OOTS #1269 - The Discussion Thread

[Tzardok]

Also Knowledge skills are Trained only, so if the DC is over I think 20 you can't make the roll at all.

Over 10. Otherwise correct.

[alceryes]

It'd be a couple of checks imo
First Belkars Bluff vs Durkons Sense Motive
Then Durkon gets a Dungeoneering check to know if Belkars advice is a bad idea
There's no evidence Durkon, a skill point poor class, has Sense Motive or Dungeoneering, so it'd be Bluff vs Wis followed by Int. The bluff would be heavily modded by Belkars past track record, his apparent heel-face turn, and that Serini, who would definitely know about mimics, didn't gainsay him.

I initially referenced a wisdom check but this is not a setting with any type of opposition. If Durkon wanted to take Belkar's advice then there's no checks needed, at all.

My only point revolved around this being an atypical move, given Durkon's high wisdom score - that's it. Period.

The idea that Durkon, with his ass already stuck to the stool, would then dive in with his hands is NOT a wise move, regardless of Belkar's advise. I think he should've gone over to Belkar, ass-in-stool, and let Belkar 'squeeze the stress right out of it'. That is something someone with a 22+ in wisdom would do.

[Doug Lampert]

Also Knowledge skills are Trained only, so if the DC is over I think 20 you can't make the roll at all.

Over 10. Otherwise correct.

And of course knowing ANYTHING about a creature or identifying one is DC 10+HD.

By the book, you can not identify a fellow human without training knowledge local, which is not a class skill for most people. This presumably explains a lot about where all the crossbreeds come from in D&D land.

Knowing anything significant about a mimic is DC 17, and thus can't be done untrained.

[Laurentio III]

By the book, you can not identify a fellow human without training knowledge local, which is not a class skill for most people. This presumably explains a lot about where all the crossbreeds come from in D&D land.

«I think it's a troll.»
«Yes, but you can't say for sure, can you? And she is winking at me.»
«"She"?»
«Recognizing the gender of a humanoid has a difficulty of just 5. So...»
«Still a troll, dude.»
«I'm taking my chances at it. Hold my pants.»

[Tzardok]

10 + hd is only a guideline. It is explicitely called out as something that can be corrected upwards or downwards for esspecially obscure or well-known creatures. Everything that is common knowledge has a dc of 10 or lower. Unless humans don't count as common knowledge for you, well...

[Metastachydium]

I initially referenced a wisdom check but this is not a setting with any type of opposition. If Durkon wanted to take Belkar's advice then there's no checks needed, at all.

My only point revolved around this being an atypical move, given Durkon's high wisdom score - that's it. Period.

The idea that Durkon, with his ass already stuck to the stool, would then dive in with his hands is NOT a wise move, regardless of Belkar's advise. I think he should've gone over to Belkar, ass-in-stool, and let Belkar 'squeeze the stress right out of it'. That is something someone with a 22+ in wisdom would do.

You might want to re-examine a couple of scenes with the guy, notably the memory with the frog, his proposing to Hilgya and several moments in the conversation with Redcloak. You might end up surprised.

Knowing anything significant about a mimic is DC 17, and thus can't be done untrained.

Interesting fact: this is 3.5; of course it can be if one built for it. Jack of All Trades^CAdv is an easy workaround, for instance. (Being a chronotyryn is another, but few are cool enough to get to be a chronotyryn.)

Unless humans don't count as common knowledge for you, well...

[Clears throat Signals presence through vocalization.]

[Tzardok]

[Clears throat Signals presence through vocalization.]

Yeah, ok, fine, humans are obscure. They are so obscure, they don't even have an entry in the Monster Manual. Really, the knowledge dc to identify one should be in the 30s. It's a wonder anyone can even recognize one instead of confusing them with more common and well-known creatures like mongrelfolk.

[Doug Lampert]

10 + hd is only a guideline. It is explicitely called out as something that can be corrected upwards or downwards for esspecially obscure or well-known creatures. Everything that is common knowledge has a dc of 10 or lower. Unless humans don't count as common knowledge for you, well...

No it's not. The following is the entire SRD description of how to use the knowledge skills, the words common, or obscure, or adjust the DC never occur in anything here. It does say that the DC is "in general", but general use is the default for all rules, specific exceptions should be listed in an exception based system, which D&D 3.5 is.

Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.

Below are listed typical fields of study.

Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)
Check
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).

In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster.

For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.

Action
Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.

Try Again
No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.

