MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic

[woweedd]

True Strike (at will) for +20 to hit, then dump 20 HD of BAB into Power Attack for +20 damage. It's a wing slap, possibly a bat-wing slap. Final damage: 1d8+32.

I think the narrative power of an entire 20th level fighter's worth of Power Attack contributes to the art. I think having True Strike contributes to the idea that a Hunting Horror could have found the sweet spot for launching Miko.

But if compelled, I could point out that this combo has a similar effect to +40 strength.



No. I worry about this a lot, but from the point of view of, "What did Rich accidentally get himself into?" I bought my copy of d20 Call of Cthulhu in 2002, which is why I had it ready when I saw someone in the threads had proposed a Chaosium Hunting Horror.


Huge Dragon, advances to Gargantuan and Colossal, tops out at 60 HD. Obviously this is for reference and not a suggestion for the Monster in the Dark.



Well, now, this really does depend on how determined you are to shut down a Hunting Horror. There are no rules for reducing a monster's size. The idea that it should go down in strength by 8 is based on a chart that was printed strictly for advancing monsters to bigger sizes. Dragons with real age categories (not a Hunting Horror) only go up or down 2 str or so per age category.

I can google up no rules on children. Doesn't mean none are there.

But I love how we've gone from "Goblins are Medium, Rich doesn't care," straight back to, "But what rule did he use to shrink it?"



If the worry is that I go on too long, I'll be very brief and invite you to ask more specific questions if it's not enough.

Circus scene: Well, a Hunting Horror would have to psych itself up to go out into the light, even if it dreams of being a star, and it would come out of the light talking about how tough being in the light is, because the light is not a fun place for its skin, even after five years, regardless of how it feels about it in its head.

Oh, wait, you mean the audience reaction. The Hunting Horror forces a sanity check on anyone who sees it, except "monsters" like Goblins (and Liches). Adventurers may or may not have resistance to sanity checks, it's an optional rule. This is "creeping horror" sanity, not "follow the bouncing ball and kill your friends" insanity. You're supposed to encounter several things over the course of a campaign and watch in dread as your character loses sanity points and drifts closer and closer to being removed from play. It's a lot like hit points for cowards and the outmatched.

The circus workers either have adventurer levels, or they've reached maximum sanity damage from a single monster and the Hunting Horror can't inflict any more. This would have no effect on their personalities, especially after five years. They would just be slightly fragile if more nightmares showed up.

Escape Scene: There is no brief explanation for this one. It's a spell. Rich made it following the same rules used to make literally every Call of Cthulhu spell, rules that the rules say you are required to follow. This isn’t optional invent-your-own-spell stuff, it’s a hard requirement.

A Call of Cthulhu spell is like a magical item you keep in your head instead of your pack. In theory it can be used whenever, but it does ability damage (and sanity damage, but a Hunting Horror ignores that), and it's on the DM to make sure you can only use it when it's going to command the plot. As in, the rules explicitly instruct that CoC spells never be mundane, mechanical, or safe. Even a Hunting Horror should have respect for the ones that aren't SLA's.

Tower Scene: End of the day it's Deflect Harm on defense, take 2 Int damage to nullify an entire attack. You make the decision after the attack hits, so a Hunting Horror could use concealment (20% miss chance) or incorporeal smoke form (50% miss chance) to screen out a few blows, and then 24 AC to screen out another one or two at the -10 BAB end. It's guaranteed to take 0-10 Int damage and no other effect.

Offense is as above, a True Strike Power Attack wing slap. Miko even reminds us that Power Attacks exist.

Alignment: It doesn't have a printed alignment. If a Hunting Horror decides to move to the corner before crossing the street, you thank God and keep running.

Scores: Str 34, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 21

Gates: In the Call of Cthulhu setting, a Gate is a circle or pattern on the ground that teleports people through time and space. If Kraagor's Gate is a circle or pattern on the ground, I'm calling shenanigans.

