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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    I'm currently playing a level 9 Lore Bard /level 1 Divine Soul Sorcerer in a Princes of Apocalypse campaign (with homebrew that will take us to level 20). My party consists of a Vengeance Paladin, a Twilight Cleric, a Dragon Monk, an Artificer/War Mage, and a Scribes Wizard, so we are pretty well balanced in terms of spellcasting breadth.

    I took Counterspell & Revivify at level 6 (before the Wizard and Cleric joined)

    I am on the cusp of my next magical secrets and am struggling a bit as to what I should take next. I have been a valuable member thus far as a battlefield control/support concentration option (Hypnotic Pattern, Hold Person, Heat Metal, Polymorph) and only recently applied some damage spells to the arsenal (Animate Objects, Synaptic Static).

    The Wizard already has things like Wall of Force, Bigby's Hand, and Steel Wind Strike, while the Cleric has Spirit Guardians and Circle of Power.

    I enjoy being useful so worry about taking similar spells that are already taken, however, level 10 seems a tad limited in options otherwise, especially as we extend into late tier play.

    I currently am thinking the following but, to be honest, they all feel a tad underwhelming:

    • Pass Without Trace (but we are more of a "beat down the front door" kind of group)
    • Find Greater Steed (but in a dungeon crawl campaign, feels less useful if not outright useless. DM makes it difficult for us to even enter dungeons with mounts so this will no doubt be difficult.)
    • Destructive Wave (would require me to get within 30 ft range)
    • Telekinesis (on my shortlist, but is it useful in combat relative to Bigby's or just a utility play?)
    • Conjure Animals (feels like it scales poorly by mid-tier play).
    • Sickening Radiance (in anticipation of Forcecage? but is that too situational?)


    Am I thinking about these choices wrong? Are there better options out there that I should consider, even if it means doubling down?

    If you were me, PICK TWO.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Some other spells to consider ...

    Circle of Power - 30' radius - moves with you - 10 minutes - everyone in the area gets advantage on spells and other magical effects - can be an amazing support spell and no one else will have it until much later. The paladin doesn't get it until level 17 or so.

    Destructive Wave is good in the right circumstances but usage depends on how close to melee you usually get - 30' radius from you - hits targets of your choice - 5d6 thunder + 5d6 radiant or necrotic your choice - knocked prone. Half damage on a save and not knocked prone. The only downside is that it is a con save.

    Conjure Woodland Being can be broken if your DM allows you to pick pixies - glass cannon but several polymorph spells going off can totally disrupt a combat/encounter. (They are only CR 1/4 so you get 8 of them with one spell - only 1 hit point - but the spells they can cast are brutal). However, it is pretty niche and most reasonable DMs would just say no :)

    Wall of Force - I realize the wizard has it but the spell is so flexible and useful that it can be very good in any caster toolkit. In some cases, you might even want to have two of them up at once.

    (I think my level 10 lore bard picked up Wall of Force and Circle of Power but they also picked Counterspell and Fireball at 6th level).

    The advantage of Telekinesis is that it isn't a saving throw. It is an ability check so Legendary saves don't apply and the target is restrained by your spell which makes it easier for your team mates to hit. It also lasts 10 minutes. So it should be on your short list. It also has out of combat uses but it isn't a spell that would see a lot of use against large groups.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Hi,
    I would always pick up a Summon from Tasha: they do a lot of damage and they absorb some of the enemy's attention. They are more party-friendly than Conjure Animals, and overall more effective to use. Summon Undead or Summon Aberrations are the best choices as they provide a ranged options, but the other Summons are also good.

    Telekinesis is good on a Lore Bard, thanks to the sinergy with Master of All Trades and Peerless Skills. It's a good control spell, although a bit redundant with Animate Objects and Bigby's Hand.

    These are both Concentration spells, though, so depending on your combat style you may need something non-concentration.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Quote Originally Posted by follacchioso View Post
    Hi,
    I would always pick up a Summon from Tasha: they do a lot of damage and they absorb some of the enemy's attention. They are more party-friendly than Conjure Animals, and overall more effective to use. Summon Undead or Summon Aberrations are the best choices as they provide a ranged options, but the other Summons are also good.

    Telekinesis is good on a Lore Bard, thanks to the sinergy with Master of All Trades and Peerless Skills. It's a good control spell, although a bit redundant with Animate Objects and Bigby's Hand.

