UA bard

[stoutstien]

I figured we should probably break this up and discuss it because there's so much going on in this trying to cover it all in a single threat is just going to be Trainwreck. The first thing of note in this is the bar if you disregard the little excerpt about them basically saying that it's all subject to change and values are placeholders. Not super useful for play test feedback in my opinion but whatever.

Bards -buckle up because this one's a wild ride. I'm not going to go into the nitty gritty details of the individual features because they've been posted elsewhere and they're available but I am going to highlight some interesting points of interest.
At level one it looks like a reformatting of the usual proficiencies and abilities until you start critically dissecting it. Bardic inspiration is the whole new animals. Right off the bat it's keying off your reaction which overall I think is a good idea because bards inherently don't have much use for it yet thematically it makes sense that they would be quick-witted. We'll chalk that up into the potentially a good idea category. Then you get to the effects themselves. the first one is only applicable on a failed dc20 test which means they are either completely forgetting about or moving away from open-ended contest where there isn't a set pass or fail(initiative). It also notably usable for an ally you can see or hear which could be a cool option for certain party concepts that rely on sight blockage. The healing option is rather lackluster but it's there and could potentially keep somebody from death seeing how it actually heals after the damage received so you can yo-yo.
Then you look at the number of uses you have per long rest and of course they base it on proficiency bonus. If they're going to do that they might as well just make it recovered on a short rest right off the bat because that's a long slog until you have either a high enough proficiency bonus or quicker recovery. At least do the psi die approach and give them one back on a short rest.
Then we get to the spell casting. So they're going to use the arcane spell list but they're going to be limited to three schools. Okay so they homogenizing the spell list and then turn around and try to get it based on schools is not the worst approach ever but it does seem a little complicated. I don't see how it's any more intuitive than just having a Bard spell list. Oh yeah now they're prepared casters and can switch out their spells everyday and for some reason it decided the number of spells is equal to the number of spell slots you have. This is also unnecessarily confusing. Is this easier than just having a column for spells known/prepared count?
The spell schools look restrictive until you go a little bit further in the UA and realize a lot of the spells have been shifted around so they are not losing that much. In typical wizard fashion it looks like they started with a good idea and the execution was slap dash.

Lv 2 they get some expertise and some spells automatically prepared. See my observations above on the overall wording but it's a solid list to have available.

From there the rest of the class is similar enough to not be worth mentioning other than the fact the features are all moved back or forward a little to meet in the middle. Magic secrets is also a little confusing in that you need to pick your free picks form the same list but don't need to be from the restricted schools. Can also switch spells everyday as long as you stay within those parameters. Oh the capstone allows you to recover two dice if you don't have any instead of one...


Subclass lore- oddly restricted skill picks right off the bat. No idea why this is a thing. Cutting word is also reworded to work only on successful tests. Then later on they grant allies advantage on BI rolls. Odd wording so healing option might not actually work because you are rolling it. Then they get some minor auto damage on cutting word and then perless skill now only works on failed tests.

Overall I actually like some of the ideas they have here it's just really badly executed. I'm reserving judgment on the actual output of the classes until I see all of them because I think they're going to trend damage downward.

I give it a 5 out of 10 as written.

[lall]

The restricted skill picks is odd/lame.

[follacchioso]

I think the biggest change is the ability to prepare Spells that Bards, which is huge compared to 5E.

The total number of spells prepared is actually the same (e.g. 22 at lv 20), but the possibility to change them on a long rest is a big deal. I have played a few bards in 5E, including a high-level character, and the restriction on the number of spells known always felt like a choke point.

On another note, I like the new Bardic Inspirations, and I think they make bards less MAD, especially for Swords/Valor bards. This UA allows to create Bards that have a relatively low CHA, and focus on STR/DEX and CON, which are strongly needed for gish characters. My Swords Bard only had 15 CHA for most of his career, so he could only use a couple of Flourishes per combat. The UA does not contain rules for Valor and Swords Bards but I guess they will be similar. There are currently few ways to create a Sword Bards with the Standard Array, unless you multiclass with Hexblade.

