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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Frostmoon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    A corrupt detective, a changeling seducer, a truenaming fiendbinder, a "galaxy brain fighter", a walking example of Kobold nonsense, and an earth-gliding diviner...it's an interesting mix, certainly! :D Quite a few things I didn't expect at all, and it's nice seeing the various paths people took with Cerebrex (be that focusing on the anti-magic side, or the sense gaining, or the prominent skill boosts, or even a bit of strange wording). I was thinking about making some sort of build that used Aggression Mastery as a way to get into rage-focused classes, but I wanted to focus down on the Monster Mash instead, so lol on that. XD Good job to all the chefs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    The other one was super cheeky, but a little bit too much so, even for me. Sybil, from Savage Species, has riddles as a class feature. Solve them and you get free divinations; fail them and you take stat damage. Riddles, of course, are subject to cerebrex's first-level feature, and nothing says you cannot solve your own riddle. So I had this ridiculous scheme cooked up wherein I'd solve my own riddle with a big ol' bonus from the SI, get a free divination spell, get a bonus from Prophet of the Divine (which basically has your god's voice boom out the answer to certain divination spells, awing people who witness it) to the save DC of a compulsion, use suggestion on someone to have them try to solve a different riddle, slap them with a way harder riddle, and then tack Mortalbane and Knowledge Devotion and stuff on the stat damage that they'd take as a result of failing.
    Oh gods. Sybil definitely does seem like a bit of a nightmare to build and play, but man, the idea of just solving your own boosted riddles to get free divination spells is hilarious. XD
    Last edited by Frostmoon; 2022-10-22 at 12:02 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    I'm honestly impressed by how none of the submissions this time are dips. They're all deep into the Ingredient.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    A couple build ideas I had but didn't end up going with:

    Spoiler: Gnome illusionist
    Show
    My initial thought was to go variant illusionist 5 to get Hide as a permanent class skill (check the wording and compare with the variant enchanter, which explicitly gives its skills as wizard class skills only). At level 5 you get your intelligence modifier on Hide, which I'd use to argue Eidetic Memory enhances it. Cerebrex gives quite a few things that are nice for a stealthy character (dex bonuses, blindsight, arguably mindsight immunity) so it seemed like a good fit.

    Race would probably have been tinker gnome (small size +2 dex +2 int babyyy) and the whole thing would've had an industrial espionage vibe. Scry on workshops, steal spells, bop casters with Rage if they run into you. Maybe at higher levels I'd have entered some classic Gnome Wizard Nonsense, like Shadowcraft Mage.


    Spoiler: Archivist
    Show
    Not anything very concrete here, I just thought 'hm, cerebrex gives you Rage and Clairvoyance, are there int-based casters that do not have those already'. Southern Magician isn't as painful to get for a class that otherwise has no requirement feats, and Dark Knowledge has some pretty good synergy with cerebrex.


    Spoiler: Batman!!!
    Show
    Skilled-City Dweller Wild Shape Ranger 5 into Vigilante (CAdv), focusing on intelligence and charisma because wild shape takes care of your physical stats. Turn into a desmodu hunting bat, flit between buildings harassing the cowardly and superstitious criminals of your hometown. Vigilante actually has a pretty solid list (Bard spells, minus conjuration, evocation, enchantment) and the missing schools can be compensated for with Shadow Conjuration and social skills.

    With Quick Hide (cause a diversion to hide as a move action with a +4 bonus), you could pull the classic batman escape, further boosted by Cerebrex's capstone if necessary. Quick Search had some okay intelligence-skill synergy as well. Most importantly, Cerebrex gives you a bunch of Clairvoyance sensors... which let you spot people committing crimes, thereby making them valid targets for the Vigilante's Smite the Guilty. Ranger gives you Track, which goes nicely with Scent (surprised to see no builds use those two together).

    The main issue was the feat-hunger. Vigilante requires Alertness, you really need Extra Wild Shape, but you also gotta get Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft as class skills somewhere, which requires getting Keeper of Forbidden Lore and Knowledge Devotion in the first 10 levels (though you probably wanted Knowledge Devotion anyway ig). I toyed with the idea of making the build an elf to use Aereni focus (higher spellcraft!), and because 'crazy crimefighting elf who lives in a tree that predates the city around it' is evocative, but requirements would've gotten a bit tight.


    Spoiler: Fleshwarper (fave)
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    Cerebrex is one of the few arcane PrCs to give Heal as a class skill. Heal is notably required for the (ill-designed) Fleshwarper, which requires 10 ranks of heal for its prerequisite feat Graft Flesh. There's some ways around the requirement, but they tend to be race-specific (Aereni Focus, glimmerskin halfling, human paragon), incur multiclass penalties (any dip), or require feats (Blood Magus, Divine Oracle). If you're a Changeling Wizard trying to combine the excellent Morphic Familiar with Fleshwarper goodness, what else are you to do?

    The resulting build I came up with was Nax the Brainbraider, Changeling Diviner 5 / Cerebrex 4 / Fleshwarper 3 / Cerebrex +4 / Fleshwarper +4. The build ends up with 15th-level wizard casting and 8th-level spells, three Aberrant Familiar features, two Elder Secrets, Rapid Grafting, and two Graft Masteries, in addition to all the stuff provided by Cerebrex and the shenanigans of Improved + Morphic + Dragon familiar.

    The build misses out on cerebrex capstones, but it emulates them elsewhere (Inscrutable Mind is basically the same as Secret of the Mind Flayer, Neural Glimpse is replicated by the variant Diviner's Prescience, Twist the Neural Skein is bad and should not be replicated).
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2022-10-22 at 04:25 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Good work, contestants!

    I've spent an embarrassing amount of time trying to find a way to do something with appropriate int checks. Skills are easy to pump, pure ability checks not so much. I was sure I could find something that needed puzzle solving as a source if power. I didn't - though I also looked at Sybil, among many other things.
    Screaming defiance with the last breath

    It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.


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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Yeah I've looked at Sybil too but it was hard to squeeze all of this into the build.

    Daremeto mentioned dreamtelling but I'm sad I didn't see it used, I was looking forward to it.

    Is there any judges out there ? Zaq can have another go at rating truenaming stuff haha

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Table!

    Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef Total Place
    Ilias Fessor LE Human Human Paragon 3/Master Inquisitive 2/Assassin 3/Unseen Seer 2/Cerebrex 10
    Tri-Tongued Taylor NE Changeling Changeling Rogue 1/Arcane Stunt Seduction Swashbuckler 4/Mountebank 1/Chameleon 3/Cerebrex 10/Disciple of Baalzebul 1
    Nathaniel TN Illumian Spontaneous Divination Wizard 5/Cerebrex 10/Fiendbinder 5
    Ted TN Human Zhentarim Soldier Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 5/Cultist of the Shattered Peak 5/Factotum 1/Cerebrex 9
    Nivniv TN Dragonwrought Dragonborn Kobold Stalwart Sorcerer 1/Wu Jen 1/Singer of Concordance 3/Mage of the Arcane Order 4/Cerebrex 9/Wyrm Wizard 2
    Lara Mipsholme LE Human Spontaneous Divination Enhanced Awareness Diviner Wizard 5/Cerebrex 10/Earth Dreamer 5

    Is there any judges out there ?
    Me maybe, but I can't promise.
    Last edited by loky1109; 2022-10-22 at 04:55 PM.
    If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro

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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Speaking of stubs that didn't pan out, due to cerebrex's sense focus, I had considered a dish featuring ardent dilettante, but the redundant scent (that unfortunately doesn't say "if you already have scent, extend it 30 feet" like most places that give darkvision) made me hesitant, as did the onerous requirements for more than 3 levels.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by weckar View Post
    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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  8. - Top - End - #68
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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    Speaking of stubs that didn't pan out, ...
    If i had had time last week, i would have finished and submitted this.

    Lesser Tiefling, TN

    Focused Specialist High Conjurer
    1. Wiz: Rapid Summoning, Enhanced Summoning, Spell Focus (conj)
    2. W
    3. W: Extend
    4. W 4
    5. Master Specialist: Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
    6. Paragnostic Apostle: Call of Worlds, Metamagic School Focus
    7. Cerebrex
    8. Cerebrex 2
    9. Malconvoker: Deceptive summons, Darkstalker
    10. Mindbender: Telepathy
    11. Cerebrex 3
    12. Cerebrex 4: Cloudy Conjuration
    13. Malconvoker 2: Planar binding
    14. Cerebrex 5
    15. Cerebrex 6: Summon Elemental- Reserve
    16. Cerebrex 7
    17. Cerebrex 8
    18. Malconvoker 3: Skill Focus (Bluff), Simbul's Spell Matrix
    19. Cerebrex 9
    20. Sanctified One Sanctified Spell

    14th level caster, buffed rapid summons, kinda uses Cerebrex.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    May the real slim judgey please stand up

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Quote Originally Posted by Paragon View Post
    May the real slim judgey please stand up
    Okay, I'm in, but I need at least a week, maybe more.

    And about judging... Can anybody judge ongoing VC, JW and IC E6 rounds?
    Last edited by loky1109; 2022-10-30 at 12:12 AM.
    If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro

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    1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    And about judging... Can anybody judge ongoing VC, JW and IC E6 rounds?
    I got a submission in all three, otherwise I'd judge some.
    Creator of the LA-assignment thread.

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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    GnomePirate

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    Okay, I'm in, but I need at least a week, maybe more.

    And about judging... Can anybody judge ongoing VC, JW and IC E6 rounds?
    I had hoped I could find the time, but I can't.
    Screaming defiance with the last breath

    It would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.


    My judgments and medals!

    The Iron Chef Optimization spreadsheet!

    Song, Sword, and Sorcery: my 5E homebrew half-caster bard (Version 2.0!)

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    I had hoped I could find the time, but I can't.
    You still have a chance. )
    If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro

    My competition's medals.

    Spoiler: For purposes of clarity
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    1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    I started to work on judging. Can promise it'll be very fast, but I hope not stay stuck for too long.
    If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro

    My competition's medals.

    Spoiler: For purposes of clarity
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    1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Thank you very much for your efforts.
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    I started to work on judging. Can promise it'll be very fast, but I hope not stay stuck for too long.
    Hey there Loky,

    Hope everything is going the way you want it to. I'm sending you all the good vibes I can muster :)

    Eager to read you soon !

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Quote Originally Posted by Paragon View Post
    Hey there Loky,

    Hope everything is going the way you want it to. I'm sending you all the good vibes I can muster :)

    Eager to read you soon !
    Real life makes adjustments. Now only one and half entries done. Working on other. Try to do by Sunday.
    If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro

    My competition's medals.

    Spoiler: For purposes of clarity
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    1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    I found I need to refresh my judging criteria.
    Next I found I don't like my power criteria when judging 4 of 6 entries was done.
    But now it's time!

    Spoiler
    Show
    Originality. Start is 3. Most subjective part. I look at races, classes, prestiges, feats and clever tricks. Combo that involves SI may be reviewed in UoSI section.

    Power. Start is 0. I have four parts 1.25 points in each.
    "Magic". Including Sp, Su, psi, martial and any specific abilities your entries have. Variety, amount, metas, other options, etc.
    Offense. How good are you at making damage apart from magic? Attack bonuses, damage, attack options, rider effects, etc.
    Defense. Your hp, saves, AC and other defense options.
    Support. Any "out-​of-combat" things. Being face, scouting, making money, tracking, mobility options etc.

    Elegance. Start is 5. I search for any mistakes, inaccuracies, ambiguity and give you a penalty. In rare cases when I find something pretty clever I can add some bonus.
    TO RAW is always less than RAI. There is no way you could make me believe in d43 damage dice and similar nonsense.
    Cross-​setting materials isn't something harmful until you know when to stop.
    Multiclassing isn't sin, either. Multiclass XP penalty - opposite.
    I don't like missed opportunities. If you take toughness five times it isn't pretty elegant in my book.
    I look at formating. Your entry should be easy to read. All skills in place, all feats clearly came from (regular, bonus, some free, etc.), there are right full sources, etc.

    UoSI. Start is 0.
    Do you qualify for SI? - +1 if all is ok. If it isn't... Well, if issue could be easily solved maybe 0, maybe something between. If issue is unsolved you just get 1 point in UoSI.
    Do you entry SI early? - up to +0.5.
    Do you finish SI? - up to +0.5.
    Do you use all SI abilities (Enigma's Bane, Scent, Aggression Mastery, Symphony of Nerves, Blindsense & Blindsight, Telepathic Immunity, Eidetic Memory, Clairaudience/clairvoyance, Twist the Neural Skein, Neural Glimpse, Inscrutable Mind) at all? - up to +0.25 each.
    Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? - up to +0.5 each.
    It isn't enough just to have, for example, Scent and saying: "It is useful for everybody and for me, too." No, you should have something on top of that, in Scent example it could be Track.
    Combo, in turn, is something that you need to come up with. Synergy of Scent and Track isn't a great find, it is writen directly in their description.

    Do you use SI prerequisites or just take it and forget? - up to +0.25.
    Maybe SI makes your entry worse than it could be without SI? - up to -1.


    And now judging itself!

