One D&D: New Rogue Nerfed

[Person_Man]

So as we all know, the new playtest for “Expert” classes was released: https://media.dndbeyond.com/compendi...rt-Classes.pdf

Sneak attack is nerfed, limiting it to just your turn. (Removing the ability to Sneak Attack twice per round with an Opportunity Attack or Haste +Readied Action).

Thief subclass is nerfed, as Fast Hands can no longer Use an Object.

Rangers now get Expertise, giving you less of a reason to play a Rogue. (Though in fairness, this has been the case since Skill Expert was released in Tashas).

On the plus side Rogues get more/better high level class features, and they’re not just duplicating spells. Which is good! But are they worth waiting so long to get?

Thoughts?

[Scarytincan]

Also moved up how long it takes to get subclass features, which is very nice

[Psyren]

While the loss of the reaction sneak attack definitely hurts, Subtle Strikes looks to be a solid DPR boost. Assuming you weren't getting the reaction SA every round (which most rogues weren't), it might even be a net increase. In addition, the TWF changes mean melee rogues don't have to choose between attacking twice and getting Cunning Action (or Steady Aim, for those DMs that will allow Tashas optional features in 1DD.) And lastly, not needing to save your reaction for a potential second sneak attack means you can devote it to other things like Uncanny Dodge.

[BoutsofInsanity]

So as we all know, the new playtest for “Expert” classes was released: https://media.dndbeyond.com/compendi...rt-Classes.pdf

Sneak attack is nerfed, limiting it to just your turn. (Removing the ability to Sneak Attack twice per round with an Opportunity Attack or Haste +Readied Action).

Thief subclass is nerfed, as Fast Hands can no longer Use an Object.

Rangers now get Expertise, giving you less of a reason to play a Rogue. (Though in fairness, this has been the case since Skill Expert was released in Tashas).

On the plus side Rogues get more/better high level class features, and they’re not just duplicating spells. Which is good! But are they worth waiting so long to get?

Thoughts?

Complicated.

I REALLY like the direction the Ranger is going. I think the Bard is also fine where it sits as well. Neither are perfect or where I would want them. But I'd be down to play either of those classes.

The Rogue sits in a weird spot. I don't think the nerfs are warranted per say. But I don't see them as big of a deal as others are making it out to be. The Thief Subclass seems buffed. Fast hands and cunning action are still bonkers strong. And the Thief being able to bonus action search is HIGHLY underated.

I think what's missing, is something that pops. If you remove the Sneak Attack feature, which again, is not as big of a deal as it's made out to be, I'd like it replaced with something a bit more exciting.

The Ranger too.

Ill say this. I like the direction all of the classes shown are going. BUT I'd like to see them pushed maybe 20 to 30 percent more in those directions.

[elyktsorb]

Thief subclass is nerfed, as Fast Hands can no longer Use an Object.

Was the using an Object the best part of fast hands? Like, I'll miss is, but if the items they have access to is the same quality as the current stock, that's not really a big deal.

The fact that they straight up get a climbing speed as opposed to climbing no longer costing extra movement seems like a good buff.

I'm more concerned with the fact that it seems like they can no longer use any magic item, though I suppose an extra attunement slot is nice.

[Mastikator]

Here are my thoughts of the new UA rogue class features.

Weapon proficiencies
Longsword is removed, longsword was a weird weapon proficiency that rogues get in 2014 PHB. I don't mind that it's gone, even though it's strictly a nerf.

Expertise
Same, as it used to be. No opinion

Sneak attack
Can no longer be used on a reaction, so you get one per round. It's another nerf, but setting up the second one always felt janky to me, now players will feel less compelled to do janky stuff. I don't mind.

Thieve's cant
You also gain a language proficiency, this is useful if DM uses languages in their campaign.

Cunning Action
Unchanged

Uncanny Dodge
unchanged

Evasion
Unchanged except you get it 2 levels later

Reliable Talent
Unchanged

Subtle strikes
Rogues basically get pact tactics, neat. No opinion on this TBH, I'm surprised that I don't. It's just a neat thing.

