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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    Which rule system are using for that - because I don't think someone of slightly above average human strength (probably no more than average human strength) can lift a human weight at the neck. A person of normal strength might be able to deadlift their own body weight (and this is perhaps what the lift stat you are thinking of is), but there is much less leverage lifting something at neck height with your arms.
    Lift over head/off ground figures for 3.5 are 150 lb and 300 lb respectively at strength 13. So allowing 70 kg for the weight of the person you're lifting, a strength of 13 puts you very slightly over the load you can lift over your head and well within what you can lift off the ground. Yes, there might be an argument that lifting a particularly awkward load off the ground is harder than lifting something over your head, I suppose, but "it's well within my lifting limit" seems more than sufficient reasoning to allow it at an actual table.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2022-10-30 at 07:30 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Yes. I am putting these principles as if it's not widely followed, because it isn't. This whole thread is like asking "what is the best color for swords" "well my character has a blue sword" "yeah but my character prefers red swords" "hey aren't swords steel colored". My dudes, it's a banal question. Whether strength or charisma is the best for intimidation is banal. It depends on the situation.

    For 12 pages this thread has gone on, people not agreeing on scenarios, not agreeing on details, finding loopholes in each others scenarios of why one ability score is better than another. But no ability score is automatically correct. It depends on what you're doing. There /thread
    Stop talking sense!

    The answer is obvious for D&D as the GM gets to rule on it, so the answer can always be different no matter which table or ruling is made.

    However, the best part about D&D for many people is being able to argue about D&D <Shrug>
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  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    counter point - dex shouldn't increase damage. The basic concept of weapon finesse is totally flawed and only exists to allow min maxing.

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Imp

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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Quote Originally Posted by deadman1204 View Post
    counter point - dex shouldn't increase damage. The basic concept of weapon finesse is totally flawed and only exists to allow min maxing.
    I think the main goal of D&D5e is to balance the oppressive crunch of 3.5e and keep things as simple as possible. Not that 5e is a rules light game.

    In my own homebrew TTRPG system I simplified the thing by making strength always the damage stat and agility always the hit stat. And detached the impact absorbing element from armor from the impact invading element from agility.
    So you have both a defense stat and a damage absorption stat.
    Weapons have a damage dice, a hit bonus and armor penetration stats.
    Armor increases damage absorption, not defense.
    To hit someone with a weapon you roll 2d10 + your total hit bonus, if you equal or exceed the defense stat you hit.
    If you hit you roll damage, damage dice + strength (if melee weapon) + other mod + accuracy bonus - (damage absorption - armor piercing) (min 0).
    Accuracy bonus is this: how much you exceed the targets defenses divided by 10. If it's a melee weapon accuracy bonus is applied to damage, otherwise it's applied to armor piercing)

    (other mod can come from various sources, like weapon quality, perks, various perks can add damage and hit rate depending on situation)
    Your defense also has three levels. First is base, depends on your size, this is basically your profile, use if a character is standing still not expecting to be hit. Second is passive, this is base + agility, only the targets own actions can make this the defense they use. Third is your active defense, it's passive + acrobatics skill or combat skill (whichever is higher). In combat use this.
    Certain actions can force you to switch from active to passive, passive to base. For example you can dash at 2x speed no problem, at 3x speed but use passive, 4x speed but use only base (at that point you are running in a straight predictable line at constant speed)

    It's a lot more crunchy than 5e, but I try to ensure that all math can be done in advance, so you just determine the situation, roll the dice and add a static number. Both for hitting and causing damage.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    I think the main goal of D&D5e is to balance the oppressive crunch of 3.5e and keep things as simple as possible. Not that 5e is a rules light game.

    In my own homebrew TTRPG system I simplified the thing by making strength always the damage stat and agility always the hit stat. And detached the impact absorbing element from armor from the impact invading element from agility.
    So you have both a defense stat and a damage absorption stat.
    Weapons have a damage dice, a hit bonus and armor penetration stats.
    Armor increases damage absorption, not defense.
    To hit someone with a weapon you roll 2d10 + your total hit bonus, if you equal or exceed the defense stat you hit.
    If you hit you roll damage, damage dice + strength (if melee weapon) + other mod + accuracy bonus - (damage absorption - armor piercing) (min 0).
    Accuracy bonus is this: how much you exceed the targets defenses divided by 10. If it's a melee weapon accuracy bonus is applied to damage, otherwise it's applied to armor piercing)

    (other mod can come from various sources, like weapon quality, perks, various perks can add damage and hit rate depending on situation)
    Your defense also has three levels. First is base, depends on your size, this is basically your profile, use if a character is standing still not expecting to be hit. Second is passive, this is base + agility, only the targets own actions can make this the defense they use. Third is your active defense, it's passive + acrobatics skill or combat skill (whichever is higher). In combat use this.
    Certain actions can force you to switch from active to passive, passive to base. For example you can dash at 2x speed no problem, at 3x speed but use passive, 4x speed but use only base (at that point you are running in a straight predictable line at constant speed)

