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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Small multiverses in fiction.

    Long ago, In a galaxy far, far away... Nope, it wasn't in this universe at all, there is no "Force" here. Why is the real universe so durn tooting huge? We don't need it to be so big for anything we plan to do, ever, and it's not going to last forever anyway (probably).

    So, for stories, I suggest small multiverses, say seven universes with seven stellar systems in each one, with gates between places that take you to any one destination within the multiverse for any particular gate, there's a gate at the exit, but it doesn't necessarily take you back, if it does, you can see through, if not it's blank. My gates are too small for an adult elephant to go through, even squirming, not that elephants squirm much. I'm thinking maybe three or so habitable planets per stellar system at most. All of the stars in one universe should be close together, within say ten light years of the nearest, but the geometry between them would vary, and dim stars might not be visible from any other system.

    There are multiple multiverses, because in one magic exists, in that one each universe has different levels of magic, one nothing, one super powerful, the rest in grades in between, no two the same. Another multiverse, all the planetary and bigger bodies are alive, and talk to the characters, and do things, but are limited by their physicalities, they are not gods though they may claim to be. In a third multiverse, there are gods. In a fourth, there is one god called Enid who is in control of everything. In a fifth, there is no magic and no gods. There may be other multiverses.

    These multiverses are good for stories of travel, and returning home by long journeys, maybe quests, they are probably not so good for wars.

    I want to read these stories, but I don't have much inclination to write them, and I don't have the time to write all of them, obviously anyone can change these multiverses then write their own stories, I might write some of mine one day, so don't use them as is or there might be conflict, but altered versions should be fine (I am not a lawyer, and this is not qualified legal advice).
    Last edited by halfeye; 2022-09-26 at 10:36 PM.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    This .... basically sounds like core premise of Kingdom Hearts?
    but maybe not the aesthetic you're looking for.

    Maybe there was a LEGO game that allowed you to go to different LEGO worlds...
    Or maybe I only dreamt of that...

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    There's plenty of dimension hopping stories where the universes may as well just be one planet. Piers Anthony's Mode series for example, or David Drake's Northworld.

    Not too many stories of the type very interested in space travel at all. Kind of...adjacent genres? One kind of takes the role of another. If there's space travel you can just make Planets of Hats. If there's multiple universes you don't really need space travel.

    This is likely why you haven't seen anything exactly like this before.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2022-09-27 at 12:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    I think OP's point is that the multiverses follow different rules?
    That's why they are multiverses as opposed to "planets of hats", but maybe the distinction is only semantic...

    Actually, speaking of the different levels of magic in each multiverse, there's the manga series which does that: Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle
    Some multiverses are entirely based on magic, others on technology, etc... and the characters have to follow certain rules in each of them.

    Sadly, the anime adaptation it got veered very well off the intended plotline.
    Like, it's straight up just a different story past a certain (quite early) point.
    There are some decently high-quality OVAs (direct-to-video releases) but they are nigh incomprehensible without familiarity with the source.
    And they only cover maybe like 1% of the story.

    I have seen it sold here occasionally.
    However, given how old it is, idk if many official translators still stock/sell it abroad.
    but I would never advocate you "sail the grand line"...

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Not too many stories of the type very interested in space travel at all. Kind of...adjacent genres? One kind of takes the role of another. If there's space travel you can just make Planets of Hats. If there's multiple universes you don't really need space travel.
    Pretty much. In general, whether utilizing space travel or multiverses the device has the same purpose, get beyond the boundaries of Earth, and both can be as limited or expansive as necessary. Settings using FTL can make it highly restrictive, allowing access to only a handful of star systems (naturally occurring rare wormholes is often used for this method), or massively expansive allowing stories to operate on galactic scale (theoretically one can go beyond that, but it's largely irrelevant to do so). Restricted multiverses are also possible, with only some small number of planes of existence in total (many mythological realms are like this).

    There are some highly expansive universes that include massive space travel and also multiple dimensions/timelines or other factors that qualify them as a multiverse, though this is rarely their focus. For example, the Culture Universe includes references to a multiverse, such as the titular Excession, but is primarily concerned with galactic society. A limited universe with both would be very rare, I believe.
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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by MetroAlien View Post
    I think OP's point is that the multiverses follow different rules?
    That's why they are multiverses as opposed to "planets of hats", but maybe the distinction is only semantic...