Slippery Mind
Also applies to charisma saves, I like.

---

My thoughts on the thief subclass

Fast hands
Can't use object with this, nerf, IMO unnecessary nerf. Not happy with this nerf.

Second-Story Work
You gain climb speed equal to your speed and you can use dex instead of str when you jump. This is much cleaner and simpler than the 2014 PHB version which IMO is a big improvement. It's technically weaker in some scenarios but in most should be stronger.

Supreme Sneak
Seems like the same as the 2014 PHB version but you get it sooner? I like.

Use Magic Device
You can now attune to 4 magic items, depending on the campaign that might be huge, or it might be nothing if you got a stingy DM.
You have a 1/6 chance to not use up charges on magic items with charges, that's really nice
Using scrolls seems like the same as 2014 PHB

Thief's Reflexes
Proficiency bonus times per day, you can take a second bonus action. This is kinda awesome?


--

overall I like that they didn't change too much, I like the change to second story work and I don't mind the nerf to sneak attack. So I'm happy. But not as happy as I am with the bard and the ranger TBH.

[stoutstien]

You beat me to the rogue.
This is definitely the biggest conceptual shift. The reduction to one sneak attack a round maximum but it looks like they are really leaning into more of a scrappy combatant with skills to back it up. I also think a lot of the damaging adventure items are going to be moved to the weapon table so it's possible that you're not actually going to lose out on sneak attack of holy water angle.

It is funny because they've always been a lot tankier than you would expect in 5e. They are doubling down on it.

The thief feels like it almost should be an Artificer option.

[Woggle]

Weapon proficiencies
Longsword is removed, longsword was a weird weapon proficiency that rogues get in 2014 PHB. I don't mind that it's gone, even though it's strictly a nerf.

I personally would have preferred to see the Sneak Attack restriction to finesse weapons lifted and replaced with any non-heavy weapon. Then keeping longsword as a proficiency, with the added benefit of being able to sneak attack with clubs and maces, for example. But it's not that big a deal to me in the end.

[stoutstien]

I personally would have preferred to see the Sneak Attack restriction to finesse weapons lifted and replaced with any non-heavy weapon. Then keeping longsword as a proficiency, with the added benefit of being able to sneak attack with clubs and maces, for example. But it's not that big a deal to me in the end.

Honestly if they are limiting sneak attack to once per round tops there's no reason for any weapon restrictions.

[nickl_2000]

Here are my thoughts of the new UA rogue class features.

Weapon proficiencies
Longsword is removed, longsword was a weird weapon proficiency that rogues get in 2014 PHB. I don't mind that it's gone, even though it's strictly a nerf.

I'm pretty sure Longsword only existed due to tradition. I don't think it's a nerf because you lost Longsword (which few rogues used) and added Whip, which many rogues would love.

[Damon_Tor]

The fact that they straight up get a climbing speed as opposed to climbing no longer costing extra movement seems like a good buff.

If anything it's a nerf because you can't mix move speeds now.

[Mastikator]

I'm pretty sure Longsword only existed due to tradition. I don't think it's a nerf because you lost Longsword (which few rogues used) and added Whip, which many rogues would love.

Good catch! This would technically give high level rogues with whips long range pack tactics. TAKE THAT KOBOLDS! BOW BEFORE THE MIGHTY ROGUE AND HIS 15 FEET PACK TACTICS (also with ranged weapons, sharpshooter with longbow could get 600 feet pack tactics, which is insane)

[Segev]

While the loss of the reaction sneak attack definitely hurts, Subtle Strikes looks to be a solid DPR boost. Assuming you weren't getting the reaction SA every round (which most rogues weren't), it might even be a net increase. In addition, the TWF changes mean melee rogues don't have to choose between attacking twice and getting Cunning Action (or Steady Aim, for those DMs that will allow Tashas optional features in 1DD.) And lastly, not needing to save your reaction for a potential second sneak attack means you can devote it to other things like Uncanny Dodge.

