MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Repeatedly asserting that I am wrong is not the same as addressing my points.

False. It is addressing your points, given we also told you how you were wrong. What you should have said is that your points had not been addressed to your satisfaction. But they have been addressed. And given everything else you just said has already been addressed in the OP, in Ruck's essay, and in every answer you've been given, and the only problem here is that you simply don't like the answers, I'm not spending any more time addressing your points.

Like I said at the start, and several times since: we are not here to convince you of anything. If you don't like the protean as a candidate, you don't like it. Your options then are to pick something else from the list or from off it, or to simply remain unconvinced. But until such time as you bring something new to the table (and no, this post did not bring anything new to the table - I could literally answer every single one of your so-called "unaddressed" points by quoting from the OP, the d20 SRD page for the protean, Ruck's essay or previous answers in the very thread - I am not going to keep repeating the same things over and over to you just to have you ignore them all and pretend they haven't been given to you.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

BoVD was written after Manual of the Planes though.

And Complete Divine, written after that (one of the first 3.5 splatbooks to deal with the afterlife) continues MotP's theme of "not all souls in the afterlife are petitioners".


The point being that fiends as "the embodiment of Evil" overstates things slightly - it is possible for a fiend to cease to be Evil and still be a fiend - still be "native to a Lower Plane" - and an Outsider, and have the Evil subtype.

An Extraplanar Outsider has a soul - though it's much more tied to the matter of its body than a mortal's soul is, and requires much more powerful magic to restore.

IMO it's reasonable to say that the soul in question "is the soul of the mortal that the Outsider was in life - it isn't a new soul, replacing a destroyed one.



so "Devils generally are, in essence, mortal souls tainted with Law and Evil" is valid terminology. and "are embodiments of Law and Evil" is less accurate, generally speaking.

Theyre literal physical manifestations of the energy of Law and Evil, so it may be "less" accurate, but is still accurate even if they dont strictly have to behave in a Lawful Evil manner. Theyre physically made of Evil, so I think the word embodiment applies.

It is, frankly, part of why I dislike the idea of redeemed fiends. The whole point is that they arent just evil mortals.

[hamishspence]

Fallen celestials and risen fiends exist in multiple editions though - they're not just a 3.5-ism.

[Keltest]

Fallen celestials and risen fiends exist in multiple editions though - they're not just a 3.5-ism.

Not sure why that matters. Its the idea I dont like, not any given execution.

[Tzardok]

BoVD was written after Manual of the Planes though.

So what? Fiendish Codex 1 was also written after it. And disagrees with it.

An Extraplanar Outsider has a soul - though it's much more tied to the matter of its body than a mortal's soul is, and requires much more powerful magic to restore.

IMO it's reasonable to say that the soul in question "is the soul of the mortal that the Outsider was in life - it isn't a new soul, replacing a destroyed one.

And this, I think, is the main point of our disagreement. An outsider does not have a soul. An outsider is a soul. Or better, a spiritual phenomenon in physical form, which one could call "a soul" (this phenomenon is not always the same as a soul, as can be seen by for example the rast, which is a native to Fire and not based on mortal souls). And in the case of a baatezu, this "soul" is completely and utterly Lawful Evil.

Now that I think about it, another important point of disagreement is that I don't see alignment as seperate from the soul, but a property of it.
So when I say "everything that isn't Lawful Evil is cooked out", then I don't mean "we take out the soul, until only Lawful Evil remains", I mean "we take out every part of the soul that is chaotic or good or whatever and only leave the Lawful Evil part of it behind".

I certainly don't claim that a new soul is created for a baatezu. The soul is transmuted into the baatezu. That's what a baatezu is: a solidified soul, purified of everything that isn't Lawful Evil, taking a shape that mocks mortal anatomy.

Finally, as I already mentioned: Yes, even the embodiments of alignments may change their alignment, but this comes sooner or later with a transmutation into something completely new, wether it's a risen fiend, a fallen celestial or an embodiment of Law or Chaos switching to the other side (see also asuras).

