Utropia

[AvatarVecna]

Oh cool, full page to catch up on!

I'm not going to stake the game at it, but it doesn't feel like a wolfy power. So I'd say, read it in his favor, but don't allow this to be the only thing to get to a Town read.
For the reasoning, it is going to draw attention. A significant amount of it to boot. I don't think this is what a wolf would like to get at day 1, where there is not much concrete to go by.

mmm don't like this

Welcome to our games! Even though "The Cape" is almost guaranteed Town I didn't get called on for forcing my team. Though, I gotta say the fact that 2 of your 3 choices were villains is a little concerning...

don't like this either

For as much as you can trust me, the power auto activates and shares that I am Town at the start of the game. When I woke up and saw it wasn't public I asked about it.

Plausible.

While keeping an eye on people who post little is important, I wanna stress how early in this game we are? It started 17 hours ago: 8 of which I was sleeping and then about 7 of which I was working. Sometimes work is slow enough where I can check the thread and post but I'm betting others have barely had time to interact with the thread because life.

Seconded. I think it's rather early for ISOs, even if I can understand the desire to get stuff done before the post count gets overwhelming.

Finally, Snow, I believe Flat also has no posts this game but is in it.

She already said that. She got it right, not wrong as you're implying.

On an unrelated note, while I don't want to mass quote rogans last major talk about me and I don't really have to much time before I must go to a several hour long prior commitment, I will say here and now that Rogan seems to be increasingly misinterpreting the things I've said and sentiments I've expressed and construing them into the negative. He hasn't said anything conclusive or overly accusatory yet but my gut tells me Rogan will build to trying a wolf case for me by slowly building up on evidence based on misinterpretations. Something Rogan did not do last Upick even when he could have, a note I make because then he was town. In fact I played the same way then as I do now and recieved none of these comments, though perhaps it's because now we directly converse, I cannot say.
What I can say is Vote Rogan
I wanted to avoid voting for awhile but the way things have been building seems Wolfy enough for him to get my vote. Maybe I'm being reactionary, but I'm trusting my gut, and my gut says he's fishy.

*makes notes*

moonfly, as it seems both of us are in the same boat, can you explain why your gut is fishy? In the same situation, I am more inclined to back off Rogan for now while it seems like you’re doubling down.

*makes notes*

And some questions: moonfly, why did you want to wait to vote? Also could you give an example of that "wolves gradually building up pressure" thing? Rogan, what is your read on moonfly and why?

Good night everyone.

Ugh, both the quote and the reply are doing the thing where they don't use paragraph line breaks and it's making my vision swim. Nope nope nope will do this some other time.

Another game where AV will get to keep solving after dying

Oh man I wish I'd thought of that. But nah, not unless something really screwy happens.

Did AV switch to Kraken at some point? It's entirely possible that I just missed it, but if so they didn't cross out their earlier vote, at least.

Don't recall doing so, no. I'll do a proper vote count once I finish catching up.

Not really? It's D1 so like 90 percent is pretty much bound to be weird gut feelings and vibes. Something felt off about a few of Rogan's posts (I'll go over them again and see if I get can more specific) and I could see the whole mayor and names of various color as a diversion tactic (the fact that AV seemed so sure it isn't made me a little worried about them too, but I'm always at least a little worried about AV).

As for the towny vibes, it was mostly that I (thought I) recognized the frustrated tone from both Rogan and Moonfly as how I feel when I'm town and people just aren't getting/trusting me.

So yeah. Very weak in both cases, but again, it's D1 so I wouldn't really expect anything else.

I'm not sure why you got the impression I think Rogan definitely has a power related to his color? I was explaining to newer players why people would be worried about colored words, which is that "they think it might be real". I think Rogan is bluffing, I just don't know if it's a bluff or a double bluff. It's some kind of bait though.

Someone said something earlier about how it leans when someone forces this kinda thing to get spelled out.

Yeah, I guess I can see your point. I focused more on the part that it's coming from Cao and the suspiciously specific denial about involvement in the mayor's death, but I suppose the part about Cao being town does seem like fairly unambiguous narration.

Batcathat

[bladescape]

I only just realised this was here. On vacation as warned so will only have 10 minutes to quickly try and grab something lemme read.

[Let'sGetKraken]

moonfly read is pending their responses to my questions. Leaving my vote on Kraken unless anyone has good reasons to not kill them, since he's (I think) the counterwagon to Rogan, who I definitely don't want to kill.

Speaking of Kraken, the next step is to dig into my "I forgot this person exists" pile (sorry to people in there; nothing personal, just my tentative grasp of gamestate rn).

You in particular should understand why killing me D1 would be a waste of this valuable information-gathering opportunity. I'd suggest you move your vote elsewhere.

[bladescape]

Bladescape

and hello to everybody else as well

Have only read half of posts up till now, but if we're going to try to vote the narrator then I'm in favour of doing so now rather than at the end of the game. I'm still traumatised.

</3

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Yeah, as long as we don't know a) when gac will resurrect b) how we can stop/delay that (if at all) c) what happens when he wins and/or uses Deus Ex Machina, we can't really do anything on tha matter but speculate wildly (which is fun, as long as it doesn't distract us from speculating wildly about the wolves).

Electing a new mayor does sound fun though. If nothing else, it'll be entertainingly awkward when gac returns to life and someone's sitting in his office.

Bladescape for mayor.

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There's a really dumb reason Ripptor is just town btw.

