OOTS #1269 - The Discussion Thread

[Tzardok]

As I said, stupidus already meant stupid before English was even a thing, so...

[JonahFalcon]

As I said, stupidus already meant stupid before English was even a thing, so...

No. It meant stunned, shocked, unable to speak.

There's a reason for the term "stupefy" and "struck stupid".

[Quizatzhaderac]

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=stupid

Latin "Stupidus" had connotations of being foolish, as did every descendant. Any connotations of "Stunned" died out from English "stupid" over two and a half centuries ago.

[Ruck]

We should bring the old meaning back just so we can have Power Word: Stupid.

[JonahFalcon]

Anyone think it's funny how Roy has to sit on a stool meant for Small size creatures?

[bunsen_h]

Anyone think it's funny how Roy has to sit on a stool meant for Small size creatures?

He could have just sat on the floor like Haley and (apparently) Vaarsuvius, thereby freeing up one of the real stools. Perhaps his armour would make that difficult. But his sitting on a stool places him half a head higher than any of the other seated people.

[Laurentio III]

He could have just sat on the floor like Haley and (apparently) Vaarsuvius,

Vaasrsuvius is levitating.
Somehow it's a cantrip, or an elf power, or the most severe and persistent flautolence ever.

[JonahFalcon]

He could have just sat on the floor like Haley and (apparently) Vaarsuvius, thereby freeing up one of the real stools. Perhaps his armour would make that difficult. But his sitting on a stool places him half a head higher than any of the other seated people.

But check out his legs.

[Metastachydium]

Vaasrsuvius is levitating.
Somehow it's a cantrip, or an elf power, or the most severe and persistent flautolence ever.

V's been doing that in the tunnel as well. We have seen them do it while meditating; nevertheless, my personal guess would be that they are merely using their Overland Flight there (yes, I am aware that Overland Flight doesn't provide the maneuverability needed for hovering, but Xykon was likewise shown using it in a way that shouldn't, by RAW, be possible unless the spell provided perfect flight or he invested heavily in feats facilitating such a use).

[Drathon'Tal]

Stealing the noodles out of your soup. I will be stealing that. I wonder how long durkon will stay stuck. would be hilarious if Xykon shows up with him still stuck to a stool mimic.

[KorvinStarmast]

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=stupid

Latin "Stupidus" had connotations of being foolish, as did every descendant. Any connotations of "Stunned" died out from English "stupid" over two and a half centuries ago.

I think that part of the 'stunned' meaning is retained in the term 'stupor' from the same root.

[bunsen_h]

"Stealing the noodles out of your soup" -- given the halfling cultural focus on food, I suppose it makes sense that their metaphors would be food-based.

[alceryes]

Belkar getting Durkon to give the mimic a massage is a straight up Wisdom call.

I don't see how a Wisdom of 22+ didn't even consider the posible negative outcomes. Makes for a great story but, RAW, this would've never happened.

[Peelee]

Belkar getting Durkon to give the mimic a massage is a straight up Wisdom call.

I don't see how a Wisdom of 22+ didn't even consider the posible negative outcomes. Makes for a great story but, RAW, this would've never happened.

If you want to classify it as RAW, it's not a straight Wis roll, it would be Dungeoneering.

However, RAW doesn't matter for the story, and has not for a very long time.

[alceryes]

If you want to classify it as RAW, it's not a straight Wis roll, it would be Dungeoneering.

However, RAW doesn't matter for the story, and has not for a very long time.

Understood regarding RAW.
It would be dungeoneering if you're considering the check to be knowledge about the monster type, yes.
As a player, I would call this a Wisdom check because the check gets way more functionally basic than knowing the moster type - "One part of me is stuck to this thing. What would happen if I put more parts of me on it?" As a DM, I would definitely allow this as a Wisdom roll.

[Peelee]

Understood regarding RAW.
It would be dungeoneering if you're considering the check to be knowledge about the monster type, yes.
As a player, I would call this a Wisdom check because the check gets way more functionally basic than knowing the moster type - "One part of me is stuck to this thing. What would happen if I put more parts of me on it?" As a DM, I would definitely allow this as a Wisdom roll.

That'd be a great call if it was a surface with a sticky substance on it, since then it can't react. The mimic, being a creature, can react and the information given was specifically about how it make it react a certain way. If it was a horse, I'd call it animal handling. It's an aberration, so dungeoneering gets it.

