Pls try this riddle

[BerzerkerUnit]

Context: my riddles are often bad leaving my players frustrated.

So for this one: there’s a “Draconic phonetic alphabet” that represents an ancient language at play.
The PCs want X from this library.
A Wizard’s apprentice has X and will exchange it for help breaking a code to open the Wizard’s spellbook

The library has a partially translated essay about a painting. They can use that to translate the poem (just cross referencing until they get a few keywords or about 1/2 done) which poses a question.

The passcode for the spellbook is the answer to that question. Here’s the poem, 7 lines (see below).

“When the moon dances with the daystar,

a darkness is born casting shade afar.

Daystar rises, east flying west

Leads to the question at heart in this test.

From where comes the sun in the dead of night

To bring hope to your house and smiles alight

Look not to the sky for this key or the other,

This secret is quite close and rhymes with another.”


If anyone can get it from this kludgey explanation, I’m confident my players will manage so thanks for the efforts!

If there’s a consensus it’s too hard I’ll offer a couple clues but dump it if it doesn’t help.

[GeoffWatson]

There's eight lines, not seven.

The first two lines are a solar eclipse, but I'm not sure how it fits with the rest.

If it was just the last four lines, I'd guess "Mother" - brings hope/smiles, rhymes with "another".

[ReallySeamus]

I suspect that the answer doesn't rhyme with the word "another", but rather rhymes with another secret that is quite close. But that's honestly because I can't think of a rhyme for "another" that seems to tie to the celestial theme, and I'm also not even really sure what question is being asked.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I suspect that the answer doesn't rhyme with the word "another", but rather rhymes with another secret that is quite close. But that's honestly because I can't think of a rhyme for "another" that seems to tie to the celestial theme, and I'm also not even really sure what question is being asked.

Thank you so much for responding!

Here's some Clues!

I mentioned the alphabet used to translate was phonetic, so there's likely to be at least one significant word that might have other spellings that give it different meanings.

A thing the poem talks about 3 times is spoken of a certain way the first two times and differently the 3rd.

The actual answer does indeed rhyme with "another."

[PhantomSoul]

The first two lines are a solar eclipse, but I'm not sure how it fits with the rest.

If it was just the last four lines, I'd guess "Mother" - brings hope/smiles, rhymes with "another".

That's where I got too (and rhyming with the exact word seemed like the standard riddle interpretation!). The next two lines after the eclipse (I parsed it the same way, so I'll go with that being correct) were maybe about the sun more broadly... but then that word pops up in a section that looks like it's hinting at "east" (which was earlier in the riddle). The line after suggests maybe it's specifically the horizon (unless there are geographical markers relevant in that area, like a mountain or the ocean). Mother has some common religious/mythical associations with the sun and "son"-"sun" are homophonous, so out of the very few words rhyming with "another" I figured it must be that too.

I mentioned the alphabet used to translate was phonetic, so there's likely to be at least one significant word that might have other spellings that give it different meanings.

I'm never too sure how people mean an alphabet is "phonetic" anymore, but that might be professional dissociation (I do linguistics, and mainly phonetics and phonology in particular!)! If it's going to be a major component, maybe using a respelled English could help highlight the "phonetic" aspect -- but "other spellings that give it different meanings" is really just different words and might then be even more obscured! :)

A thing the poem talks about 3 times is spoken of a certain way the first two times and differently the 3rd.

(Not clear how this is relevant to me as a hint -- this makes me think something like "dawn", but that doesn't line up with the next hint.)

The actual answer does indeed rhyme with "another."

I'm lost again -- maybe I'm looking for too good of a rhyme in the poetry sense (so rhyming with all of "other") or maybe there's a dialectal difference in what rhymes? I ended up googling words that rhyme with "another", and I'm still stuck. "Earth mother" was a strange result that at least would mean not looking to the sky.

[BerzerkerUnit]

That's where I got too (and rhyming with the exact word seemed like the standard riddle interpretation!). The next two lines after the eclipse (I parsed it the same way, so I'll go with that being correct) were maybe about the sun more broadly... but then that word pops up in a section that looks like it's hinting at "east" (which was earlier in the riddle). The line after suggests maybe it's specifically the horizon (unless there are geographical markers relevant in that area, like a mountain or the ocean). Mother has some common religious/mythical associations with the sun and "son"-"sun" are homophonous, so out of the very few words rhyming with "another" I figured it must be that too.




I'm never too sure how people mean an alphabet is "phonetic" anymore, but that might be professional dissociation (I do linguistics, and mainly phonetics and phonology in particular!)! If it's going to be a major component, maybe using a respelled English could help highlight the "phonetic" aspect -- but "other spellings that give it different meanings" is really just different words and might then be even more obscured! :)



(Not clear how this is relevant to me as a hint -- this makes me think something like "dawn", but that doesn't line up with the next hint.)



I'm lost again -- maybe I'm looking for too good of a rhyme in the poetry sense (so rhyming with all of "other") or maybe there's a dialectal difference in what rhymes? I ended up googling words that rhyme with "another", and I'm still stuck. "Earth mother" was a strange result that at least would mean not looking to the sky.