[3SecondCultist]

Oh, and PGtE is A Practical Guide to Evil, a (very good) completed fantasy web serial. I have actually been toying with the idea of running a game based around that for a while, but haven't properly worked out the concepts.

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Yeah, I am failing to make up my mind on BCH. I can kind of force a townlean out of their recent posting now they're actually taking stances and can see my concerns being explained by just... not fixating on one player and tunneling them in the same way as some of their recent town games (me in Wilder West and Tarot Club, Elenna in PJ2). But on the other hand maybe the fact they're not doing that is wolfy in itself?

moonfly read is pending their responses to my questions. Leaving my vote on Kraken unless anyone has good reasons to not kill them, since he's (I think) the counterwagon to Rogan, who I definitely don't want to kill.

Speaking of Kraken, the next step is to dig into my "I forgot this person exists" pile (sorry to people in there; nothing personal, just my tentative grasp of gamestate rn).

Regarding PGtE: I am absolutely ****ing there if you run one. Like, sign me up twice.

Between BCH and Kraken, I do think now that we're halfway through D1 the votes are going to start to matter more. We're entering the wagon-tunnel; there is an increasing chance that votes for people will stick since people are busy or what have you. I pushed hard for Kraken early, mostly to force his hand into revealing what he's got because the way he does so is very telling on his role alignment to me. He hasn't tried to make any big defenses, and has instead rather bluntly referred to why people shouldn't question it.

But I wanted to talk about BCH! I am getting a vague townlean on them as well; the stances they've taken would make more sense to me if they are town than scum. If they are wolves, I don't see them paired with anyone just yet. There are absolutely too many unknown factors (read: players I've never actually played with) for me to come to any conclusions yet for BCH.

I guess I will vote them as Mayor as well.

You in particular should understand why killing me D1 would be a waste of this valuable information-gathering opportunity. I'd suggest you move your vote elsewhere.

This is the second time Kraken has referred to an understanding of why we shouldn't vote him.

Snow or Kraken, please elaborate. I don't think this overtly pairs you, but taken without comment I think it makes one or both of you look worse than you currently should. If Snowblaze knows or has been told Kraken's power, then that should be on record (though I don't think the tropes or powers themselves ought to be expounded on, for fear of wolves targeting either for N1 kill).

[bladescape]

To be fair, Blades was exceptionally quiet last game because he was busy with the championship and he got killed n1. A silent bladescape is not his usual style. Being a cryptic <insert slang for illegitimate child here> is. Which is not meant to offend and I think Blades won't be offended by this. If you are, sorry.

I revel in being a cryptic <Insert explicative here>, so no issues.

Also will be quiet this game probably because literally travelling and seeing new places.

[Batcathat]

I'm not sure why you got the impression I think Rogan definitely has a power related to his color? I was explaining to newer players why people would be worried about colored words, which is that "they think it might be real". I think Rogan is bluffing, I just don't know if it's a bluff or a double bluff. It's some kind of bait though.

Rereading a few of the posts in question, I think I might've read them as more defensive of Rogan than was intended, but I'll have to wait until I have time to go through all of that part again until I make up my mind one way or the other.

Batcathat

I don't really see the connection between my comment about Cao and voting me.

[bladescape]

I don't have time to finish catching up y'all post too much

Flat_footed because I'm the only one allowed to be afk.

I'll catch up further when I'm home tonight hopefully.

[Rogan]

I know. Hence "turn of phrase".



Just don't expect useful answers. That way you might end up pleasantly surprised.

Ah, I see. Sorry for the confusion.

Kind of agree. It can be hard to get useful answers, but it is possible. The trick is asking the right kind of questions. I think he is unlikely to give a straightforward answer to a question like: Do you think AV is town?

Hey, let me check my theory right now:
Book? What kind of question would you feel comfortable about?

Heck, even Seer results are hard to confirm without a death reveal (Fools, Vortexers and fakeclaims are a thing, after all).

As for thoughts of relevant things going on, I do not want Rogan lynched right now due to an assumption about his powers and how it is more likely to belong to Town.

True. All of them can happen. And if they do? That's some additional information for everyone about the kind of powers in the game. Or connections between the players, in case of fake claims. And this can also give you some insight into the wolves powers, which is always nice.
But public speculations about those things should wait until they are relevant.

The same thing is true about my own power, but I think we're in agreement here.

I also think that everyone should come to a conclusion on whether to trust my alignment reveal sooner rather than later (probably by the end of Day 2?) so that we're clear on if I'm trustworthy or not.

Again, I'm all for don't kill Rogan or the Cape just yet.

This "just yet", does this mean you actually distrust us, but want to give the benefit of doubt so we might be able to present evidence for our trustworthiness?

I mean, like, I end up on the receiving end of stuff like that a lot, and it's mostly Town against Town with the dogs giggling safe in their doghouse.

*nodding along, being biased cause it helps me*
Anybody else willing to share their experiences?

#VoteGreen? Pretty please?

How could I resist such a nice request?
Metastachydium for Mayor and a green future!

Of course. It's still less than you normally churn out was the drive of my point.

Might be a fair point. Can't really judge for myself.

Like I said, I've got a bad case of Tall Poppy Paranoia, especially when it comes to AV or Snow.

Not going to like it, but it's not something I can do anything about. It's not my responsibility either. Plus, I'm probably the polar opposite, trusting Snow far easier than I should.
Guess we all got our small problems.

I'm no expert on dogs (I've never been one, for starters), but… Is that a thing?