[hamishspence]

Yes, even the embodiments of alignments may change their alignment, but this comes sooner or later with a transmutation into something completely new, wether it's a risen fiend, a fallen celestial or an embodiment of Law or Chaos switching to the other side (see also asuras).

There is enough of a time gap, for a "non-evil fiend" to exist for a while. Eludocia the Succubus Paladin still has her Evil subtype, and banishment spells will still send her to her home plane, the Abyss.

Avamerin, the fallen Planetar in the Exemplars of Evil adventure revolving around the obyrith lord Sertruous, still has the Good subtype.

And so forth.


The "transmutation into something completely new" is not immediate. May take decades, or even centuries.

An outsider is a soul. Or better, a spiritual phenomenon in physical form, which one could call "a soul" (this phenomenon is not always the same as a soul, as can be seen by for example the rast, which is a native to Fire and not based on mortal souls).

Since Trap the Soul spells work on all outsiders (once-mortals, and never-mortals) all outsiders have souls. Including rasts. To be fair, Trap the Soul traps the body as well - it's Soul Bind that separates the soul from the (newly dead) body. That works on outsiders too.

An outsider's soul is more "tied to its body" than a mortal's (hence the need for True Resurrection to bring a slain outsider back to life) - but it is still separatable.

[Tubercular Ox]

I would prefer to keep talking until I can ask my questions in a way that’s not confrontational, but there’s a push for me to get back on topic, so here we go.

Rich picked a MitD with a statblock that is effectively hundreds of pages long. He can’t memorize it, it’s difficult to find things he needs for one throwaway scene, and there’s an extra layer of organization, namely that he has to keep track of everything he’s already used in order to understand his own scenes as written.

This is exponentially more work than literally any monster whose statblack is confined to a page or two.

Is there a payoff for this? What is Rich getting for all this work?

No, your terminology--"forced into...information-only format"--mainly shows that when you can't get people to agree with you you'll try to score on them instead.

Well, that is quite a bit more personal than what you said the first time, but if you want to change "how Rich is treated here" to "how you treat Rich," feel free.

You seem willing to use indirect evidence to assess people’s motives and then use those motives to help you understand people’s output. I feel like you would be better at answering the payoff question than people who don’t do this.

What, exactly, makes you view it as so negative?

I'm going with "exaggerated patience" now.

[woweedd]

I would prefer to keep talking until I can ask my questions in a way that’s not confrontational, but there’s a push for me to get back on topic, so here we go.

Rich picked a MitD with a statblock that is effectively hundreds of pages long. He can’t memorize it, it’s difficult to find things he needs for one throwaway scene, and there’s an extra layer of organization, namely that he has to keep track of everything he’s already used in order to understand his own scenes as written.

This is exponentially more work than literally any monster whose statblack is confined to a page or two.

Is there a payoff for this? What is Rich getting for all this work?





You seem willing to use indirect evidence to assess people’s motives and then use those motives to help you understand people’s output. I feel like you would be better at answering the payoff question than people who don’t do this.



I'm going with "exaggerated patience" now.

...One, i'm gonna need some clarification on your understanding of the Prothean as being "hundreds of pages long", two, as I said, I don't think trying to psychoanalyze someone none of us have ever actually met over the Internet, or doing that in general, is a very productive avenue.

[Keltest]

Rich picked a MitD with a statblock that is effectively hundreds of pages long. He can’t memorize it, it’s difficult to find things he needs for one throwaway scene, and there’s an extra layer of organization, namely that he has to keep track of everything he’s already used in order to understand his own scenes as written.

Im sorry, what? Rich isnt inventing the monster stat block whole cloth. He didn't write the books all out and then pick a monster, since if nothing else the books arent all written yet, and certainly weren't at the time he picked its species. Theres nothing to indicate that, assuming its a D&D monster, the MITD has a stat block any more complicated than any other stat block.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It also has left the rails of the thread somewhere 2 km behind.