Hunters recognizing MitD: Its listed climate is nighttime/sunless, so it's not where it should be. Hunting Horrors "rarely talk", but if most Hunting Horrors never talk and then one does all the time, that's still "rarely talks."

Readers recognizing MitD: So far, no monster has passed this test.

Avoiding suspicion: The Escape spell is off stat block, so even if Xykon has a Hunting Horror's stat block memorized it may not come to mind.

Meaning of Fine Line: Rich did not make up the Hunting Horror, but he made it a child, changed its size, played with its alignment, fixed a misprint, then gave it a spell. And the spell is uniquely suited for the scene it's in because the rules asked Rich to make the spell be uniquely suited to the DM's plot needs. I think that second sentence represents a much finer line.

Wait...Why would MITD use True Strike in a game of hit the LIGHTEST?

[InvisibleBison]

That said, I found this line on the page for Epic Dragons: "The size modifier for these dragons remains -8." It's pretty vague as written, especially in conjunction with how the age and size categories for these dragons are actually statted out. I'm curious if anyone has a better idea what it actually means. I'm not sure this line of inquiry is fruitful, but the text is confusingly ambiguous and I'm curious about it.

It's talking about the size modifier to AC for Colossal+ sized dragons. I don't think it has any application to this thread, although you never know.

[Ruck]

It's talking about the size modifier to AC for Colossal+ sized dragons. I don't think it has any application to this thread, although you never know.

Thanks. I had my doubts it would be of any use, but I also just wanted to know what it meant since it was ambiguously written.

[lio45]

So what would you call a game where two people hit each other as hard as they can, and the one who hits the lightest wins?

If you recruit two random people and tell them that they are to both punch a punch force tester “as hard as they can”, and the one of the two who has the lesser force wins a million dollars, what do you think will happen?

I’ll answer that for you: they’ll say “yeah yeah, this was my max force” but they’ll both try to hit as lightly as they can {Scrubbed}

[b_jonas]

Wait...Why would MITD use True Strike in a game of hit the LIGHTEST?

True strike doesn't increase the damage, it only reduces the chance to miss. If he misses entirely, that would forfeit the race.

[Peelee]

True strike doesn't increase the damage, it only reduces the chance to miss. If he misses entirely, that would forfeit the race.

Aye. The real question is why would he use Power Attack and put all of True Strike's to hit into damage bonus.

[WanderingMist]

So what would you call a game where two people hit each other as hard as they can, and the one who hits the lightest wins?

A trap, because the person suggesting it usually has the intention of losing.

[Peelee]

A trap, because the person suggesting it usually has the intention of losing.

Except nothing indicates that it's a trap at all. If we assume that he didn't keep to hitting as lightly as he could, why not go ahead and assume he didn't even hit but just used pure magic? That has the exact same amount of support in the comic.

[Keltest]

Except nothing indicates that it's a trap at all. If we assume that he didn't keep to hitting as lightly as he could, why not go ahead and assume he didn't even hit but just used pure magic? That has the exact same amount of support in the comic.

He wasnt talking about the actual game played by the MITD, but Ox's misremembering of the rules. The idea being if somebody challenged you to that game, they are probably planning on decking you.

[lio45]

If we assume that he didn't keep to hitting as lightly as he could,

We cannot assume that, because the Tower Scene’s last panel disproves it: MitD when absolutely alone (i.e. no reason to pretend) sincerely deplores having be unable to avoid losing.

[Peelee]

We cannot assume that, because the Tower Scene’s last panel disproves it: MitD when absolutely alone (i.e. no reason to pretend) sincerely deplores having be unable to avoid losing.

Yes, this was indicated by my first sentence in the post you quoted.

[WanderingMist]

Except nothing indicates that it's a trap at all. If we assume that he didn't keep to hitting as lightly as he could, why not go ahead and assume he didn't even hit but just used pure magic? That has the exact same amount of support in the comic.

Yeah, but the question was what I would call a game with those rules. I know MitD actually meant to win and is either incapable of controlling his strength or accidentally increased it somehow.