    Spoiler: Ilias Fessor
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    Spoiler: Originality
    Show
    Start is 3.
    Human? Never seen it before (-0.5)!
    Human paragon... Well, paragon classes aren't things I was expecting very much (+0.25).
    Master Inquisitive? Enter SI via Assassin and Unseen Seer? Unexpected (+1).
    Feats... There are pro (Research, Investigate, Dragonmarks) et contra (Craven, Darkstalker, Martial Study & Stance, Knowledge Devotion). I call it a draw (+0).
    Swordcane? This is really new for me (+0.25)

    I like your fluff (+0.25).

    Total: 4.25

    Spoiler: Power
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Magic. Full Assassin's casting, plus Dragonmarks, plus Zone of truth, plus one stance and one maneuver, plus free Silent Spell. Not bad (+1).
    Offense. Three attacks even only on 20th level. You were not good in direct fight at early levels, but later it was being rectified. Damage with SA is good enough, too. Of course you aren't a competitor for some barb-pouncer, but still well-respected. There are some very useful buffs (+0.75).
    Defense. Poor Fortitude. Not a great amount of hp. Nothing special for AC improvement besides Neural Glimpse, but it anyway isn't great. Your spells do not help much, either. Only +0.25.
    Support. You shine here. Great skillset, Darkstalker, Investigate, Research. And spells: Instant Search, Guidance of the Avatar, FoM, Alter Self, various Invisibilities, Dimension Door. Not all maxed up, but it is worth +1.

    Total: 3

    Spoiler: Elegance
    Show
    Start is 5.
    First, I don't like your skill presentation (-0.25).
    And... That's all I can find. Almost perfect!

    Total: 4.75

    Spoiler: UoSI
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Do you qualify for SI? - Yes (+1). It's more for the Elegance section, but I should mention I like it very much you didn't take Alchemy before entering Assassin!
    Do you entry SI early? - No, it is long way and you have no options to shorten it (+0).
    Do you finish SI? - Yeah (+0.5).
    Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? Do you at least use them?
    Enigma's Bane - Yes (+0.25) and you have nice combos with Investigate and Research (+0.5).
    Scent - you just have it (+0).
    Aggression Mastery - another used ability (+0.25) and another unexpected combo (+0.5).
    Symphony of Nerves - it isn't something mind-blowing, but this ability definitely is used (+0.25).
    Blindsense & Blindsight - you just have it (+0).
    Telepathic Immunity - well, you give me reason to give you +0.1.
    Eidetic Memory - you have enough Int-based skills for me to say: you use this ability - +0.25.
    Clairaudience/clairvoyance - well used (+0.25) with great combo with Brilliant Energy Arrow Death Attack. Well deserved +0.5.
    Twist the Neural Skein - combination with DA is something unique (+0.1).
    Neural Glimpse - +7 on not upped skills? +7 on AC without any other AC improvement? I don't buy it (+0).
    Inscrutable Mind - you just have it (+0).
    Do you use SI prerequisites? - All prereq skills upped to max and you have Magical Appraisal and you have partial prerequisites overlap between SI and Unseen Seer. Plus I like the fact that Cerebrex raises your casting to the apex. I think it is clear +0.25.
    Maybe SI makes your entry worse? - clearly no (-0).

    Total: 4.7

    Total: 16.7


    Spoiler: Tri-Tongued Taylor
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    Spoiler: Originality
    Show
    Start is 3.
    I should agree with you, the main idea of your build isn't expected (+0.5). As like Swashbuckler, Rogue and Mountebank (+0.75). But about changeling and Chameleon I can't agree. It isn't very expected for this particular round, but in my book they are expected by default (-0.25).
    Some of your feats are interesting (+0.25) and Swashbuckler's dead level is a nice finding (+0.25).

    Total: 4.5

    Spoiler: Power
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Magic. You have some from Chameleon at least up to 3rd level (see in the UoSI) or even up to 5th if I will be lenient. But even so, only arcane spells. Yeah, Chameleon's "spell list" is the best spell list, but only arcane limitation is painful (+1).
    Offense. Swashbuckler gave you a good start, free Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike are cool, but later you stalled. Yes, you managed to get a third attack at 19th level, but your damage is how much? 1d6+5 and sometimes +1d6+20 SA? Yeah, Chameleon's spells are good addition, best buff or even some damage if you want. This helps (+0.75).
    Defense. Also isn't your strongest side. Arcane Stunt is cool, but it isn't enough. Saves... Well, they are about normal. Hp doesn't blow my mind. Chameleon again saves the day, but it still can't fully fix all. I give you +0.5 here.
    Support. Yeah! It is yours! All (almost) skills on the planet, Wanderer's Diplomacy, Seduction, Social Intuition, Minor Change Shape, various bonuses to skills. Well done (+1.25).

    Total: 3.5

    Spoiler: Elegance
    Show
    Start is 5.
    For what reason did you take Open-Minded? I understand you need skill points... Wait a minute! You don't! You easily could take this 5 point instead of Autohypnosis, or Balance, or Tumble, or Escape Artist. This is a wasted feat (-0.25).
    I don't like your skill presentation very much. With Able Learner, Open-Minded, many skill-heavy classes I want to see at least how many skill points you have at each level and how many skill points you invest in every skill. I’m not even asking about a full list of skills on every level, not just skills that you rise up (-0.5).
    dead levels web enhancement is good, but link would be better. It is your main feature, present it to me (-0.25).
    Alignment issue (-0.5). Yes, it is solvable, but it still is an issue.
    I don't understand why you took no skill-tricks. They are very tasty for you, Social Recovery for example. I'm surprised (-0).
    You have a Bluff-based build. And during ten levels you didn't max it out! I see you didn't understand how Able Learner works (-0.5).

    I'm not sure what skills are considered class skills exactly.
    Please, ask me (or post a question in the FAQ topic) after revealing.

    Total: 3

    Spoiler: UoSI
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Do you qualify for SI? - Oh... You didn't. Totally.
    You can’t use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option.
    I'll put point on other criteria, but you get straight 1 in UoSI.

    Do you entry SI early? - No.
    Do you finish SI? - Yes.
    Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? Do you at least use them?
    Enigma's Bane - I don't see you use it.
    Scent - emulate darkvision-having humanoid is something. I'd give you sum +0.2 here and in Blindsense & Blindsight.
    Aggression Mastery - nothing special.
    Symphony of Nerves - nothing very special, but at least you have Weapon Finesse.
    Blindsense & Blindsight - see Scent.
    Telepathic Immunity - nothing special.
    Eidetic Memory - well, I see you argue about int-based Bluff and I think somebody could buy it. Plus you have variety of true Int-based skills.
    Clairaudience/clairvoyance - nothing special.
    Twist the Neural Skein - okay, I see strange synergy with Arcane Focus.
    Neural Glimpse - used.
    Inscrutable Mind - there is synergy with False Pretenses.
    Do you use SI prerequisites? - there are some double qualify and almost max prereq skills.
    Maybe SI makes your entry worse? - No.

