OOTS #1274 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[NCat]

Ooh new comic! Loving the interaction between the two here, and Roy really living up to trying to be Lawful Good

I wonder what people can draw from this for the "Fake!sister" theory, it being Sabrini could lime up with her maybe tempting him to evil, and then just not rolling a high enough diplomacy to convince him? (LG, that's gotta be a pretty high DC wouldn't it?)

[RMS Oceanic]

If Roy is to be damned, he'll be damned for what he truly is.

[Lord Ruby34]

Julia showing her family resemblance to Eugene, here, I think.

[Ivrytwr]

I always enjoy Roy's ethics and rationalization.
And cool to watch the siblings continue to evolve.

I did stick on the up/down of their positions when Julia said it. That was cool to see it pay off.

Thanks Giant!

[Metastachydium]

Julia showing her family resemblance to Eugene, here, I think.

Curse you! I came here to quip "why, hello, Eugene Jr." and you beat me to it. (But hey, at least morality's not completely lost on hger and she doesn't pretend she's LG.)

[Duncun]

I'm in the "It's Julia" camp myself. I have seen some compelling arguments to the contrary, but nothing to convince me so far and I think this strip helps.

[Kantaki]

Not that I think this isn't Julia, but if it is a pretender it definitely isn't Eugene.
He wouldn't have apologised.

[Fyraltari]

Well, This seems like a big emotional moment between brother and sister, it'd be kinda weird to have that and then reveal Julia as an imposter. But I'm still doubting things.

Why would she say "up there"?

Curse you! I came here to quip "why, hello, Eugene Jr." and you beat me to it. (But hey, at least morality's not completely lost on hger and she doesn't pretend she's LG.)

Oh, there you are Dad. I didn't see you hiding in my sister's entire personality like that.

[Adventurer]

"my... family's burden".

I'm taking that as more evidence that this is actually Eugene, who meant to say "my burden".

[Hardcore]

"my... family's burden".

I'm taking that as more evidence that this is actually Eugene, who meant to say "my burden".

You are right, it IS Eugene!

[The_Snark]

Not that I think this isn't Julia, but it's a pretender it definitely isn't Eugene.
He wouldn't have apologised.

It's unusual, but on the other hand consider: only being able to admit he's wrong/show emotional vulnerability when he's pretending to be someone else sounds kind of spot-on for him?

[Peelee]

And I'm back to thinking this is just Julia. I was never really sold on who it could be if it was anyone else, Eugene was the strongest candidate, and though this is remnisicient of Eugene it's clearly not.

[pyrefiend]

"my... family's burden".

I'm taking that as more evidence that this is actually Eugene, who meant to say "my burden".

Agreed. That plus the "up here" comment, come on, it's definitely Eugene.

[Tubercular Ox]

If later there's a reveal showing this to be Sabine, then the scene is showing that Sabine is interested in saving the world and willing to do it in ways that suit her alignment, and cares enough to push to have it done even with someone of opposite alignment. IOW, if it's Sabine and Sabine is conning Roy, her goal is probably saving the world and not revenge on the Order of the Stick.

The hesitation over "my ... family's burden" is usually a sign that the character (Sabine or Julia) wanted to say something else first. If it's Sabine, there are a lot of good reasons why she would change her mind over what she says, for example because her real motives would give her away.

If later there's a reveal confirming it's Julia, I dunno, other things. Mostly the same.

Also, this scene sets up how Roy feels about monstrous children. If there are any other monstrous children in the story, that's going to pay off later.

[ericgrau]

This reminds me. Where's the obligatory undead/other santa monster? Wait, It probably happened a long time ago and I forgot, right? My memory's a little fuzzy on this.

[pendell]

A question for Roy's conscience. He's not going to use a child as bait in his battle plan when the risk is high the child will be killed. Fair enough.

So what if Sunny was a full-grown adult? Would you feel the same way, or would you use our friend Sunny as bait then?

What if we substitute Belkar for Sunny? Bait or no?

I'm just trying to find out if his moral compass allows him to use allies as sacrificial pawns at all, and if he is, what his guidelines are.

For myself, if it was either bait or see the world destroyed, yes, I'd use Sunny as bait. But I'd look long and hard for other options first; it's pretty rare IRL or in roleplaying that you're forced into a straight-up academic trolley problem.

ETA: Call me foolish but I see no reason to doubt this is the real Julia. I'll look silly if this being turns out to be an imposter.

E again to add: I don't see things Roy's way WRT his sister. Boys younger than her served as drummers in our civil war; wars have been decided by combatants about her age. She's more than old enough to fight as an active combatant.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tzardok]

Agreed. That plus the "up here" comment, come on, it's definitely Eugene.

Cliffport being on top of cliffs, "up here" would seem to be logical parlance. Or maybe it's just north of her hometown.

[Rodin]

"my... family's burden".

I'm taking that as more evidence that this is actually Eugene, who meant to say "my burden".

Yep. I'm fully convinced now.

Looking back from the start of the conversation:

1) Roy says Eugene knows when he's alone, ergo Julia does too. Julia says "Oh. That's obviously what it was." This can be taken as a "Sure, let's go with that" from Eugene.

2) We then have the freak out reaction about how Roy knew that, which makes much more sense if it isn't Julia. Eugene reacting that way about getting out-magic-knowledged by Roy would fit.

3) Then we have Julia being surprised about how much Roy learned at fighter school. Fits for Julia, but it fits even more for Eugene who saw the whole thing as a waste of money and his son throwing his life away. Eugene is in the odd position of being impressed by Roy.

4) Immediately after, Julia is worried about not remembering Roy's admittance day. The real Julia would have jumped straight to snark - Eugene thinks he has slipped up and Roy has figured out he isn't Julia.

