designer. You find several different games that you enjoy, some for similar reasons and others for different reasons. Combining those together ultimately defines a new system entirely.
    In my six years, one of the things I've learned is that people who are new to RPGs learn this system very fast and/or barely have to learn the rules. People who are very attached to one of the parent systems get annoyed.

    Most of the patches, are not because someone noticed something was wrong, they are because I was stuck at bus stops or on busses for like 90-120 minutes.... and I started doing math or found balance charts, ect ect.

    I've been very pleased that veterans, mil-sim people, and firearms owners found most of the mechanics, stats to be very logical.
    Last edited by Tevo77777; 2022-09-25 at 05:20 PM.
    If I ever think that I've gone too far in my Homebrew, I can just think about how Kane0 isn't considered crazy, so why would I be considered so?
    -
    D20 Modern's handling of shotguns is the perfect case of not balancing for fun OR realism OR efficiency.
    -
    Where would I go to get people to test mechanics? Reddit?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    I’m legitimately interested in the details within.
    Death Itself is the current 5e base class contest!

    I Read This in a Book Once is the current 5e subclass contest!




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    PaladinGuy

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    Post Re: How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    Quote Originally Posted by animorte View Post
    I’m legitimately interested in the details within.
    When I last was on this site, I was just a 20 year old (Like as smart as 22 year old, but bad at speaking and deciding like 16 year old), who thought Pathfinder had a simpler skill system than D20 Modern.

    I was using a website called "Modern Path". It introduced some mechanics I liked, but it had powerful weapons as weak and weak weapons as powerful... for some reason.

    I also hated BAB for some reason, and the classes were not balanced, and they sucked.

    I ended up dragging the system into 5.0, and writing my own classes, from scratch.

    Spoiler: Oldest Salvaged Supplement
    Show

    This is what was salvaged, from the oldest supplement I have in "Operator Hardcore 5.0"

    Every single character was meant to be an addicted, unstable husk of a person. A person who had done bad things and now was in the gutter of a third world nation.

    I had this idea that every downside, would have some accidental upside.

    We're missing the pairs and we are missing almost all of the descriptions for the backgrounds.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing
    If I ever think that I've gone too far in my Homebrew, I can just think about how Kane0 isn't considered crazy, so why would I be considered so?
    -
    D20 Modern's handling of shotguns is the perfect case of not balancing for fun OR realism OR efficiency.
    -
    Where would I go to get people to test mechanics? Reddit?

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Post Nowhere Else To Put This Right Now.

    Tracking Down Why The Hell I Used "Modern" Path(Finder)" And Not D20 Modern
    I have threads on here from six years ago about how I started my journey and how the first four campaigns went.

    1. Too many specific skills.

    2. To quote this person.

    "Gun rules in general have problems. Unlike swords, guns have real-life stats that are easily researchable. Some guns are (in real-life) bluntly better than others. A 10 mm bullet should deal more damage than a 9 mm bullet. Good luck balancing that. It's not possible. Never pick up a .44 (11 mm) weapon that doesn't deal more damage than a 9 mm weapon, because the only thing you get out of it is half the bullet capacity."

    I actually made a video about how Modern Path's idea of "Kick" to allow for more powerful weapons and to balance them, was a good idea, but they made the powerful stuff weak and the weak stuff powerful...For some reason.

    Tracking Down Why The Hell I Made The “Operator Hardcore 5.0” System

    1. I thought the Skills in D20 Modern were too plentiful and specific, but the “Modern Path(finder)” website I was looking at, wasn’t quite working either. So 5e.

    2. Didn’t like BAB.

    2. The Fast class seemed really broken, and the Tough class seemed weak by comparison. Generally there was strange stuff with the classes. So… Seemed logical to write my own classes and playtest them to see if they were balanced enough.

    3. I thought that Skills people would take very rarely, should be half off, to encourage people to take them.

    4. The world is full of hundreds of different pistols and they seem to have a purpose in real life, and are cool in movies/games, but they’re useless in D20 Modern.

    5. I didn’t want armor to be an AC thing. Why not just have a number for a weapon and a number for armor, then see which is higher?

    6. I thought the range system was both too complicated and not realistic.

    7. The Shotguns are nerfed so badly, and because quoting people is fun.

    Spoiler: Shotgun Quotes
    Show
    I must respectfully disagree. Shotguns are horribly, horribly nerfed in D20 modern, taking -1 to an already comparatively low damage per range increment. There will always be a better weapon for the price you can get one at.

    Sawed off shotgun? .44 magnum S&W 29. Three times the range, three times the ammo capacity, and no -4 when wielding against an adjacent enemy or the reduction in damage.

    Mossberg? AK. More than twice the range, 5 times the ammo capacity and easier reloading, and automatic fire for a little higher restriction rating. Same base price.

    BPS? Winchester 94. More ammo, triple the range, and cheaper.

    Shotguns are given a dramatically shorter stick. For no good reason.


    D20 Modern Designers Literally Admitting They Made The Shotguns Bad On Purpose, Based On Nonsense That No Person Whose Used A Shotgun Would Agree With.
    Last edited by Tevo77777; 2022-09-29 at 02:15 AM.
    If I ever think that I've gone too far in my Homebrew, I can just think about how Kane0 isn't considered crazy, so why would I be considered so?
    -
    D20 Modern's handling of shotguns is the perfect case of not balancing for fun OR realism OR efficiency.
    -
    Where would I go to get people to test mechanics? Reddit?

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Nowhere Else To Put This Right Now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tevo77777 View Post
    4. The world is full of hundreds of different pistols and they seem to have a purpose in real life, and are cool in movies/games, but they’re useless in D20 Modern.
    The world also has hundreds of different cars, graphics cards, clothing manufacturers, and lots of other stuff.