    Total: 1

    Total: 12


    Spoiler: Nathaniel
    Show
    Spoiler: Originality
    Show
    Start is 3.
    Illumian. I like illumians and don't see them often (+0.25).
    Fiendbinder? You wowed me (+1).
    Spontaneous Diviner generalist Wizard... It isn't an unknown variation, but you didn't try to use it to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster or something like (+0).
    Catalogues of Enlightenment - overused (-0.5). Over feats... Let's say it's a draw.

    Total: 3.75

    Spoiler: Power
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Magic. Definitely you aren't a full wizard and don't have 9th level directly. But you have some workarounds! I give you full 1.25 points here.
    Offense. We both know it isn't yours. You have Knowledge Devotion if you need to hit somebody with a dagger, but that's all,.. if don't count magic. But with magic it is a different case (+0.75).
    Defense. Saves, AC, hp are marginally. Yes, Bulwark of Reality is a good spell, but for somebody who relies on touch spells as much as you it doesn't look enough (+0.25).
    Support. You have a not bad variety of skills, 14 known languages, two Craft Item feats, useful spells, your familiar and minions are worth mentioning, too. And you have a way to get money even while it's debatable (+1).

    Total: 3.25

    Spoiler: Elegance
    Show
    Start is 5.
    Second, Nathaniel has a massive +57 (see Notes & Discussions) to the Truespeak check (at level 17), check that will be opposed by either a Truespeak check (which only the Logokron and Word Archon have trained at +36 and +27 respectively) or … a Charisma check. And since they have to roll a Charisma check, this triggers the “diagram” note in Magic Circle against Evil that increases the DC of the spell by 5 up to 29 (31 for TB).
    No, this doesn't work.
    If the creature tries a Charisma check to break free of the trap (see the lesser planar binding spell), the DC increases by 5
    Creature should use specific "Charisma check to break free of the trap", not just any Charisma check. And even if I get your interpretation. Save comes before Charisma check your talking about. This Charisma check can't affect on the save, even if it is alternativeless option (-0.5).

    Your calculations in the Recharge Higher Order Ability section are generally right, but you forgot one thing:
    Quote Originally Posted by MotP, p. 127
    Strongly Law-Aligned: Nonlawful characters on Mechanus suffer a –2 penalty on all Charisma-, Wisdom-, and Intelligence-based checks.
    It'll cost you -0.25 penalty. I give this penalty to you and don't give other nonlawful Catalogues of Enlightenment users because it looks like you intend to shift onto the Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus every week.

    The “Touch spell combined with Su touch ability from Cerebrex” section
    ...
    2nd Create Magic Tattoo
    Technically you are correct, but... 10 minutes casting time! And giving this spell "touch" range is actually a very bad decision. I don't see this work (-0.25).

    Alter Fortune is a divination spell so Nathaniel can spontaneously cast it should he roll a Nat1 on the Truespeak check.
    What nat1 are you talking about? Skills don't get natural 1s. I don't see why you want to recheck 1 and don't want to recheck, let's say, 3 (-0.25).

    I'd be very glad to see a full list of your known languages since you decided to put some skill points into Speak Language. No penalty, just mention (-0).

    Forgery of Faustian Pacts... I see what you do here. But I don't sure it can be done.
    Mortals must sign in their own blood to render the contract binding.
    I don't see an option here to sign in the blood of another person.
    And even if you forge a pact I don't sure your alignment doesn't switch to LE.
    Plus, I don't think you are first so smart. Devils should have some protection against such fraud.

    I don't see any DM let it fly more than once, maximum twice (-0.5).

    At level 20, you might even be able to sign a Pact with the Tormented Soul bound to you.
    I don't see how. Tormented Soul isn't Devil (-0.25).

    Create Magic Tattoo : Hey, another Int skill that is a prereq for Cerebrex ! I’d let Craft (alchemy) count for this purpose but if your DM doesn’t agree
    I don't. Don't see how alchemy could be connected to the tattooing, and as for another craft with 1 rank... DC 20 with +11 to check isn't guaranteed (-0.25).

    Truename Research and Collector of Stories.
    When you attempt a trained Knowledge check to identify a creature
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.
    I think CoS doesn't work with TR (-0.25).

    Blindsight 60ft joins the fray of the detection modes Nathaniel has access to and he can use them through [...] even Clairaudience/clairvoyance
    No it doesn't (-0.25).
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Unlike other scrying spells, this spell (Clairaudience/clairvoyance) does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it.
    Total: 2.25

    Spoiler: UoSI
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Do you qualify for SI? - Yes (+1).
    Do you entry SI early? - Yes, earliest possible entry (+0.5).
    Do you finish SI? - Yes (+0.5).
    Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? Do you at least use them?
    Enigma's Bane - Truename Research is good use of that (+0.25)
    Scent - you just have it (+0).
    Aggression Mastery - you have some use for that ability (+0.1)
    Symphony of Nerves - you just have it (+0).
    Blindsense & Blindsight - synergy with Scrying spells counts (+0.25).
    Telepathic Immunity - it mostly fluff, but it's something (+0.1).
    Eidetic Memory - very valuable ability for you. It's just numbers, but it's important numbers (+0.25).
    Clairaudience/clairvoyance - you just have it (+0).
    Twist the Neural Skein - you just have it (+0).
    Neural Glimpse - you just have it (+0).
    Inscrutable Mind - you just have it (+0).
    Do you use SI prerequisites? - you max prereq skills, but alchemy, you try to smuggle it for tattooing, but I didn't buy it, of course you use spellcasting. I give you +0.2 points here.
    Maybe SI makes your entry worse? - Every two Cerebrex's levels are +1 to Truespeak, yes, but I could imagine this build like Wizard 5/Cerebrex 6/Fiendbinder 9 and maybe it'd be a better option (-0.25).

    Total: 2.9

    Total: 12.15


    Spoiler: Ted
    Show
    Spoiler: Originality
    Show
    Start is 3.
    Human (-0.5).
    Zhentarim Soldier Sneak Attack Thug 5? I don't expect it (+0.25), while the combo of Zhentarim Soldier and Imperious Command is well known (-0.25).
    Factotum is so so here (+0).
    Cultist of the Shattered Peak? Never heard about it (+1)!
    Able Learner without Chameleon? Mage Slayer? Stand Still? It is slightly weightier than Darkstalker and Spiked Chain on the other hand (+0.25).