    Actually, speaking of the different levels of magic in each multiverse, there's the manga series which does that: Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle
    Some multiverses are entirely based on magic, others on technology, etc... and the characters have to follow certain rules in each of them.

    Sadly, the anime adaptation it got veered very well off the intended plotline.
    Like, it's straight up just a different story past a certain (quite early) point.
    There are some decently high-quality OVAs (direct-to-video releases) but they are nigh incomprehensible without familiarity with the source.
    And they only cover maybe like 1% of the story.

    I have seen it sold here occasionally.
    However, given how old it is, idk if many official translators still stock/sell it abroad.
    but I would never advocate you "sail the grand line"...
    Tsubasa is good fun, but you get into the issue of not just having to read that, but also xxxHolic (it's not porn I swear) and swap between them at relatively hard to determine times to get the full plot...which kinda goes off the rails about 2/3 to 3/4 of the way through both of them anyway.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    This is part of the premise of Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy.
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    "The Long Earth" by Terry Pratchett and Stephen Baxter might fit what you are looking for. So might "Interworld" by Neil Gaiman.
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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    I could see a potentially interesting variation if you assumed each planet existed in each universe, but altered according to its local rules. That would sorta still be the same end result as simply having X universes/planets rather than X planets copied across Y universes, but somewhat more tightly themed.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by MetroAlien View Post
    Maybe there was a LEGO game that allowed you to go to different LEGO worlds...
    Or maybe I only dreamt of that...
    Sounds like LEGO Island 2.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeson View Post
    Sounds like LEGO Island 2.
    Could also be Lego Dimensions.
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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Star Trek has exactly one parallel universe, the mirror dimension where everyone is their evil (or good) counterpart. Which highlights one of the potential problems with the idea: The multiversum plot device is usually handwaved with the multiversum interpretation of quantum mechanics, giving the authors a convenient excuse for visiting a what-if-scenario. That handwaving requires both, infinite universes and that the differences be small (at least at the point of divergence). A limited number of universes with highly specific rules needs an explanation of why this specific set of universes exists because it looks too much like intelligent design (which, of course, it is, because the author constructed it that way ). That might not mesh well with settings that go for a more scientific feel in their worldbuilding. Star Trek has just enough god-like beings in the setting that might explain why all dimensional travel goes to the one parallel universe that evolved exactly the way to contain an evil twin for everyone currently alive. But then again, the inclusion of literal gods always felt strange in Star Trek.
    Last edited by Seppl; 2022-09-27 at 08:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    There are some highly expansive universes that include massive space travel and also multiple dimensions/timelines or other factors that qualify them as a multiverse, though this is rarely their focus. For example, the Culture Universe includes references to a multiverse, such as the titular Excession, but is primarily concerned with galactic society. A limited universe with both would be very rare, I believe.
    Dragonball Super has exactly five timelines, more of which are created by unstable forms of time travel. Each timeline has a set of 12 universes (created in pairs which share the same planets) plus pocket dimensions. Each universe has life on multiple planets, and FTL space travel that can theoretically be used to reach divine realms like Heaven and Hell (they're just very distant regions of space with special properties). Though sometimes it seems like the "universes" are just galactic clusters with incalculable distance between them.

    And then spin-offs introduce their own rules so that they can have dozens of extra timelines which don't count as part of the main set.
    Last edited by Prime32; 2022-09-27 at 12:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prime32 View Post
    Dragonball Super has exactly five timelines, more of which are created by unstable forms of time travel. Each timeline has a set of 12 universes (created in pairs which share the same planets) plus pocket dimensions. Each universe has life on multiple planets, and FTL space travel that can theoretically be used to reach divine realms like Heaven and Hell (they're just very distant regions of space with special properties). Though sometimes it seems like the "universes" are just galactic clusters with incalculable distance between them.

    And then spin-offs introduce their own rules so that they can have dozens of extra timelines which don't count as part of the main set.
    What are the five timelines? Gokus reality, Future Trunks, what else?
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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Why would they even need to be multiverses? Nothing in the OP particularly suggests the idea couldn't be done in different planets.



    Mind you, I would never be the target audience, because I WANT to try and impress on people an Understanding of Scale and how truly enormous the universe is, and how complicated and messy and difficult to explain it is, and so be able fully appreciate the grandure and complexity for what it is. Metaphorically, that one clip of Samuel L Jackson (presumably for Pulp Fiction) about wanting someone to acknowledge that miracle that just happened.