[Pildion]

Did I miss them or have Bards now LOST their 18th level magical secrets and LORE bard lost its 6th level magical secrets, you know, the whole POINT of going lore bard...

Or Am I blind, could be blind.

[nickl_2000]

My biggest overall problem with Bard is using Bardic Inspiration to heal as a reaction to someone taking damage, then they get bards as a level 2 spell. Bards seem like they are now the king of yoyo healing.

[Amnestic]

Does the bardic inspiration still require hearing? If so, would the healing even work if you were dropped to 0 and made unconscious? I guess you're not deafened but still feels weird.

[stoutstien]

Does the bardic inspiration still require hearing? If so, would the healing even work if you were dropped to 0 and made unconscious? I guess you're not deafened but still feels weird.

Sight or hearing now and the healing option is the bard rolling (one reason the lore reroll doesn't work raw) anyways.

[Abracadangit]

Regarding the restricted skills for the Lore Bard, I think the idea is by limiting the skill choices to knowledge skills, they're making the Lore Bard feel more "loremastery." I remember the first time I saw the 5e PHB and read the Lore Bard, and was like "The only thing that feels loremastery is Additional Magical Secrets, what does any of the rest of it have to do with being a loremaster. I like the sub, but name it something else."

Of course, I eventually Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Lore Bard, and with the "If you already have these, get any skill you want" exception, they're kind of circumventing it again, but I think the "knowledge skills = lore" is what they were going for. Not defending their decision, just guessing why they would have made it.

[stoutstien]

Regarding the restricted skills for the Lore Bard, I think the idea is by limiting the skill choices to knowledge skills, they're making the Lore Bard feel more "loremastery." I remember the first time I saw the 5e PHB and read the Lore Bard, and was like "The only thing that feels loremastery is Additional Magical Secrets, what does any of the rest of it have to do with being a loremaster. I like the sub, but name it something else."

Of course, I eventually Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Lore Bard, and with the "If you already have these, get any skill you want" exception, they're kind of circumventing it again, but I think the "knowledge skills = lore" is what they were going for. Not defending their decision, just guessing why they would have made it.

There's definitely better ways of going about it. They even have all these new action options they could play with. Maybe advantage on the study action x amount of time today or what not.

[Abracadangit]

There's definitely better ways of going about it. They even have all these new action options they could play with. Maybe advantage on the study action x amount of time today or what not.

Oh, totally. Taking the one sub that was basically the Bard 2.0 and restricting your skill choices with it is gonna be one of the most unpopular changes by a country mile, by clamping down on the versatility that allowed for so many directions before. I'll be shocked if it doesn't get walked back via feedback.

[Mastikator]

Here are my thoughts.

--- The base class

Bardic Inspiration
Bardic inspiration now works off reaction rather than bonus action. This is a huge improvement IMO because it gives control to the bard when BI is used, no more will people get BI and forget and let it run out. Amazing change, I love it.
Bardic inspiration dice is now equal to your proficiency bonus, this seems like a nerf, and it is. BUT after giving it some though I actually like this, it means that bards have less of a massive incentive to max out their charisma ASAP. It means that bards won't feel utterly punished for not taking +2 charisma at level 4 and 8, they can take feats and still get the same amount of BI. Overall this change initially feels bad but leads to more relaxed character design which I like. I like this change.
The added ability to heal is a nice addition, it does somewhat push the bard into the healer role by making forced to be on their list.

Skill proficiency
Works exactly as before but gives default options that can be helpful to newbies. I like.

Expertise
Works the same as before. You also get more at level 9.

Songs of restoration
Much better than song of restoration which nobody uses.

Spell casting
Now prepared list, huge improvement IMO. I love it.
Also gives default choices, however I'm not happy with the choices. However since it's optional it's only really slightly hurting noobs, and since you can always replace on a long rest it's fine.

Jack of all trades
Comes at level 5 rather than level 2, but otherwise is fine IMO.

Font of Bardic Inspiration
Comes at level 7 rather than level 5. However not expending it when you roll a 1 is a nice addition and makes it feel not wasted. The higher level you are the less likely it is though since your BI dice gets bigger.