    Total: 3.75

    Spoiler: Power
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Magic. It's bad. You have some, but it's worth only +0.25 points.
    Offense. Well, you have some options, your main weapon is good, Mage Slayer and Stand Still are very annoying for spellcasters and you are good at intimidating (while Intimidate isn't very good itself), but you actually don't have damage to talk about. DA is a sorta gamble. I give you +0.5 points.
    Defense. HP is low. AC is low. Saves are almost normal. +0.25 points here
    Support. Trapfinding, good variety of skills, intimidating options. Not bad, but not good either (+0.5).

    Total: 1.5

    Spoiler: Elegance
    Show
    Start is 5.
    Champions of Valor Web Enhancement (Zhentarim Soldier). I wanna see the link (-0.25).
    Your skills' presentation doesn't make my life easier, but you at least gave me Final Skill Ranks (-0.25).
    Aggression Mastery really caught my eye. By touching a target (not a touch attack, just a touch without roll)
    Sorry, but there is no option to touch an unwilling target other than touch attack in the game (-0.25).
    Practiced Spellcaster? Do you really need it? Why is CL 9 so valuable to you? I think this is the waist feat (-0.25).
    You optimize Intimidate and you don't take Never Outnumbered? What (-0.25)?
    You get 4 ranks in Craft (Alchemy) when you don't have any spellcasting. RAW allows you to do this, but it looks inelegant in my eyes (-0.25).
    You didn't qualify for Stand Still, you don't have 13 Str (-0.5).

    Total: 3

    Spoiler: UoSI
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Do you qualify for SI? - Yes (+1).
    Do you entry SI early? - No (+0).
    Do you finish SI? - 9/10 levels means (+0.25).
    Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? Do you at least use them?
    Enigma's Bane - you just have it (+0).
    Scent - you just have it (+0).
    Aggression Mastery - yes, you use it, but very straightforward (+0.1)
    Symphony of Nerves - well-used ability (+0.25).
    Blindsense & Blindsight - you just have it (+0).
    Telepathic Immunity - you just have it (+0).
    Eidetic Memory - you have enough Int-based skills, it's count (+0.25).
    Clairaudience/clairvoyance - you just have it (+0).
    Twist the Neural Skein - you have some use of this ability (+0.25).
    Neural Glimpse - you don't have it at all (+0).
    Inscrutable Mind - you don't have it at all (+0).
    Do you use SI prerequisites? - You even didn't max prerequisite skills apart from Spellcraft and you almost don't rely on your spellcasting. It's +0 points.
    Maybe SI makes your entry worse? - Hm... I think no, no penalty here (-0).

    Total: 2.1

    Total: 10.35


    Spoiler: Nivniv
    Show
    Spoiler: Originality
    Show
    Start is 3.
    Dragonwrought Dragonborn Kobold Sorcerer? Easy -1.
    Wu Jen? Something slightly unexpected (+0.5).
    Mage of the Arcane Order and Wyrm Wizard? Well... not unheard, but not a very frequent guests (+0.25).
    Feats... Nothing wowed me. Plus Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) - overused (-0.5).

    Total: 2.25

    Spoiler: Power
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Magic. You have a good variety of spells up to 7th level with your clever trick! +1.25
    Offense. You aren't a good combatant with your low physical stats and low BAB, but magic of course gives you some valuable alternatives (+0.75).
    Defense. Your hp, AC and two of three saves don't seem like something great and, yes, magic (+0.5).
    Support. You aren't skill-monkey, but manage to do something with your skill-points. Plus Travel Domain spells, plus Alter Self - good (+1).

    Total: 3.5

    Spoiler: Elegance
    Show
    Start is 5.
    First, you have no way to make me believe in this “automatically” nonsense. It just doesn't work. Dixi. It's good for you this isn't your main bet. I thought about 0 total, but your entry works if we just replace SoC levels with Sorcerer levels (-2).
    I like you didn't insist on the Venerable age (-0), but Dragonwrought Dragonborn is a kinda mess. Yeah, it works by RAW, but I see many DMs who will have objections and questions in this regard (-0.25).
    True Neutral Dragonborn. Sorry, but it doesn't work. Dragonborns of Bahamut are Good. Dragonborns of some other God maybe, but RAW them don't exist (-0.25).
    I very much like your "knows" trick, but I don't think every DM lets you make it (-0.25).

    Cross-setting materials... Well. It is, but it isn't a big deal (-0).

    You mixed up your base saves on 18th and 19th levels. Also you mixed up your spell progression. You skipped 17th level (Mage of the Arcane Order 2), but didn't skip 19th (Wyrm Wizard 2) (-0.25).

    I like what you did with Weapon Familiarity and the Rite of Rebirth (+0.25).

    Total: 2.25

    Spoiler: UoSI
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Do you qualify for SI? - You don't qualify for SoC and this means you didn't have 3rd level spells at the point when you enter SI. It can be easily solved so you get your +0.75.
    Do you entry SI early? - Almost as early as it is possible (+0.5).
    Do you finish SI? - 9/10 levels. I give you +0.25.
    Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? Do you at least use them?
    Enigma's Bane - Higher Order power of the Catalogues of Enlightenment counts (+0.25).
    Scent - I see some use with Sudden Widened AoE spells. It isn't enough to name it "combo", but here I give you +0.1.
    Aggression Mastery - you give me nothing here, I give you nothing, too (+0).
    Symphony of Nerves - and again (+0).
    Blindsense & Blindsight - you just have it (+0).
    Telepathic Immunity - more 0s.
    Eidetic Memory - Well, you have enough Int-based skills. That let me say: you use this ability - +0.25.
    Clairaudience/clairvoyance - you just have it (+0).
    Twist the Neural Skein - you definitely use it and have nice combos with it. Take your +0.25 and +0.5 for your combos.
    Neural Glimpse - you don't have it at all (+0).
    Inscrutable Mind - you don't have it at all (+0).
    Do you use SI prerequisites? - Well, at least you are leveling prereq skills, but don't do something special with them. You even didn't mention them anywhere in your entry beyond the build table and of course you use your spellcasting (+0.2).
    Maybe SI makes your entry worse? - actually... not. Your Twist the Neural Skein combo saves the day (-0).
    Total: 3.05

    Total: 11.05


    Spoiler: Lara Mipsholme
    Show
    Spoiler: Originality
    Show
    Start is 3.
    Earth Dreamer is something new (+0.5).
    Diviner Wizard is not (-0.25).
    Feats... Some expected, some unexpected. Draw (+0).
    You are human, right (-0.5)?

