Sword & Sorcery fiction, D&D, and the price of magic

[2D8HP]

Sword & Sorcery fiction may be (perhaps dubiously( thought of as a subset of “Epic Fantasy”, or (more likely) “Heroic Fantasy”, but it may also be regarded as a descendant of Weird Fiction birthed in Weird Tales magazine, alongside the tales of H.P. Lovecraft:

"All my stories... are based on the fundamental lore or legend that this world was inhabited at one time or another by a race who, in practicing black magic, lost their foothold and were expelled, yet live on outside ever ready to take possession of this earth again."

and in considering much of the works, that quote describes many Sword & Sorcery tales setting as well.

One particular “trope” often employed in the stories is magic has a price

Spoiler: In Howard's "The Tower of the Elephant" the sorcerer-priest Yara pays a price of

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[…]Yara bent over the table and gripped the gem in his hands, staring into its shadowed depths, as if it were a magnet to draw the shuddering soul from his body. And as Conan looked, he thought that his eyes must be playing him tricks. For when Yara had risen up from his couch, the priest had seemed gigantically tall; yet now he saw that Yara's head would scarcely come to his shoulder. He blinked, puzzled, and for the first time that night, doubted his own senses. Then with a shock he realized that the priest was shrinking in stature—was growing smaller before his very gaze.

With a detached feeling he watched, as a man might watch a play; immersed in a feeling of overpowering unreality, the Cimmerian was no longer sure of his own identity; he only knew that he was looking upon the external evidence of the unseen play of vast Outer forces, beyond his understanding.

Now Yara was no bigger than a child; now like an infant he sprawled on the table, still grasping the jewel. And now the sorcerer suddenly realized his fate, and he sprang up, releasing the gem. But still he dwindled, and Conan saw a tiny, pygmy figure rushing wildly about the ebony table-top, waving tiny arms and shrieking in a voice that was like the squeak of an insect.

Now he had shrunk until the great jewel towered above him like a hill, and Conan saw him cover his eyes with his hands, as if to shield them from the glare, as he staggered about like a madman. Conan sensed that some unseen magnetic force was pulling Yara to the gem. Thrice he raced wildly about it in a narrowing circle, thrice he strove to turn and run out across the table; then with a scream that echoed faintly in the ears of the watcher, the priest threw up his arms and ran straight toward the blazing globe.

Bending close, Conan saw Yara clamber up the smooth, curving surface, impossibly, like a man climbing a glass mountain. Now the priest stood on the top, still with tossing arms, invoking what grisly names only the gods know. And suddenly he sank into the very heart of the jewel, as a man sinks into a sea, and Conan saw the smoky waves close over his head. Now he saw him in the crimson heart of the jewel, once more crystal-clear, as a man sees a scene far away, tiny with great distance. And into the heart came a green, shining winged figure with the body of a man and the head of an elephant—no longer blind or crippled. Yara threw up his arms and fled as a madman flees, and on his heels came the avenger. Then, like the bursting of a bubble, the great jewel vanished in a rainbow burst of iridescent gleams, and the ebony table-top lay bare and deserted—as bare, Conan somehow knew, as the marble couch in the chamber above, where the body of that strange transcosmic being called Yag-kosha and Yogah had lain[…]

-Tower of the Elephant (1933) by Robert E. Howard



And in "Conan the Barbarian" (1982 film) Valeria owes her life to 'The Gods of the Mound" for the magic to save Conan.