Magical secrets
This again is huge, you pick arcane, divine or primal and then have two extra spells prepared from those lists. Which you can change every long rest. This is a massive power boost IMO since you can tailor it for the day's adventure.
On level 15 you get to choose again and pick two more spells, this means you could pick both divine and primal and almost have every spell available to you.

Superior bardic inspiration
Every initiative you get 2 BI dice, this doesn't mention that you must have less than 2 to start with. Which makes this farmable and is a bad thing. Probably an oversight, it should limit it to "if you have 3 or less" or something like that at least.

Overall I think this is a huge improvement, it gives control to the bard when he uses BI, it relaxes his charisma pressure and it doesn't feel all too bad when you roll a 1 with it. The spell casting is massively stronger since you're no longer stuck with bad spells if you picked a spell that didn't work out the way you wanted, and you can tailor your spells for the day.

The newbie options are not amazing, but they are purely optional and should not have any effect on any player with a pinch of game mastery.


--- lore bard

Bonus proficiencies
They now force you to take lore related skills, and let you pick others only if you already have them. This is a straight nerf, but nerfs aren't necessarily a bad thing IMO, in fact I like that lore bards now are pushed into the "knowing stuff" role.

Cutting words
Seems to work the same way it did before.

Cunning inspiration
This makes your BI stronger, but less likely to be retained when you roll a 1, OTOH do you actually want to roll 1s? Or would you rather roll high. It's a decent new feature.

Improved cutting words
This deals a bit of psychic damage when you use cutting words, which pushes you away from the support role and closer to the debuffer role. At level 10 you'd roll 2d10, pick higher number, deal that amount in damage and also reduce enemy D20 test with same amount, possibly (probably) causing them to fail when they otherwise would've succeeded.

Peerless skill
Seems to work the same way it did before.

Overall I think this is an improvement on the 2014 PHB lore bard.

Edit-

I also like that they're normalizing starting equipment value, "here are some default stuff" or take 100 gold and spend it however you like. That is a good thing.

[follacchioso]

Does the bardic inspiration still require hearing? If so, would the healing even work if you were dropped to 0 and made unconscious? I guess you're not deafened but still feels weird.

Yes, the UA is a bit weird here. The target would fall prone and unconscious when they drop to 0 hit points, but they would immediately be healed and return to consciousness. They would still be prone and lose any concentration and other effects.

On the other hand, a creature could be hit for 1 point of damage, then healed for more than that. You could potentially hit your friends with unarmed attacks and use your reactions to heal them. That would be quite appropriate for a bard.

[Pildion]

--- lore bard

Bonus proficiencies
They now force you to take lore related skills, and let you pick others only if you already have them. This is a straight nerf, but nerfs aren't necessarily a bad thing IMO, in fact I like that lore bards now are pushed into the "knowing stuff" role.

Cutting words
Seems to work the same way it did before.

Cunning inspiration
This makes your BI stronger, but less likely to be retained when you roll a 1, OTOH do you actually want to roll 1s? Or would you rather roll high. It's a decent new feature.

Improved cutting words
This deals a bit of psychic damage when you use cutting words, which pushes you away from the support role and closer to the debuffer role. At level 10 you'd roll 2d10, pick higher number, deal that amount in damage and also reduce enemy D20 test with same amount, possibly (probably) causing them to fail when they otherwise would've succeeded.

Peerless skill
Seems to work the same way it did before.

Overall I think this is an improvement on the 2014 PHB lore bard.

You honestly believe that this Lore Bard is an improvement? Losing 6th level Magical Secrets has got to be the biggest nerf I've ever heard of. It was the whole point of going Lore Bard subclass.

[Mastikator]

You honestly believe that this Lore Bard is an improvement? Losing 6th level Magical Secrets has got to be the biggest nerf I've ever heard of. It was the whole point of going Lore Bard subclass.

Maybe but pilfering paladin and ranger spells before they get it always felt like lore bards were stepping on their feet. A good nerf is an improvement IMO

[Amnestic]

Maybe but pilfering paladin and ranger spells before they get it always felt like lore bards were stepping on their feet. A good nerf is an improvement IMO

Agreed with this - bard stealing class spells before that class could get them was bad.