[alceryes]

That'd be a great call if it was a surface with a sticky substance on it.

Totally disagree
The fact that it's already 'stuck to me butt' trumps any supposed knowledge of whether 'this thing is supposed to be sticky' or not.

Remember, Wisdom is applied intelligence to achieve a favorable outcome, or avoid an unfavorable one.

The old adage from my 1st and 2nd ed. days comes to mind.
Intelligence - Tells you it's raining.
Wisdom - Tells you to get out of the rain or you'll catch a cold.

This is 100% a Wisdom roll.

[Peelee]

Totally disagree
The fact that it's already 'stuck to me butt' trumps any supposed knowledge of whether 'this thing is supposed to be sticky' or not.

Remember, Wisdom is applied intelligence to achieve a favorable outcome, or avoid an unfavorable one.

The old adage from my 1st and 2nd ed. days comes to mind.
Intelligence - Tells you it's raining.
Wisdom - Tells you to get out of the rain or you'll catch a cold.

This is 100% a Wisdom roll.

By this logic, if you're already sitting on a horse, then all you need is a Dex roll to keep your balance and ride it.

Also, staying in rain doesn't suddenly give you a virus.

[alceryes]

By this logic, if a horse is standing nearby, then all you need is a Dex roll to jump on its back and ride it.

They are nowhere near equivalent. Max jump height, knowledge of horseback riding, and horse reaction will come into play. I'm referring simply to a Wisdom check, based on objective knowledge, to know whether or not an action could lead to a negative outcome.

Also, staying in rain doesn't suddenly give you a virus.

Agreed. It is a rather simplified example of Wisdom.
However, it served its purpose, as I'm 100% sure you recognized the inference.

[danielxcutter]

That seems more like a Knowledge(Dungeoneering) check to know that mimics can do that, and then a Bluff check against Durkon's Sense Motive. The former is a class skill for him, and the latter is entirely with in the realm of d20 dice rolls.

[alceryes]

That seems more like a Knowledge(Dungeoneering) check to know that mimics can do that, and then a Bluff check against Durkon's Sense Motive. The former is a class skill for him, and the latter is entirely with in the realm of d20 dice rolls.

I'm actually not even considering bluff or dungeoneering (although they are possibility).

I'm just talking about a straight Wisdom check based on objective knowledge - "One part of me is stuck to this thing. What would happen if I put more parts of me on it?"

[Metastachydium]

They are nowhere near equivalent. Max jump height, knowledge of horseback riding, and horse reaction will come into play. I'm referring simply to a Wisdom check, based on objective knowledge, to know whether or not an action could lead to a negative outcome.

That seems more like a Knowledge(Dungeoneering) check to know that mimics can do that, and then a Bluff check against Durkon's Sense Motive. The former is a class skill for him, and the latter is entirely with in the realm of d20 dice rolls.

It's certainly not a WIS check.
1. "Objective knowledge" falls under INT; the INT-based check that provides objective knowledge regarding aberrations is, as many have pointed out, called Knowledge (dungeoneering).
2. As a ranger, Belkar is supposed to be good with critters. Listening to the "expert" is certainly not unwise and if Durkon didn't trust him, the check he needed was not straight WIS but, as Daniel correctly highlights, an opposed Sense Motive against Belkar's Bluff. Belkar's a good liar, and fooled Durkon many a time.
3. Mimics are sapient creatures, capable of understanding Common. Durkon could have dismissed the advice to try and influence the stool's behaviour, but that would have required a CHA-based Diplomacy check.
4. Ability checks are uncommon. Being insightful or reckless as befits one's WIS score is roleplaying the score, not making WIS checks.

[Peelee]

They are nowhere near equivalent. Max jump height, knowledge of horseback riding, and horse reaction will come into play. I'm referring simply to a Wisdom check, based on objective knowledge, to know whether or not an action could lead to a negative outcome.

I slightly altered it while you were apparently writing your post, but I disagree with your assessment. They are more equivalent than you are treating them, because they are both treating how living creatures are reacting to you. This is an important facet that necessarily changes whta kind of check results.

I'm actually not even considering bluff or dungeoneering (although they are possibility).

