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2022-12-20, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
False. It is addressing your points, given we also told you how you were wrong. What you should have said is that your points had not been addressed to your satisfaction. But they have been addressed. And given everything else you just said has already been addressed in the OP, in Ruck's essay, and in every answer you've been given, and the only problem here is that you simply don't like the answers, I'm not spending any more time addressing your points.
Like I said at the start, and several times since: we are not here to convince you of anything. If you don't like the protean as a candidate, you don't like it. Your options then are to pick something else from the list or from off it, or to simply remain unconvinced. But until such time as you bring something new to the table (and no, this post did not bring anything new to the table - I could literally answer every single one of your so-called "unaddressed" points by quoting from the OP, the d20 SRD page for the protean, Ruck's essay or previous answers in the very thread - I am not going to keep repeating the same things over and over to you just to have you ignore them all and pretend they haven't been given to you.
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2022-12-20, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
Theyre literal physical manifestations of the energy of Law and Evil, so it may be "less" accurate, but is still accurate even if they dont strictly have to behave in a Lawful Evil manner. Theyre physically made of Evil, so I think the word embodiment applies.
It is, frankly, part of why I dislike the idea of redeemed fiends. The whole point is that they arent just evil mortals.Last edited by Keltest; 2022-12-20 at 08:39 AM.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2022-12-20, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
Fallen celestials and risen fiends exist in multiple editions though - they're not just a 3.5-ism.
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2022-12-20, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2022-12-20, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
So what? Fiendish Codex 1 was also written after it. And disagrees with it.
An Extraplanar Outsider has a soul - though it's much more tied to the matter of its body than a mortal's soul is, and requires much more powerful magic to restore.
IMO it's reasonable to say that the soul in question "is the soul of the mortal that the Outsider was in life - it isn't a new soul, replacing a destroyed one.
Now that I think about it, another important point of disagreement is that I don't see alignment as seperate from the soul, but a property of it.
So when I say "everything that isn't Lawful Evil is cooked out", then I don't mean "we take out the soul, until only Lawful Evil remains", I mean "we take out every part of the soul that is chaotic or good or whatever and only leave the Lawful Evil part of it behind".
I certainly don't claim that a new soul is created for a baatezu. The soul is transmuted into the baatezu. That's what a baatezu is: a solidified soul, purified of everything that isn't Lawful Evil, taking a shape that mocks mortal anatomy.
Finally, as I already mentioned: Yes, even the embodiments of alignments may change their alignment, but this comes sooner or later with a transmutation into something completely new, wether it's a risen fiend, a fallen celestial or an embodiment of Law or Chaos switching to the other side (see also asuras).
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2022-12-20, 08:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
There is enough of a time gap, for a "non-evil fiend" to exist for a while. Eludocia the Succubus Paladin still has her Evil subtype, and banishment spells will still send her to her home plane, the Abyss.
Avamerin, the fallen Planetar in the Exemplars of Evil adventure revolving around the obyrith lord Sertruous, still has the Good subtype.
And so forth.
The "transmutation into something completely new" is not immediate. May take decades, or even centuries.
Since Trap the Soul spells work on all outsiders (once-mortals, and never-mortals) all outsiders have souls. Including rasts. To be fair, Trap the Soul traps the body as well - it's Soul Bind that separates the soul from the (newly dead) body. That works on outsiders too.
An outsider's soul is more "tied to its body" than a mortal's (hence the need for True Resurrection to bring a slain outsider back to life) - but it is still separatable.Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-12-20 at 09:08 AM.
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2022-12-20, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
I would prefer to keep talking until I can ask my questions in a way that’s not confrontational, but there’s a push for me to get back on topic, so here we go.
Rich picked a MitD with a statblock that is effectively hundreds of pages long. He can’t memorize it, it’s difficult to find things he needs for one throwaway scene, and there’s an extra layer of organization, namely that he has to keep track of everything he’s already used in order to understand his own scenes as written.
This is exponentially more work than literally any monster whose statblack is confined to a page or two.
Is there a payoff for this? What is Rich getting for all this work?
You seem willing to use indirect evidence to assess people’s motives and then use those motives to help you understand people’s output. I feel like you would be better at answering the payoff question than people who don’t do this.
I'm going with "exaggerated patience" now.Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2022-12-20 at 09:26 AM.
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2022-12-20, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
...One, i'm gonna need some clarification on your understanding of the Prothean as being "hundreds of pages long", two, as I said, I don't think trying to psychoanalyze someone none of us have ever actually met over the Internet, or doing that in general, is a very productive avenue.