[Pildion]

Maybe but pilfering paladin and ranger spells before they get it always felt like lore bards were stepping on their feet. A good nerf is an improvement IMO

Well, I get that, your not wrong. This seams like a bad way to fix it though, as it stands now I would NEVER play this lore bard over any of the other Bard Subclasses. Which honestly just makes me terrified to see what they are going to do to them =(

[Stangler]

The way I try and think about these changes is by creating a couple builds at various levels and look at my options. I think using this method the bard looks really fun to me. The biggest drawback is definitely delaying FoI (BI should always be a short rest ability IMO).

The key improvements are in the feats at level 1 and 4 that offer really interesting customization options that will have a bigger impact on the way the bard plays than a lot of the other changes. The changes to BI improve the way the class plays at the table and makes the bard feel more connected to the impact of their ability. The flexibility in spell casting really matters. The class didn't need a lot of changes but the changes that are there allow just enough customization options for a player to tweak the class to fit their needs.

Looking ahead I only see things getting better for the bard as they rework spells, feats, and skills more.

[Person_Man]

I wish they would have eliminated Magical Secrets, and moved towards more specific class based schools of magic with every spellcasting class having at least one unique list. Knowing that a Bard can poach the best half-caster spells limits what you can give then. The ability to prepare spells, while keeping magical secrets, is a huge buff for Bards.

[Pooky the Imp]

Seems strange that Lore Bards can't pick Medicine, Survival or Religion as bonus skills.

I guess neither of those have anything to do with knowledge or lore?

[diplomancer]

First of all, great idea splitting from the original thread. The discussion is simply too wide to be under one thread.

So I'll give out my impressions on the new Bard. My general impression is that they've been nerfed. Now, they were really powerful before, so maybe they should be nerfed? Let's go feature by feature:

Base Class:
-Bardic Inspiration- nerfed. I don't think being a reaction is actually an improvement over being a bonus action. As we will see later with Cutting Words, Lore Bards at least are already reaction heavy. I don't like the scaling with proficiency in general, but it is what it is, and that's the new game design. I liked both the suggestions of number of uses being "half of the inspiration die", so starting at 3 and working up to 6, and also the suggestion of getting one back on a short rest, specially now that Font of Inspiration has been moved to 7th level. Healing option is good and powerful, maybe enough to balance the other nerfs?
-Skill Proficiency: as before, suggestions are OK, good for newbies.
-Weapon Proficiency: Nerf, but not a severe one. Bards who will be more martial will get the proficiencies they need, Bards who are less martial can still get by with a short sword instead of a rapier for the rare ocasions someone is in their face in early levels
-Spellcasting: Biggest nerf. Bards lost MANY good spells; Bane, Heat Metal, Fairy Fire, Forcecage, Banishment, Dimension Door, Plant Growth, Teleport, Plane Shift, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Planar Binding (maybe change this one to Enchantment?), etc. Heck, they even lost their one exclusive (in Core) spell, Power Word Heal! And I don't think that what they got in return is as good as all the spells they lost. Fly and Haste are nice, but when you're competing with Hypnotic Pattern, a small consolation for losing those other spells I've mentioned. They also get Simulacrum, ; I've never seen it in play and know in theory it's very powerful, but I'm not sure losing both Forcecage and Teleport are worth it. Getting Hex at least is good, specially for the Bards that get extra attack.
Yes, being prepared is definitely a buff, but I think would lead some players, like me, to waste a LOT of time before sessions preparing spells. Even worse for Magical Secrets, but I'll address that in its proper place.
-Expertise: as before
-Songs of Rest- it's basically a patch. Since they made Bards Arcane only, they kinda had to give them access to some healing spells, or heads would roll. Though getting extra spells known without counting against preparation is always nice, it's a shame they had to sacrifice a class feature for that. Possibly still a buff, as old Song of Rest is almost a ribbon, specially at later levels.
- Jack of All Trades- has been nerfed (as it now only works on "skill checks") AND comes online later. I'd rather they kept it at 2, no real reason not to. Even if they want to move Font of Inspiration up, there's no need to give out class features to Full Casters at odd levels, specially not at 5th level.
- Font of Bardic Inspiration: slight buff, but comes online later. I'm ok with that, but would rather they were a bit more generous with it, as outlined in my comments about BI.
-Magical Secrets: moved slightly later, and given a massive buff. So massive that it probably compensates for the nerf to the spell list I've mentioned earlier., at least for the games that go that high. Still, though you can change it when you want to, having to pick only two spells from a massive list every Long Rest sounds exhausting!
- Superior Bardic Inspiration- buff, but meh. Still uninspiring (see what I did there?)