    Simulating things down to a high level of detail is a trap, unless that is all you want a game to do.

    At some point, you should just say:
    Handgun:
    1d6 accuracy
    1d10 damage
    1d6 ammo

    If you want to name the specific gun, have someone who knows a lot about guns do so.

    Mechanics here are:
    1) You add 1d6 to the attack roll.
    2) It does 1d10 damage
    3) When you attack, roll 1d6; on a 3+, your ammo die becomes 1d4. If you roll 3+ on 1d4, you run out of ammo.

    You can choose to attack with care ("pick your shots"), giving you "disadvantage" on accuracy in exchange for advantage on ammo (roll accuracy twice, take worst result; roll ammo twice, take better result).

    Semi-auto weapons permit you to use ammo liberally - advantage on accuracy, roll twice for ammo.

    Burst-auto weapons let you do burst-fire - advantage on damage and accuracy, roll twice for ammo.

    Full auto weapons let you empty a clip - double damage dice, roll 3x for ammo.

    Yes, this means you aren't counting bullets. And sometimes you'll run out of ammo after hitting someone once.

    In this model, "attacking with a gun" may involve shooting any number of times.

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Nowhere Else To Put This Right Now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    The world also has hundreds of different cars, graphics cards, clothing manufacturers, and lots of other stuff.

    Simulating things down to a high level of detail is a trap, unless that is all you want a game to do.

    At some point, you should just say:
    Handgun:
    1d6 accuracy
    1d10 damage
    1d6 ammo

    If you want to name the specific gun, have someone who knows a lot about guns do so.

    Mechanics here are:
    1) You add 1d6 to the attack roll.
    2) It does 1d10 damage
    3) When you attack, roll 1d6; on a 3+, your ammo die becomes 1d4. If you roll 3+ on 1d4, you run out of ammo.

    You can choose to attack with care ("pick your shots"), giving you "disadvantage" on accuracy in exchange for advantage on ammo (roll accuracy twice, take worst result; roll ammo twice, take better result).

    Semi-auto weapons permit you to use ammo liberally - advantage on accuracy, roll twice for ammo.

    Burst-auto weapons let you do burst-fire - advantage on damage and accuracy, roll twice for ammo.

    Full auto weapons let you empty a clip - double damage dice, roll 3x for ammo.

    Yes, this means you aren't counting bullets. And sometimes you'll run out of ammo after hitting someone once.

    In this model, "attacking with a gun" may involve shooting any number of times.
    Clarification. D20 MODERN, THE WORLD, PUBLISHED BY THE WIZARDS THAT LIVE ON THE COAST, OFFICAL BOOKS. That world, hundred/s of pistols

    Core book has plenty of guns, Weapons locker has hundreds of weapons.

    There is literally six types of firearms in game, and a single easy to get pistol is better than like 50 guns in game.

    Every other system that has firearms, and is set in the last 120 years, has better firearms rules and selections. There are system after system where combat is pretty quick, and your choice of weapon matters enough to spend an hour making a simple decision.

    No video game designer is this stupid. People don't add weapons unless the players have some reason to use them.

    Your arguments are against a strawman, they hold as much water as an open hand, and they are repelled by again, modern RPG system after Modern RPG system.

    Rolling for ammo is insane and absurd.
    Last edited by Tevo77777; 2022-09-29 at 04:32 PM.
    If I ever think that I've gone too far in my Homebrew, I can just think about how Kane0 isn't considered crazy, so why would I be considered so?
    -
    D20 Modern's handling of shotguns is the perfect case of not balancing for fun OR realism OR efficiency.
    -
    Where would I go to get people to test mechanics? Reddit?

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    Sorry for offending you with game mechanics.

    But wow, that was a reaction.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    I've heard there are a number of things, like the action economy, that can be easily adapted from PF2. But overall, I think how Everything has been feat-ized is a deterrent.

    If you're interested in a "D20-Modern-For-5e", I recommend Amazing Adventures 5e. It's exactly what I want in a "modern" game, and fully compatible with 5e. Classes and such can be interchangeable. Pretty cool!

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    Default Re: How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tevo77777 View Post
    1. How Insane am I exactly?

    2. How do I describe this new system without sounding insane?
    1. combining D20 with simpler D20 and D20 again? the only insane thing about that is how "Its Been Done" that is. the answer is you get more D20, there is nothing out there about it. DnD heartbreakers are a dime a dozen.

    2. "I combined three variations of D20 into one, look my DnD Heartbreaker."

    I guarantee you as far as ttrpgs go, making yet another variation of D20 for yourself is hardly crazy or notable.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    I guarantee you as far as ttrpgs go, making yet another variation of D20 for yourself is hardly crazy or notable.
    While you make very good points, it can be notable if it’s balanced. But it’s difficult to develop something new these days with the saturation in the market, as inferred by your words already.
    Death Itself is the current 5e base class contest!

    I Read This in a Book Once is the current 5e subclass contest!




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    PaladinGuy

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    confused Re: How Insane Is It To Mix D20 Modern, 5e, and Pathfinder 2e?

    I mean, I thought locking HP at what normally was maxed out level 3 HP..... Till like level 7.... Was kinda an out there idea.

    I can't believe I'm thinking this, but now I want to be perceived as insane again.
    If I ever think that I've gone too far in my Homebrew, I can just think about how Kane0 isn't considered crazy, so why would I be considered so?
    -
    D20 Modern's handling of shotguns is the perfect case of not balancing for fun OR realism OR efficiency.
    -
    Where would I go to get people to test mechanics? Reddit?

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