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2022-12-20, 09:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
Im sorry, what? Rich isnt inventing the monster stat block whole cloth. He didn't write the books all out and then pick a monster, since if nothing else the books arent all written yet, and certainly weren't at the time he picked its species. Theres nothing to indicate that, assuming its a D&D monster, the MITD has a stat block any more complicated than any other stat block.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2022-12-20, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
The good news is that you have not, in fact, gone off-topic. Given that a significant number of candidates are in fact embodiments of various morality planes (devils/demons/etc.), I do like to see a thorough discussion on what this means, precisely. I can't participate, but I am trying to follow. I can only really assist by referrencing a quote from Rich as this all applies to OotS in general:
Originally Posted by The Giant, Round 4 Commentary
Yeah, I second a hearty [citation neeeded] on that "hundreds of pages long". It applies to exactly 0 candidates. The longest stat block I've seen is for dragons, and that's because they keep lumping all kinds of colours into the same page. And even then, it's hardly "hundreds", and of course you can just scroll down to the colour you want.
Thanks,
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2022-12-20 at 09:47 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2022-12-20, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2022-12-20, 10:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
Right, that one too. To be clear, I do not see a contradiction between "[embodiments] can['t] fail to live up to her own ideals" and "[embodiments have] human feelings and drives". I am of the opinion that in OotS, embodiments have limited free will - they are free to wander all over their inherent alignment, but cannot leave it (and otherwise have full free will) - it just they can't change alignment anymore than I can fly under my own power: we just aren't built for it. And it does not stop them from forming partnerships or friendships with other embodiments - i.e. they are flexible enough to exist along side, and work with, other embodiments who don't share their outlook but do share their goals. But for all their collaborations, Lee, Nero and Cedrick won't somehow all converge into Neutral (or Chaotic or Lawful). Each will stay in their alignment, closer to the edge of Neutral, but never fully able to switch.
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2022-12-20, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
That is correct. I don't think it contradicts my points. A fiend that takes on a Good alignment starts out as pure Evil, but is "stained" with Good, before evolving into something else.
Since Trap the Soul spells work on all outsiders (once-mortals, and never-mortals) all outsiders have souls. Including rasts. To be fair, Trap the Soul traps the body as well - it's Soul Bind that separates the soul from the (newly dead) body. That works on outsiders too.
An outsider's soul is more "tied to its body" than a mortal's (hence the need for True Resurrection to bring a slain outsider back to life) - but it is still separatable.Originally Posted by SRD
That is a relief for something that began as just quibbling over terminology.
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2022-12-20, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
There's a reason why the True Resurrection spell does work on outsiders,
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm
This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.
Complete Divine page 130
The souls of outsiders and elementals are so intrinsically tied to the essence of their home plane that they evaporate into the fabric of the plane rather quickly. That's why it takes a true resurrection spell to bring them back from the dead; the magic must sift through the plane and reconstitute their dispersed souls.
After the body is slain, the soul is not destroyed with the body (because the two are the same thing), but dispersed.
The SRD description oversimplifies - and the rules themselves make that clear.Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-12-20 at 11:08 AM.
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2022-12-20, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
There is no contradiction between those two points. Did you never wonder why so many outsiders dissolve, dissipate or explode after death? Why they generally don't leave bodies behind? Because of that. Their soul which is also their body dissipates into their plane. So yeah, no contradiction.
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2022-12-20, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
The Demonic Death Throes table allows for the corpse to remain (possibly with just the skin peeled away). Not every demon's corpse instantly disappears upon death. And other Outsiders aren't necessarily specified as having similar "body-destroying death throes".
The Revive Outsider spell would be completely pointless if no Outsider left a body behind.
Actually, it describes manes as "larvae demons" - not the same thing as "NE larvae petitioners" - just "demons at the beginning of their life cycle" - larvae in the sense of "caterpillars" to adult insects. So, no contradiction.
Originally Posted by FC1: p8Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-12-20 at 12:23 PM.
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2022-12-20, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
I find it odd that the half dozen posts to which I was replying which extoled the virtues of protean as a choice were not met with the vitriol my opposition to it has been. They brought nothing new to the discussion after all.
My points have not been refuted, and many posts saying how wrong I am have not addressed their substance. Many ridiculed my posting of the PF protean and insisted that invalidated my thesis, some accused me wrongly of insulting the author.