Spoiler: In Moore's “Black God's Kiss" (1933) the price paid by Jirel for the magic to kill Guillaume the Conqueror

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is to fall in love with him upon his death

Spoiler: later another sorcerer gets on Jirel’s nerves

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[…]That thick, mocking chuckle reached her remotely, penetrated her magic-stilled mind. It echoed round and round there, for a long while, before she realized what it meant. But at last she remembered, and her mind woke a Uttle from its inertia, and such anger swept over her that its heat was an actual pain. Giraud, the runaway sorcerer, laughing at Joiry! Holding Jirel of Joiry in his spell! Mocking her! Blindly she wrenched at the bonds of magic, blindly urged her body forward. She could see nothing but that non-existent point where the lifted arms would have crossed, in measureless distances, but she felt the dagger-hilt in her hand, and she lunged forward through invisibility, and did not even know when the blade sank home.
Sight returned to her then in a stunning flood. She rubbed dazed eyes and shook herself and stared round the green meadow in the violet day uncomprehendingly, for her mind was not yet fully awake. Not until she looked down did she remember.
Giraud lay there. The black robes were furled like wings over his quiet body, but red in a thick flood was spreading on the grass, and from the tangled garments her dagger-hilt stood up. Jirel stared down at him, emotionless, her whole body still almost asleep from the power of the dead man 's magic . She could not even feel triumph. She pulled the blade free automatically and wiped it on his robes. Then she sat down beside the body and rested her head in her hands, forcing herself to awaken.
After a long while she looked up again, the old hot light rising in her eyes, life flushing back into her face once more. Shaking off the last shreds of the spell, she got to her feet, sheathing the dagger. About her the violet-misted meadows were very still. No living creature moved anywhere in sight. The trees were motionless in the unstirring air. And beyond the ruins of the marble tower she saw the opening in the woods out of which path had come, very long ago.
Jirel squared her shoulders and turned her back upon her vow fulfilled, and without a backward glance set off across the grass toward the tree-hid ruins which held the gate to home.

- Jirel Meets Magic (1935) by Catherine L. Moore

Spoiler: In Leiber's "Ill Met in Lankhmar" the price paid for Hristomilo’s acts of sorcery

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is:[…]Hristomilo laughed cacklingly and grinned, showing his huge upper incisors, while Slivikin chittered in ecstasy and bounded the higher.
The Mouser hurled Cat's Claw with no better result — worse, indeed, since his action gave two darting smog-strands time to curl hamperingly around his sword- hand and stranglingly around his neck. Black rats came racing out of the big holes at the cluttered base of the walls.
Meanwhile other strands snaked around Fafhrd's ankles, knees and left arm, almost toppling him. But even as he fought for balance, he jerked Vlana's dagger from his belt and raised it over his shoulder, its silver hilt glowing, its blade brown with dried rat's-blood.
The grin left Hristomilo's face as he saw it. The sorcerer screamed strangely and importuningly then and drew back from his parchment and the table, and raised clawed clubhands to ward off doom.
Vlana's dagger sped unimpeded through the black web — its strands even seemed to part for it — and betwixt the sorcerer's warding hands, to bury itself to the hilt in his right eye.
He screamed thinly in dire agony and clawed at his face.
The black web writhed as if in death spasm.
The cucurbits shattered as one, spilling their lava on the scarred table, putting out the blue flames even as the thick wood of the table began to smoke a little at the lava's edge. Lava dropped with plops on the dark marble floor.
With a faint, final scream Hristomilo pitched forward, hands still clutched to his eyes above his jutting nose, silver dagger-hilt still protruding between his fingers.
The web grew faint, like wet ink washed with a gush of clear water.
The Mouser raced forward and transfixed Slivikin and the huge rat with one thrust of Scalpel before the beasts knew what was happening. They too died swiftly with thin screams, while all the other rats turned tail and fled back down their holes swift almost as black lightning.[…]

- Ill Met in Lankhmar (1970) by Fritz Leiber

Spoiler: In the “Elric” stories by Moorcock one price paid after another culminates in

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the end of the world.

For ten thousand years did the Bright Empire of Melniboné flourish – ruling the world. Ten thousand years before history was recorded – or ten thousand years after history had ceased to be chronicled. For that span of time, reckon it how you will, the Bright Empire had thrived. Be hopeful, if you like, and think of the dreadful past the Earth has known, or brood upon the future. But if you would believe the unholy truth – then Time is an agony of Now, and so it will always be.