Not necessarily all the time, but it definitely can happen that a new wolf starts by asking in the wolf chat for instructions / suggestions.

Sad, but true.

I am indeed referring to Moonfly.

Thanks, no more questions to these from my side.

The short version is that I found AV's argument regarding your color use somewhat out of character. It wasn't an unreasonable argument, so it's hardly a certainty even if you do flip wolf, but I thought it was worth noting. Yes, I suppose AV flipping wolf would make you a little wolfier (but again, it's an admittedly weak argument).

I think in my wolf games with AV I've not interacted that much which him. But I guess I should read LoveLetter again, to see if my perception is off, which is entirely possible.
For a game where wolf!AV was strongly agreeing with me and defending me from neutal!Taffi, see Fallout 2. Of course the situation was different, since it was a later day and AVs time was running short.

So I see your point. I know it's false in this specific case and I feel like it's false in a general case as well, but since my own perception is inevitably off, I'll have to leave this out to some more neutral judges. Which includes you, of course.

Do you think Cultist backing off from voting you makes him more or less likely to be a wolf and why?

That's hard to say. I'm going with "slightly more likely" since wolf!him would know I'm innocent and could very well be afraid of getting accused for lynching me while tagging along, not really building an own case or expanding the previous. He got called out for this, after all.

Sure, Snow made some good points, but I don't think her flipping neutral gave us much intel about anyone else, since both town and wolves could've had reason to vote her. And yes, obviously no one knew that in advance. Don't get me wrong, lynching her was good for town since she was an SK in the making, but it didn't give us a lot to go on.

Before sending this, I realized that talking about a previous game with no concrete connection to this case is probably not going to be helpful. I'm going to post my thoughts anyway, but feel free to ignore it unless you think it's important or is applicable in this game.

Spoiler: Tangent

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Yeah, but how is lynching SK!Snow worse in regards to Intel than her flipping town?
It would be worse if a significant number of players had commented on the possibility of her being a SK in advance, but without this?
Town was going after her for flimsy reasons, wolves were going after her cause the alternatives were wolves. Especially a comment like "Yeah, I don't actually think she's a wolf, but let's lynch her regardless" is a bad point, no matter if she flips neutral or town.

[JeenLeen]

I kinda feel like shifting my vote, but I like the off-chance that the person Cao votes for is a wolf and that vindicates Cao.
Having trouble getting a solid opinion on the much-talkers, but I'm glad y'all are talking; just too busy to really take the time to comprehend everything.

I don't have time to finish catching up y'all post too much

Flat_footed because I'm the only one allowed to be afk.

I'll catch up further when I'm home tonight hopefully.

Honestly, flat_footed has been relatively active for D1 for him, and he usually only does that when he's a wolf with a wagon building up on him.
Don't know if it's random chance he got the time to post, he's trying to be a productive townie, or trying to be a wolf not playing like his usual wolf-game... but it gives him a little towncred to me.

[AvatarVecna]

Spoiler: votes

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Persolus

Let'sGetKraken

Snowblaze

Batcathat

Let'sGetKraken

Book Wombat

Zelphas

Rogan

Rogan

CaoimhinTheCape

Let's Get Kraken

Rogan

Moonfly

Batcathat

Flat_footed

Persolus: Book Wombat
Let'sGetKraken: Snowblaze, JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
Batcathat: Xihirli, AvatarVecna
Book Wombat: Persolus
Zelphas: Ripptor
Rogan: Let'sGetKraken, Batcathat, moonfly7
CaoimhinTheCape: Zelphas
moonfly7: Taffimai
flat_footed: bladescape

Not voting: 3SecondCultist, flat_footed, Rogan

Presumably, wolves and town are assigned powers similarly. There is no strong reason to believe it's true, but it could be.

Not a vote but found this while looking for votes and mmmmm don't like it one bit. These sentences are back to back: "wolves and town are probably assigned powers similarly" as conclusion, with the argument being "it might be true"? Mmmmmm nope.

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Rereading a few of the posts in question, I think I might've read them as more defensive of Rogan than was intended, but I'll have to wait until I have time to go through all of that part again until I make up my mind one way or the other.



I don't really see the connection between my comment about Cao and voting me.

OOC behavior, lack of equivocation.

[moonfly7]

O...kay. Any chance you can elaborate on either the "towny vibes" or the "bad feelings", and on how you're deciding which is stronger?

moonfly, what is your read on me and why?

My read right now? You seem like your trying to legitimately push the discussion and play the game. You appear to be trying to actively solve the issues and even work out whatever the heck the me and Rogan thing is. I want to give you a town lean, but I know your slippery as a wolf so I think all I can say is that your pushing the discussion and being helpful, without directly tripping my suspicion.

Not really? It's D1 so like 90 percent is pretty much bound to be weird gut feelings and vibes. Something felt off about a few of Rogan's posts (I'll go over them again and see if I get can more specific) and I could see the whole mayor and names of various color as a diversion tactic (the fact that AV seemed so sure it isn't made me a little worried about them too, but I'm always at least a little worried about AV).

As for the towny vibes, it was mostly that I (thought I) recognized the frustrated tone from both Rogan and Moonfly as how I feel when I'm town and people just aren't getting/trusting me.

So yeah. Very weak in both cases, but again, it's D1 so I wouldn't really expect anything else.