5) The "sacrificing a child" argument reads like its an argument between Roy and Eugene directly.

6) "That's easy for you to say!" could be Julia saying she has to pick things up after Roy dies...but it makes more sense for it to be Eugene referring to the Blood Oath. Roy dies, Roy goes to the afterlife. Eugene is still stuck in the clouds.

7) "Being stuck up here" indicates being up in the clouds.

8) The hesitation and word swap on "my family's burden" along with feeling useless. Again, sounds very Eugene.

9) And finally, the crack about Roy being hit in the head too often. Could easily be Julia, but it's exactly the sort of quip I'd expect out of Eugene.

---------

If it was just one or two of the above, I'd say that yeah...we're reading too much into it. But there's a lot of odd notes to this conversation. Weird touches where unimportant bits of the dialogue are being highlighted and the facial expressions aren't quite right.

It's Eugene.

[bunsen_h]

Agreed. That plus the "up here" comment, come on, it's definitely Eugene.

Either it's Eugene screwing up enough to be strangely obvious, or it's someone trying to trick Roy into thinking that it's Eugene masquerading as Julia.

A question for Roy's conscience. He's not going to use a child as bait in his battle plan when the risk is high the child will be killed. Fair enough.

So what if Sunny was a full-grown adult? Would you feel the same way, or would you use our friend Sunny as bait then?

What if we substitute Belkar for Sunny? Bait or no?

I'm just trying to find out if his moral compass allows him to use allies as sacrificial pawns at all, and if he is, what his guidelines are.

My guess is that it would come down to "is this person mature enough to meaningfully consent to what I'm asking of them".

[Wintermoot]

IMO, the line "Being Stuck Up here, unable to contribute in any meaningful way to something's that's my... family's burden" indicates strongly that this is Eugene. the "Up Here" referencing the cloudy wasteland he lives in and the "my... family's burden" was almost saying "my burden" before catching himself. The easy willingness to use Sunny as bait and unable to understand Roy's reluctance. That's a very Eugene attitude.

I don't know what's changed in Eugene to get him to feel more responsible and trying to help. Something beyond just "if I don't do something then I'll be stuck here forever" I hope. It's possible it's like the vampire durkon. Eugene is spending days and week's watching his Son's adventures and growing as a person from watching how he works.

Or maybe he's the "vessel" that Sabine was sent to get.

[Larspcus2]

If Sunny makes an appearance in the battle at all, disabling the anti-magic field will be team Evil's top priority. Redcloak will try to murder Sunny with the first spell he can cast. Xykon will do the same if he's fighting seriously, or if he's enranged by the thought of antimagic. Arguing over whether it's moral to expose Sunny to danger from the bugbear sidekick is missing the forest for the trees.

[Murk]

I'm just trying to find out if his moral compass allows him to use allies as sacrificial pawns at all, and if he is, what his guidelines are.

Presumably, adults wouldn't be "pawns" because they can responsibly consent to the sacrifice, as volunteers.
Whereas children can't responsibly consent as volunteers, because they're children, and they'll do whatever their mom tells them to. Which would indeed make them sacrificial pawns.

We've seen before Roy is not opposed to volunteers sacrificing themselves, so that seems to be the main guideline.

[hroþila]

This strip is a serious blow to the Sabine/Vessel Julia camp, but we'll (I'll) pull through. I agree Julia sounds suspicious here with the "up here" and the "my... family's burden" thing though, that seems to fit Eugene too well.

I giggled a bit because Julia's reasoning comes up with some frequency here, notably when someone was arguing that Roy should just hack through Kudzu if that was what it took to defeat Vamp Durkon and save the world. Like how do you even begin to decide whether it's actuallly necessary or whether you're just sacrificing babies for a fleeting tactical advantage.

Boys younger than her served as drummers in our civil war; wars have been decided by combatants about her age.

And that's bad.

[Fergurg]

I'm with Julia on this one. If the debate was between putting Sunny in harm's way or everybody dies - including Sunny - then it's a clear answer of put Sunny in harm's way.

But it's actually worse than that. The debate is between putting Sunny in harm's way vs everybody that has ever lived has their existence annihilated. No afterlife, just fed to the Snarl. The worst-case scenario of putting Sunny in harm's way, Sunny's death, is still better for her than annihilation.

[Peelee]

I'm with Julia on this one. If the debate was between putting Sunny in harm's way or everybody dies - including Sunny - then it's a clear answer of put Sunny in harm's way.

But it's actually worse than that. The debate is between putting Sunny in harm's way vs everybody that has ever lived has their existence annihilated. No afterlife, just fed to the Snarl. The worst-case scenario of putting Sunny in harm's way, Sunny's death, is still better for her than annihilation.

100% Team Roy. The ends don't justify the means. Ever.

[enq]

Alright, I'm on team "It's Eugene" now. Too many slips, and I feel the "Eugene wouldn't have said x" camp aren't considering well enough what Eugene trying to pretend to be Julia would say. So sayeth I.

Remember that time you were wrong? Man, it sucked, didn't it! You wouldn't want to be wrong again. Therefore, do not disagree with me.

[Reboot]

E again to add: I don't see things Roy's way WRT his sister. Boys younger than her served as drummers in our civil war; wars have been decided by combatants about her age. She's more than old enough to fight as an active combatant.

Leacing aside the whole real-world part that woukd probably get me red-texted...

...she was pretty low level back in Cliffport, much lower even than Minrah, and there's no reason to think she's been power-levelling since at school. She probably couldn't contribute much more than cannon fodder

[locksmith of lo]

oh it's totally Eugene... "up here" and "that's my... family's burden" etc... dead giveaway, pun intended.

[Barstro]

Interesting that the same new evidence that pushes me to the “Eugene” camp has convinced others that it is Julia.

I look forward to the final reveal.