Now to the Lore Bard-

-Bonus Proficiencies- probably my least favourite thing in the whole UA. I dislike pigeonholing like this, and I'm a guy who likes to dip Knowledge Cleric with a Lore Bard to make sure that I'll be good at the lore skills. If they absolutely MUST have at least some Lore, make it one skill only, and give free choice of the two other skills.
-Cutting Words- 2 nerfs and a buff. Buff: it works against Charm-immune creatures, or creatures that can't hear you; this is actually quite massive. Nerf 1: it only works against "successful" ability checks, so no Cutting Words on Initiative. Nerf 2: Even stronger competition with regular Bardic Inspiration; before, they were competing for the resource. Now they are also competing for the Action Economy.
-Cunning Inspiration- alright as is, but a very poor substitute for Additional Magical Secrets. Just let Lore Bards pick two spell from any list that they can't change and be done with it!
- Improved Cutting Words- nice
- Peerless Skill- slight buff for those rare situations when you fail a check even with Peerless Skill, and makes it almost a must-use.

[Rukelnikov]

I've Played a Lore Bard 6 / Bahamut(homebrew) Cleric 8, losing Magical Secrets at 6 definitely hurts at that level, however, the new kind of MS, I think is gonna be MUCH better, if you actually get to play to the levels where they get them. I consider it a buff to Magical Secrets, not a nerf.

[KorvinStarmast]

|Bardic inspiration is the whole new animals. Right off the bat it's keying off your reaction

Probably a wash.

The first one is only applicable on a failed dc20 test which means they are either completely forgetting about or moving away from open-ended contest where there isn't a set pass or fail(initiative).

Edge case. But a good point for those that used it that way.

It also notably usable for an ally you can see or hear which could be a cool option for certain party concepts that rely on sight blockage.

Yes, a nice tweak.

The healing option is rather lackluster but it's there and could potentially keep somebody from death seeing how it actually heals after the damage received so you can yo-yo.

I disagree. It's a variation on the celestial warlock's healing feature from level 1; and it saves a spell slot (you don't have to burn a healing word slot). It's 'good enough'.
... but they're going to be limited to three schools. [/QUOTE] No, four: Divination, Enchantment, Illusion, or Transmutation.

In typical wizard fashion it looks like they started with a good idea and the execution was slap dash.

No argument there.

From there the rest of the class is similar enough to no be worth mentioning other than the fact the features are all moved back or forward a little to meet in the middle.

Your word salad on Cutting Words was unclear, so no comment.

The problem of only using BI on a failure is that it's even more meta than the original one. The original was very flexible in terms of the ally getting to select what it is used for when the time came to use it. I think that's not good, in general, but I'd have to see this in play for a while to see what the actual impact is at the table.

The restricted skill picks is odd/lame.

IMO it's a major negative. There was no reason to restrict this. (Unless it's thematic?)

Songs of restoration
Much better than song of restoration which nobody uses.

Nope. Song of rest has been used by every bard at every table I have played at that has/had a bard.

Improved cutting words
This deals a bit of psychic damage when you use cutting words, which pushes you away from the support role and closer to the debuffer role. At level 10 you'd roll 2d10, pick higher number, deal that amount in damage and also reduce enemy D20 test with same amount, possibly (probably) causing them to fail when they otherwise would've succeeded.

It's a bit clunky, but I'd like to see this in play to see if I like it or not.