    Total: 2.75

    Spoiler: Power
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Magic. You have 8th level and... some spells? Well, you are a wizard and theoretically your repertoire is limited only by money. With Alacritous Cogitation and Spontaneous Divination ACF you are pretty flexible (+1).
    Offense. I think you do something with your spells, but I don't know what exactly. You mentioned Shadow Evocation and that's all. Out of spells your offensive potential is very low. I give you +0.25 points.
    Defense. Again, I think spells help your defense somehow, but without any guidelines I can't evaluate it. +0.25 points for broad potential.
    Support. Here you at least have something apart from Schrödinger's spells. Vatic gaze, Earth Sense, Earth Dreamer's features, Darkstalker, good enough skills. It is worth +1 points.

    Total: 2.5

    Spoiler: Elegance
    Show
    Start is 5.
    First, please, next time give the judge your spells. I penalized you for its absence enough in the Power section, but I should mention this here.
    Your skills presentation is hard to read. At least I can understand how many skill points you put in skills (-0.25).
    I was forced to guess what race you are. For your luck, it was easy (-0).
    Spell Penetration and Greater version? Why? Do you have some troubles with enemies' SR? I don't know, but even if so, you'd better get Practiced Spellcaster. It gives +4 CL for all, not only against SR. Two waisted feats (-0.5).
    Vatic Gaze is a cool feat, but...
    You make a Sense Motive check (DC 5 + target's caster level).
    You have Sense Motive +8. It's a waist (-0.25).

    Generally, your entry looks unfinished. A little here, a little there. I want to give you another -0.5 penalty for this.

    Total: 3.5

    Spoiler: UoSI
    Show
    Start is 0.
    Do you qualify for SI? - Yes (+1).
    Do you entry SI early? - Yes, but there is 5-level gap after 2nd level (+0.4).
    Do you finish SI? - Yes (+0.5).
    Have you found some interesting combos involving SI abilities? Do you at least use them?
    Enigma's Bane - there is some potential synergy between Enigma's Bane and Earth Dreamer's Earth Dream, there is a sentence "receive a short, often cryptic, answer." And if you mention this I'd give you, maybe +0.1, but I found it by myself, so you get +0 points here.
    Scent - you just have it (+0).
    Aggression Mastery - you just have it (+0).
    Symphony of Nerves - you just have it (+0).
    Blindsense & Blindsight - you just have it (+0).
    Telepathic Immunity - you just have it (+0).
    Eidetic Memory - you have some Int-based skills (+0.25).
    Clairaudience/clairvoyance - you did mention synergy between Earth Sight and this ability, but unfortunately "Unlike other scrying spells, this spell does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it." Otherwise, you just have it (+0).
    Twist the Neural Skein - this ability has some synergy with Vatic Gaze. Give you (+0.2).
    Neural Glimpse - well, you can get another +6 to your Sense Motive (+0.1).
    Inscrutable Mind - you just have it (+0).
    Do you use SI prerequisites? - You use spells and you maxed Knowledge (arcana) and almost maxed Spellcraft. Concentration and Alchemy just did their qualification job and abandoned forever (+0.1).
    Maybe SI makes your entry worse? - It looks like it isn't worth 9th level spells (-0.25).

    Total: 2.3

    Total: 11.05


    Table.
    Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef loky1109 Total Place
    Ilias Fessor LE Human Human Paragon 3/Master Inquisitive 2/Assassin 3/Unseen Seer 2/Cerebrex 10 16.70 16.70 1st
    Tri-Tongued Taylor NE Changeling Changeling Rogue 1/Arcane Stunt Seduction Swashbuckler 4/Mountebank 1/Chameleon 3/Cerebrex 10/Disciple of Baalzebul 1 12.00 12.00 3rd
    Nathaniel TN Illumian Spontaneous Divination Wizard 5/Cerebrex 10/Fiendbinder 5 12.15 12.15 2nd
    Ted TN Human Zhentarim Soldier Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 5/Cultist of the Shattered Peak 5/Factotum 1/Cerebrex 9 10.35 10.35 5th
    Nivniv TN Dragonwrought Dragonborn Kobold Stalwart Sorcerer 1/Wu Jen 1/Singer of Concordance 3/Mage of the Arcane Order 4/Cerebrex 9/Wyrm Wizard 2 11.05 11.05 4th
    Lara Mipsholme LE Human Spontaneous Divination Enhanced Awareness Diviner Wizard 5/Cerebrex 10/Earth Dreamer 5 11.05 11.05 4th
    Last edited by loky1109; 2022-11-21 at 08:58 PM.
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    Spoiler: For purposes of clarity
    Show
    1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Thank you very much!

    With American Thanksgiving approaching, I'll give until the 28th for disputes, if any.
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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
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    smile Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Even though I have no dog in this fight, massive thanks to loky1109 for judging! So hard to get judges here right now. We really appreciate the investment of your time.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    No disputes.
    I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.

    Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!

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    Venger, can you be my full-time memory aid please?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Even though I have no dog in this fight, massive thanks to loky1109 for judging! So hard to get judges here right now. We really appreciate the investment of your time.
    Same! I haven't had much time for hobbies lately, and hope I can be more active on the forums again soon. Huge props to loky for stepping up!
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  23. - Top - End - #83
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    A few disputes here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted
    Thanks to Loky for the judgment. Just a quibble:

    Why Practiced Spellcaster? Not for CL 9 (I can feel my magic power score dropping even more from here), but to make up for Mage Slayer's 4 CL decrease in advance. Ted may be a mundane martial wearing a paper-thin caster mask, but he still has to be able to meet the bare minimum standard of casting 3rd level arcane spells to qualify for Cerebrex, and having a caster level of 1 would get in the way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tri-Tongued Taylor
    Good morning, thanks a ton for judging! I have one small dispute.

    You assign a -0.25 penalty for using Open-Minded needlessly.

    You also assign a -0.5 penalty for not maxing out bluff during most of my levels.

    Now, the reason is, I was thinking that skill caps go back to (3+lvl)/2 after the skill becomes cross class, as you say, I did not understand able learner.

    Therefore, I (thought I) need Open Minded to grab all entry skills on the single level when the skill cap is high enough, and I cannot raise them far beforehand. And therefore, I do not max out bluff, as I do not believe I can. These come from the same source.

    But this is one mistake: if I understood able learner better then both problems would be fixed. Therefore, I should get only one penalty.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    Hey Loky,

    Thanks for judging, I just have a few disputes I want to get by you.

    Originality
    I was sure I'd get some love for using Truenaming as a base but maybe you had that put in with Fiendbinder. Like Skill Focus (Truespeak) isn't very much seen anywhere...


    Quote Originally Posted by Loky
    Power
    Defense :Yes, Bulwark of Reality is a good spell, but for somebody who relies on touch spells as much as you it doesn't look enough (+0.25).
    Strongly disagree here. I listed so many touch spells just because of the fact they combo with Cerebrex's Aggression Mastery and Twist the Neural Skein touch attacks and those are respectively once and twice a day so I'd hardly call that "relying heavily" on them. Second, Nathaniel's familiar can do the dirty job for him via Deliver Touch Spells most of the time so he doesn't have to jump into the fray.
    I also did a good job listing all the good touch spells I could possibly find printed by WotC.