Ravaged, at last, by the formless terror called Time, Melniboné fell and newer nations succeeded her: Ilmiora, Sheegoth, Maidakh, S’aaleem. Then memory began: Ur, India, China, Egypt, Assyria, Persia, Greece, and Rome – all these came after Melniboné. But none lasted ten thousand years.

And none dealt in the terrible mysteries, the secret sorceries of old Melniboné. None used such power or knew how. Only Melniboné ruled the Earth for one hundred centuries – and then she, shaken by the casting of frightful runes, attacked by powers greater than men, powers who decided that Melniboné’s span of ruling had been overlong —- then she crumbled and her sons were scattered. They became wanderers across an Earth which hated and feared them, siring few offspring, slowly dying, slowly forgetting the secrets of their mighty ancestors. Such a one was the cynical, laughing Elric, a man of bitter brooding and gusty humour, proud prince of ruins, lord of a lost and humbled people; last son of Melniboné’s sundered line of kings.

Elric, the moody-eyed wanderer – a lonely man who fought a world, living by his wits and his runesword Stormbringer. Elric, last lord of Melniboné, last worshipper of its grotesque and beautiful gods – reckless reaver and cynical slayer – torn by great griefs and with knowledge locked in his skull which would turn lesser men to babbling idiots. Elric, moulder of madnesses, dabbler in wild delights[….] - The Dreaming City (1961) by Michael Moorcock

Spoiler: “Doomed Lord’s Passing”

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[…][i]At length Elric’s thoughts were interrupted by Moonglum. “You must blow the horn, Elric. Whether it means nothing or much ― you must finish this business forever!”

“How? I have scarcely enough strength to stand on my feet.”

“I have decided what you must do. Slay me with Stormbringer. Take my soul and vitality into yourself ― then you will have sufficient power to blow the last blast.”

“Kill you, Moonglum! The only one left ― my only true friend? You babble!”

“I mean it. you must, for there is nothing else to do. Further, we have no place here and must die soon at any rate. You told me how Zarozinia gave you her soul ― well, take mine, too!”

“I cannot.”

Moonglum paced towards him and reached down to grip Stormbringer’s hilt, pulling it halfway from the sheath.

“No, Moonglum!”

But now the sword sprang from the sheath on its own volition. Elric struck Moonglum’s hand away and gripped the hilt. He could not stop it. The sword rose up, dragging his arm with it, poised to deliver a blow.

Moonglum stood with his arms by his sides, his face expressionless, though Elric thought he glimpsed a flicker of fear in the eyes. He struggled to control the blade, but knew it was impossible.

“Let it do it work, Elric.”

The blade plunged forward and pierced Moonglum’s heart. His blood sprang out and covered it. His eyes blurred and filled with horror. “Ah, no ― I ― had ― not ― expected this!”

Petrified, Elric could not tug the sword from his friend’s heart. Moonglum’s energy began to flow up its length and course into his body, yet, even when all the little Eastlander’s vitality was absorbed, Elric remained staring at the small corpse until the tears flowed from his crimson eyes and a great sob racked him. Then the blade came free.

He flung it away from him and it did not clatter on the rocky ground but landed as a body might land. Then it seemed to move towards him and stop and he had the suspicion that it was watching him.

He took the horn and put it to his lips. He blew the blast to herald in the night of the new Earth. The night that would precede the new dawn. And though the horn’s note was triumphant, Elric was not. He stood full of infinite loneliness and infinite sorrow, his head titled back as the sound rang on. And, when the note faded from triumph to a dying echo that expressed something of Elric’s misery, a huge outline began to form in the sky above the Earth, as if summoned by the horn.

It was the outline of a gigantic hand holding a balance and, as he watched, the Balance began to right itself until each side was true.

And somehow this relieved Elric’s sorrow as he released his grip on the Horn of Fate.

“There is something, at least,” he said, “and if it’s an illusion, then it’s a reassuring one.”

He turned his head to one side and saw the blade leave the ground, sweep into the air and then rush down on him.

