Which Alignment is more powerful?

[fireinthedust]

Looking at the Favoured Soul, and various other sourcebooks detailing monsters from the outer planes, got me thinking: is Alignment change cosmetic in terms of power level?

Would a specific alignment determine how powerful a class could be? Would a favoured soul be more powerful if they were good-aligned, or eeevil? Lawful or Chaotic?

The Paladin, for example, is a powerful class on its own that needs to be reigned in with hefty alignment restrictions and a code of behavior.

But are evil characters statistically more powerful than good ones? I'm thinking in terms of spell selection (animate dead; is it more powerful than sumon elemental), available classes for different alignments...

Is law more powerful than chaos for that reason? sure, order is harder to pull off than blowing stuff up (altho physics would say things break apart on a regular basis, so maybe not blowing up is "disorderly", or something). But are there even or uneven options for one alignment over another?

[Xefas]

The Paladin, for example, is a powerful class on its own that needs to be reigned in with hefty alignment restrictions and a code of behavior.

Paladins aren't a powerful class. They've really really weak. Dip-worthy perhaps, but...powerful? Not at all. They're objectively poor, as in, this isn't my opinion: this is fact.

In reality, I think having a True Neutral alignment is probably the most advantageous mechanics-wise, because anything that specifically affects good/evil/law/chaos has no effect on you.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Sadly, it also means limited PrC's. In my opinion, Evil is best when gettin' dem spellz, but good has the advantage in PrC's.

[Satyr]

It's alawys easier to be evil, and to be chaotic, because you are less limited than with some kind of morale. You can do what must be done without those pesky limitations like "conscience" or "misery". Very powerful, very free.
It takes a lot of effort to be a good person. It does not take any effort to be a furcifer. That comes naturally to most people.

[greenknight]

If you're a Cleric, it's best to be True Neutral. Then you can cast any spell regardless of it's alignment descriptor. You should also Rebuke Undead, since at low levels that's gives you the best method of dealing with undead, and at higher levels you'll get DR X/Good, which protects you much better than DR X/Evil. You do lose out on the spontaneous Cure spells that way, but a few scrolls (or better still, a Wand) can fix that, and you're better off with the Vigor and Heal spells for major healing anyway.

[Mr. Friendly]

While this seems it will be a largely philosophical debate, mechanically I agree with Xefas.

True Neutral is the "best" or "strongest" alignment, since it means not getting hit with a big bag of crap from a long list of spells.

[fireinthedust]

I get that. Like, the human condition.


I was thinking there's a non-mechanical power boost with the ability to blow stuff up that goodly characters (and some lawful) won't do. So, while good characters can Turn Undead (which is incredibly powerful vs. my DM monsters), evil characters can be more ruthless.

However, one could argue that eeevil doesn't understand the benefits of good or law (ie: a paladin in need could be helped by a goodly Cleric's healing charity; the answer to a riddle could be "true love" or "selflessness"; not having power transfer only with a civil war; etc.).


Is Rebuke Undead as powerful as Turning? Should evil clerics be able to obliterate good characters' minions the way good characters blow up skeletons and vampires?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Rebuke is generally MORE powerful than Turn, since it means you're getting freebie minions. With the Greater turning feat, you could get cheap cannon fodder without extra effort.

[Keld Denar]

In reality, I think having a True Neutral alignment is probably the most advantageous mechanics-wise, because anything that specifically affects good/evil/law/chaos has no effect on you.

Of the big alignment based spells, being true neutral would arguably be best for the 4th level versions (Holy Smite, Unholy Blight, Law Something, Chaos Something). They specify that if you aren't of the opposed alignment, but not the same alignment (ie neutral) you start with 1/2 damage, save for 1/4, and you are not affected by the 2ndary effect.

For the 7th level versions, however, (Holy Word, Blasphemy, Dictum, Word of Chaos) if your alignment doesn't match that of the caster, you get hosed. So, if you were true neutral, and you got hit by all 4, you'd be pretty boned, in 4 fruity flavors.