    And moreover in the Power section I don't see the fact that Nathaniel has nigh infinite minions under his dominion and if that's not Offense, Defense and Support I don't see what is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Loky
    Elegance
    Planar/Truename Binding : No, this doesn't work.
    While I see why you find a flaw in my reasoning, that "resisting an order" and "breaking free" aren't the same thing per say, Nathaniel eating a -0.5 for this feels rough especially since, even with your interpretation, the optimization effort put into Truenaming does make them unable to refuse to do anything meaning they only have to fail to break free once to be your slave.

    Second, Alter Fortune is here because
    Once you demonstrate mastery of that Truename with a successful Truespeak check, you can compel the creature to perform a service on your behalf if you roll a 1 on the Truespeak check required by this spell, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.
    and Nathaniel doesn't not want that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Create Magic Tattoo
    Technically you are correct, but... 10 minutes casting time! And giving this spell "touch" range is actually a very bad decision. I don't see this work (-0.25).
    Hold up. Is Nathaniel being penalized because you disagree with the range a spell has ? I listed it here in the touch spell section for completion, I didn't think it'd be perceived as an offense touch spell... who would ? And even if you would argue it is, in a "hostage you set free raging on enemies" situation, it can be used as such. It's an additional option (even though unlikely one) so how come Nathaniel's being penalized for more options ?

    As for Craft (Alchemy) not counting, I get the point but having +1 in Craft (anything artsy) +2 Illumian +5 Eidetic Memory +5 Int so it's +13 (no items, no buffs) and you forget the main schtick of the build ; dealing with devils.
    Faustian Pacts can get you more skill points as well as the Extract Gift section which are both flavorful and useful, to get it 100% of the time.
    (It does work because it's already been penalized somewhere else).
    This is another case of "getting penalized for offering more options" which is just weird to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faustian Pacts
    I don't see an option here to sign in the blood of another person.
    And even if you forge a pact I don't sure your alignment doesn't switch to LE.
    Plus, I don't think you are first so smart. Devils should have some protection against such fraud.

    I don't see any DM let it fly more than once, maximum twice (-0.5)
    There is a specific "forge a signature" clause in Forgery skill and the whole point of finding this exploit is to use it. It makes sense with the character's goal and entire construction. As you proved it ("what happens with the alignment ?", "does a Tortured Soul count as a bargainable soul ?", "Devils must have a way around it somehow" etc.), it's all in "ask your DM territory" and a DM that doesn't want it to work won't let it work (that's just how the game is).
    BUT do you realize that with your grading system, I'd have more points if I didn't spend hours optimizing and trying to justify finding a new exploit in a game that's been researched for decades ? This leaves a very sour after taste as it just discourages the exploration of anything new really. That's a free -0.75 points total for something that's entirely a fun yet somewhat unpractical discovery at worst and a new variety of cheese at best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Truename Research and Collector of Stories
    When you attempt a trained Knowledge check to identify a creature
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities.
    I think CoS doesn't work with TR (-0.25).
    How can you come to the conclusion it doesn't work when you quoted the rules that shows it does ? I don't mind you disproving this, just not by using the rules that do the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindsight and Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
    No it doesn't (-0.25).
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Unlike other scrying spells, this spell (Clairaudience/clairvoyance) does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it.
    Yes it does. You see while Scent is Su, Blindsight is Ex and this specifically makes it work here.

    Aggression Mastery - you have some use for that ability (+0.1)
    [...]
    Twist the Neural Skein - you just have it (+0).
    Lastly, Twist the Neural Skein has the same amount of love Aggression Mastery has : touch spells combining with it.

    Thank you for your time, really, and sorry for the sour tone but I don a lot on this build. Having everything click together was fun and satisfying and seeing it taken down like this is frustrating.
    Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    Only playing Tier 1s is like only eating in five-star restaurants [...] sometimes I just want a cheeseburger and some frogurt. Why limit yourself?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    Spoiler: Ted
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ted
    Why Practiced Spellcaster? Not for CL 9 (I can feel my magic power score dropping even more from here), but to make up for Mage Slayer's 4 CL decrease in advance. Ted may be a mundane martial wearing a paper-thin caster mask, but he still has to be able to meet the bare minimum standard of casting 3rd level arcane spells to qualify for Cerebrex, and having a caster level of 1 would get in the way.
    Oh! I see. You really need this feat. Remove -0.25 penalty.
    Elegance changed to 3.25.
    Total changed to 10.6.


    Spoiler: Tri-Tongued Taylor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tri-Tongued Taylor
    But this is one mistake: if I understood able learner better then both problems would be fixed. Therefore, I should get only one penalty.
    Well, I understand that both this mistakes have one root, but I still think they are two separate mistakes. No change.