“Stormbringer!” he cried, and then the hellsword struck his chest, he felt the icy touch of the blade against his heart, reached out his fingers to clutch at it, felt his body constrict, felt it sucking his soul from the very depths of his being, felt his whole personality being drawn into the runesword. He knew, as his life faded to combine with the sword’s, that it had always been his destiny to die in this manner. With the blade he had killed friends and lovers, stolen their souls to feed his own waning strength. It was as if the sword had always used him to this end, as if he was merely a manifestation of Stormbringer and was now being taken back into the body of the blade which had never been a true sword. And, as he died, he wept again, for he knew that the fraction of the sword’s soul which was his would never know rest but was doomed to immortality, to eternal struggle.

Elric of Melnibone, last of the Bright Emperors, cried out, and then his body collapsed, a sprawled husk beside its comrade, and he lay beneath the mighty balance that still hung in the sky.

Then Stormbringer’s shape began to change, writhing and curling above the body of the albino, finally to stand astraddle it.

The entity that was Stormbringer, last manifestation of Chaos which would remain with this new world as it grew, looked down on the corpse of Elric of Melnibone and smiled.
“ Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!”
And then it leapt from the Earth and went spearing upwards, it's wild voice laughing mockery at the Cosmic Balance; filling the universe with its unholy joy.

- Stormbringer (1965) by Michael Moorcock



FWLIW here's Gygax on what tales helped inspire Arneson and Gygax to create the Dungeons & Dragons game:

"....those who don't care for Burroughs'
Martian adventures where John Carter is groping through black pits, who feel no thrill upon reading Howard's Conan saga, who do not enjoy the de Camp & Pratt fantasies or Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser pitting their swords against evil sorceries will not be likely to find Dungeons & Dragons to their taste."-E. Gary Gygax
Tactical Studies Rules Editor
1 November 1973
Lake Geneva, Wisconsin

"The most immediate influences upon AD&D were probably de Camp & Pratt, REH, Fritz Leiber, Jack Vance, HPL, and A. Merritt."
-Gygax
16 May 1979

I’ll note here that these authors corresponded with each other, and (especially) with Lovecraft.

The collaborative story “The Challenge from Beyond” was penned by C.L. Moore, A. Merritt, H.P. Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard, and Frank Belknap Long (in that order), and a young Leiber corresponded with Lovecraft, and the still living today Moorcock corresponded with Leiber.

Frankly I think D&D is best when it imitates my favorite author that inspired Dungeons & Dragons, and named a genre!:

"I feel more certain than ever that this field should be called the sword-and-sorcery story. This accurately describes the points of culture-level and supernatural element and also immediately distinguishes it from the cloak-and-sword (historical adventure) story—and (quite incidentally) from the cloak-and-dagger (international espionage) story too!
—Fritz Leiber, Amra, July 1961



I met a very frail seeming Fritz Leiber at a book signing just before he died and he had an impressive smile (I also met Michael Moorcock at a book signing and he has an impressive scowl).

Here’s a few of the stories, which were published from 1939 to 1977:

Induction

Swords and Deviltry

The Jewels in the Forest

The Bleak Shore

Lean Times in Lankhmar

In the Witch's Tent

The Circle Curse

The Sadness of the Executioner

Beauty and the Beasts

The Cloud of Hate

Sea Magic

Throw in Howard's Conan, Moorcock's Elric, and Moore's Jirel tales for a great mix!

I’ll further note that “Epic Fantasy” (so named by Moorcock in 1961’s “Putting A Tag On It”) is now often considered distinct from “Sword & Sorcery” (so named by Leiber in 1961) in that Epic Fantasy dealt with world spanning events, while Sword & Sorcery deals with more ground level doings, and that’s a useful distinction, but for what it’s worth, when Leiber and Moorcock were coining the terms they meant both, and Moorcock’s “Elric” tales do have both ground level and world spanning stories, not unlike a D&D PC’s “leveling up”.