    (But having written exceeding quarter of a million words on that sort of thing (and ironically noting in variety the sort of diversity between worlds or powers in the OP's multiverse suggestions), which I can only verify has been 100% read by two other people (both from this forum, thank you Thanqol and Rater202), it rather confirms I am in a minority of asymptoting to one. I'd be more self-deprecating, but I'm sort of past the point it is self-deprecating humour and more the bitter truth, so...)

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Star Trek has exactly one parallel universe.
    I stopped buying consoles after the SNES era, so I don't know where things went after that, but The Legend of Zelda: a Link to the Past is similarly 2-worlds.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    What are the five timelines? Gokus reality, Future Trunks, what else?
    There are two Future Trunks timelines in Z; the one where Cell ambushes him after he gets back from the first time jump and the one where he comes back and kills the Androids and Cell.

    In Super there's the timeline where Beerus uses Hakai on Zamasu, and the one where he doesn't...which creates a THIRD Future Trunks timeline.

    And the timeline where he doesn't obliterate Zamasu splits into the timeline we see and the split he yoinks Goku Black from.

    These are the four I THINK besides the "main timeline" (which is in and of itself a dplit from the true "original" timeline, Future Trunks' timeline), but this **** is overly complicated. No wonder Beerus has the response of "kill first, ask questions never" on time travel bull****.

    Technically there are more, because Dragonball time travel lore is basically that just using time travel creates entirely new timelines, you can never truly change anything in a specific timeline. There's an entire wall of rings that represent created timelines just in the Universe 10 (where Zamasu is from) realm of the Kais.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    I feel like the issue with designing a setting with the specific goal of of encompassing several different styles or genres of stories is that most authors don't want to write several different genres of fiction. Writers, like most artists, tend to specialize in a particular style, or maybe go through phases from one thing to another as their interests change and evolve over time.

    This idea might work as a means for a group of authors to do some sort of interconnected storytelling, like how Marvel brings together magic and space and spy heroes in one story, but that takes a lot of work and planning.
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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by MetroAlien View Post
    This .... basically sounds like core premise of Kingdom Hearts?
    but maybe not the aesthetic you're looking for.

    Maybe there was a LEGO game that allowed you to go to different LEGO worlds...
    Or maybe I only dreamt of that...
    I was thinking of text stories rather than games, but games could be good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    There's plenty of dimension hopping stories where the universes may as well just be one planet. Piers Anthony's Mode series for example, or David Drake's Northworld.
    I don't remember reading either of those, if they're recent I probably never did.

    Not too many stories of the type very interested in space travel at all. Kind of...adjacent genres? One kind of takes the role of another. If there's space travel you can just make Planets of Hats. If there's multiple universes you don't really need space travel.

    This is likely why you haven't seen anything exactly like this before.
    Planet of hats sounds bad, the idea (in the levels of magic multiverse) would be that the no-magic universe could be explored by a high technology civilisation, but they couldn't conquer the rest of the multiverse because magic. Another idea is that someone from a low magic universe gated into a high magic one tries to light a fire, and woops, scary mega-fireball. It's probably mainly a setting for journeys, or pursuits, the paths from gate to gate can be mapped, but the gates only have one destination, so there might be a short cut through gates, or the way back might be thousands of kilometres, then ten, then hundreds, then thousands, then thousands, depending on which gate went where.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgaln View Post
    "The Long Earth" by Terry Pratchett and Stephen Baxter might fit what you are looking for.
    It's good, but it's nothing like this.

    So might "Interworld" by Neil Gaiman.
    I haven't read that. Oddly, the Chronicles of Morgaine also feature gates, but those are different, they're bigger, they can be targetted, and they allow (disastrously) time travel. A good set of stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I could see a potentially interesting variation if you assumed each planet existed in each universe, but altered according to its local rules. That would sorta still be the same end result as simply having X universes/planets rather than X planets copied across Y universes, but somewhat more tightly themed.
    That's a valid possible variation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    Why would they even need to be multiverses? Nothing in the OP particularly suggests the idea couldn't be done in different planets.
    I wanna.

    Mind you, I would never be the target audience, because I WANT to try and impress on people an Understanding of Scale and how truly enormous the universe is, and how complicated and messy and difficult to explain it is, and so be able fully appreciate the grandure and complexity for what it is. Metaphorically, that one clip of Samuel L Jackson (presumably for Pulp Fiction) about wanting someone to acknowledge that miracle that just happened.
    The real universe is too big. It's inhuman. I don't think anyone really gets the scale of the thing. Just the Milky Way is too big, and there are a billion of it.