Being true neutral also saves you from Zealot Pact, from CD, which to the best of my knowledge, can't target true fencesitters, since they have no alignment opposes them.

So, it is better to be neutral at lowish levels, and then shift to a definite alignment (usually best on the good/evil axis, since Holy Word and Blasphemy are common SLAs, and Dictum and Word of Chaos are not) as you pass level 10. That is, if your class makeup allows such a shift. Thats metagaming a bit much though, although if you didn't tell anyone that was what you were doing, you could probably pull it off. Lots of characters can have gradual alignment shifts over the course of and adventuring career.

[Mr. Friendly]

In mechanical terms, good and evil are basically even. The evil priest controls and bolsters his undead while the good cleric turns and destroys them. Good characters can become Saints, get some nice exalted feats and generally beat the stuffing out of evil characters and monsters more often than not. Evil characters can serve the forces of evil, be they demons, devils, forgotten gods or just plain evil gods. They get all sorts of powerful stuff, most of which falls just a half inch shy of being able to defeat the on par good character with equivalent sorts of choices. But evil is, evil. Ruthless, they can do what they want. Generally they will be picking the fight with the good guy. So if they keep their heads low, form a small cult worhipping (evil power) and get charged up, they can start scrying and what not, find the best heroes in the land, then scry, teleport and kill them while they sleep. That's just how evil rolls.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Also, Zealot pact bones TN's MORE than it does with other people. See, TN has four opposite alignments, the "extreme" alignments which are different from N in both Axis: LG, LE, CE, CG. So, Zealot pact kills you dead.

[Roderick_BR]

Paladins aren't a powerful class. They've really really weak. Dip-worthy perhaps, but...powerful? Not at all. They're objectively poor, as in, this isn't my opinion: this is fact.

In reality, I think having a True Neutral alignment is probably the most advantageous mechanics-wise, because anything that specifically affects good/evil/law/chaos has no effect on you.

Restrictions were supposed to be a "cost" for more powerful characters. That was true back in AD&D, and got screwed in 3.x.
So, yeah, neutral is practically more powerful.

[Xefas]

Restrictions were supposed to be a "cost" for more powerful characters. That was true back in AD&D, and got screwed in 3.x.
So, yeah, neutral is practically more powerful.

Yeah, I remember 2nd ed paladins. Not only Lawful Good, but you had to be Human, you leveled up slower than everyone, you had to tithe 10% of everything you owned, couldn't associate with non-good people, AND had to have 18 charisma and a whole bunch of other attribute requirements.

Then there was the bit of one of the paladin's class features only functioning when he held a very specific high-level magic item.

[TempusCCK]

Eh, I think in terms of of overall Universal power, Good has an advantage over evil ever so slightly. I mean, this is all subject to interpretation, but if you look at Good Aligned beings from the Good planes, they generally tend to be more powerful than their evilly aligned counterpart beings from Evil Planes.

My evidence: Solar > Balor.

[Scythoro]

TN is the easy way out, not necessarily the most powerful. It's equivalent to not having an alignment at all. All it says is that I can do what I want when I want and not be considered chaotic for flipping between good and evil choices. TN is for a character that does not how to roleplay and makes decisions based on what suites him (not the character's personality).

That said, my money is on Lawful as the strongest.

[Doresain]

Eh, I think in terms of of overall Universal power, Good has an advantage over evil ever so slightly. I mean, this is all subject to interpretation, but if you look at Good Aligned beings from the Good planes, they generally tend to be more powerful than their evilly aligned counterpart beings from Evil Planes.

My evidence: Solar > Balor.

it should be solar vs pit fiend...pit fiends are more powerful than balors IMO

[Chronos]

True Neutral is the "best" or "strongest" alignment, since it means not getting hit with a big bag of crap from a long list of spells.

For the smite-type spells, it about balances out, assuming that you get equal amounts of all of them. If you get hit by both a Holy Smite and Unholy Blight (one of those presumably being collateral damage), for instance, the good character will take full damage from Blight but none from Smite, the evil character will take full from Smite but none from Blight, and the neutral character will take half from each, for the same total all around.