[Psyren]

Frankly I think D&D is best when it imitates my favorite author that inspired Dungeons & Dragons, and named a genre!

Okay.

Are you just stating your preference here? Looking for like-minded souls to commiserate with? Seeking additional examples? Looking for ways to realize this theme/feeling in a particular edition of the game?

[Saph]

Thanks for the thread, that was a nice bit of history!

Old-style sword and sorcery is pretty rare in fantasy publishing these days, but fantasy serials are extremely popular on webfiction sites like Royal Road, many of which end up getting self-published on Kindle. I have the feeling that those online fantasy stories probably hit the same sort of market that the old pulps did, but one thing that's largely disappeared from the modern ones is the "magic has a price" theme.

[2D8HP]

Okay.

Are you just stating your preference here? Looking for like-minded souls to commiserate with? Seeking additional examples? Looking for ways to realize this theme/feeling in a particular edition of the game?

All those sound good!

Thanks for the thread, that was a nice bit of history!

Thanks!

Old-style sword and sorcery is pretty rare in fantasy publishing these days, but fantasy serials are extremely popular on webfiction sites like Royal Road, many of which end up getting self-published on Kindle. I have the feeling that those online fantasy stories probably hit the same sort of market that the old pulps did,

Good to know!

The print anthologies Swords Against Darkness, Swords & Dark Magic, and Sword & Mythos have some new stuff.

but one thing that's largely disappeared from the modern ones is the "magic has a price" theme.

More fairytale-ish than Sword & Sorcery, but Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell by Susanna Clarke, and the far more Sword & Sorcery-ish shared world anthology The Tangled Lands by Paolo Bacigalupi and Tobias S. Buckell both had a “magic has a price” theme.

[KorvinStarmast]

Robin Hobbs' Farseer books, in particular the first three (the assassin books) are very clear about magic exacting a price. Her Soldier's Son books do something similar, but not the same.

Also, magic having a cost was very common in various SF&F books in the 60's through the 80's (the ones that I read); not the bowdlerized guff set in the Forgotten Realms. FWIW, even some of the Dragonlance themes with Raistlin point to magic exacting a price.

There was a book The Master of the Five Magics about a sorcerer coming into his powers that also presents magic as not being a free lunch.

See also The Dragon and the George, but that's a different take with the "accounting department" since it's a mix of SF and Fantasy.

The Dark Sun defiler/preserver themes I think captures part of what you are referring to.

[Eldan]

Farseer, at least the first two trilogies, is "main character suffers (and also has magic) - the Book".

[KorvinStarmast]

Farseer, at least the first two trilogies, is "main character suffers (and also has magic) - the Book".

Prince Verity's long struggle with The Skill as he tries to defend his kingdom is part of the message in re magic exacting a price and it being dangerous to those who don't know how to use it.

The loss of the Art (some of which is re discovered in the second trilogy) is part and parcel to why it is so dangerous to use. Burrich eventually explains, and Fitz discovers, why the Wit is also dangerous to use. (The beginning of Assassin's Quest).

Your snarky review is of no value.

[Psyren]

All those sound good!

Well, that last one would require you stating which edition you're interested in (and possibly starting a satellite thread in that game's subforum )

For me, I enjoy all the flavors of fantasy including S&S. For D&D specifically, I don't think it does S&S very well without massive genetic modification.

[KorvinStarmast]

For me, I enjoy all the flavors of fantasy including S&S. For D&D specifically, I don't think it does S&S very well without massive genetic modification.

You'd be surprised how well it works when all of the PCs are human. Picking the monsters to stay on that theme, which means that some amount of horror has to be included, enhances the S&S feel even in 5th edition.
If you play it like a Harry Potter movie, then no, it won't work.

[Mechalich]

The 'modern' author who probably hews closest to classic Sword & Sorcery tropes and themes is probably Joe Abercrombie, and the price of magic is very evident in his works, though because he seems to struggle with the temptation to turn grimdark up to eleven at all times, the price is almost always paid by other people, not wizards

[Psyren]

You'd be surprised how well it works when all of the PCs are human. Picking the monsters to stay on that theme, which means that some amount of horror has to be included, enhances the S&S feel even in 5th edition.