Overall I think this is an improvement on the 2014 PHB lore bard.

I do not.

I also like that they're normalizing starting equipment value, "here are some default stuff" or take 100 gold and spend it however you like. That is a good thing.

Yes, easier for noobs.

You honestly believe that this Lore Bard is an improvement? Losing 6th level Magical Secrets has got to be the biggest nerf I've ever heard of. It was the whole point of going Lore Bard subclass.

+1.

Agreed with this - bard stealing class spells before that class could get them was bad.

No it wasn't. I don't get this attitude. There are 12 classes and usually 4 or 5 players in a party.

Seems strange that Lore Bards can't pick Medicine, Survival or Religion as bonus skills.
I guess neither of those have anything to do with knowledge or lore?

You read my mind.

Since they prepare daily, assuming they choose Arcane, beginning at level 17 they can select Wish as one of their two Arcane spells on any given day.

Hmm, not as bad of a restriction as I was thinking that it was.

[diplomancer]

You missed something important: Bards no longer get level 9 Magic Secrets, ever.

No. They lost 2 magical secrets, as now they only have 4, but after they choose a list, they get to pick any two spells from that list of a level that they can cast. It's a tougher choice than it seems. I feel the Divine list is the weaker one (specially since Bards already get a few important healing spells always prepared); but on the other hand, Find Steed...

[Kenny_Snoggins]

First of all, great idea splitting from the original thread. The discussion is simply too wide to be under one thread.

So I'll give out my impressions on the new Bard. My general impression is that they've been nerfed. Now, they were really powerful before, so maybe they should be nerfed? Let's go feature by feature:

Base Class:
-Bardic Inspiration- nerfed. I don't think being a reaction is actually an improvement over being a bonus action. As we will see later with Cutting Words, Lore Bards at least are already reaction heavy. I don't like the scaling with proficiency in general, but it is what it is, and that's the new game design. I liked both the suggestions of number of uses being "half of the inspiration die", so starting at 3 and working up to 6, and also the suggestion of getting one back on a short rest, specially now that Font of Inspiration has been moved to 7th level. Healing option is good and powerful, maybe enough to balance the other nerfs?
-Spellcasting: Biggest nerf. Bards lost MANY good spells; Bane, Heat Metal, Fairy Fire, Forcecage, Banishment, Dimension Door, Plant Growth, Teleport, Plane Shift, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Planar Binding (maybe change this one to Enchantment?), etc. Heck, they even lost their one exclusive (in Core) spell, Power Word Heal! And I don't think that what they got in return is as good as all the spells they lost. Fly and Haste are nice, but when you're competing with Hypnotic Pattern, a small consolation for losing those other spells I've mentioned. They also get Simulacrum, ; I've never seen it in play and know in theory it's very powerful, but I'm not sure losing both Forcecage and Teleport are worth it. Getting Hex at least.
Yes, being prepared is definitely a buff, but I think would lead some players, like me, to waste a LOT of time before sessions preparing spells. Even worse for Magical Secrets, but I'll address that in its proper place.
-Expertise: as before
- Font of Bardic Inspiration: slight buff, but comes online later. I'm ok with that, but would rather they were a bit more generous with it, as outlined in my comments about BI.

-Magical Secrets: moved slightly later, and given a massive buff. So massive that it probably compensates for the nerf to the spell list I've mentioned earlier., at least for the games that go that high. Still, though you can change it when you want to, having to pick only two spells from a massive list every Long Rest sounds exhausting!
Now to the Lore Bard-

Agree on the move to a reaction being a nerf to BI. I think it's actually quite a severe one. No more inspiring before you go into a combat to keep your bonus action free, and more critically no ability to combine BI with your reaction (usually silvery barbs + unsettling or cutting words, depending on subclass) to absolutely nuke an enemy die roll. Now, with it as a reaction, a wizard is literally better at functional BI effects than a bard. Plus-- why have high charisma when it isn't tied to your primary feature? Getting it to refresh on a short rest only at level 7 is brutal. Two turns after fighters are getting multiattack and wizards are throwing fireballs? Why? BI was one of the least overpowered parts of being a bard. Thats months of campaigning before you can use your signature ability freely for the average group. Gross.