    These are both Concentration spells, though, so depending on your combat style you may need something non-concentration.
    Summon Celestial also has a range option and could work pretty well if you are looking for an extra attacker. The summoned creatures also scale with the level of the spell slot used to cast them. However, they all use concentration, and a bard often has something better to concentrate on.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    First, I have not played that campaign so this is more in general.

    Do you have Healing Word for one of your Bard Spells? I have found my 2 Bards to not be great healers, but to be clutch.

    Also, Dissonant Whispers interacts very well, very very well with Animate Objects. It gets your objects and party members opportunity attacks.

    To your question, with a Wood Elf Lore Bard I took Find Greater Steed and Conjure Woodland Beings. Woodland Beings can be kind of random but Pixies are silly effective if you can communicate with them. The Steed is handy in combat and travel.

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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Quote Originally Posted by bsullivanp View Post
    I'm currently playing a level 9 Lore Bard /level 1 Divine Soul Sorcerer...

    If you were me, PICK TWO.
    I went through a similar difficulty with my Lore Bard, and I picked Bigby's Hand.
    I wish I had picked Telekinesis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    The advantage of Telekinesis is that it isn't a saving throw. It is an ability check so Legendary saves don't apply and the target is restrained by your spell which makes it easier for your team mates to hit. It also lasts 10 minutes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    Summon Celestial also has a range option and could work pretty well if you are looking for an extra attacker. The summoned creatures also scale with the level of the spell slot used to cast them. However, they all use concentration, and a bard often has something better to concentrate on.
    That was going to be my second recommendation, if spells from Tasha's are allowed.

    Conjure Animals, we found, was pretty handy deep into Tier 3, but it does have the problem of the animals not doing magical damage.
    My party consists of
    a Vengeance Paladin,
    a Twilight Cleric,
    a Dragon Monk,
    an Artificer/War Mage, and
    a Scribes Wizard,
    a Lore Bard
    Hmm, with six PC's summoning beasts may just clutter up the action economy.
    But here's a tip:
    If you aren't using Slow, pick it up (Tasha's makes it a Bard spell, but if you are not using Tasha's Pick It Up Now! is my suggestion. My party loved me when I slowed the enemy)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2022-10-05 at 07:53 AM.
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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    At this point, you only have one 5th level slot and between synaptic static and animate objects, you should be able to use that slot effectively. If you take a 5th level spell for your magical secrets, you are taking it to save for later more than to use now. I normally suggest find greater steed but if you don't think that's a good choice for you, then don't take it.

    As a bard, you likely have a lot of concentration spells. Hypnotic pattern, hold person, heat metal, polymorph and animate objects have been mentioned. I assume you have silvery barbs for a reaction defense, vortex warp and dimension door for movement, and raulothims psychic lance for 4th level non concentration debuff. If you don't, I'd swap out bard spells to get those if you can.

    For your magical secrets, I would consider taking Tasha's mind whip. It's a very good concentration-free debuff that I can't believe isn't on the bard spell list. It's a good use of 2nd-4th level spell slots, upcasting to affect more targets.

    Pass without trace is a great spell for the party to have. For a bard, defensive spells like shield or absorb elements can be useful too.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Conjure animals/woodland beings are crazy if you get to pick the summons and the former is generally good even with some limitations.

    Wall of force might be shared with the wizard, but the power of the spell cannot be overstated. Multiple people with wall of force aren't redundant, they're just that much better together. You can pretty much control any encounter with two or three of them.

    Circle of power is a very good paladin exclusive (unless your cleric's Twilight) that you get many levels early instead and is universally good. Becomes even better depending on what your DM considers a magical effect.

    Summon celestial is a good controllable summon with a lot of DPR and utility (it heals and you can ride it).

    Find greater steed is admittedly less useful in narrow corridors and small rooms and I'm not very familiar with PotA's structure, so if you say it's not favorable I'll take your word for it. Still, worth a mention.

    While we're talking lower level spells, pass without trace is often free surprise and a good way to let you avoid encounters you don't wanna bother with as well as an excellent scouting tool.