No one has said how a protean can stay the same shape or assume the same appearance when the source says it cannot. Because it chooses to is not a valid answer because proteans cannot maintain a form without round-by-round concentration.
No one has said how the protean can tolerate and befriend non shape changers when the sourcebooks say it cannot. Mr.Stiffly, for example, would have been a real challenge for a protean, but MitD invited him for tea.
No one has said why a creature tainted with chaos would want to associate with a cleric of Law, and even be on good terms with him.
No one has said why a creature that can plane shift would have stuck around to be imprisoned, or stayed long after it realized it opposed the goals of its master.
'Because the author can do what he wants' is a valid statement. However, the author has said that the MitD's species can be guessed based on what is in the comic. No one has said how we are supposed to recognize a creature which has major characteristics altered from what is printed in the monster's description.
Your ball again.Last edited by brian 333; 2022-12-20 at 12:49 PM.
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2022-12-20, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
For the record, since this is the second time you have mentioned being mocked or having vitriol directed at you: if you consider my post about the Kevin Smith story one of those, I would like to clear things up and say I was referring to you going to the well of 1st edition twice despite it not being relevant to the discussion, jsut as the fiercest animal or insect is not really relevant to Superman.
If I am wrong and you saw that post as that already, then I apologize for assuming otherwise.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2022-12-20, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
In Planescape, every of the great outsider races (and a few other beings that would be outsiders in 3.x, like genies and mephits) are described as having death throes. 3.5 says that demons and devils have them, but doesn't explicitely say that other outsiders don't, so...
And that sometimes a body is left behind is not a contradiction. It's Chaos, if never something ****y happened, it would be too predictable.
The Revive Outsider spell would be completely pointless if no Outsider left a body behind.
Actually, it describes manes as "larvae demons" - not the same thing as "NE larvae petitioners" - just "demons at the beginning of their life cycle" - larvae in the sense of "caterpillars" to adult insects. So, no contradiction.
Originally Posted by Fiendish Codex 1, pg. 108
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2022-12-20, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
That bit is a little odd. However, further down the same page:
Most petitioners in the Abyss manifest as manes, pale white creatures with oozing sores and bloated, maggot-ridden bellies. Manes vaguely resemble their mortal forms, but the shock of the transformation from mortal to petitioner is overwhelming, and the psychic pain is so great that a mane remembers little of its original life except that it has lost something precious, and that sense is enough to drive the creature to violence and madness.
So, manes are petitioners themselves - and the majority of Abyssal petitioners are manes - even in FC1.
I'd go with "Most larvae are NE and manifest in Hades, but a few larvae are CE and manifest in the Abyss".
The spell functions as Raise Dead, not Resurrection. And says "Dead outsider touched". And the picture shows an angel using the spell on the whole corpse of a slain angel. It's pretty unambiguous.
If the Outsider type and the Elemental type made a creature immune to spells that "separate the spell from the body" - one would expect that the stuff about "soul and body form one unit" would go on to say that "so, any magic that separates the soul from the body fails to function on such creatures."
But it doesn't.
RAW, an Imprison Soul spell, or a demilich's Trap The Soul ability, work just fine on Outsiders or Elementals.
Soul and body might normally form one unit - but magic can still split them. And being "physically slain" doesn't destroy the soul - only dispersing it. Etc.Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-12-20 at 01:39 PM.
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2022-12-20, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
Gonna be honest, my main reaction to this debate has been "3.5 splatbooks are an inconsistent mess, news at 11."
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2022-12-20, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
FC2's description for devils - they turn into a puddle of ooze, between 3 and 9 minutes after death. And 99 years later, that puddle of ooze returns to Baator and reincarnates (possibly with demotion).
In Baator itself, the devil just "stays dead" - no puddle of ooze transformation specified.
Plenty of room for Animate Dead spells, Revive Outsider, and so on, to take place prior to the body's devolution.
Dragon Magazine 324's "More Bang For Your Bones" article recommends various Outsiders as the best choices for Skeletons - titans, marilith demons, pit fiend devils.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2022-12-20, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
I always understood "most petitioners manifest as manes" as "most petitioners transform into manes" (as opposed to other demons). But that may be because I generally work with the German translation, which uses different language at this point. (Also, it fits Planescape, where most, but not all, petitioners (be they larvae or otherwise) evolve into manes.)
The spell functions as Raise Dead, not Resurrection. And says "Dead outsider touched". And the picture shows an angel using the spell on the whole corpse of a slain angel. It's pretty unambiguous.