Could you elaborate on this? Do you just mean that you have advantage more often, so will hit more often? Or is there something I'm missing about it allowing more sneak attacks? If I am reading it correctly, it gives advantage in cases where you would already have sneak attack enabled; it doesn't actually enable sneak attacks you couldn't have already made.

[Stangler]

The change to sneak attack being effectively once per round is a necessary change because it has an oversized impact on the balancing of feats like sentinel or spells like haste or abilities like commander strike. From a game design POV the choice for more damage should be clearer to the player and balanced against other similar choices. The capacity to land sneak attack on a reaction attack seems like a nice feature but the balance implications should be considered.

The biggest changes between old and new rogue is the level 1 feat and easy access to half feats at level 4, plus the change to TWF. Create a level 5 rogue using the changes from the two UAs and you are looking at a really fun class with a lot of interesting customization options IMO. Alert + Charger is my favorite feat choice combo ATM.

Ranger is really OP early so don't get jealous.

Bard is still a primary spell caster and those still scale up really well.

As is, the game needs more feats and ways to scale up non spell related aspects of the game.

[follacchioso]

Here are my thoughts of the new UA rogue class features.

Sneak attack
Can no longer be used on a reaction, so you get one per round. It's another nerf, but setting up the second one always felt janky to me, now players will feel less compelled to do janky stuff. I don't mind.

My Order Cleric / Evocation Wizard specialized in Silvery Barbs is weeping for this. Such a great combo. But I agree that this is something that does not happen frequently at many tables. I also agree that rogues should not have been able to use Sneak Attack on Reactions anyways.

Another silent nerf is that Sneak Attacks are not doubled on Critical Hits, although it seems that may be changed in other UAs.

Cunning Action
Unchanged

They could have added the Jump action, it feels something Rogues would do better than other classes.

Subtle strikes
Rogues basically get pact tactics, neat. No opinion on this TBH, I'm surprised that I don't. It's just a neat thing.
Slippery Mind
Also applies to charisma saves, I like.

I agree, these are good changes.

Fast hands
Can't use object with this, nerf, IMO unnecessary nerf. Not happy with this nerf.

Fast Hands has always been a confusing feature. By raw it doesn't work on Healing Potions because they are magical. Alchemist Fires and the likes are very expensive to use, and Rogues do not have a way to craft them. I think this is a simplification more than a specific nerf.

The Search action allows you to roll a Perception check to see hidden creature - it's the Inquisitive Eye for Detail feature. This is very strong in many situations, and very roguish.

Second-Story Work
You gain climb speed equal to your speed and you can use dex instead of str when you jump. This is much cleaner and simpler than the 2014 PHB version which IMO is a big improvement. It's technically weaker in some scenarios but in most should be stronger.

Use Magic Device
You can now attune to 4 magic items, depending on the campaign that might be huge, or it might be nothing if you got a stingy DM.
You have a 1/6 chance to not use up charges on magic items with charges, that's really nice
Using scrolls seems like the same as 2014 PHB

Attuning to 4 magic items is very strong at high levels. I'll take it any day.
The scroll thing is unclear - does the scroll disintegrates if you succeed the Arcane check?
It's an interesting feature, but scrolls are expensive and rogues have no way to make them by themselves.

[Yakk]

The Light weapon rule makes rogues significantly stronger. Because they can now TWF *and* cunning action, as TWF does not require your bonus action anymore.

Could you elaborate on this? Do you just mean that you have advantage more often, so will hit more often? Or is there something I'm missing about it allowing more sneak attacks? If I am reading it correctly, it gives advantage in cases where you would already have sneak attack enabled; it doesn't actually enable sneak attacks you couldn't have already made.

Yes, it is advantage more often, hence more damage.

The high-op rogue was using readied actions (or similar) to get more than 1 sneak attack per round. But it required very specific techniques (like reliably getting haste) to pull off.

This was removed. But the baseline rogue is getting near-free advantage at level 13, which ups accuracy.

...

My baseline rogue is the two short sword rogue. With 60% hit and 5% crit chance, it gets 0.1 weapon crits, 1.2 weapon hits, 0.08 sneak attack crits and .84 sneak attack hit rate.