Synergy
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering), you get a +2 bonus on Search checks made to find secret doors or hidden compartments.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (geography), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made to keep from getting lost or to avoid natural hazards.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), you get a +2 bonus on bardic knowledge checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (local), you get a +2 bonus on Gather Information checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made in aboveground natural environments (aquatic, desert, forest, hill, marsh, mountains, or plains).
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty), you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion), you get a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (the planes), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on other planes.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while underground.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Survival, you get a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks.
Untrained
An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, ok, fine, humans are obscure. They are so obscure, they don't even have an entry in the Monster Manual.

Right? RIGHT?

It's a wonder anyone can even recognize one instead of confusing them with more common and well-known creatures like mongrelfolk.

Yeah, exactly! (Or changelings, for that matter!)

No it's not. The following is the entire SRD description of how to use the knowledge skills, the words common, or obscure, or adjust the DC never occur in anything here. It does say that the DC is "in general", but general use is the default for all rules, specific exceptions should be listed in an exception based system, which D&D 3.5 is.

That happens quite a lot in later books, actually. MM4, exempli gratia, adds this to the general rule:

The description of the Knowledge skill indicates that in general, the baseline DC of checks to identify monsters and remember one bit of useful information about their special power or vulnerabilities is equal to 10 + the monster’s HD. Every 5 points by which the check result exceeds the DC yields another useful piece of information (PH 78). That addresses specific creatures very well, but there’s more to be said about creatures of general types. Consider the whisper demon as an example. It’s a 15 Hit Dice creature. That means that identifying it is a DC 25 check. This generally check will generally yield one bit of information, but since there are lowly 2 HD demons such as the dretch out there that share many of the demon and tanar’ri traits, it’s reasonable to give more information about it with the initial identification of the creature as a tanar’ri. As a general rule of thumb, a DC 15 check or higher will reveal all of the base creature’s type and subtype traits as defined in the glossary. This often includes information about energy resistance or various immunities. For instance, a DC 15 Knowledge (arcana) check reveals that dragons have high hit points (12-sided HD), all good saves, and have darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. They are immune to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects. They eat, sleep,
and breathe. Information specific to the creature, such as its type of damage resistance, spell-like abilities, or immunities come with the high DC check results.

And then, it applies it in a manner contradicting the word of the rule (text trumps table, of course, but it's telling RAI-wise):

BLACK ROCK TRISKELION [26 HD] LORE
Characters with ranks in Knowledge (the planes) can learn
more about black rock triskelions. When a character makes a
successful skill check, the following lore is revealed, including
the information from lower DCs.

DC Result	Knowledge (the Planes)
18	This strange, rocky creature is obviously an elemental. This result reveals all elemental traits and the earth subtype.
28	This creature is a black rock triskelion, a servant of Ogremoch, Prince of Evil Earth Elementals. Its rocky body reduces damage from physical attacks.
33	A black rock triskelion’s fearsome arms strike like heavy picks and can penetrate even adamantine to deal devastating damage.
38	Triskelions are incredibly durable and can resist spells and magical effects with their innate toughness rather than reflexes.

The low DC varies wildly. Sometimes it's 15, sometimes it's a tad higher, sometimes it's 10+CR. It always provides the common denomination of the creature.

[The MunchKING]

Yeah, exactly! (Or changelings, for that matter!)

changelings are all creature types. Their very LACK of defining characteristics is what defines them as a people. :D

[alceryes]

You might want to re-examine a couple of scenes with the guy, notably the memory with the frog, his proposing to Hilgya and several moments in the conversation with Redcloak. You might end up surprised.

Yeah. He has done some very unwise things. Including trying to massage the stress out of a mimic he's already stuck to.

[brian 333]

Let's overthink the crap out of this one!

DCs are the domain of the DM, who decides how rare or common a bit of information is in his world.

Are mimics well known in OotSworld? Humans are. Humans are everywhere.

Bellar knows things Durkon doesn't. He made a ferocious, man-eating dinosaur into his best buddy. Durkon didn't know how to do that. Was Durkon unwise to defer to Belkar's expertise?

Durkon has an established trait of not understanding the social cues of other races. He didn't know Roy wanted help when being eaten by a giant toad, for example. So to expect that he could in any way determine Belkar's motives is unrealistic.

But, an experienced animal handler who has demonstrated extreme proficiency in his profession, who offers advice in a reasonable tone of voice?

Why would Durkon even make a check?

[danielxcutter]

Durkon not helping Roy initially with the frog monster was related more to the plate accident shown in the same strip, remember?

I think in general he trusts Belkar not to lie about things that would be of serious detriment to the party though, which is why he mostly just falls for the petty-but-ultimately-not-serious pranks Belkar sets up.

[Ruck]

Yeah. He has done some very unwise things. Including trying to massage the stress out of a mimic he's already stuck to.