Yeah, even as I reread stuff today, and rogans newest post, I'm feeling like the actual issues discussed clearly matter to Rogan. So at the very least his concerns and opinions of how my playstyle effects the game atmosphere are genuine and that part of the discussion is real. Kinda reminds me of my argument with Captain Cap last Upick in a lot of ways. However that being said, parts of his readings just feel off, some are clearly his feelings and concerns and some feel like he stretched the scope of those just a little to make them feel more accusatory. But also, I'm a paranoid boy so I could just be miss reading passion. I'm not taking back my Rogan vote for now, but rereading it all after a nice sleep has me think we might just both have been passionate about our opinions. Though I'll regret that if he turns out to be a wolf, but I'll also regret it if I kill a powerful towny, which if he is town Rogan might be.

General call for thoughts on BCH. Is my point against them valid? Are there reasons I'm missing to townread them?

I would absolutely be Suspicious of BCH, if it weren't for a comment someone made that it's normal to flipflop for him. I personally am not happy I listened to that because it breaks my own policy of "don't assume people telling you how a player normally acts is truthful" since it's to easy to fake. So I can't give you a solid reason to town read besides providing the above note that "some people think it's normal".

That's an unfortunate truth regarding your history. But let's hope the best.

The power was discussed a bit, but without reaching a consensus in my mind. At best, it's a "We don't know but can't to much about this". Personally, I don't think it will be an universal bad thing. I don't think your suggestions have cropped out before.
Related to number 2: Some players, including but not limited to AV and me, have shared their unused trope. Also, multiple players have got a role which is a combination of two tropes. The first part would be simply uncomfortable for those who shared, but the second point seems to point against your theory.



I've snipped parts of this post, but I think it's still decently long.
I like the point about Persolus. +1, town points for both of them.
I don't think Bat is a Jester type, but it doesn't feel completely out of the blue to ask.

Awww... The beauty and the beast, I'm totally going to ignore every other possibility and pretend that you wanted to be my love-interest (see my Discord handle) . Please don't take this away from me!

I like the angle of "This is more fitting to you". Of course, that's assuming Cao actually made a choice beyond picking the tropes, but this feels more likely for a wolf/neutral power (as in, I don't think a wolf would be forced to be in the open like that, but might have the option to do so).

*nodding along to the DEM explanation*

I think it's about the votes as a possible unpairing, but this might be me imagining things. So yeah, please elaborate.

I kind of did. There was the discussion about the Mayor and if his DEM power. I suggested that electing a new mayor might be a way to influence things. However I'm not running for mayor myself and I'm not counting the votes. Currently my vote is for Batcathat, cause I've found his campaign button funny. I've stated my intent of changing this vote at one point or two, in response to other posts, but all in all, I don't put much attention on this. It's a nice little detail and I'm curios to see if gac will react to this in any way, but it's more of a 'have fun' part as a 'that's very helpful'. I also don't think it's harmful either.

Just going to say, I whole-heartedly agree with the point about tunnels and wolves having a harder time faking reads than town getting them organically.

While I didn't get to the same conclusion about Moonfly, I think I can follow the thought process.

Interesting angle on Ripptor. I think giving those town points is deserved.

I would have preferred to avoid this, but yeah. That's basically my theory about Kraken. He said lynching him would give hardly any intelligence. The only thing we would learn is that he had an extra live. But that's a power with no connection to alignment at all, so we would have a day with no real gains.
By remaining vague about this theory, I had hoped for the wolves to waste a NK on Kraken, thinking he had some great power for town. With the theory out in the open, that's less likely to happen. Of course, it still could be a wrong theory and it might be for the best if Kraken doesn't comment on this so it remains unclear, but feel free to present advantages of him confirming things or disadvantages of keeping silent, so he can make an informed decision.

TL;DR
Taffi raises some very good points and a few where I Disagree. But it all feels organic, so she gets a firm town lean for the moment.




To be similar clear:
I don't think you have an intention of attacking me as a person. The 'like or dislike' part gets some lesser support. If you were a wolf, I absolutely would expect you to try to be liked in order to avoid negative attention. But I'm not accusing you of doing this either.
However, I stand by my point that parts of your game play actively make this less enjoyable for me. This doesn't make your play evil or badwrongfun. You don't need to change if you think your style is more enjoyable for you or better at finding wolves. You should simply know about the impression you create in me.

For some examples (unfortunately without quotes at the moment)
The neutral business, which I've already explained.
Your "don't use green texts, this might help Rogan somehow". This feels more like "stop having fun" than a valid concern. Not exactly stopping discussion, but trying to prevent a specific kind of action while taking a position of authority.
Your "don't share how many tropes you got, I'll read you as wolf if you do". Again, it might be more of a semantic problem, where you take a strong position and expect provoke reactions this way, without necessarily believing in this position.
Also "Don't avoid going at people for being talkative". It's significantly easier to avoid attention by being silent, which my stance wants to avoid. I detest the notion of "this guy talks a lot, let's kill him cause there will be many positions we can analyze with knowledge of the alignment" That's not your position. But it crops up all the time. And your statements can be used as support for this.

By basically saying "I don't care what you say, I'll always pick it apart, searching for the worst possible meaning" you might encourage people to be silent in order to avoid this treatment.
I'm going for a more open minded and encouraging approach. I'll try to see things in a positive light. I might be too close at this trusting side and giving benefit of doubts. You are, in my opinion, definitely too close to the needles paranoia side.




Your list is off a bit. You've got me voting for Snows lynch and also got me at no vote.
I am not and never have been during this match voting to kill Snow.
My votes are: keep Snow alive (green), Bat for mayor (blue) and no red lynch vote.