The good news is that you have not, in fact, gone off-topic. Given that a significant number of candidates are in fact embodiments of various morality planes (devils/demons/etc.), I do like to see a thorough discussion on what this means, precisely. I can't participate, but I am trying to follow. I can only really assist by referrencing a quote from Rich as this all applies to OotS in general:

It's important to note that this doesn't necessarily make Celia right in her views. Heck, they're not even all that consistent, considering she has been known to fly off the handle and zap people from time to time. Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals, as she does later when she finds herself cheering while Haley shoots people. She wants to be a pacifist, but she can get caught up in the excitement of battle the same as anyone else.

Now, I'm afraid I have only skimmed so far, and I can't claim to have follow the details of your back and forth, but I believe you guys have been touching on whether the embodiments can change alignment (something something ex-demon paladin, I think? Sorry if I'm mangling the details. I swear I'll find time later to catch up and absorb the back-and-forth better). I do get the feeling that "hodgepodge of contradictions" best described the "rules" of embodiments, but it feels like Rich "picked a side" if you will, at least when it comes to OotS.

...One, i'm gonna need some clarification on your understanding of the Prothean as being "hundreds of pages long".

Yeah, I second a hearty [citation neeeded] on that "hundreds of pages long". It applies to exactly 0 candidates. The longest stat block I've seen is for dragons, and that's because they keep lumping all kinds of colours into the same page. And even then, it's hardly "hundreds", and of course you can just scroll down to the colour you want.

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

I do get the feeling that "hodgepodge of contradictions" best described the "rules" of embodiments, but it feels like Rich "picked a side" if you will, at least when it comes to OotS.

The Giant's position on demons:

I generally have a much more lenient position on explicitly magical beings like demons. Even though I still choose to treat them with human feelings and drives, I am less critical of works that don't. Simply because, as you say, there could be some utility in that, at least theoretically.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Giant's position on demons:

Right, that one too. To be clear, I do not see a contradiction between "[embodiments] can['t] fail to live up to her own ideals" and "[embodiments have] human feelings and drives". I am of the opinion that in OotS, embodiments have limited free will - they are free to wander all over their inherent alignment, but cannot leave it (and otherwise have full free will) - it just they can't change alignment anymore than I can fly under my own power: we just aren't built for it. And it does not stop them from forming partnerships or friendships with other embodiments - i.e. they are flexible enough to exist along side, and work with, other embodiments who don't share their outlook but do share their goals. But for all their collaborations, Lee, Nero and Cedrick won't somehow all converge into Neutral (or Chaotic or Lawful). Each will stay in their alignment, closer to the edge of Neutral, but never fully able to switch.

Grey Wolf

[Tzardok]

There is enough of a time gap, for a "non-evil fiend" to exist for a while. Eludocia the Succubus Paladin still has her Evil subtype, and banishment spells will still send her to her home plane, the Abyss.

Avamerin, the fallen Planetar in the Exemplars of Evil adventure revolving around the obyrith lord Sertruous, still has the Good subtype.

And so forth.


The "transmutation into something completely new" is not immediate. May take decades, or even centuries.

That is correct. I don't think it contradicts my points. A fiend that takes on a Good alignment starts out as pure Evil, but is "stained" with Good, before evolving into something else.

Since Trap the Soul spells work on all outsiders (once-mortals, and never-mortals) all outsiders have souls. Including rasts. To be fair, Trap the Soul traps the body as well - it's Soul Bind that separates the soul from the (newly dead) body. That works on outsiders too.

An outsider's soul is more "tied to its body" than a mortal's (hence the need for True Resurrection to bring a slain outsider back to life) - but it is still separatable.

Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit

In other words, the outsider does not have a soul seperate from the body. It's soul is it's body, and you can't seperate them.