Right, so the former establishes the latter is in character. So what's the problem?

[Metastachydium]

Precisely. Durkon has a history of misapplying (or simply not using) that Wisdom score in manners more egregious than trusting an expert opinion provided by an ally he has begun to build a genuine rapport with lately.

[Kish]

A glance at Redcloak should indicate that Rich is using pretty complete gameplay/story segregation for the Wisdom score.

(Unless one thinks the sunk cost fallacy is not a fallacy and that saying "for the good of the goblin people" is the same thing as working dedicatedly for the good of the goblin people...but in that case that person is likely to find the story's denouement confusing, I suspect.)

Humans are super easy to know about not because the Knowledge rules don't cover them but because the "default" human is a first-level commoner, one hit die. And that didn't stop Celia from not realizing that they can't shoot electricity from their fingers.

[Metastachydium]

(Unless one thinks the sunk cost fallacy is not a fallacy and that saying "for the good of the goblin people" is the same thing as working dedicatedly for the good of the goblin people...but in that case that person is likely to find the story's denouement confusing, I suspect.)

(I will continue to maintain that the two do have an overlap of non-trivial dimensions, but I'm not as good with word pictures for making understanding as Oona is, so I'll leave it at that.)

[alceryes]

Right, so the former establishes the latter is in character. So what's the problem?

Both are inconsistent with a wisdom score of 22+.

[hamishspence]

"Wisdom scores" are a mechanic - they represent various things (will saves, clerical power, certain skills) - but they don't control "ability to avoid unwise choices".

[alceryes]

"Wisdom scores" are a mechanic - they represent various things (will saves, clerical power, certain skills) - but they don't control "ability to avoid unwise choices".

But is it not also a measured trait and characteristic of the individual? One that should be followed...?
(or, have I been playing D&D incorrectly for the past 35+ years?)

Anywho, not gonna banter about it further. I just think that his action wasn't indicative of an individual possessing a 22+ wisdom score, nuff said.

[brian 333]

Durkon trusts.

Is trusting unwise?

Who knows, if he hadn't panicked, the mimic probably would not have glued him in the first place, and if he hadn't panicked again, the deep tissue massage might have calmed the creature.

It's like meeting a strange dog: your fear triggers it's reaction. Calm confidence soothes it.

(Why didn't Minrah get stuck?)

[Crusher]

No it's not. The following is the entire SRD description of how to use the knowledge skills, the words common, or obscure, or adjust the DC never occur in anything here. It does say that the DC is "in general", but general use is the default for all rules, specific exceptions should be listed in an exception based system, which D&D 3.5 is.

The "Try Again No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place." part is hilarious.

[Crusher]

And that didn't stop Celia from not realizing that they can't shoot electricity from their fingers.

"Obscure" or not depends very much on who you're asking. Humans apparently were obscure to her.

[Riftwolf]

(Why didn't Minrah get stuck?)

She didn't panic and shout as she stood up.
Or her mimic was less anxious because mimics are distrustful of beards.
Or conservation of detail in the comic.
Or Maybelline.

[Laurentio III]

(Why didn't Minrah get stuck?)

I was going to answer, but I checked and Mimics are not gendered.
That makes my daydream of being a mimic in a beauty saloon a little weird.

[brian 333]

...a beauty saloon...

My new head canon: this phrase means, "a place where people go to drink until the person they are with becomes attractive."

[Vikenlugaid]

But is it not also a measured trait and characteristic of the individual? One that should be followed...?
(or, have I been playing D&D incorrectly for the past 35+ years?)

Anywho, not gonna banter about it further. I just think that his action wasn't indicative of an individual possessing a 22+ wisdom score, nuff said.

So you are saying a wise person shouldn't trust anyone, never.

[bunsen_h]

The "Try Again No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place." part is hilarious.

I wouldn't call it strictly accurate, though. Fairly regularly, I'm trying to remember a thing, and fail to come up with it immediately. But if I put the matter on my mental back burner, and try again a few minutes, hours, or days later, the information comes immediately to mind.

[Quizatzhaderac]

«I think it's a troll.»
«Yes, but you can't say for sure, can you? And she is winking at me.»
«"She"?»
«Recognizing the gender of a humanoid has a difficulty of just 5. So...»
«Still a troll, dude.»
«I'm taking my chances at it. Hold my pants.»

Tonight, on Waterdeep's favorite dating show: Troll or trollup!

[Metastachydium]

I wouldn't call it strictly accurate, though. Fairly regularly, I'm trying to remember a thing, and fail to come up with it immediately. But if I put the matter on my mental back burner, and try again a few minutes, hours, or days later, the information comes immediately to mind.

Man, I couldn't agree more!