    Finally, if you are OK with potential moral implications and can convince your party it's not actually dangerous (it isn't if you place it well), there's always summon greater demon. It's stronger than any TCE spell and unlike the mass conjurations you are explicitly allowed to choose the creature yourself; babaus, barlguras, tlacatecolos, shadow demons, stuff like chasmes and vrocks if you upcast, make for a really good selection that is strong, tough and offers a lot of utility.
    Last edited by Chaos Jackal; 2022-10-05 at 07:58 AM.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Misty Step and and find Greater Steed. You seem set with plenty of utility control spells already and you have other utility from wizard and cleric part members. So these spells will be to give some mobility options for you, making the battlefield safer to manuever.

    Misty Step is a great bonus action teleport for low spell slot cost to help escape dangerous situations.

    Find greater Steed is just so much fun to have, the mobility is great and having an intelligent pet that you can telepathically communicate with allows for fun roleplaying. Going into a dungeon I would rate lower but still just too much fun not to take it. The steed lasts until killed so precast before the day begins. Due to cramped spaces of dungeon stick to the Large sized choices of Steed and remember that you don't have to mount them, IMO treat it as a utility pet to bring up the rear. When the space opens up it will be very useful to have a non concentration flight option handy, you can lend it to your paladin they will appreciate the support.

    Oh and I think misty Step affects your mount too when you cast it.

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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    I agree that at least one of the picks should be a non-Concentration spell of less than 5th level.

    You've already mentioned Find Greater Steed and Pass Without Trace, which are the top two that fit the bill, but also described your reasons why they might not be optimal picks for you. So other good picks could include:

    Misty Step: Bonus Action get-out-of-jail/grapple/mouth/etc. card

    Spiritual Weapon: Bonus Action non-Concentration force damage that uses as little as a 2nd level slot but also upcasts well (useful for BA damage when you're not utilizing Animate Objects). Well suited for dungeon crawling, due to its limited movement; SW is tougher to utilize in more open areas against mobile foes.

    Aura of Vitality (if the Cleric doesn't keep it prepared): This one's Concentration, but is best used outside of combat to top up the party; it heals as much HP as the Heal spell over the course of 1 minute (20d6 or 70 avg.) using only a 3rd level slot, and unlike Heal the healing can be spread around to more than one ally.

    Eldritch Blast: Lets you cast a solid Concentration spell, then hang back and continue to do respectable damage from range without using further resources. Also gives you a good way to get around Magic Resistance/Legendary Resistances, since Bards normally have very few damage spells that don't involves saving throws.

    Tasha's Mind Whip/Raulothim's Psychic Lance: Solid single target damage/debuff spells. These could be seen as a little redundant if you already have Dissonant Whispers (which you should), but while the psychic damage between all three spells of these are similar per slot level, either of these two's debuffs are stronger than DW, they also target INT instead of WIS, and importantly Mind Whip can be upcast to affect multiple targets. But if you already known Dissonant Whispers and Synaptic Static, these will rank lower on the list.

    Quote Originally Posted by follacchioso View Post
    Hi,
    I would always pick up a Summon from Tasha: they do a lot of damage and they absorb some of the enemy's attention. They are more party-friendly than Conjure Animals, and overall more effective to use.
    The Summon X spells are certainly useful, and can be an efficient use of a slot and your Concentration thanks to the 1 hour duration. They also scale well with upcasting, if you're willing to use higher level slots. Summon Celestial is probably the best combat option, but is already available to the Twilight Cleric. So I'd go with Undead or Draconic Spirit here. (Draconic Spirit might be extra handy in this elemental-themed campaign, because the caster gets to choose the dragon's element each time you cast it, so you can tailor it to whatever you're fighting currently...)

    Summon Undead/Summon Draconic Spirit are both useful for more than just combat too. The Draconic Spirit is Large, can fly, and can speak Draconic, so you can use it out of combat as a flying mount, or as a flying scout who can fully describe what it's seen. Similarly, the Ghostly Undead can fly and move through walls, so makes for a good scout and a means to bypass some blockades (fly through the locked door and unlock it from the other side/fly across the gap and activate the drawbridge crank/etc.), although it can't speak so can't fully express what it has seen while scouting (though it can still pantomime, draw, or potentially even write). And Summon Undead can be cast with as little as a 3rd level slot, so the cost for utility use is less than Draconic Spirit.