The good news is that you have not, in fact, gone off-topic. Given that a significant number of candidates are in fact embodiments of various morality planes (devils/demons/etc.), I do like to see a thorough discussion on what this means, precisely. I can't participate, but I am trying to follow. I can only really assist by referrencing a quote from Rich as this all applies to OotS in general:

That is a relief for something that began as just quibbling over terminology.

[hamishspence]

In other words, the outsider does not have a soul seperate from the body. It's soul is it's body, and you can't seperate them.

There's a reason why the True Resurrection spell does work on outsiders,

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm

This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures.

and the 3.5 splatbook Complete Divine outlines that reason.

Complete Divine page 130

The souls of outsiders and elementals are so intrinsically tied to the essence of their home plane that they evaporate into the fabric of the plane rather quickly. That's why it takes a true resurrection spell to bring them back from the dead; the magic must sift through the plane and reconstitute their dispersed souls.

There's also a separate, lower level spell in Spell Compendium that does the same thing - Revive Outsider.

After the body is slain, the soul is not destroyed with the body (because the two are the same thing), but dispersed.

The SRD description oversimplifies - and the rules themselves make that clear.

[Tzardok]

There is no contradiction between those two points. Did you never wonder why so many outsiders dissolve, dissipate or explode after death? Why they generally don't leave bodies behind? Because of that. Their soul which is also their body dissipates into their plane. So yeah, no contradiction.

[hamishspence]

Did you never wonder why so many outsiders dissolve, dissipate or explode after death? Why they generally don't leave bodies behind? Because of that. Their soul which is also their body dissipates into their plane. So yeah, no contradiction.

The Demonic Death Throes table allows for the corpse to remain (possibly with just the skin peeled away). Not every demon's corpse instantly disappears upon death. And other Outsiders aren't necessarily specified as having similar "body-destroying death throes".

The Revive Outsider spell would be completely pointless if no Outsider left a body behind.

3.x is self-contradictory in that regard. The Manual of Planes for example names manes as the petitioners of the Abyss and larvae as the petitioners of Hades. The Fiendish Codex 1 on the other hand describes the souls in the Abyss as larvae, and those are transformed into manes, dretches or rutterkin.

Fiendish Codex 1 was also written after it. And disagrees with it.

Actually, it describes manes as "larvae demons" - not the same thing as "NE larvae petitioners" - just "demons at the beginning of their life cycle" - larvae in the sense of "caterpillars" to adult insects. So, no contradiction.

The Demonomicon insists that all demonspawn begin as manes (larvae demons) or other lower order fiends, and, over the centuries, progress up a ladder of power and evil until they become dretches or rutterkins at the whim of a powerful nafeshnee or demon prince.

[brian 333]

False. It is addressing your points, given we also told you how you were wrong. What you should have said is that your points had not been addressed to your satisfaction. But they have been addressed. And given everything else you just said has already been addressed in the OP, in Ruck's essay, and in every answer you've been given, and the only problem here is that you simply don't like the answers, I'm not spending any more time addressing your points.

Like I said at the start, and several times since: we are not here to convince you of anything. If you don't like the protean as a candidate, you don't like it. Your options then are to pick something else from the list or from off it, or to simply remain unconvinced. But until such time as you bring something new to the table (and no, this post did not bring anything new to the table - I could literally answer every single one of your so-called "unaddressed" points by quoting from the OP, the d20 SRD page for the protean, Ruck's essay or previous answers in the very thread - I am not going to keep repeating the same things over and over to you just to have you ignore them all and pretend they haven't been given to you.

Grey Wolf

I find it odd that the half dozen posts to which I was replying which extoled the virtues of protean as a choice were not met with the vitriol my opposition to it has been. They brought nothing new to the discussion after all.

My points have not been refuted, and many posts saying how wrong I am have not addressed their substance. Many ridiculed my posting of the PF protean and insisted that invalidated my thesis, some accused me wrongly of insulting the author.