    (But having written exceeding quarter of a million words on that sort of thing (and ironically noting in variety the sort of diversity between worlds or powers in the OP's multiverse suggestions), which I can only verify has been 100% read by two other people (both from this forum, thank you Thanqol and Rater202), it rather confirms I am in a minority of asymptoting to one. I'd be more self-deprecating, but I'm sort of past the point it is self-deprecating humour and more the bitter truth, so...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillianHawkeye View Post
    I feel like the issue with designing a setting with the specific goal of of encompassing several different styles or genres of stories is that most authors don't want to write several different genres of fiction. Writers, like most artists, tend to specialize in a particular style, or maybe go through phases from one thing to another as their interests change and evolve over time.

    This idea might work as a means for a group of authors to do some sort of interconnected storytelling, like how Marvel brings together magic and space and spy heroes in one story, but that takes a lot of work and planning.
    I'm not thinking of a multiverse being for multiple genres, I'm not thinking of more than one multiverse appearing in one story (if they do, doesn't that just make it one bigger multiverse?) I'm thinking of the story being about the journeys across the lands between the gates, not about the details of the rests between journey stages. I particularly do not want long and vaguely detailed descriptions of food eaten at various stops, nothing wrong with people wanting that if they do, it's just not me.
    Last edited by halfeye; 2022-09-27 at 04:55 PM.
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    The series are pretty recent in the cosmic scheme of things, but most people don't refer to the early 90s as "recent" anymore. =p
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2022-09-27 at 05:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    There are two Future Trunks timelines in Z; the one where Cell ambushes him after he gets back from the first time jump and the one where he comes back and kills the Androids and Cell.
    The Trunks that died supposedly let his guard down because he thought everything was finished. There's also the question of why Cell didn't just eat the Future Trunks androids.

    The way I saw it explained was this:

    Timeline 1: Original timeline where Goku dies of a heart attack. Bulma invents a time machine and sends Trunks back.

    Timeline 2: Same as the Prime timeline, except Cell isn't around. Bulma invents the remote detonator for the androids, and they are successfully used to blow up the androids. Trunks does not grow significantly stronger as he never needs to fight the androids, they're just blown up. Trunks returns to Timeline 1 and uses the remote detonator on the future androids. Cell discovers this, ambushes Trunks and kills him, then steals his time machine.

    Timeline 3: A.k.a. the Prime Timeline, where the show happens. Cell arriving causes it to split off from Timeline 2 around the point where they discover the second time machine and Kami senses Cell drinking people. After everything is done, Trunks returns to Timeline 1 and kills the androids with strength rather than the remote detonator, and is ready for Cell's ambush and eliminates him.

    Not sure if that's totally accurate (it's been a loooooong time since I watched myself) but it does track and leaves us with the correct number of Trunks and Cells running around.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Yeah, that may be it. I know theres a 3/2 split somewhere between Z and Super, but not exactly where.

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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Have you ever looked into the Hell's Gate series by David Weber+Linda Evans? Its setting conceit is a multiverse linked by planar rifts/gates between parallel worlds, and what happens when the inhabitants of two different universes - one with steam-age tech and psi talents, the other with medieval tech and magic - encounter each other and end up going to war. One thing they quickly learn is that the more 'verses they move from their home universe, the weaker their respective powers get, and vice versa.

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    While it's a gaming setting with a lot of campaign material, but not a lot of fiction, the cosmology of Harnworld is very close to what the OP describes. Here's a "map" of the different worlds (each one being pretty much one solar system), connected by "godstone" gates, and various other mechanisms


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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    I'm not thinking of a multiverse being for multiple genres, I'm not thinking of more than one multiverse appearing in one story (if they do, doesn't that just make it one bigger multiverse?) I'm thinking of the story being about the journeys across the lands between the gates, not about the details of the rests between journey stages. I particularly do not want long and vaguely detailed descriptions of food eaten at various stops, nothing wrong with people wanting that if they do, it's just not me.
    If one universe is sci-fi and another universe is high fantasy and another universe is gritty low magic sword & sorcery, those are all settings usually associated with particular genres of fiction. If you write a story where low-magic warrior hero must travel via gates through big magic fantasyland and then has to go through high tech spaceland to get back home, that's a multi-genre story IMO. And if the universes don't cross over, there's no point in them being in a shared multiverse.