    Spoiler: Nathaniel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    I was sure I'd get some love for using Truenaming as a base but maybe you had that put in with Fiendbinder.
    You are right. All love put in!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    Like Skill Focus (Truespeak) isn't very much seen anywhere...
    Okay. I looked up your feats one more time and, yes, it is worth something more than a draw. Add +0.25 points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    Strongly disagree here.
    [...]
    And moreover in the Power section I don't see the fact that Nathaniel has nigh infinite minions under his dominion and if that's not Offense, Defense and Support I don't see what is.
    Your minions are already counted in the Support, and while isn't obviously in the Offense, but I see it isn't enough: I somehow skipped nigh infinite numbers of your minions.
    I think I understand and partially agree with your disagreement about the Defense. You still have low saves, AC, hp, but I see you aren't so melee type as I said. I don't see any clear way for your minions to improve you Defense directly, however. I don't count "Defend me" command, because it isn't actually about defense, it's "the fiend attacks the first creature to attack you".
    Add +0.25 points in Defense and +0.25 points in Offense - +0.5 in Power total.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    While I see why you find a flaw in my reasoning, that "resisting an order" and "breaking free" aren't the same thing per say, Nathaniel eating a -0.5 for this feels rough especially since, even with your interpretation, the optimization effort put into Truenaming does make them unable to refuse to do anything meaning they only have to fail to break free once to be your slave.
    Yes, -0.5 is too much. Reduce this penalty to -0.25.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    Second, Alter Fortune is here because [...] and Nathaniel doesn't not want that.
    This is good reasoning. I was expecting something like that. Remove the -0.25 penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    Hold up. Is Nathaniel being penalized because you disagree with the range a spell has?
    No. My disagreement with listed range is just grumbling. I penalized Nathaniel because I don't think Create Magic Tattoo combined with Su touch ability from Cerebrex well. You main point about combining Cerebrex's touches and touch spells was action economy if I understand you correctly. And I agree to do two things at one and the same time is great. But this doesn't work with 10 minute casting Create Magic Tattoo. You have no reasons to combine them. Even if you find way to have profit of using Cerebrex's abilities on the allies.
    So answering your question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    It's an additional option (even though unlikely one) so how come Nathaniel's being penalized for more options?
    Nathaniel's being penalized for an attempt to present as option that really it isn't an option.
    Plus idea of holding the charge of Create Magic Tattoo broke my mind slightly, but as I said it's just grumbling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    As for Craft (Alchemy) not counting, I get the point but having +1 in Craft (anything artsy) +2 Illumian +5 Eidetic Memory +5 Int so it's +13 (no items, no buffs) and you forget the main schtick of the build ; dealing with devils. [...]
    This is another case of "getting penalized for offering more options" which is just weird to me.
    I'd get that another Craft with 1 rank if it was in the entry not as an alternative option "if your DM doesn’t agree" but as a main option, especially since you even didn't mention all languages you get. It clearly wasn't a big waste for you. But you didn't and as a result Nathaniel doesn't have craft skill needed to cast this spell.
    I know this "if it doesn't work when just change it for" things, I made such in my own entries and got my penalties for this and I think these penalties were deserved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    BUT do you realize that with your grading system, I'd have more points if I didn't spend hours optimizing and trying to justify finding a new exploit in a game that's been researched for decades ? This leaves a very sour after taste as it just discourages the exploration of anything new really. That's a free -0.75 points total for something that's entirely a fun yet somewhat unpractical discovery at worst and a new variety of cheese at best.
    Wait a minute? Where -0.75 did you take from? Penalty here was -0.5. Plus I gave you about +0.25 points in the Power section (in Support part).
    Yes, it's all in "ask your DM territory" and that's an issue. We can't be sure it works, can't be sure how it works, can't be sure how many times it will work, but I think we should be sure in real game with real DM it will not work infinitely and without drawbacks. It's very clever TO exploit that even can be limited used in real game. It's very cool! That's why it's only -0.5 (with +0.25 in other places), but not -1 or more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    How can you come to the conclusion it doesn't work when you quoted the rules that shows it does ? I don't mind you disproving this, just not by using the rules that do the opposite.
    I see I need explain myself. My quote from SRD should show that means "identify a creature" in the Collector of Stories description. It's specific Knowledge skill use. Difetent than Knowledge check to discover a personal truename.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    Yes it does. You see while Scent is Su, Blindsight is Ex and this specifically makes it work here.
    My mistake. Sorry. Remove -0.25 penalty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    Lastly, Twist the Neural Skein has the same amount of love Aggression Mastery has : touch spells combining with it.
    Agree. Add +0.1 point in UoSI.


    At the end we have...
    Originality +0.5 points. +0.25 was already mentioned and after reading your dispute and writing my answer I understand all Forgery of Faustian Pacts stuff is worth some points here. Changed to 4.25.

    Power +0.5 points and changed to 3.75.

    Remove -0.75 penalty from Elegance and change it to 3.

    And UoSI get +0.1 points and changed to 3.

    Total score now is 14.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    Thank you for your time, really, and sorry for the sour tone but I don a lot on this build.
    You shouldn't sorry, it's okay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathaniel
    Having everything click together was fun and satisfying and seeing it taken down like this is frustrating.
    I could understand this, you make great creative job and make it very well, but some things from my perspective just don't work or work in slightly (or not slightly) another way. That's why we are discussing here.

    I should say, before all numbers were counted I wanted to give you HM, but you at 2nd place at the end of the day, so this isn't required.


    Updated table.
    Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef loky1109 Total Place
    Ilias Fessor LE Human Human Paragon 3/Master Inquisitive 2/Assassin 3/Unseen Seer 2/Cerebrex 10 16.70 16.70 1st
    Tri-Tongued Taylor NE Changeling Changeling Rogue 1/Arcane Stunt Seduction Swashbuckler 4/Mountebank 1/Chameleon 3/Cerebrex 10/Disciple of Baalzebul 1 12.00 12.00 3rd
    Nathaniel TN Illumian Spontaneous Divination Wizard 5/Cerebrex 10/Fiendbinder 5 14.00 14.00 2nd
    Ted TN Human Zhentarim Soldier Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 5/Cultist of the Shattered Peak 5/Factotum 1/Cerebrex 9 10.60 10.60 5th
    Nivniv TN Dragonwrought Dragonborn Kobold Stalwart Sorcerer 1/Wu Jen 1/Singer of Concordance 3/Mage of the Arcane Order 4/Cerebrex 9/Wyrm Wizard 2 11.05 11.05 4th
    Lara Mipsholme LE Human Spontaneous Divination Enhanced Awareness Diviner Wizard 5/Cerebrex 10/Earth Dreamer 5 11.05 11.05 4th
    Last edited by loky1109; 2022-11-22 at 08:55 PM.
    If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro

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    Spoiler: For purposes of clarity
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    1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.

  25. - Top - End - #85
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    No disputes here.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    It's time for the reveal!

    Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef loky1109 Total Place
    Ilias Fessor LE Human Human Paragon 3/Master Inquisitive 2/Assassin 3/Unseen Seer 2/Cerebrex 10 Inevitability 16.70 16.70 1st
    Tri-Tongued Taylor NE Changeling Changeling Rogue 1/Arcane Stunt Seduction Swashbuckler 4/Mountebank 1/Chameleon 3/Cerebrex 10/Disciple of Baalzebul 1 Inevitability 12.00 12.00 3rd
    Nathaniel TN Illumian Spontaneous Divination Wizard 5/Cerebrex 10/Fiendbinder 5 Paragon 14.00 14.00 2nd
    Ted TN Human Zhentarim Soldier Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 5/Cultist of the Shattered Peak 5/Factotum 1/Cerebrex 9 Defeated Victor 10.60 10.60 5th
    Nivniv TN Dragonwrought Dragonborn Kobold Stalwart Sorcerer 1/Wu Jen 1/Singer of Concordance 3/Mage of the Arcane Order 4/Cerebrex 9/Wyrm Wizard 2 WhamBamSam 11.05 11.05 4th
    Lara Mipsholme LE Human Spontaneous Divination Enhanced Awareness Diviner Wizard 5/Cerebrex 10/Earth Dreamer 5 Venger 11.05 11.05 4th

    Congratulations on an excellent round. New round up shortly.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground CXXII

    For all that cerebrex looks like an useless class, I'm really happy with how many uses I found for it. Looking back, the blunder with Taylor's prerequisites was something I should have spotted, but my other entry winning by such a large margin makes more than up for it. Looking forward to the next round!
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