I was never too “close but no cigar” and any answer including Mother wins!

Thank you so much!

[PhantomSoul]

I was never too “close but no cigar” and any answer including Mother wins!

Thank you so much!

Where are the first four lines meant to lead? (Are they contributing to the solution?)

If "mother" is the goal, the main hint for me was just "another" having nearly no rhymes to choose from! Using "bright" instead of "night" for the first rhyme might help a bit; if "sun"->"son" is intended, it could allow something like "Source of the sun, always ever so bright", to avoid "where" (vs. "who") and to be more compatible with a person (bright=light-giving and bright=intelligent). Is "the other" meant to be for "sun"~"son", to make it not be the sun?

[animorte]

"It must be my adjective brother."

Either the Wizard's brother or the book's brother.

Why call it the daystar, then switch it to sun? ... son?

I was also kind of thinking Earth Mother.

Edit: I lose, ha

[Maat Mons]

I'd say the thing most likely to cause frustration is that almost the entire poem is a red herring. The only bits relevant to the answer are "From where comes the sun in the dead of night" and "This secret is quite close and rhymes with another."

[BerzerkerUnit]

I'd say the thing most likely to cause frustration is that almost the entire poem is a red herring. The only bits relevant to the answer are "From where comes the sun in the dead of night" and "This secret is quite close and rhymes with another."

Thank you so much for your feedback!

The first half does have germane thematic links with the moon and sun dancing from which is born darkness. The moon has common feminine associations, dancing can be a metaphor for intimate relations, metaphorically birthing the darkness. The sun traveling across the sky, out from the moon's shadow, could be interpreted as another kind of birth or the maturation and leaving home of a child.

Additionally, the sun is referred to as the Daystar twice in the first half which is intended to point toward the word Sun as being somehow suspect. So taken together the first half has some thematic ties to the back half which is a fairly straightforward question. Hopefully, they'll get the sense it's shifted from metaphorical to literal.

Also, the ideal answer is "A Mother" which is a two character difference from Another.

[BerzerkerUnit]

"It must be my adjective brother."

Either the Wizard's brother or the book's brother.

Why call it the daystar, then switch it to sun? ... son?

I was also kind of thinking Earth Mother.

Edit: I lose, ha

Not sure if I said it here, I'd accept any answer with Mother in it. Earth Mother works well enough because the metaphorical ties to the first half could allude to the horizon giving birth to the sun, and while I say "dead of night" which I've usually taken to mean the middle, if we make a metaphorical cocktail, that could be the time it's darkest, AKA, just before the dawn. So another pass.

[PhantomSoul]

I'd say the thing most likely to cause frustration is that almost the entire poem is a red herring. The only bits relevant to the answer are "From where comes the sun in the dead of night" and "This secret is quite close and rhymes with another."

That's the feeling I got too -- and really, "where comes the sun" has two points of mislead (sun that is also the hint, where is a place) with "in the dead of night" leading you further astray instead of working with the non-metaphorical goal (as far as I can tell)

Thank you so much for your feedback!

The first half does have germane thematic links with the moon and sun dancing from which is born darkness. The moon has common feminine associations, dancing can be a metaphor for intimate relations, metaphorically birthing the darkness. The sun traveling across the sky, out from the moon's shadow, could be interpreted as another kind of birth or the maturation and leaving home of a child.

The first part led me to think you were referring to a culture where the sun is feminine, actually! (But partly because I had to try to reverse engineer a possible relevance for one of the few words rhyming with "another", rather than because it really led me there.)

Most of that I would not have suggested even in a literature class! :) But it really did feel like a red herring given the one part that seemed most useful (the rhyme) didn't really seem to relate intuitive to any of it.

Additionally, the sun is referred to as the Daystar twice in the first half which is intended to point toward the word Sun as being somehow suspect. So taken together the first half has some thematic ties to the back half which is a fairly straightforward question. Hopefully, they'll get the sense it's shifted from metaphorical to literal.

If you want to feel like there's a shift, I would put the first four and last four lines together, with a line separating those two sets. Then the first part is an introduction (that they might best ignore in practice?) and the second part is the heart.

Also, the ideal answer is "A Mother" which is a two character difference from Another.

Nothing in the riddle would lead me to put "a" beyond generically wanting a determiner, if that affects anything! But since "mother" is accepted, that doesn't seem like a big deal. I think that's really just whether they're answering as a sentence (fragment) or as a word in practice.

Not sure if I said it here, I'd accept any answer with Mother in it. Earth Mother works well enough because the metaphorical ties to the first half could allude to the horizon giving birth to the sun, and while I say "dead of night" which I've usually taken to mean the middle, if we make a metaphorical cocktail, that could be the time it's darkest, AKA, just before the dawn. So another pass.

"Dead of night" really just got discarded, for me at least. I concluded it was probably there for there rhyme or to 'bulk' up the riddle!