    While either one of these Summon spells will be slightly better in combat than a pet from Find Greater Steed (thanks to their slightly better damage output and AC), these also require Concentration and only last 1 hour per spell slot. So I'd still strongly recommend Find Greater Steed as Plan A, even if you're not going to be utilizing it as a mount very frequently. You can still use the Griffon as another disposable combatant/meat shield and a flying scout. And if size is a concern, a Peryton is a Medium creature (although it's weaker than the Griffon). Or since your DM apparently has an objection to Large mounts in dungeons, it's worth asking if you can have a non-mount Griffon pet that's Medium sized.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2022-10-05 at 01:22 PM.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Even in a dungeon, find greater steed is a for-sure pick. Most of the good ones are size large, so if you're on a grid they can squeeze through a 5' space, and I've never seen dungeons with corridors less than that. Also, combat rarely happens inside the 5' corridor from what I've seen, and if it does, usually the party has a tactical advantage since you're qualitatively better typically and the enemy can't bring their action economy advantage to bear effectively.

    With Find Greater Steed you can get a multi-attacking flying companion with significant physical stats even if you aren't mounted on it. A ring of spell storing would allow multiple party members to have one, severely impinging on the enemy action economy advantage. Many traps in dungeons are triggered by things on the floor etc so if you have a high enough ceiling, these become trivial. It can also grapple, which you can help with using your cutting words, allowing it to grab an enemy, fly up, and drop them somewhere convenient.

    Telekinesis is nice for a Lore bard since you can nuke their ability check with cutting words, and get jack of all trades synergy. Can also be useful for disarming traps etc that are too sporty for mage hand. However, you don't really have enough martials to really take advantage of it in my opinion. That said, a ring of telekenesis is always my #1 wanted high tier magic item as a bard.


    I would go with circle of power for the second choice, personally. You have enough magical firepower and enough defense that melee monsters are not going to be an exceptional threat, especially if you have a flying mount. But magic could be a show-stopper. It also would probably allow you to drop counterspell and replace it with something else. I would also probably swap out revivify. Aura of Vitality might be a good swap out for one of those, you might be a little light on healing. And then maybe for the other a good low-level spell that has synergy with Find Greater Steed like Dragon's breath or something.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny_Snoggins View Post
    I would go with circle of power for the second choice, personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    Circle of Power - 30' radius - moves with you - 10 minutes - everyone in the area gets advantage on spells and other magical effects - can be an amazing support spell and no one else will have it until much later. The paladin doesn't get it until level 17 or so.
    While Circle of Power is a fantastic spell that normally this would be a top pick for a 10th level Magical Secrets, it's important to remember that the OP's party includes a Twilight Cleric who already has access to this, so it's less of a slam dunk here...

    Twilight Clerics are the only ones that are able to access Circle of Power as low as Level 9, and only one of two (the other being Level 10+ Bards with Magical Secrets) who can access it before Level 17 Paladins.

    It's reason number Eleventy-Seven why Twilight Clerics are super strong.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2022-10-05 at 12:46 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Misty step is a great spell but depending on your stats you might be better off picking it up through the Fey Touched feat. It gives an extra spell slot free casting and an additional level 1 spell so it might be a better way to pick it up than one of the magical secrets.

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    Misty step is a great spell but depending on your stats you might be better off picking it up through the Fey Touched feat. It gives an extra spell slot free casting and an additional level 1 spell so it might be a better way to pick it up than one of the magical secrets.
    This is a very good point! I forgot about Fey Touched, its a great feat. In that case if you are able to fit Fey Touched into your build at level 12 then for the magical secrets grab Spiritual Weapon if you find you don't use your bonus action often in combat OR grab Fireball for a solid blast spell option to use against low HP hordes.
    Last edited by PallyBass; 2022-10-10 at 10:30 AM. Reason: more suggestions

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Quote Originally Posted by PallyBass View Post
    This is a very good point! I forgot about Fey Touched, its a great feat. In that case if you are able to fit Fey Touched into your build at level 12 then for the magical secrets grab Spiritual Weapon if you find you don't use your bonus action often in combat OR grab Fireball for a solid blast spell option to use against low HP hordes.
    I actually have Fey Touched already. Overall, I think my PC has a decent amount of concentration & support spells, a surprising only OK amount of control spells, and some damage, albeit utilizing my 5th level slots (Animate Objects & Synaptic Static)