I get what they were trying to do with the expert class, Rogues get ALL the skills, Artificers will get ALL the tool proficiencies, and Bards eventually get ALL the magic. But magical secrets was more powerful in 5e, because you could steal spells that were essentially class features, not because you were a crappier wizard. Also as you point out, the major power spells native to the bard list are now firewalled away behind different schools until again, well after most campaigns have finished.

I don't get the BI nerfs at all-- bards are overtuned in 5e mostly due to the existence of the hexblade dip and it's synergy with find greater steed. BI was never really the problem.

Recommended changes-- The new 'musician' feat and old 'inspiring leader' feat should just be straight up bard abilities at some level. Revert BI back to 5e rules and progression, it was fine. If they HAVE to move BI to prof bonus instead of charisma (dumb idea) then getting musician early helps shore that up.

Give the bards a theme and roll in the party. Right now their combat utility after losing all their good combat spells, and their ability to summon a flying monstrous mount, is nil. The best party role / theme for the bard is the Debuff machine, not the buff machine. The buff machine niche is already covered by Paladins Clerics etc. But no class is built around debuffing enemies as their fundamental combat role although you can see they played around with the idea in 5e with Vicious Mockery and Cutting / Unsettling words. A Mind-spike, Unsettling words, Silvery barbs Eloquence bard was super fun to play in conjunction with other spell casters or save-throw-forcing mechanics, setting up cool teamwork moments as you wore down legendary resistances and then the bard nuked saves prior to the wizard unleashing something awful. If they don't want to go that way with it (which I found fun, it gave you a lot of buttons to press in combat), just make it an aura like a paladin, where if they can see and hear you, they suffer some deduction to AC or Saves or their rolls, whatever.

Jack of all trades has always been weird in that it's really only relevant for stuff that doesn't make sense given what they are trying to depict, IE iniative and counterspell etc. It should be a list like invocations-- things that you have picked up over your past, and could wholesale replace magical secrets (more on what they should do with that later). Maybe you can pick up an invocation that gives you a 1/4 CL sneak attack. Wild shape at 1/2 the efficiency of a druid. Get a fighting style and medium armor and shield proficiency. Stealing class features IMO wasn't a bug: it was part of what made a bard unique and customizable. Lean into that. Alternatively, just give them fighter-style feat progression, or reduce the amount of downtime it takes for them to learn a new skill or language etc by 3/4, so they are picking up a new one pretty often.

For magic secrets, as I mentioned I think it could be rolled into jack of all trades if that was a powerful feature to steal class abilities at a reduced effectiveness from the base class. The idea of a bard just knowing random magical spells is sort of strange and doesn't really fit thematically. If they want to tie that to the chords of creation or them having some connection to all magic through music, then okay, just give them access to ALL the spell classes, BUT they have to use the base classes modifier to cast. So you could cast fireball or whatever, but you're going to suck at it compared to a real arcane blaster. I would prefer they give them a list of mini-stolen class features, but that would be the way to go if they really want to tie Bards as these gregarious magical generalists, which I don't like in general.

[Kane0]

Inspiration: Uses a reaction now, interesting. Adding to a test is good and expected, healing is potentially the Healing Word problem but worse. Uses Prof rather than Cha now, as expected.
Inspiration is now generally stronger and more efficient at the cost of happening less often.

Spellcasting: Arcane list but only half of the schools. This negates the benefit of having the list in the first place, since you have to check if your spell selections are valid. We are back to preparing spells split by level rather than a number you can distribute as you please, and I don’t like that. Replacing a spell with a long rest is expected after Tasha’s.
Haven't looked over the actual list of spells yet, i'm assuming some gained and some lost for an overall negligible change in loadout.

Songs of Restoration: No longer an actual feature, now just ‘get X spells’. Thumbs down, doubly so if this becomes a trend (and I suspect it will). Dunks on short rests.