Wouldn't limiting class be more important than limiting race here?

If you play it like a Harry Potter movie, then no, it won't work.

I have no idea what this means.

[Saph]

The 'modern' author who probably hews closest to classic Sword & Sorcery tropes and themes is probably Joe Abercrombie, and the price of magic is very evident in his works, though because he seems to struggle with the temptation to turn grimdark up to eleven at all times, the price is almost always paid by other people, not wizards

True, forgot about that. I guess a lot of the "magic has a price, wizards tend to be evil, anything supernatural is probably out to get you" elements of S&S migrated into the grimdark/horror genres, while epic fantasy nowadays tends towards a much friendlier/fluffier interpretation of magic.

[warty goblin]

In a lot of modern fantasy, magic is mostly a vehicle for characters to self-actualize - hence the almost ubiquitous plotline abput how wizards are hated and feared but when one daring protagonist challenges the system she will release her true potential and also probably save the world from the problem that magic totally obviously fixes. It'd be rather against the grain to make your self-actualization metaphor also leave the character a physical or emotional wreck, at best the work would come off as a tragedy (also out of style) and at worst openly nihilistic (very out of style).

Dragonlance Legends, to pick an example of magic having a price that I also read recently, does not do magic as self actualization. Rather, Raistlin's magic is pretty clearly a tool to explore ambition and valuing personal power over people more than the people themselves. There's also a side order of magic as a metaphor for involuntary military conscription, but that's like D-level theme at most. It's therefore totally on point for Raistlin to be first physically broken, and then left alone howling into a dead void by his power. It's only self actualization in the sense that Raistlin finally has the ability to be the utter monster of a person he's always threatened to be, which the story can pull off because it's ballsy enough to be interested in the psychology of an awful person.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have no idea what this means.

The Harry Potter magic system is hot garbage.

[The Glyphstone]

Harry Potter doesnt have a magic system, it has freeform with gutter Latin.

[warty goblin]

Magic systems are overrated. And in the realm of S&S stories, almost completely irrelevant, because the Sorcery in Sword and Sorcery is much more about tone, menace and psychological impact than it is Joe Protagonist's ability to solve the plot. Jirel has a tunnel to something akin to Hell in her basement. Why? How can the... thing... that lives there give her the power to physically kill and spiritually torment somebody she kisses? How does that work?

Absolutely none of these questions matter at all. Black God's Kiss rocks.


(This is to say nothing of the later episode where Jirel gets yanked forwards in time by dark sorcery involving the colonization of Mars.)

[Dienekes]

In a lot of modern fantasy, magic is mostly a vehicle for characters to self-actualize - hence the almost ubiquitous plotline abput how wizards are hated and feared but when one daring protagonist challenges the system she will release her true potential and also probably save the world from the problem that magic totally obviously fixes. It'd be rather against the grain to make your self-actualization metaphor also leave the character a physical or emotional wreck, at best the work would come off as a tragedy (also out of style) and at worst openly nihilistic (very out of style).

Is it? I'll admit I don't read as much fantasy these days as I used to. But I understand darker tones and more nihilistic themes are rather growing in popularity.

I know Joe Abercrombie is considered pretty influential and he seems to take great pleasure in picking apart the concepts of the wise wizard mentor, the barbarian hero, the true king, the concept of redemption itself, and of course lambasting the glories of history and the actions states and nations take in war and to get advantage on each other.

[Mechalich]

Is it? I'll admit I don't read as much fantasy these days as I used to. But I understand darker tones and more nihilistic themes are rather growing in popularity.

I'm not sure that such things are growing in popularity. I think instead there's two things that happened.