I guess you copy pasted and modified an old count by Cao, where my green vote for Snow was included in bold (or italic? Something like that) but didn't change the number of votes in either direction. So I think you've made an honest mistake. But it's a mistake and I'd like to have this fixed.

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While such a fake political shouting match might be fun, I don't think this would be a way to move the game forward.

Can you please clarify who "he" is in your last sentence of the Moonfly block?
I think it's Moony, but since you mentioned me as well, it's slightly ambitious for me. Thanks in advance.

Can you elaborate why Wolf!Rogan makes AV more likely to be a wolf? Is the same thing true in reverse (so would wolf!AV in your eyes increase the likelihood of wolf!me)?

I agree with your statement about Kraken und 3Sec. I think I've already said that much (not meant as a criticism, merely an observation). Out of these two, I've got a significantly worse impression from 3Sec.

I think I disagree that Snow being neutral limited the Intel gained that significantly. She was counterwagon to a wolf and made a case to wagon another wolf. So she was to a good part acting in towns interest. And nobody knew she would be neutral beforehand.



Hah, funny pick. And I'm glad you liked the outcome. (I don't think anybody complained about their powers by now, so good job gac!)

Do you regret sharing this trope after reading up flats theory below?



I don't recall anybody claiming only once trope, no.

My power is not tied to an alignment, so I don't have any special insights in this matter.
I think, if there are two kills in the night, powers were given out after alignment, because a wolf vig to double the killing power of this team would be overpowered.



That's an excellent observation.
I still don't care too much about spilling the beans about my discarded card. Anybody feeling differently?

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Spoiler: Tangent

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What's PGtE? I can't place this abbreviation right now.

Explanation recieved, I don't want to appear flip floppy, nor an I sure you aren't a wolf, but I'm pretty sure we both just cared about the topic we discussed, I totally get how my playstyle might rub you the wrong way. I still am getting weird vibes, but I'm back into "suspicious but not sure" territory, instead of my previous "not sure but there's enough to vote wolf" opinion.

Yeah, I have had a ridiculously busy morning, hence the lack of recent posts.

Anyway, sorry, I meant "moonfly's response to the thing Taffimai pointed out about their Rogan progression" with the bolded. Wasn't too clear, rereading.

I will add "ISO BCH" to my list, but it's a long list and an increasingly short amount of time so no promise that I'll ever actually get to it.

No offence to Zelphas, but... he's not really the person coming up with strategies in wolfchat. In Wolf Coin I was doing 90+% of that (though granted he was busy irl at the time.)

Oh, and PGtE is A Practical Guide to Evil, a (very good) completed fantasy web serial. I have actually been toying with the idea of running a game based around that for a while, but haven't properly worked out the concepts.

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Yeah, I am failing to make up my mind on BCH. I can kind of force a townlean out of their recent posting now they're actually taking stances and can see my concerns being explained by just... not fixating on one player and tunneling them in the same way as some of their recent town games (me in Wilder West and Tarot Club, Elenna in PJ2). But on the other hand maybe the fact they're not doing that is wolfy in itself?

moonfly read is pending their responses to my questions. Leaving my vote on Kraken unless anyone has good reasons to not kill them, since he's (I think) the counterwagon to Rogan, who I definitely don't want to kill.

Speaking of Kraken, the next step is to dig into my "I forgot this person exists" pile (sorry to people in there; nothing personal, just my tentative grasp of gamestate rn).

So! Let's get my read on taffimai's post done so the good snow can give me a read:
To start off, it should be noted that I am shifty and suspicious and have been since game start. I trust nothing and question everything, and I will raise issues about anything that's vaguely suspicious even if I'm not super committed to or convinced by the stuff myself, as Rogan has pointed out. Quite frankly I can't blame someone for assuming I'm a wolf sewing discord, but this is just how I play. It's more paranoia than my old style after I trusted both Cao and then Snow last Upick and that ended horribly. I'm naturally trusting, I just want to believe people are helping, and that hurts me here. My solution is to force so much distrust and paranoia on myself that those incidents can't repeat.

Now that was a long way of saying I can't blame taff, and I think most of her suspicion was based on my erratic behavior, but the main actual ascension of her post was that "you could be a wolf tunneling on someone, and I don't think your reasons felt natural or like real reasons, and the fact you didn't commit sooner is wolfy" more or less.
My response to this is that realistically all we have on day one is vibes, and I went hard on vibes before and got burned. If you feel like I don't have good reasons, welp, nobody really does. Someone ran a train on a couple people for a bit for using a random generator and sticking with it. We're shooting at wind here. The reason I was hesitant is because I know that day one votes aren't accurate normally, so I tried to be cautious, as stated in my own posts I was hesitant to vote Rogan, and then I went and voted later after his posts about me gave me more feelings of something being off, and I thought it could be a wolf strat.
Now I'm not so sure. I kinda think it's weird Rogan got a wagon long before I joined it, but those people had their own serious reasons.
My problem now is that I'm confident at least that Rogan 100% was genuine for at least most of our discussions revolving the way we both play. I'm not sure that clears him, but it does put the reads I had into a different light that could lead to my vote shifting, again.
My problem compounds because Snow, you yourself have made a decent argument that Cao was mechanically cleared as town by that narrator post. I'm not sure if he was or not, but I believe there's enough doubt to make us not lynch him for now, especially since he might have some kind of night vig. Power as Town Hero.