Jack of All Trades: Closed the gap of it applying to ability checks that arent skills, which I think was unintended

Countercharm: Completely gone, which I suppose makes sense as in its prior form it wasn’t worth the action and now Bardic Inspiration is taking up your reactions. Sad to see it go instead of being improved.

Font of Inspiration: Takes an extra two levels which sucks mightily. But hey, short rests are still a thing I suppose

Magical Secrets: Slight restriction to spells from one list, but otherwise the same

Superior Bardic Inspiration: Yep, that’s a capstone. Sucks if you have only 1 Inspiration at Initiative.

Epic Boon: They're all pretty lacklustre, with a few 'standouts' that compete with level 1 feats.

Subclass: It appears there is a standard pattern of 3, 6, 10 and 14 now, that’s good.


Lore Bard:
Bonus Profs: as expected
Cutting words: as expected
Cunning Inspiration: advantage on the inspiration die, nice
Improved cutting words: a bit of damage as a rider, not bad but not great
Peerless skill: Inspire yourself for ability checks, and if you fail it isn’t wasted. Again not bad, waiting to compare with the Rogue

Overall, Bard is noticeably less appealing but hardly driven into the ground. I would have preferred more inspiration and less spellcasting, but WotC are married to their spells so that was a vain hope really.

[Mastikator]

Well, I get that, your not wrong. This seams like a bad way to fix it though, as it stands now I would NEVER play this lore bard over any of the other Bard Subclasses. Which honestly just makes me terrified to see what they are going to do to them =(

TBH I consider the lore bard with the UA races and UA backgrounds slightly stronger than the 2014 PHB races and lore bard. I'd pick a UA race + UA lore bard over a half elf lore bard any day of the week. The fact that I can precisely control my BI and get a 1st level feat and re-spec my spells is just so much better than, oh aura of vitality or find greater steed.

[Hael]

I can see why they’ve done some of these things. The bard was one of the best classes in the game in 5.0, and if I was optimizing things and needed skills, i’d pretty much never consider Rogue or Ranger in a well built party.

The move to Vancian casting is controversial, but I happen to prefer the system, so that gets a thumbs up from me. The problem is that it further overpowers them (along with the greater spell choice). Something had to give, and well that directly leads to the bardic inspiration nerfs, the skill choice nerf, the loss of song of rest/countercharm and the +initiative/counterspell stuff from jack of all trades.

The problem here is that they’re going to feel pretty caster heavy compared to what they used too. The fact that they only get a few uses of bardic inspiration until lvl 7 is going to feel terrible.

The fact that they’re going to get altogether too many bardic inspirations later (making the capstone completely useless) is yet another design SNAFU.

And of course the unfortunate lore bard nerf really sucks. That was one of the best designed subclasses in the game, and the new version feels rather dull by comparison.

I think they’re going to have to do a full rework on this, b/c its a step in the wrong direction IMO. A very well designed class in 5.0 has become much less thematic. Balance could have been achieved by limiting their spell slots or something like that.

[stoutstien]

It's not really vancian casting but it's closer which is why I find it confusingly written. Suppose you show this class to someone who has never played a TTRPG and asked them how it works. You'd probably get a bunch of different answers.

[Rukelnikov]

It's not really vancian casting but it's closer which is why I find it confusingly written.

I agree that it will likely lead to confusion. But I think I like it more this way, for Wizards at least, cause it reins in a bit of the casters powers, they'd remain extremely powerful in downtime, but less so during dungeon crawling.

OTOH I don't like that, presumably, there'll be no difference between how casters prepare spells. I do expect the Sorcerer and Warlock to be different though.

[Hael]

Theres definitely pros and cons to Vancian (lite) casting. I have a few reasons why I prefer it, most notably that sometimes you prepare a list of spells that is not applicable at all to your days activities, and are forced to make do. I kinda like that, as it throws some variety between sessions (rather than always having the right thing for the right job and getting bored b/c the game is too easy).

Being forced to make do (in between bouts of extreme power) was sort of the staple 2e experience for wizards, and its quite fun.

The other perk is that it doesn’t punish new players quite so hard when they pick the wrong spells.

I don’t think its going to simplify the game though (which is what they are shooting for).