First, sometime in the 1990s it became totally acceptable to publish mass market New York Times bestselling works of fantasy literature that were stunningly hyperviolent. A Game of Thrones, first published in 1996, is a nice benchmark there. Many of these works, including ASOIAF, but also Abercrombie's First Law, the Malazan Book of the Fallen (hisses angrily), and others were very successful, which meant that hyperviolence has become normalized within the world of fantasy publishing. And while hyperviolence doesn't necessarily mandate crushingly dark themes overall and in my opinion actually makes doing dark themes harder because it far too easily slips into hyperbolic grimdark parody, it's not exactly going to show up alongside sunshine and rainbows. Second, and related to the first, a combination of changing cultural mores and bad scholarship have led to a belief that life in pre-industrial times truly was some kind of grimdark hellscape and that if an author isn't presenting their world as a blood-soaked mess then they aren't taking it seriously. Once again A Game of Thrones is a nice benchmark, maybe even a trendsetter. This accusation has gained significant power because there is now, in a way there really wasn't until fairly recently, a massive market for not-even-the-least-bit-serious fantasy and 'go dark' seems to be a natural reaction throughout the arts to try to prove one is serious business for some reason. Personally I think this fails more often than not, but it does seem to be a thing that happens.

[ecarden]

I'm not sure that such things are growing in popularity. I think instead there's two things that happened.

First, sometime in the 1990s it became totally acceptable to publish mass market New York Times bestselling works of fantasy literature that were stunningly hyperviolent. A Game of Thrones, first published in 1996, is a nice benchmark there. Many of these works, including ASOIAF, but also Abercrombie's First Law, the Malazan Book of the Fallen (hisses angrily), and others were very successful, which meant that hyperviolence has become normalized within the world of fantasy publishing. And while hyperviolence doesn't necessarily mandate crushingly dark themes overall and in my opinion actually makes doing dark themes harder because it far too easily slips into hyperbolic grimdark parody, it's not exactly going to show up alongside sunshine and rainbows. Second, and related to the first, a combination of changing cultural mores and bad scholarship have led to a belief that life in pre-industrial times truly was some kind of grimdark hellscape and that if an author isn't presenting their world as a blood-soaked mess then they aren't taking it seriously. Once again A Game of Thrones is a nice benchmark, maybe even a trendsetter. This accusation has gained significant power because there is now, in a way there really wasn't until fairly recently, a massive market for not-even-the-least-bit-serious fantasy and 'go dark' seems to be a natural reaction throughout the arts to try to prove one is serious business for some reason. Personally I think this fails more often than not, but it does seem to be a thing that happens.

I think this is true and it pushed a lot of the 'non-grimdark fantasy' into the YA realm, which tends to default towards actualization, coming-of-age themes, and oppressed, but 'special' protagonists.

[Bohandas]

Second, and related to the first, a combination of changing cultural mores and bad scholarship have led to a belief that life in pre-industrial times truly was some kind of grimdark hellscape

Not just pre-industrial times. By today's standards even most of the 20th century was a grimdark hellscape

True, forgot about that. I guess a lot of the "magic has a price, wizards tend to be evil, anything supernatural is probably out to get you" elements of S&S migrated into the grimdark/horror genres, while epic fantasy nowadays tends towards a much friendlier/fluffier interpretation of magic.

In a lot of modern fantasy, magic is mostly a vehicle for characters to self-actualize - hence the almost ubiquitous plotline abput how wizards are hated and feared but when one daring protagonist challenges the system she will release her true potential and also probably save the world from the problem that magic totally obviously fixes. It'd be rather against the grain to make your self-actualization metaphor also leave the character a physical or emotional wreck, at best the work would come off as a tragedy (also out of style) and at worst openly nihilistic (very out of style).

Also modern society has less pf a meathead bent to it than in previous eras, as well as less pointless fear of the unknown and unusual, I think that affects things too.

[Mechalich]

I think this is true and it pushed a lot of the 'non-grimdark fantasy' into the YA realm, which tends to default towards actualization, coming-of-age themes, and oppressed, but 'special' protagonists.