So I have no idea who to vote for anymore if I take my vote off Rogan. Which I might do. Which inevitably will cause someone to say "changing now looks wolfy" and then I will die because let's face it, not a ton of super good wagons yet. Though do note that since I was literally never the reason anyone voted Rogan, his vote might still stay mostly the same.

Final note before I go take a midterm:
Me saying we shouldn't talk about our powers has been used as an example of suspicious behavior, I'd argue that the wolves would benefit more from day one power info than we would, better to save it for later on. Like day two or three. I ask you this: what kinda wolf tells everyone "hey, we shouldn't tell the wolves what we can do since it's early game and any power and role info could help them." I'd say a stupid one since that would limit information. But maybe I'm wrong, only time I was wolf we didn't have a chat and I died like night two.

[Xihirli]

OOC behavior, lack of equivocation.

Yeah, gotta be careful about that BCH. The trick is to cultivate a personality where you're ALWAYS in character because there are no depths you cannot sink to.

Snowblaze, I promise to kill you last when I betray you all.
ahem
I mean good morning.

[Rogan]

Just popping in to say that I have been reading along but if I am quieter today that is because I’m slammed at work. The usual RL barnacle over here!

One thing of substance is that I am currently at a no-vote. Right now I’m willing to let the wagons lie where they are before committing, if I do anything at all D1.

Rogan suspecting me is pretty much par for the course. I would suspect me right now, and maybe even vote for myself! Last time I did that though, I nearly got myself lynched as town. I’d definitely prefer not to have a repeat performance of that if possible.

Rogan, can you explain why you have a significantly worse read on me than Kraken? And would anyone who isn’t Rogan care to do an ISO on me to either agree or disagree with him? Also echoing BCH’s question on my backing off, but I imagine that would be covered in whichever human (you’re all humans, right?) does an ISO.

Understandable, I hope it's getting calmer.

Hmmm... *chin rubbing*

An understandable position. I don't think I'd like to see a self vote from you, in fact it would probably increase my suspicions and at the same time, reduce my reluctance.

Well, for Kraken, I've got the theory about his power, which was already explained. This theory gives him some town points, but more important, don't lynch points.
Both of you spent the beginning of the day in infighting and switched nearly simultaneously to me. Going by my memory, Kraken gave me some thoughts, while you basically tagged along.

Persolus claimed only one trope was used, even griped about it. I don't particularly remember it from Ripptor, are you sure you're not mixing them up?





I'm out of lunch break and couldn't find a gif of Belle and the Beast hugging, so you'll have to pretend
(you're more of a lovable dog than a conceited prince anyway so I think it fits)

Ripptor was a misunderstanding which got cleared up, as far as I know. Good callback to Persolus. I've lost track of the details of claims, I hope I'll manage to get organized a bit better when I stop feeling sick.

I can manage, thanks. I guess being a dog would explain why I'm getting confused for a wolf so often.

(I've snipped most of the post and hope I didn't miss anything important)

I revel in being a cryptic <Insert explicative here>, so no issues.

Also will be quiet this game probably because literally travelling and seeing new places.

Thought so.

And that's good to know. I wish you a pleasant journey and hope you will still find enough time to check in here a bit.

---

Skimmed the rest of the new posts.
I think moonfly has a consistent behavior and during our discussion, we could get to better reads on each other. If he'd placed me into a Town category, I'd get suspicious, but merely dropping the points against me is what I'd expect from town!him. I probably should go on and check UPick2 and compare the behavior there, because, embarrassingly the thing about him I remember most is the fact that I've been constantly mixing up the pronouns of moonfly and Mornshine. (Still sorry about that, by the way). But I'll admit, I'm unlikely to actually to this at this stage.

Instead, I'll try to sort my thoughts out and give a general read list.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, gotta be careful about that BCH. The trick is to cultivate a personality where you're ALWAYS in character because there are no depths you cannot sink to.

Snowblaze, I promise to kill you last when I betray you all.
ahem
I mean good morning.

Nah the trick is to just not rand wolf.

[Xihirli]

But it's so fun to rand wolf. Heck, I might do it tomorrow!

[JeenLeen]

Persolus: Book Wombat
Let'sGetKraken: Snowblaze, JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
Batcathat: Xihirli, AvatarVecna
Book Wombat: Persolus
Zelphas: Ripptor
Rogan: Let'sGetKraken, Batcathat, moonfly7
CaoimhinTheCape: Zelphas
moonfly7: Taffimai
flat_footed: bladescape

Not voting: 3SecondCultist, flat_footed, Rogan

Well, for Kraken, I've got the theory about his power, which was already explained. This theory gives him some town points, but more important, don't lynch points.
Both of you spent the beginning of the day in infighting and switched nearly simultaneously to me. Going by my memory, Kraken gave me some thoughts, while you basically tagged along.

Assuming AV's vote-count is accurate: Rogan, why aren't you voting to try to save Kraken if you think Kraken shouldn't die?
I understand not joining your wagon, but I'm surprised you haven't voted Batcathat. Wouldn't that give you a chance to keep you and Kraken alive? Or maybe I forgot/missed why you think he should live more than you.

Rule question: if a tie, do we know if it's "first there lynches" or RNG?