I'm just talking about a straight Wisdom check based on objective knowledge - "One part of me is stuck to this thing. What would happen if I put more parts of me on it?"

"One part of me is stuck to this creature. How will it react if I try to handle it in a specific way? "

It's not a gluey stool. It is a creature. It exudes its sticky substance and can dissolve it at will.

[alceryes]

1. "Objective knowledge" falls under INT; the INT-based check that provides objective knowledge regarding aberrations is, as many have pointed out, called Knowledge (dungeoneering).

100% agree. The actual objective knowledge itself is intelligence. Luckily, since he's already stuck to it, no check is needed - he knows things can stick to his stool/mimic.
Making a judgement using that knowledge in order to gain a favorable outcome (and avoid an unfavorable one) is wisdom.

2. As a ranger, Belkar is supposed to be good with critters. Listening to the "expert" is certainly not unwise and if Durkon didn't trust him, the check he needed was not straight WIS but, as Daniel correctly highlights, an opposed Sense Motive against Belkar's Bluff. Belkar's a good liar, and fooled Durkon many a time.

Again, I'm not even considering bluff, sense motive, or knowledge of the creature.

It's certainly not a WIS check.
3. Mimics are sapient creatures, capable of understanding Common. Durkon could have dismissed the advice to try and influence the stool's behaviour, but that would have required a CHA-based Diplomacy check.

This may come into play if you consider a dungeoneering check. I'm not.

4. Ability checks are uncommon. Being insightful or reckless as befits one's WIS score is roleplaying the score, not making WIS checks.

I understand your point here and I think I may have mis-represented the point I was trying to make. My point is not that a Wisdom check would've been made if this was a TT game. Yes, that's what I implied but not what I meant.

My point is that Durkon, with a wisdom of 22+, would've never gotten his hands stuck - regardless of Belkar's suggestion.

[Ruck]

Again, I'm not even considering bluff, sense motive, or knowledge of the creature.

I suppose it is easier to reduce the situation to your preferred factor if you dismiss the others out of hand, yeah.

[Peelee]

I understand your point here and I think I may have mis-represented the point I was trying to make. My point is not that a Wisdom check would've been made if this was a TT game. Yes, that's what I implied but not what I meant.

My point is that Durkon, with a wisdom of 22+, would've never gotten his hands stuck - regardless of Belkar's suggestion.

This is much more reasonable, but I still disagree, because of the main point that it's still a living creature. It can dissolve its glue whenever it wants. Durkon was told how to get it to dissolve its glue, and that advice as specifically regarding knowledge about how the creature reacts, from a person who would likely have such knowledge.

High wisdom doesn't mean you never make any mistakes.

[alceryes]

I suppose it is easier to reduce the situation to your preferred factor if you dismiss the others out of hand, yeah.

Yeah, again, I misspoke about there being a check needed.
I really meant that, with such high wisdom, Durkon would've probably brought his ass-in-stool right over to Belkar and have him 'squeeze the stress right out of it'. This is the wisest thing to do. After all, Belkar's the animal expert, right?


And now that I've wrote that, I think Rich missed a wonderful couple comic panes of banter between Durkon (with ass-in-stool) and Belkar, (who, of course, refuses to touch the thing).

[Laurentio III]

This is much more reasonable, but I still disagree, because of the main point that it's still a living creature. It can dissolve its glue whenever it wants. Durkon was told how to get it to dissolve its glue, and that advice as specifically regarding knowledge about how the creature reacts, from a person who would likely have such knowledge.

It's worth noting that it could have worked. It didn't because that particolar Mimic was not into massaging, and possibly because Durkon is bad at it. And wearing combat gloves.
So it was a possibly reasonable suggestion.

[Riftwolf]

It'd be a couple of checks imo
First Belkars Bluff vs Durkons Sense Motive
Then Durkon gets a Dungeoneering check to know if Belkars advice is a bad idea
There's no evidence Durkon, a skill point poor class, has Sense Motive or Dungeoneering, so it'd be Bluff vs Wis followed by Int. The bluff would be heavily modded by Belkars past track record, his apparent heel-face turn, and that Serini, who would definitely know about mimics, didn't gainsay him.

[danielxcutter]

Also Knowledge skills are Trained only, so if the DC is over I think 20 you can't make the roll at all.