I actually think it might be the reverse. That the proliferation of YA, and YA-adjacent stuff like a lot of the paranormal romance genre - which might not be officially YA by however publishers determine such things but is still heavily marketed towards female teens - has pushed some authors to seek ways to offer an obvious sign that 'this story is for adults.'

[Psyren]

The Harry Potter magic system is hot garbage.

No argument here but I don't see what this has to do with anything I said; I didn't mention Harry Potter at all

I actually think it might be the reverse. That the proliferation of YA, and YA-adjacent stuff like a lot of the paranormal romance genre - which might not be officially YA by however publishers determine such things but is still heavily marketed towards female teens - has pushed some authors to seek ways to offer an obvious sign that 'this story is for adults.'

It's interesting because you don't really need S&S theming to make a grimdark magic setting. Magicians for example is fairly high-magic urban fantasy, including things like plane hopping and time loops, and magic is very accessible to/used liberally by the main cast - yet every problem they try and solve with magic typically leads to more problems.

[Saintheart]

Dragonlance Legends, to pick an example of magic having a price that I also read recently, does not do magic as self actualization. Rather, Raistlin's magic is pretty clearly a tool to explore ambition and valuing personal power over people more than the people themselves. There's also a side order of magic as a metaphor for involuntary military conscription, but that's like D-level theme at most. It's therefore totally on point for Raistlin to be first physically broken, and then left alone howling into a dead void by his power. It's only self actualization in the sense that Raistlin finally has the ability to be the utter monster of a person he's always threatened to be, which the story can pull off because it's ballsy enough to be interested in the psychology of an awful person.

Calling Raistlin's progress an exercise in self-actualisation is a great summary, since

Spoiler: Spoilers for thirty year old novels

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time travel is a thing and without Tasselhoff's intervention, Raistlin would have literally been a stable time loop - Raistlin cheats and takes Fistandantilus's aid during the Test, thus allowing him to become a Wizard; Raistlin comes back to Istar, and literally overtakes Fistandantilus, who then dies at Zhaman, but who sticks around as spooky ghost to then offer his help to young Raistlin during the Test.

[KorvinStarmast]

No argument here but I don't see what this has to do with anything I said; I didn't mention Harry Potter at all

Bringing it into a discussion of the Swords and Sorcery genre is a mistake, since Rowling wrote teen angst and puberty stories.

[Psyren]

Bringing it into a discussion of the Swords and Sorcery genre is a mistake, since Rowling wrote teen angst and puberty stories.

,,,A mistake on your part? Again, I didn't mention it at all.

[Corvus]

Magic is far too common and easy to use in d&d to really be sword and sorcery as it was originally written. At least in standard d&d. Some settings, like Dark Sun, did play around with it. Back in 3e, there was an alternative rule set, Iron Heroes, that was pure sword and sorcery. Had balance issues and was abandoned too early, but it certainly captured the feeling of s&s.

[runeghost]

The 'modern' author who probably hews closest to classic Sword & Sorcery tropes and themes is probably Joe Abercrombie, and the price of magic is very evident in his works, though because he seems to struggle with the temptation to turn grimdark up to eleven at all times, the price is almost always paid by other people, not wizards

The (recently completed) web serial A Practical Guide to Evil has some classic sword and sorcery elements, along with a hefty dose of meta. Magic has both real world costs, particularly as it becomes more powerful, and narrative costs as well. (Building the magical Superweapon of Doom is basically saying "I dare you" to the Universe.)

[warty goblin]

The (recently completed) web serial A Practical Guide to Evil has some classic sword and sorcery elements, along with a hefty dose of meta. Magic has both real world costs, particularly as it becomes more powerful, and narrative costs as well. (Building the magical Superweapon of Doom is basically saying "I dare you" to the Universe.)

Sword and Sorcery is more than just magic having a cost though. I think the sense of scale and tone is far more important. The protagonist might be dangerous, but the universe is large and strange and indifferent and exceeds their (and the reader's) understanding.