No one has said how a protean can stay the same shape or assume the same appearance when the source says it cannot. Because it chooses to is not a valid answer because proteans cannot maintain a form without round-by-round concentration.

No one has said how the protean can tolerate and befriend non shape changers when the sourcebooks say it cannot. Mr.Stiffly, for example, would have been a real challenge for a protean, but MitD invited him for tea.

No one has said why a creature tainted with chaos would want to associate with a cleric of Law, and even be on good terms with him.

No one has said why a creature that can plane shift would have stuck around to be imprisoned, or stayed long after it realized it opposed the goals of its master.

'Because the author can do what he wants' is a valid statement. However, the author has said that the MitD's species can be guessed based on what is in the comic. No one has said how we are supposed to recognize a creature which has major characteristics altered from what is printed in the monster's description.

Your ball again.

[Peelee]

I find it odd that the half dozen posts to which I was replying which extoled the virtues of protean as a choice were not met with the vitriol my opposition to it has been.

For the record, since this is the second time you have mentioned being mocked or having vitriol directed at you: if you consider my post about the Kevin Smith story one of those, I would like to clear things up and say I was referring to you going to the well of 1st edition twice despite it not being relevant to the discussion, jsut as the fiercest animal or insect is not really relevant to Superman.

If I am wrong and you saw that post as that already, then I apologize for assuming otherwise.

[Tzardok]

The Demonic Death Throes table allows for the corpse to remain (possibly with just the skin peeled away). Not every demon's corpse instantly disappears upon death. And other Outsiders aren't necessarily specified as having similar "body-destroying death throes".

In Planescape, every of the great outsider races (and a few other beings that would be outsiders in 3.x, like genies and mephits) are described as having death throes. 3.5 says that demons and devils have them, but doesn't explicitely say that other outsiders don't, so...

And that sometimes a body is left behind is not a contradiction. It's Chaos, if never something ****y happened, it would be too predictable.

The Revive Outsider spell would be completely pointless if no Outsider left a body behind.

Both BoVD and FC 1 imply that it is possible to conserve an outsider's body or at least body parts (see for example using fiend body parts as alternate material compenents). Revive Outsider could work with that; the description never mentions the outsider's body or its state.

Actually, it describes manes as "larvae demons" - not the same thing as "NE larvae petitioners" - just "demons at the beginning of their life cycle" - larvae in the sense of "caterpillars" to adult insects. So, no contradiction.

Please read at least the whole book:

Petitioners
The most pitiful souls of chaotic evil mortals come to the Abyss in the form of larvae, sickly yellow Medium worms with distorted human faces. [...] By bending the tenuous natural laws of the Abyss, a demon might “promote” a larva into a proper demon such as a quasit, dretch, manes, or rutterkin, while larvae of exceptionally evil pedigree—such as the soul of a great dictator or violent mastermind—might evolve immediately into a much more potent demon.

Does that description seem familiar? It should be, these Larvae have after all the exact same appearance as the "NE larvae petitioners" and are described as petitioners by the book.

[hamishspence]

Does that description seem familiar? It should be, these Larvae have after all the exact same appearance as the "NE larvae petitioners" and are described as petitioners by the book.

That bit is a little odd. However, further down the same page:

Most petitioners in the Abyss manifest as manes, pale white creatures with oozing sores and bloated, maggot-ridden bellies. Manes vaguely resemble their mortal forms, but the shock of the transformation from mortal to petitioner is overwhelming, and the psychic pain is so great that a mane remembers little of its original life except that it has lost something precious, and that sense is enough to drive the creature to violence and madness.

So, manes are petitioners themselves - and the majority of Abyssal petitioners are manes - even in FC1.

I'd go with "Most larvae are NE and manifest in Hades, but a few larvae are CE and manifest in the Abyss".