[Peelee]

Yeah, but the question was what I would call a game with those rules. I know MitD actually meant to win and is either incapable of controlling his strength or accidentally increased it somehow.

Ha! That's a fair point.

[Neponde]

I know MitD actually meant to win and is either incapable of controlling his strength or accidentally increased it somehow.

Granted, I've only lurked here for a few years, but this is perhaps the best explanation for the tower I've 'scene' since I've come. This makes far more sense than he's just so obscenely strong that he couldn't possibly hit lighter. (Incidentally, maybe that's why he was worried about pulling the rope too. Pure speculation though)

[Tubercular Ox]

Had a good night's sleep on it, I'm going to have one more go at the Tower scene and then people can believe what people want.

It's a legless dragon with one bat-wing taking a full swing and knocking Miko out of the park. I spelled it True Strike, but it's pronounced THWACK, and for every point of Power Attack, the crowd cheers louder. There's a burst of noise when the ball goes over the fence, but all fall quiet if the ball sails on and out of sight.

When the Tower scene was first published, the threads freaked out because they couldn't find a printed attack that could do that. Someone convinced the threads that Rich was probably being artistic and metaphorical, and today we argue over how many Strength points a metaphor has.

I'm offering a different metaphor, based on the anatomy of a Hunting Horror and the resources printed on its stat block. A Hunting Horror gets through the Tower scene by playing baseball. I think it's a better metaphor than the Looney Tunes rocket punch we've been using up to this point. I will admit that Looney Tunes rocket punch was the best metaphor we had for a while, but if an alternative is not enough to get a person to put down the Tower scene and come back to it after looking at other evidence, a person still gets to find out at the same time as the rest of us.

And if people are arguing that Rich is too honorable to connive an extra round of wind up for his pet monster so he can draw a sweet home run hit, go ahead. That's up there with, "It fits too much," and, "The Monster in the Dark's base monster isn't allowed to explain its personality."

[Keltest]

Had a good night's sleep on it, I'm going to have one more go at the Tower scene and then people can believe what people want.

It's a legless dragon with one bat-wing taking a full swing and knocking Miko out of the park. I spelled it True Strike, but it's pronounced THWACK, and for every point of Power Attack, the crowd cheers louder. There's a burst of noise when the ball goes over the fence, but all fall quiet if the ball sails on and out of sight.

When the Tower scene was first published, the threads freaked out because they couldn't find a printed attack that could do that. Someone convinced the threads that Rich was probably being artistic and metaphorical, and today we argue over how many Strength points a metaphor has.

I'm offering a different metaphor, based on the anatomy of a Hunting Horror and the resources printed on its stat block. A Hunting Horror gets through the Tower scene by playing baseball. I think it's a better metaphor than the Looney Tunes rocket punch we've been using up to this point. I will admit that Looney Tunes rocket punch was the best metaphor we had for a while, but if an alternative is not enough to get a person to put down the Tower scene and come back to it after looking at other evidence, a person still gets to find out at the same time as the rest of us.

And if people are arguing that Rich is too honorable to connive an extra round of wind up for his pet monster so he can draw a sweet home run hit, go ahead. That's up there with, "It fits too much," and, "The Monster in the Dark's base monster isn't allowed to explain its personality."

I think theres a major flaw in your logic here. How do you reconcile "playing baseball" with hitting as lightly as possible?

[OvisCaedo]

I also can't really tell what's supposed to change by switching the metaphor to baseball instead.

[Peelee]

Thirded. That just makes the analogy more confusing, not less.

[Tzardok]

It's obvious. Miko is the baseball. That's why she flew so far, despite being hit only lightly. So we are searching for a monster with baseball abilities. In short, it's Baby Ruth.

[Ruck]

I think theres a major flaw in your logic here. How do you reconcile "playing baseball" with hitting as lightly as possible?

I also can't really tell what's supposed to change by switching the metaphor to baseball instead.

Thirded. That just makes the analogy more confusing, not less.

Yeah... I don't understand the point of the metaphors, either, and they seem to just be getting further and further from describing what actually happened.