    Not sure what your comments about multiple multiverses or long descriptions of food are about. Neither of us mentioned either of those things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    The real universe is too big. It's inhuman. I don't think anyone really gets the scale of the thing. Just the Milky Way is too big, and there are a billion of it.
    That's a positive, both in terms of fiction and otherwise. Even just talking about fiction, that just means there is always narrative room.

    Knowing the limits of everything makes everything instantly boring. The unanswered questions, the unknowns, the "what's out there," that is often the most compelling thing or hook. (Paizo's decision with Golarion to explcitly have unanswered questions is one of the thing that makes in unquestionably the best non-homebrew setting (for any RPG, not just D&D) in my opinion. (Another major part is actually having a solar system and not... *shudder* Spelljammer's reductive nonsense.)) Or is that drive, that curiosity, not a thing that motivates people anymore? And if it is, why try and set limits to it?

    (If is genuinely isn't, then I really, really have nothing left in common with humanity.)

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    That's a positive, both in terms of fiction and otherwise. Even just talking about fiction, that just means there is always narrative room.

    Knowing the limits of everything makes everything instantly boring. The unanswered questions, the unknowns, the "what's out there," that is often the most compelling thing or hook. (Paizo's decision with Golarion to explcitly have unanswered questions is one of the thing that makes in unquestionably the best non-homebrew setting (for any RPG, not just D&D) in my opinion. (Another major part is actually having a solar system and not... *shudder* Spelljammer's reductive nonsense.)) Or is that drive, that curiosity, not a thing that motivates people anymore? And if it is, why try and set limits to it?

    (If is genuinely isn't, then I really, really have nothing left in common with humanity.)
    Personally, I found that when they started answering background questions and narrativising Warhammer and Warhammer 40k they killed much of the "magic" of the settings and created the "comic book problem"* for themselves.


    *for those who don't know my terms that would mean constantly having to 1-up things creating a narrative bloat cluster and repeated cyclical re-boots regurgitating the same stories endlessly

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    Star Trek has exactly one parallel universe, the mirror dimension where everyone is their evil (or good) counterpart.
    In the original series, possibly, but otherwise Star Trek has many timelines. Some of these coexist while others have erased each other, depending on this week's flavor of time travel / dimension hopping.

    The franchise also has things akin to planes of existence, such as:
    • Subspace: Primarily used for interstellar communication but sometimes said to contain lifeforms. Might also be related to "out-of-phase" technologies like the Romulan cloaking device.
    • Fluidic space: A dimension entirely filled with organic matter and home to nigh-invulnerable telepathic shapeshifters called the Undine, better known by their Borg designation of Species 8472.
    • Q Continuum: At once the name of a civilization of godlike entities and the higher realm in which they seem to live. The latter is perceived as a road, its true form impossible to process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    I stopped buying consoles after the SNES era, so I don't know where things went after that, but The Legend of Zelda: a Link to the Past is similarly 2-worlds.
    One of the great pastimes of the TLoZ fandom is trying to figure out the branching timelines. This notably involves the MM/WW split:

    Ocarina of Time ---> Majora's Mask ---> Twilight Princess
    ---> The Wind Waker ---> Phantom Hourglass
    And that's again before going into worlds that just exist in their own spaces, like Termina, Lorule or the Twilight.
    Homebrew planar maps for D&D 5e:
    • Standard planes: English / French / Medal
    • Additional planes: English / French / Thread (eventually)
    • For spelljamming: English / French / Thread (eventually)

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
     
    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    To answer the OPs question, Philip Jose Farmer had separate realities, IIRC referred to as pocket universes, in World of Tiers series. I only read five of them, in the 70's, and until I did a search today had not realized that he released a sixth one in 1993.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
    a. Malifice (paraphrased):
    Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
    b. greenstone (paraphrased):
    Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
    Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Small multiverses in fiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Millstone85 View Post
    One of the great pastimes of the TLoZ fandom is trying to figure out the branching timelines. This notably involves the MM/WW split:

    Ocarina of Time ---> Majora's Mask ---> Twilight Princess
    ---> The Wind Waker ---> Phantom Hourglass
    And that's again before going into worlds that just exist in their own spaces, like Termina, Lorule or the Twilight.
    I, uh, recognize most of the individual words there (minus specific nouns, which are clearly person and place names).

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