As for power of creatures, whenever there's a good version of something and an evil version, the good version is always slightly more powerful. In addition to the outsiders, you can look at the dragons: Golds are unparalleled, silvers are almost exactly equal to reds, and so on down the line, with whites being worse than any of the others. Or the humanoids: The traditionally-evil goblins, orcs, and kobolds all get negative-balance ability adjustments, while humans, elves, dwarves etc. all get zero-balance adjustments.

The flip side of this, though, is that there are more evil creatures than good ones, so many evil creatures don't have a good equivalent.

[JaxGaret]

It's alawys easier to be evil, and to be chaotic, because you are less limited than with some kind of morale.

You mean morals. Everybody has morale

You can do what must be done without those pesky limitations like "conscience" or "misery". Very powerful, very free.

Having a Chaotic or Evil alignment doesn't mean you have no conscience, nor does having an Evil or Chaotic alignment make you less prone to misery.

It takes a lot of effort to be a good person. It does not take any effort to be a furcifer. That comes naturally to most people.

Where are you getting these blanket judgments from? It's just as easy to be Good as to be Evil, to be Lawful as to be Chaotic. It's who you are.

TN is the easy way out, not necessarily the most powerful. It's equivalent to not having an alignment at all. All it says is that I can do what I want when I want and not be considered chaotic for flipping between good and evil choices. TN is for a character that does not how to roleplay and makes decisions based on what suites him (not the character's personality).

So much wrongness.

I'm guessing that you've played with people who treated TN in this fashion; it's usually a bad idea to take specific instances/anecdotes and turn them into universal principles.

[Keld Denar]

For the smite-type spells, it about balances out, assuming that you get equal amounts of all of them. If you get hit by both a Holy Smite and Unholy Blight (one of those presumably being collateral damage), for instance, the good character will take full damage from Blight but none from Smite, the evil character will take full from Smite but none from Blight, and the neutral character will take half from each, for the same total all around.

The biggest thing though....is that neutral characters are NEVER affected by the 2ndary effect of each of these spell. I dunno about you, but whenever my cleric starts dropping Holy Smites, his aim is to BLIND people. The damage is just gravy. Its like a hightened, widened Glitterdust to him. A true neutral character would only take a pitiful amount of damage from any of the various spells (5d8/2? save for 4d8/4? wow.....so scary).

Its when you start getting into the 7th level spells as I mentioned, that you need to choose sides. The wording on Holy Word is non-good, which means it blasts evil and neutral indiscriminantly. Blasphemy states the opposite( non-evil). At that time, being neutral is more of a hinderance, since you get caught by spells cast by both sides. And the things those spells do....very bad...very very bad to get caught in....life ending even.

[Mr. Friendly]

Woo Woo! Alignment Philosophy discussion!

Chaotic Evil. Lawful Evil. Neutral Evil. Roses by any other name would still be just as black and thorny. Prick us, do we not bleed? Wrong us, do we not revenge?

Evil still loves, well maybe not Neutral Evil. Evil does what evil wants though. Evil *can* be easier than good. Or it can be very difficult. Just as Good or Neutral can be easy or difficult. It all depends on the relevant characters personality as it interacts with their alignment.

A Lawful Evil character can easily be a pitiable, tragic figure. I use Darth Vader as my go to answer on this one. His love, forbidden by his order, led ultimately to serving the (lawfully elected) Emperor - he is trapped. He must obey his master, his leader while simultaneously he is corrupted by the Dark Side.

Nazis; another relatively good LE example in many cases. They followed orders. The orders were evil and if they were better men, stronger men perhaps, they would have refused. But they had to obey. Some reveled in it, others were closer to LN. Some were CE. Some NE. They were all (for the most part) human though. They had wives and children and friends and families that they cared about and protected. Being evil is not "I kill everything in my path and care about nothing."; Evil is much more complicated, usually.

[bugsysservant]

Hmm, well good gets exalted feats, which can be broken. But evil gets some really nive PrCs. Honestly, Ur-Preist is probably the most overpowered prestige class in the game, and its limited to evil. So, I'm going with evil here.