[Tubercular Ox]

I think theres a major flaw in your logic here. How do you reconcile "playing baseball" with hitting as lightly as possible?

I create a spreadsheet documenting how every appearance of the Monster in the Dark can be explained by reference to a Hunting Horror’s stat block or flavor text, then ask myself if the Monster in the Dark’s honor, weighed against Rich’s need to make a Hunting Horror look as strong as possible, is really enough to make me fall back to the next best candidate.

The fact that everyone’s upset over the lightest thing just underlines that this is something a Hunting Horror can do if it wants to. I’m fine with that. A Hunting Horror can be the Monster in the Dark, it would just be rude.

[WanderingMist]

I think theres a major flaw in your logic here. How do you reconcile "playing baseball" with hitting as lightly as possible?

I believe that's called a "bunt".

[Peelee]

I believe that's called a "bunt".

Yep. And if someone bunts and still knocks the ball out of the park?

[WanderingMist]

Yep. And if someone bunts and still knocks the ball out of the park?

I was under the impression that bunting didn't involve the bat moving at all, so it would be on the pitcher throwing it fast enough.

[Peelee]

I was under the impression that bunting didn't involve the bat moving at all, so it would be on the pitcher throwing it fast enough.

No, bunting typically includes forward motion on the bat - no movement at all would have it be a very simple grab for the catcher.

[OvisCaedo]

The dreaded true strike power attack bunt...

[Peelee]

The dreaded true strike power attack bunt...

Ok that got a good laugh out of me.

[lio45]

Same here lol

Back on topic, I’m all ears for the HH’s best Tower Scene explanation — “so young that he masters his budding powers very poorly, and thus, while intending to bunt, ends up performing a True Strike Power-Attack Homerun Bunt” ?

[Kish]

When the Tower scene was first published, the threads freaked out because they couldn't find a printed attack that could do that.

No.

When the tower scene was first published, lots of people went, "Whoa, he's really strong!" Very few people tried to find a printed attack that could...you know I don't even know what you mean by "do that" here? Given your eagerness to discard the only part that could be at all perplexing--that the creature was hitting as lightly as he can, and thus it doesn't work to stack on any number of "this enhanced his strength here!" abilities unless those abilities are explicitly uncontrollable--I'm guessing "do that" means "knock humans and horses flying through a wall." How completely "you need to find a Printed Attack That Can Do That" misses the point is indicated by the fact that The Threads, the great mass of unwashed potential buyers who really need your product, did not immediately elevate "he has Awesome Blow!" to the status of an established fact.

And honestly, all these metaphors are doing nothing to facilitate communication, but are quite effectively obscuring it. Power Attack may make nonexistent fans scream louder but that doesn't make it go with "trying to hit as lightly as possible."

Although "someone convinced the threads" does continue to fit very well into the sales format, particularly in how it does not at all describe what actually happened. Most people took for granted that the human and horse-shaped holes in the wall were Rich using cartoon physics because it was so much more like other "stick figure comics things," e.g., Roy complaining he can't remember which one of his feet the big shoe goes on, than it was like any kind of serious D&D rules. No one argued for it, no one made a sale and got a set of steak knives for it; most people just used it as their starting point. At least one person did suggest that it should be treated as an indication that the creature had imposed expectations of cartoon physics on the results of his blow with some kind of powerful magic or psionics; that idea received neither mass adulation nor sneering refutation, instead going into the same "yes, that's a possibility, and we don't know yet" as the vast majority of purely speculative posts made by people who do not also make multiple posts indicating that they are offended that an idea they dislike is being prioritized above ideas they like.

[Ruck]

The fact that everyone’s upset over the lightest thing

You're doing it again.

I don't see anyone upset. I see people confused by your metaphors and not seeing how they actually relate to the topic at hand.

And honestly, all these metaphors are doing nothing to facilitate communication, but are quite effectively obscuring it.

I am increasingly on board with you that the "obfuscating language" is half the point.