    It's a lot more crunchy than 5e, but I try to ensure that all math can be done in advance, so you just determine the situation, roll the dice and add a static number. Both for hitting and causing damage.
    Except 3.5 wasn't too crunchy. They have this idea that if its not simple enough for a 3rd grader, its bad. Last I checked, alot of people actually enjoy complexity in their games, and most people here are not in elementary school.
    However, its not a simplicity issue, its a minmaxxing issue. Every class is supposed have a single stat that does everything. There are 3 power stats, and 3 dump stats now. Whats the point of a str fighter? Its a bad stat.
    They simplify it so much that the game just gets dumb.
    Last edited by deadman1204; 2022-11-09 at 04:16 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Quote Originally Posted by deadman1204 View Post
    Except 3.5 wasn't too crunchy. They have this idea that if its not simple enough for a 3rd grader, its bad.
    However, its not a simplicity issue, its a minmaxxing issue. Every class is supposed have a single stat that does everything. There are 3 power stats, and 3 dump stats now. Whats the point of a str fighter? Its a bad stat.
    They simplify it so much that the game just gets dumb.
    Great weapon master.

    It's not a bad stat for melee warriors.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Quote Originally Posted by Mastikator View Post
    Great weapon master.

    It's not a bad stat for melee warriors.
    True, its a great feat. But look at it more holistically. You attack, damage, a good save, initiative, and AC ALL From being a dex fighter. To be a str fighter, you give up your init, ac, and a good save. You can try to make these things up, but with alot of effort and gear, you still cannot be as good as a dex fighter instead.

  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    A high strength warrior can wear heavy armor. So they don't really give up much AC.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

  9. - Top - End - #369
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Hit points are about a combination of raw toughness and the ability to turn a more serious blow into a less serious one (this is stated explicitly in 3e). It's actually pretty weird that 3e doesn't let dexterity apply to damage rolls by default.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2022-11-11 at 06:19 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Quote Originally Posted by lesser_minion View Post
    Lift over head/off ground figures for 3.5 are 150 lb and 300 lb respectively at strength 13. So allowing 70 kg for the weight of the person you're lifting, a strength of 13 puts you very slightly over the load you can lift over your head and well within what you can lift off the ground. Yes, there might be an argument that lifting a particularly awkward load off the ground is harder than lifting something over your head, I suppose, but "it's well within my lifting limit" seems more than sufficient reasoning to allow it at an actual table.
    It may depend on if you're using both arms or not. I'd rule that "one-handed lifting" is never going to achieve more than half of what "two-handed lifting" can- especially not two-handed lifting that uses the arms to the full.

    Using two arms to grab someone tall and thin around the body (which is close to neck level for you) and lift them off the ground, in a "greeting hug" - that's the sort of thing that happens all the time.

    Lifting the same weight with one hand rather than two arms - not so much.
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  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Dr.Samurai's Avatar

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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Quote Originally Posted by deadman1204 View Post
    counter point - dex shouldn't increase damage. The basic concept of weapon finesse is totally flawed and only exists to allow min maxing.
    Indeed. Any arguments for dex to hit or damage will be significantly shakier than Strength to Intimidation. It is interesting to see throughout these discussions where the line falls for people between "realism" and "gamism" depending on what is being discussed.

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Dex to damage is debatable, but Dex to hit makes more sense than Str to hit, if anything.

    Yeah, yeah, "it's not just hitting, it's getting past armor" ... but what about touch attacks, or vs targets with effectively no armor? Strength is the decisive factor when trying to swat a mosquito, is it?

    Of course, if we were really trying to be realistic, Strength and Dexterity (as the term is used by D&D anyway) are linked. Muscles are what lets your body move faster. The "Str 8, Dex 16" setup you often see doesn't really make sense unless the character is notably small.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2022-11-23 at 03:56 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Dex allows you to more easily hit vital areas. In a game like D&D where armor makes you harder to hit rather than reduce damage I think it's entirely justified to make dex both bonus to hit and bonus to damage.
    Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal

  14. - Top - End - #374
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Muscles shouldn't improve intimidate

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Dex to damage is debatable, but Dex to hit makes more sense than Str to hit, if anything

    Yeah, yeah, "it's not just hitting, it's getting past armor" ... but what about touch attacks, or vs targets with effectively no armor? Strength is the decisive factor when trying to swat a mosquito, is it?
    Strength is power and speed. Dexterity is agility and reflexes. So while dexterity isn't useless, strength very much is dominant here.
    Last edited by lesser_minion; 2022-11-23 at 05:06 PM.

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