Both BoVD and FC 1 imply that it is possible to conserve an outsider's body or at least body parts (see for example using fiend body parts as alternate material compenents). Revive Outsider could work with that; the description never mentions the outsider's body or its state.

The spell functions as Raise Dead, not Resurrection. And says "Dead outsider touched". And the picture shows an angel using the spell on the whole corpse of a slain angel. It's pretty unambiguous.


If the Outsider type and the Elemental type made a creature immune to spells that "separate the spell from the body" - one would expect that the stuff about "soul and body form one unit" would go on to say that "so, any magic that separates the soul from the body fails to function on such creatures."

But it doesn't.

RAW, an Imprison Soul spell, or a demilich's Trap The Soul ability, work just fine on Outsiders or Elementals.

Soul and body might normally form one unit - but magic can still split them. And being "physically slain" doesn't destroy the soul - only dispersing it. Etc.

[Keltest]

Gonna be honest, my main reaction to this debate has been "3.5 splatbooks are an inconsistent mess, news at 11."

[hamishspence]

3.5 says that demons and devils have them, but doesn't explicitely say that other outsiders don't

FC2's description for devils - they turn into a puddle of ooze, between 3 and 9 minutes after death. And 99 years later, that puddle of ooze returns to Baator and reincarnates (possibly with demotion).


In Baator itself, the devil just "stays dead" - no puddle of ooze transformation specified.

Plenty of room for Animate Dead spells, Revive Outsider, and so on, to take place prior to the body's devolution.

Dragon Magazine 324's "More Bang For Your Bones" article recommends various Outsiders as the best choices for Skeletons - titans, marilith demons, pit fiend devils.

[Tzardok]

That bit is a little odd. However, further down the same page:




So, manes are petitioners themselves - and the majority of Abyssal petitioners are manes - even in FC1.

I'd go with "Most larvae are NE and manifest in Hades, but a few larvae are CE and manifest in the Abyss".

I always understood "most petitioners manifest as manes" as "most petitioners transform into manes" (as opposed to other demons). But that may be because I generally work with the German translation, which uses different language at this point. (Also, it fits Planescape, where most, but not all, petitioners (be they larvae or otherwise) evolve into manes.)

The spell functions as Raise Dead, not Resurrection. And says "Dead outsider touched". And the picture shows an angel using the spell on the whole corpse of a slain angel. It's pretty unambiguous.

Pictures are irrelevant. There's a picture of the iconic cleric casting Symbol of Pain despite being of Good alignment and serving a Good god.

If the Outsider type and the Elemental type made a creature immune to spells that "separate the spell from the body" - one would expect that the stuff about "soul and body form one unit" would go on to say that "so, any magic that separates the soul from the body fails to function on such creatures."

But it doesn't.

RAW, an Imprison Soul spell, or a demilich's Trap The Soul ability, work just fine on Outsiders or Elementals.

Abilities are written in a humanoid-centric way and don't care about edge-cases with other makeups. What a suprise. For another example of this, see also the nightmare using Astral Projection without any modifications mentioned, despite soul and body being united.

But even with that, there is no contradiction. A spell like that traps the soul, leaving no body behind. Because. The body. And. The soul. Are. The same thing.

And being "physically slain" doesn't destroy the soul - only dispersing it. Etc.

Nobody claimed that. I did refute that claim beforehand. It annoys me having to repeat myself.

[Crusher]

I find it odd that the half dozen posts to which I was replying which extoled the virtues of protean as a choice were not met with the vitriol my opposition to it has been. They brought nothing new to the discussion after all.

Its a little like a sports discussion. If you say nice things about your team, fellow supporters will probably quietly support you without adding much, and only the staunchest haters will take the opportunity to rebut you. On the other hand, if you start publicly trashing a team, their supporters will boil out of the woodwork to defend them. A couple cranky drunks might agree with you, but mostly you have to fight the battles you pick.