The readied action rogue (say, scimitar of speed) gets 0.1 sneak attack hits and 1.2 sneak attack hits per round.

The D&DOne L 13 rogue gets advantage, upping single-weapon hit rate to 84% and crit to 10%. This gives it a 1.68 weapon hits 0.2 weapon crits, 0.97 sneak attack hits and 0.11 sneak attack crits.

We'll give the Readied action rogue a Scimitar of Speed, and the D&D One Rogue a Flametongue.

L 13 Scimitar Readied Action 5e Rogue: 1.5 * 3.5 * 7 sneak attack, 1.5 * 3.5 weapon dice, 1.4 * 7 static damage = 51.8 DPR
L 13 Flametongue D&DOne Rogue: 1.08 * 3.5 * 7 sneak attack, .94 * 4 * 3.5 weapon dice, .84 * 5 static damage = 43.8 DPR
L 13 Flametongue 5e Rogue: .92 * 3.5 * 7 sneak attack, .65 * 4 * 3.5 weapon dice, .6 * 5 static damage = 34.6 DPR
L 13 SCAG Cantrip 5e Rogue (+2 sword): .75 * 3.5 * 7 sneak attack, .75 * 1 * 3.5 weapon dice, .75 * 4.5 * 2 Cantrip, .7 * 5 static damage = 31.3 DPR
L 13 Naive 5e Rogue (+2 sword): .75 * 3.5 * 7 sneak attack, .75 * 3.5 weapon, .7 * 7 static = 25.9 DPR
L 13 Naive 5e Rogue: .65 * 3.5 * 7 sneak attack, .65 * 3.5 weapon, .6 * 5 static = 21.2 DPR


And some other options as well.

It definitely boosts the baseline DPR of a T3 rogue nicely. The impact is large compared to most modest optimizations.

[Psyren]

Using scrolls seems like the same as 2014 PHB

The 5e Thief didn't need a check to use any scroll. Now, if the scroll is higher than 1st they do, making them a bit more MAD as they'll want Int.

Thief's Reflexes
Proficiency bonus times per day, you can take a second bonus action. This is kinda awesome?

Yeah, though to note, one or both of them have to be Cunning Action. Still, it's a nice way to say, Steady Aim + Dodge + Attack + Uncanny Dodge in one round.

[Yakk]

The 5e Thief didn't need a check to use any scroll. Now, if the scroll is higher than 1st they do, making them a bit more MAD as they'll want Int.

Reliable talent makes this a bit easy.

You can take expertise (arcana) to make it auto-succeed.

Without it, and 12(+1) int, at level 11 you can auto-succeed on everything up to level 5.

At level 17 you auto-succeed on up to 7th level spells.

Admittedly, if you don't have Arcana proficiency, it is more of a crapshoot.

L 8 and 9 scrolls are going to be pretty rare and expensive even in T4. If you really need to, getting +1 or +2 to your check via a bard, guideance cantrip, ion stone, luckstone are all options.

With advantage (from someone arcana trained aiding you) and guideance, your chance of casting a L 9 spell with arcana(+7) is:

75% (you roll an 11+7+1d4 or higher, min possible is 9).
+25% (reliable talent kicks in) * 75% (you roll a 2+ on guideance).
= 94% success chance. Still nail biting.

[Psyren]

Reliable talent makes this a bit easy.

You can take expertise (arcana) to make it auto-succeed.

Without it, and 12(+1) int, at level 11 you can auto-succeed on everything up to level 5.

At level 17 you auto-succeed on up to 7th level spells.

Admittedly, if you don't have Arcana proficiency, it is more of a crapshoot.

L 8 and 9 scrolls are going to be pretty rare and expensive even in T4. If you really need to, getting +1 or +2 to your check via a bard, guideance cantrip, ion stone, luckstone are all options.

With advantage (from someone arcana trained aiding you) and guideance, your chance of casting a L 9 spell with arcana(+7) is:

75% (you roll an 11+7+1d4 or higher, min possible is 9).
+25% (reliable talent kicks in) * 75% (you roll a 2+ on guideance).
= 94% success chance. Still nail biting.