[AvatarVecna]

Votes:
Snowblaze (2): Moonfly7, Metastachydium, Rogan
LetsGetKraken (3): Snowblaze, JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape
Zelphas (2): AvatarVecna, Ripptor
Persolus (1): BookWombat
Bladescape (1): Taffimai
Batcathat (1): Xihirli,
BookWombat (1): Persolus
Rogan (3): LetsGetKraken, 3SecondCultist, Batcathat
CaoimhinTheCape (1): Zelphas

No Vote: Flat Footed, Bladescape, Rogan

3 Hours without a peep? Who knew

Votes: (As I understand them)
Rogan (4): LetsGetKraken, 3SecondCultist, Batcathat, Moonfly7
LetsGetKraken (4): Snowblaze, JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape, AvatarVecna
Snowblaze (2): Metastachydium, Rogan
Zelphas (1): Ripptor
Persolus (1): BookWombat
Batcathat (1): Xihirli,
BookWombat (1): Persolus
CaoimhinTheCape (1): Zelphas
Moonfly7 (1): Taffimai

No Vote: Flat Footed, Bladescape, Rogan

I have zero posts between these two votecounts. I'm inclined to not read malicious intent into it, especially from a newer player, but I'm still making a note of it for later.

[Snowblaze]

Am still too tired/stressed/busy for ISOs, so... let's talk about moonfly.

Firstly, moonfly, you still haven't found examples of the "wolves gradually building up to a wolfread" thing I asked about yesterday.

Second, on me, I asked because we had an interaction that was basically:
Snow: moonfly is towny
moonfly: I think it's suspicious that you're townreading me
Snow: Wait, actually, moonfly might be a wolf
moonfly: I don't want to vote Snow any more

(I literally made a comment in my Discord channel that "my inner wolf is cackling evilly about getting moonfly to unvote her").

And that just. From the resident tinfoil-hat-wearer... doesn't fit. And also a lot of the stuff I've been saying about him looks a lot like that "wolf gradually building up to a wolfread" thing he mentioned, significantly more than what Rogan did imo.

I have no information about Kraken's power. I think I know what he might be implying, but if I'm correct I also think he'd be best off just saying it. Until he does I think killing him is definitely better at least than killing Rogan.

(I'll give him a couple of hours, but unless I think of reasons it's a bad idea for town I will say it if he doesn't.)

Having said that, I think I want BCH/moonfly wagons. Which probably means I should vote one or other of them, but... I can't decide which and neither quite feels right.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess my problem with committing to a moonfly wolfread is...

a) he's extremely different to Afterlife-2-moonfly (though that could be just because it was a much lower activity game/was quite a while ago

b) moonfly and I have never actually been both town, UPick 2 I just TMIed him town and then townread him for the scry he gave me and mostly just ignored him otherwise. So maybe town!me just naturally wolfreads town!moonfly's style.

c) moonfly is forcing himself to be paranoid when maybe that's not entirely how he naturally plays, and that forced-ness could be what's coming across as wolfy.

Actually, yeah, I've kind of convinced myself. [color=red]Batcathat[/color]. I don't think I've seen the stuff that I associate with town!BCH, and there have been some wolfy moments as well.

[Let'sGetKraken]

I have no information about Kraken's power. I think I know what he might be implying, but if I'm correct I also think he'd be best off just saying it. Until he does I think killing him is definitely better at least than killing Rogan.

(I'll give him a couple of hours, but unless I think of reasons it's a bad idea for town I will say it if he doesn't.)

Having said that, I think I want BCH/moonfly wagons. Which probably means I should vote one or other of them, but... I can't decide which and neither quite feels right.

I have no strong feelings one way or the other, but I suppose I would prefer if you didn't.

I am willing to move off of Rogan and vote for either BatCatHat or Moonfly if you vote for someone other than me, especially if you have a strong argument.

[Snowblaze]

I have zero posts between these two votecounts. I'm inclined to not read malicious intent into it, especially from a newer player, but I'm still making a note of it for later.

?

There's several posts between those, and even if you meant "vote switches" there was (I think) moonfly voting Rogan and Taffimai voting moonfly.

[Let'sGetKraken]

A deal's a deal. BatCatHat.

See this is why you edit posts, Snow ninja'd me twice.

[AvatarVecna]

?

There's several posts between those, and even if you meant "vote switches" there was (I think) moonfly voting Rogan and Taffimai voting moonfly.

Snow, when I said "I have no posts", I was not saying "I see zero posts between these two votecounts from anybody", I was saying "I, personally, AvatarVecna, did not post a single time between these two votecounts". And yet, Ripptor's votecount lists me as changing my vote from Zelphas to Kraken. This is a thing I objectively did not do, and it later lead to some confusion about who was voting who, which is what prompted me to do my own vote count in the first place. I don't think Ripptor listing me as voting Kraken was done out of malice, but I'm not willing to 100% discount it either, so I'm making a public note about it in case I die before I start putting real effort into the game.

[Snowblaze]

A deal's a deal. BatCatHat.

See this is why you edit posts, Snow ninja'd me twice.

Huh, okay then.

I believe that makes the gamestate
Batcathat 4: Xihirli, AvatarVecna, Snowblaze, Let'sGetKraken
Let'sGetKraken 2: JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape
Rogan 2: moonfly7, Batcathat
moonfly7 1: Taffimai
flat_footed 1: bladescape
Zelphas 1: Ripptor
Book Wombat 1: Persolus
Persolus 1: Book Wombat
Snowblaze 1: Metastachydium

Not voting: flat_footed, Rogan, 3SecondCultist

- - - Updated - - -

Snow, when I said "I have no posts", I was not saying "I see zero posts between these two votecounts from anybody", I was saying "I, personally, AvatarVecna, did not post a single time between these two votecounts". And yet, Ripptor's votecount lists me as changing my vote from Zelphas to Kraken. This is a thing I objectively did not do, and it later lead to some confusion about who was voting who, which is what prompted me to do my own vote count in the first place. I don't think Ripptor listing me as voting Kraken was done out of malice, but I'm not willing to 100% discount it either, so I'm making a public note about it in case I die before I start putting real effort into the game.