Saying something positive about the Protean may be repetitive, but since its by far #1 in the league tables many folks agree with you and silently agree. But if you slag them off, then you get to fight those many defenders as is happening with you.

Its a little different if you're formally requesting something be considered for promotion to, or relegation from, the FBS list or some other change to the initial posts (like how voting is done or something). You're requesting something happen in that situation rather than casually trying to convince the crowd of your point, so people will generally take it a bit more seriously. There are bars to be gotten over or under, so while the debate can get heated, it tends to be more... formal, I guess, because those hurdles set a framework around the discussion beyond "This is why I like/dislike X and you should, too" which can go anywhere.

[hamishspence]

A spell like that traps the soul, leaving no body behind. Because. The body. And. The soul. Are. The same thing.

It specifically states for the demilich version (as opposed to the regular version) a body is left behind - which crumbles into a moldy mess. Result - a soul with no body, inside one of the demilich's gems.

IMO it's "the body and soul form one unit" which is the fudgeable part - with plenty of exceptions - spells where a body is destroyed but a soul is still present. Or a soul is specifically split from a body, leaving it alive but dying slowly.

RAW if you cast the Imprison Soul spell (from Heroes of Horror) on an angel, it will work - result - a dying but not yet dead angel body, losing CON points at regular intervals - and an angel's soul, inside a receptacle.

RAW, a nightmare can astral project just fine if it wants to - result - a soulless but living body (until the spell ends), and a soul roaming the Astral Plane.

And so forth.


Instead of thinking of them as united, think of the soul as just having a strong tie to the body - a tie that can still be broken.

[Tubercular Ox]

Maybe I overestimated. If I asked you to show me every extraordinary ability the Protean could assume, how many pages would it take?

[Tzardok]

It specifically states for the demilich version (as opposed to the regular version) a body is left behind - which crumbles into a moldy mess. Result - a soul with no body, inside one of the demilich's games.

Does it specifically say that if used on outsider, a body is left behind? No? In that case, leaving the body behind only happens for beings that have soul seperate from their body, not for non-dual beings.

I really feel like you are ignoring half of what I'm saying (and you are ignoring the description of outsider too). I tire of repeating myself all the time, so if that was your goal you've accomplished it.

[hamishspence]

Does it specifically say that if used on outsider, a body is left behind? No?

It doesn't need to. The standard rule is that soul is separated from body, and that body suffers 1d4 Con damage every subsequent day. The spell is not called out as failing to work on Outsiders, or on Elementals. So it works.

I really feel like you are ignoring half of what I'm saying (and you are ignoring the description of outsider too).

Ruleswise, "soul and body form one unit" only matters for 3 spells - Raise Dead, Reincarnate, and Resurrection. All other soul-related effects work on outsiders - even ones that separate soul from body.

The Outsider and Elemental types do not specify what happens with other spells or effects besides those 3 - so they work as normal.


For that matter, the Native subtype doesn't specifically state that soul and body form 2 units, overriding the standard rules for Outsiders - yet those 3 spells do work.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubt...#nativeSubtype

Spoiler

Show

Native Subtype

A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

Nothing in there about "soul and body are separate units".

[Tzardok]

It doesn't need to. The standard rule is that soul is separated from body. The spell is not called out as failing to work on Outsiders, or on Elementals. So it works.

AND I NEVER SAID THEY WOULD FAIL! I SAID THEY WOULD WORK DIFFERENTLY BY NOT LEAVING A BODY BEHIND!

**** it, you win. I am wrong about everything. Outsiders are just meatbodies piloted around by mortal souls and certainly work completely the same way as living things or whatever else you wanted to prove by this whole unnecessary exercise. I don't care anymore.

[hamishspence]

AND I NEVER SAID THEY WOULD FAIL! I SAID THEY WOULD WORK DIFFERENTLY BY NOT LEAVING A BODY BEHIND!

But this would break from the rules as written. Making the body disappear (in the case of Imprison Soul) is not what the spell allows for.