Law v. Chaos is a bit harder since it doesn't come up as much. Again, Lawful people, or law inclined neutrals, are really the only one who have an easy time with exalted, while chaotics get screwed. But there are probably more classes that are restricted to "non-lawful" than the other way around. Let's see, do we want to play a paladin or a monk, or a uber charger barbarian, or a diplomancer bard.

And as for the Solar vs. Balor debate, it wouldn't fight the Balor. It would fight one of those screwy non core demons that have a mouth in their abdomens and something like CR 26.

[Satyr]

You mean morals. Everybody has morale

English is not my primary language; it's natural to make mistakes in secondary languages, I think (to my defense, in German, a plural of moral woulld just feel... very wrong).

Having a Chaotic or Evil alignment doesn't mean you have no conscience, nor does having an Evil or Chaotic alignment make you less prone to misery.

No, but it needs more effort to be nice to your neighbours, and I actually meant charity (deriving misery from misericordia was somewhat logically, but stupid nonetheless).

Where are you getting these blanket judgments from? It's just as easy to be Good as to be Evil, to be Lawful as to be Chaotic. It's who you are.

I disagree. Being good is hard and combined with sacrifices - you have actively DO something to qualify for being good. Not so for being evil. You can easily be evil while doing nothing or even by doing nothing (like in failure to render assistance).
Also, evil is similar to dirt - it's much easier to become dirty than to become clean (or, in this kind of alignment discussion, 'pure' may be a better term). Can a "good" person still be conscidered to be good after committing atrocities? Likewise, can an "evil" person become good by doing good deeds as well?

[Mordokai]

Eh, I think in terms of of overall Universal power, Good has an advantage over evil ever so slightly. I mean, this is all subject to interpretation, but if you look at Good Aligned beings from the Good planes, they generally tend to be more powerful than their evilly aligned counterpart beings from Evil Planes.

My evidence: Solar > Balor.

Half-celestial > Half-fiend.

Personally, I think evil is more powerful, because it has fewer or no moral obligations and problems. If either side wins the Blood war the Upper plains are in serious problems. Powerful as they are, celestials can't match the raw power that demons or devils can throw at them.

That being said, I still think that Good has the Edge over Evil. If nothing more, it has the power of the plot, for we all know that Good always wins in the end

[Tequila Sunrise]

By its very definition, Evil is more versatile than Good but Good is mechanically superior 99% of the time in d&d because most rules and supplements exist to encourage good characters to go around questing against evil villains. Just compare good dragons to evil dragons, good outsiders to evil outsiders, the Book of Exalted Cheese to the Book of Vile Suckitude.

As to law and chaos, law is almost always mechanically superior to chaos in d&d because so many gamers still have the idea stuck in their head that law = good.

[puppyavenger]

By its very definition, Evil is more versatile than Good but Good is mechanically superior 99% of the time in d&d because most rules and supplements exist to encourage good characters to go around questing against evil villains. Just compare good dragons to evil dragons, good outsiders to evil outsiders, the Book of Exalted Cheese to the Book of Vile Suckitude.

As to law and chaos, law is almost always mechanically superior to chaos in d&d because so many gamers still have the idea stuck in their head that law = good.

options maby, but there are by far more evil monsters, areas et cetra because the heros need something to quest against.

[Mordokai]

As to law and chaos, law is almost always mechanically superior to chaos in d&d because so many gamers still have the idea stuck in their head that law = good.

Perhaps paladin had something to did with that, hm?

[Renegade Paladin]

While this seems it will be a largely philosophical debate, mechanically I agree with Xefas.

True Neutral is the "best" or "strongest" alignment, since it means not getting hit with a big bag of crap from a long list of spells.

At lower levels, yes. You take half from holy smite and it's analogues, and dispel good has no effect on you. However, blasphemy will kill a neutral just as dead as a good-aligned character; higher level alignment spells blast those not of the alignment, not just those of the opposing alignment.