    Cantrip: Firebolt, Mind Sliver, Guidance, Vicious Mockery, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Message, Mage Hand
    1st: Command (Fey Touched), Dissonant Whispers, Faerie Fire, Healing Word, Shield
    2nd: Heat Metal, Hold Person, Mirror Image, Misty Step (Fey Touched)
    3rd: Counterspell (MS6), Revivify (MS6), Hypnotic Pattern, Dispel Magic
    4th: Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door
    5th: Animate Object, Synaptic Static

    With the Wizard covering Wall of Force, Bigby's, and Steel Wind Strike, the Twilight Cleric covering Circle of Power, Spirit Guardians, Spiritual Weapon, I think that my best bet would be either additional control spells. non-concentration spells, and perhaps a spell that is LOWER than 5th level. Based on feedback from this community, here and elsewhere, I am thinking that perhaps I should revise my shortlist:

    • Telekinesis (this feels like a lock)
    • Banishment (forgot about this one, but I do already have some save or sucks spells)
    • Find Greater Steed (assuming DM doesn't nerf it in dungeon)
    • Wall of Force (despite the repeat with Wizard)
    • some alternatives:
    • Transmute Rock (non-concentration control spell that seems tailor made for a dungeon crawl. Anyone with experience with this one?)
    • Absorb Elements (I screwed up with my Sorcerer dip and didn't take this the first time, so perhaps pick up due to the overwhelming elemental nature of this campaign?)
    • Conjure Animals (feels like it competes with Animate Objects, but may still be a good damage/control combo spell that scales well into late game)
    • Summon Draconic Spirit (my thinking here is that I am facing a ton of elemental damage daily, so could doubly aid in damage, a potential mount for an hour, and resistance to whichever damage type I'm facing in combat).

    Does this sound about right?
    Last edited by bsullivanp; 2022-10-17 at 09:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Since it sounds like Telekinesis is going to be one of your two picks, I would skip stuff like Wall of Force and Transmute Rock, and again strongly reiterate the recommendation to take a non-5th level spell for your second pick. You already have two excellent go-to 5th level spells in Animate Objects and Synaptic Static. Telekinesis would add a third, and that's almost one too many. You really don't want/need a fourth. You only have two 5th level slots per day.

    So find something at 1st-4th level instead. And judging by your spell list, 3rd and especially 2nd level could be good options, as you mostly have situationally useful spells there, so won't always have a good use for your 2nd/3rd level slots over the course of a day.

    You also already have quite a few good uses for your Concentration in just about any combat between Fairy Fire, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Hypnotic Pattern, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, and Animate Objects, plus will now apparently be adding Telekinesis too. I'd be very hesitant to add yet another Concentration spell, even a lower level one like Conjure Animals.

    Therefore, of the handful of options you listed, Absorb Elements would likely be the best pick, based on the nature of the campaign plus the above points about higher level slot competition and Concentration clog. Both Dissonant Whispers and Command upcast well, so you can just upcast those into your 2nd/3rd level slots when you have excess, and reserve your 1st level slots primarily for Absorb Elements/Shield.



    Note: Banishment is a very solid spell, and handy when dealing with Elementals since they're not native to the Material Plane, but both the Wizard and the Cleric already have access to it. Encourage one or both of those to prepare it. (It's also a Concentration spell, and as discussed above, you're flush with those currently.)
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2022-10-18 at 09:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Hmm. I might throw in find steed. Not find greater steed.

    It's a level 2 spell, where you might have some relative weaknesses. It's non concentration. It still gives you mobility. If dealing with a lot of AoE hazards it's less of a loss if it dies. It's just a bit more disposable and keeps your higher level slots free.

    I would also suggest a buff spell. I don't know the campaign, but if a lot of magic resistant enemies or enemies with legendary saves are in play then a buff could be nice. You have polymorph on the bard list but spells like bless or Haste can be nice.

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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    Do you have a consistent use for your Bonus Action (BA) besides Bardic Inspiration? If not, I suggest a spell that uses your BA such as Arcane/Bigby's Hand (I know the Wizard has it already but there are some decent combos you can do if two casters have it).

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Level 10 Magical Secrets - Lore Bard in Princes of the Apocalypse

    How about Holy Weapon to buff the paladin BA spell which you can blow up as a BA later to do 4d8 AOE and possibly blind. Then there's aura of purity granting advantage vs all sorts of statuses. Aura of life resistance to necrotic and allies at 0 get 1 hp at the start of their turns. Shadow of Moil or Fire Shield could grant you some defense and passive damage if you get in close.

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