I agree that with the right investments you can make it pretty reliable. But it's still a change from it being automatic.

[Pooky the Imp]

With regard to Sneak Attack, it's honestly something I'd really prefer to see the rogue move away from altogether.

To me at least, it just feels like a really boring mechanic that dangles around the neck of the class.

I'd much prefer to see a rogue along the lines of the Swordsage from the Book of 9 Swords (in 3.5). As in, a class with far more tricks up its sleeve in combat than just stabbing people in the back. Surely we could just offload that to the inevitable Assassin subclass?

[da newt]

Yeah, though to note, one or both of them have to be Cunning Action. Still, it's a nice way to say, Steady Aim + Dodge + Attack + Uncanny Dodge in one round.

Huh? Did Dodge or Attack become a BA with this new UA? I thought it added a second BA, not a second action so you could Steady Aim, attack, HIDE on one turn but not take 2 actions.

[Rukelnikov]

I agree with the change to Sneak Attack, looking for ways to use it off turn was a big part of the optimization of them for a while now, and its one of those "features" that I feel creates a "barrier of entry" of sorts.

Getting a subclass feature between 3 and 9 is good, independently of what those features are, they can be analyzed in a case by case basis.

Very relevant to the Rogue now, is the added support for dual wielding, which has historically been associated with Rogues, now that is not competing with you Cunning Action.

Thief in particular ended up much worse.

Second Story Work, seems a bit weaker than before, adding Dex mod feet to your distance jumped is the same as having Prof + Str + Dex for long jumps, and Prof + Str + 2*Dex for high jumps (as long as Str does not have a penalty).

Climbing speed instead of climbing not costing additional, I think is kind of a wash cause I don't believe this UA movement rules are gonna stick.

Fast Hands is strictly worse now, and subjectively I think it'll be almost useless, I question how often getting to make a search action as a BA instead of an action will come into play, it is used to find hidden enemies, so I might be worng here. Use an Object was the best part of it for me.

UMD is a different feature, an extra attunement slot is good, but being able to use staffs anymore is fundamentally changing how Thieves can be played once you get that feature.

[Psyren]

I'd much prefer to see a rogue along the lines of the Swordsage from the Book of 9 Swords (in 3.5). As in, a class with far more tricks up its sleeve in combat than just stabbing people in the back. Surely we could just offload that to the inevitable Assassin subclass?

They said Rogue had over 90% satisfaction in the PHB survey so your hopes of them removing sneak attack entirely are pretty slim.

Besides, "maneuver martial" is much more likely to be the realm of a Dex Battlemaster or a Monk.

[gloryblaze]

Could you elaborate on this? Do you just mean that you have advantage more often, so will hit more often? Or is there something I'm missing about it allowing more sneak attacks? If I am reading it correctly, it gives advantage in cases where you would already have sneak attack enabled; it doesn't actually enable sneak attacks you couldn't have already made.

While this maybe isn't what the person you quoted is referring to (since they already responded discussing something else), one thing that Subtle Strikes does is improve your ability to Sneak Attack when you would normally have disadvantage, like if you're at long range, shooting in melee, blinded, restrained, etc.

In a situation in which you have an ally within 5 feet of the target but also disadvantage, you'd be SOL in 5e because disadvantage is a hard off-switch for Sneak Attack. In One DND, Subtle Strikes would cancel the disadvantage and let you proc the sneak attack.

[Catullus64]

As someone who has played the Rogue class more than all other classes combined:

Getting Search added to Fast Hands (I guess you feel up your environment really quickly) is neat, though if this is meant to be backwards-compatible like they claim it steps on the toes of the Inquisitive.

So glad that Second-Story Work has had its game terminology clarified and brought in line. It was always such a weirdly worded feature. Also, there might be a standardized Jump Action now?