Right, sorry, that's what comes of being an exhausted wreck with only a vague knowledge of what's going on. Duly noted.

[AvatarVecna]

Huh, okay then.

I believe that makes the gamestate
Batcathat 4: Xihirli, AvatarVecna, Snowblaze, Let'sGetKraken
Let'sGetKraken 2: JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape
Rogan 2: moonfly7, Batcathat
moonfly7 1: Taffimai
flat_footed 1: bladescape
Zelphas 1: Ripptor
Book Wombat 1: Persolus
Persolus 1: Book Wombat
Snowblaze 1: Metastachydium

Not voting: flat_footed, Rogan, 3SecondCultist

- - - Updated - - -



Right, sorry, that's what comes of being an exhausted wreck with only a vague knowledge of what's going on. Duly noted.

Not your fault, my initial post was a little vague, so I got a bit more technical re-explaining. It happens.

[Snowblaze]

Not your fault, my initial post was a little vague, so I got a bit more technical re-explaining. It happens.

Yup, I know, I just apologise a lot.

I'm just trying and failing to work out what to do about the Kraken thing, but at least I have a vote I'm reasonably okay with.

I'm probably just going to real-time and save the deep digging for later days when RL is less chaotic, unless I get murdered before then. If anyone has questions/wants to bounce ideas off someone, let me know!

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Eh, too tired to dig into the Rogan/Moonfly stuff so I'll just dip out with something a little spicy: Zelphas is town. Discuss.

(Will explain tomorrow assuming I have time to catch up.)

Not much to discuss, but I also have a town read on Zelphas for now. Sounds like you and I have similar reasoning there.

---

For clearing up the words in the original post, I did not send a message for gac to include, my ability just says that "Everyone begins game with the knowledge that you are town." Everything else in that line is narration.

A page or two ago, Ripptor made a vote count that was a bit off, just wanna say that it's very much NAI (not alignment indicative) since it's going to be very hard keeping up with so many posts/votes this game. Mistakes will happen, I'm sure I've made them. As a note, going forward I'll put Rogan's green vote in green on here, since it may be relevant.


I should be having lunch now, but I'll hopefully come back with some reads this afternoon. No strong opinions on Batcathat, would still rather not lynch Rogan, so I'm fine staying on Kraken for the moment.





Votes:
Snowblaze (1): Metastachydium, Rogan
LetsGetKraken (2): JeenLeen, CaoimhinTheCape
Zelphas (1): Ripptor
Persolus (1): BookWombat
Batcathat (4): Xihirli, AvatarVecna, Snowblaze, LetsGetKraken
BookWombat (1): Persolus
Rogan (2): Batcathat, Moonfly7
CaoimhinTheCape (1): Zelphas
Moonfly7 (1): Taffimai
Flat_Footed (1): Bladescape

No Vote: Flat Footed, Rogan, 3SecondCultist

[AvatarVecna]

I am about to type up the thread. Remember, I make no promises of balance. Only really in numbers on each alignment did I try

General expectation based on gamesize: 3-5 wolves. 5 wolves would give us a D3 LYLO if we have a bad vig, but is plausible in a game with this many powers flying around, and D3 LYLO is bare minimum earliest that's acceptable anyway. I could see 4 if the wolves have good powers. 3 feels like too few wolves unless their powers are stupid good. I won't count that out until we've got a dead wolf or two to evaluate, though. Expectation is 4 or 5, and I'd prefer to lean 5 just to avoid underestimating them.

EDIT: Gut feeling is saying "two in top third, two in bottom third, one floating". That is to say, BCH/Snow/moon/Kraken/Rogan/3SC has two, Zelphas/BW/flat/blade/Cao/Taff has two, and the fifth is somewhere else. This is basically pure speculation, and also feels so obvious that if anybody else said it I'd probably vote them for such blatant IIOA, but it's useful to note what the activity levels are right now since they can change so much later. Maybe four days down the line, BCH/Snow/moon/3SC are dead, and that can inform my suspicions on Kraken/Rogan in "if it's not them, wolves were basically all inactive D1?" way. That kinda thing.

[Batcathat]

And now I'm top wagon all of a sudden. That's not great. I'm not sure if there are any specific points I can defend myself against (and considering my reads have been pretty much all "gut feelings" and "bad vibes", I suppose I can't really complain about that, can I? ) but if anyone has any questions for me, feel free to ask. (I will say that I probably won't claim, at least not at this point.)

- - - Updated - - -

Also, did anyone else totally think D1 was 24 hours shorter than it was until gac said otherwise on Discord? I suppose me being busy for most of tomorrow might end up an issue after all.

[Xihirli]

And now I'm top wagon all of a sudden. That's not great. I'm not sure if there are any specific points I can defend myself against (and considering my reads have been pretty much all "gut feelings" and "bad vibes", I suppose I can't really complain about that, can I? ) but if anyone has any questions for me, feel free to ask. (I will say that I probably won't claim, at least not at this point.)

- - - Updated - - -

Also, did anyone else totally think D1 was 24 hours shorter than it was until gac said otherwise on Discord? I suppose me being busy for most of tomorrow might end up an issue after all.

What’s your favorite book?