If the Outsider type and the Elemental type made a creature immune to spells that "separate the spell from the body" - one would expect that the stuff about "soul and body form one unit" would go on to say that "so, any magic that separates the soul from the body fails to function on such creatures."
But it doesn't.
RAW, an Imprison Soul spell, or a demilich's Trap The Soul ability, work just fine on Outsiders or Elementals.
But even with that, there is no contradiction. A spell like that traps the soul, leaving no body behind. Because. The body. And. The soul. Are. The same thing.
And being "physically slain" doesn't destroy the soul - only dispersing it. Etc.Last edited by Tzardok; 2022-12-20 at 02:33 PM.
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2022-12-20, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
Its a little like a sports discussion. If you say nice things about your team, fellow supporters will probably quietly support you without adding much, and only the staunchest haters will take the opportunity to rebut you. On the other hand, if you start publicly trashing a team, their supporters will boil out of the woodwork to defend them. A couple cranky drunks might agree with you, but mostly you have to fight the battles you pick.
Saying something positive about the Protean may be repetitive, but since its by far #1 in the league tables many folks agree with you and silently agree. But if you slag them off, then you get to fight those many defenders as is happening with you.
Its a little different if you're formally requesting something be considered for promotion to, or relegation from, the FBS list or some other change to the initial posts (like how voting is done or something). You're requesting something happen in that situation rather than casually trying to convince the crowd of your point, so people will generally take it a bit more seriously. There are bars to be gotten over or under, so while the debate can get heated, it tends to be more... formal, I guess, because those hurdles set a framework around the discussion beyond "This is why I like/dislike X and you should, too" which can go anywhere.Last edited by Crusher; 2022-12-20 at 02:54 PM.
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2022-12-20, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
It specifically states for the demilich version (as opposed to the regular version) a body is left behind - which crumbles into a moldy mess. Result - a soul with no body, inside one of the demilich's gems.
IMO it's "the body and soul form one unit" which is the fudgeable part - with plenty of exceptions - spells where a body is destroyed but a soul is still present. Or a soul is specifically split from a body, leaving it alive but dying slowly.
RAW if you cast the Imprison Soul spell (from Heroes of Horror) on an angel, it will work - result - a dying but not yet dead angel body, losing CON points at regular intervals - and an angel's soul, inside a receptacle.
RAW, a nightmare can astral project just fine if it wants to - result - a soulless but living body (until the spell ends), and a soul roaming the Astral Plane.
And so forth.
Instead of thinking of them as united, think of the soul as just having a strong tie to the body - a tie that can still be broken.Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-12-20 at 03:03 PM.
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2022-12-20, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
Maybe I overestimated. If I asked you to show me every extraordinary ability the Protean could assume, how many pages would it take?
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2022-12-20, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
Does it specifically say that if used on outsider, a body is left behind? No? In that case, leaving the body behind only happens for beings that have soul seperate from their body, not for non-dual beings.
I really feel like you are ignoring half of what I'm saying (and you are ignoring the description of outsider too). I tire of repeating myself all the time, so if that was your goal you've accomplished it.Last edited by Tzardok; 2022-12-20 at 03:05 PM.
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2022-12-20, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
It doesn't need to. The standard rule is that soul is separated from body, and that body suffers 1d4 Con damage every subsequent day. The spell is not called out as failing to work on Outsiders, or on Elementals. So it works.
Ruleswise, "soul and body form one unit" only matters for 3 spells - Raise Dead, Reincarnate, and Resurrection. All other soul-related effects work on outsiders - even ones that separate soul from body.
The Outsider and Elemental types do not specify what happens with other spells or effects besides those 3 - so they work as normal.
For that matter, the Native subtype doesn't specifically state that soul and body form 2 units, overriding the standard rules for Outsiders - yet those 3 spells do work.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubt...#nativeSubtype
SpoilerNative Subtype
A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.
Nothing in there about "soul and body are separate units".Last edited by hamishspence; 2022-12-20 at 03:21 PM.
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2022-12-20, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic
AND I NEVER SAID THEY WOULD FAIL! I SAID THEY WOULD WORK DIFFERENTLY BY NOT LEAVING A BODY BEHIND!
**** it, you win. I am wrong about everything. Outsiders are just meatbodies piloted around by mortal souls and certainly work completely the same way as living things or whatever else you wanted to prove by this whole unnecessary exercise. I don't care anymore.
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2022-12-20, 03:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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