Swapping around 2nd Expertise, Evasion, and 2nd Subclass feature... I'm of mixed opinion about this. Putting something as cool as Evasion even further off rankles me, and the mid-tier Rogue features are seldom game-defining. I would have preferred:

6th: Evasion
7th: Subclass Feature
9th: Expertise

As for the Sneak Attack thing... it is a nuisance, and I find myself puzzled by the design rationale, but it's truly not a big deal. I think that optimization circles tend to overstate the importance of reaction-Sneak Attacking. For most people, I think that it's a neat occasional bonus rather than a key part of playing a Rogue.

Didn't look in as much detail at the Bard and Ranger, since they're not my favorite class like the Rogue, but it looks like there's a lot of sanding off of mechanical quirks and unique mechanics, which makes me sad. Natural Explorer needed a boost to its general applicability, but it was a great feature. Replacing it with generic expertise is so dull. The Hunter subclass loses cool stuff like Horde Breaker. I'm also not pleased if OneD&D is doing away with spells-known vs. prepared casting, which looks like the case given that the Bard and Ranger are now prepared.

All in all, this seems like a retreat into one of the things that bothered me about Fourth Edition: it achieved balance at the cost of a strong sense of class identity. This isn't quite as extreme as that edition, but note the signs: subclass feature levels standardized across classes, spell lists and preparation standardized across classes, wide proliferation of formerly-rare features like Expertise. Not to my taste.

[Chaos Jackal]

The nerf is overstated. Yes, at times, off-turn Sneak Attacks could end up accounting for a high percentage of a rogue's damage. A lot of other times though, that off-turn Sneak Attack was only some extra perk you were happy to use once in a while. After all, pulling it off on your own required you being a 13th level Arcane Trickster (that's a lot of levels and a lot of time spent without it), multiclassing to something that could more easily drop reaction attacks like Battle Master (which, however, meant weaker Sneak Attack overall), specific feats or specific classes/subclasses in the party who could give you the required boost. At the same time, it also locked you in melee (not good), as a d8 HD character (not awful but not ideal) without a reaction, including Uncanny Dodge 9 (very bad). There were plenty of cases where even being in a position for an off-turn Sneak Attack would be dangerous, let alone spending that reaction and leaving yourself completely open. And ranged rogues, who have some significant advantages over melee ones, never relied on it anyway.

So overall, yeah, this is a nerf, but it's not that big of a nerf and it doesn't come without anything in return. Pack Tactics at the same level an AT would get to haste themselves once a day is definitely big when you do the comparison, free off-hand attack means you get some of the damage back and makes Cunning Action available more often and the fact many skill uses have been clarified and spelled out in more specific, mechanical manners is also an obvious buff to the class, which can now leverage its Expertise and later on Reliable Talent with the appropriate skills to automatically succeed at a number of things that now have clear, defined, mechanical impact. The rogue, at least the baseline chassis, is probably better off in that UA than it is right now.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thief subclass is nerfed, as Fast Hands can no longer Use an Object.

That really stinks. It was one of the really cool features of Rogue/Thief, particularly with healer kit/feat.

On the plus side Rogues get more/better high level class features, and they’re not just duplicating spells. Which is good! But are they worth waiting so long to get?

I like the added attunement slot, not sure if I like the scroll limitation.

[Hael]

We will need to see dpr values for the other classes in the game to really judge whether this was a relative nerf or not. I think the 5.5 Ranger is already going to be significantly outdamaging what we see here.

In 5.0 the rogues damage was high in tier1, then fell off like a rock b/c other classes got extra attack and class features/feats that really scaled better than sneak attack. Consider that a rogue in 5.0 could multiclass out at 11, and only lose 4d6 damage * accuracy (not a relevant damage increase in tier3/4). At least with the reaction SA, it was 8d6 scaling (not great but workable).

My worry is that greater access to advantage in 5.5 (inspiration etc) seems like it might devalue classes that rely on easy advantage like the rogue and further make the SA scaling problems apparent.

[Rukelnikov]

I like the added attunement slot, not sure if I like the scroll limitation.

The scroll limitation is a complete deal breaker, UMD is fundamentally a different feature now.

[Dr.Samurai]

Rather than remove off-turn SA, the Rogue should have received an improvement to Uncanny Dodge at later levels that let them make an OA as part of using Uncanny Dodge against a melee attack.