MitD XVII: [Y]ou were quite clear. I was just being pedantic

[Kish]

I can’t lie that I’m the kind of guy to mention my candidate every time it fits, but for me the way Rich is treated is shocking and worth talking about by itself.

I don’t even know where to go from there. It’s all obvious to me, but I don’t say that to mean that it should be obvious to you. We’re coming from very different places.

I’ll try again, just to keep things going: If he wrote the story for the MitD first, and then picked a monster to fit,

Let me stop you right there. My problem with your arguments (beyond the addiction to obfuscating rhetoric) is that you keep acting like it's either 1) what you're arguing, or 2) something absurd. Find someone in this thread who's argued recently "he wrote the story for the MitD first and then picked a monster to fit"--in a way more actual than "that's all that you see as an alternative to the creature symbolizing something and being a writing prompt"--or this question is irrelevant here.

Let’s just count how many times he said no. First he said no right up front, then he said no with more words, then he said no with different words, and finally he said no because the first three times weren’t enough.

In any other context I have access to, I would be allowed to say he sounds agitated without having to “psychoanalyze” him first.

That is--any other context where it was accurate and valid to convert everything he said into just "no, no, no, no." Which would be...no context at all.

The problem people are having with your arguments isn't that you're defending Rich against goofy assumptions; it's that it appears, for you, that all the myriad possibilities that are neither your assumptions nor the designated nemesis of those assumptions is disappearing into the Astral Plane.

[brian 333]

No, it wasn't, as InvisibleBison already covered. You posted a Pathfinder source for the Protean, which is entirely different from the 3.5 Protean.

The PF source was virtually the same as the D&D source, which is unavailable online and In a book I do not own. Upon reading the D&D source posted in this thread, it turns out the PF protean is actually a better fit for MitD.

Bolded is a meaningless shot at my mental state. Don't get your feelings hurt when he is.

My apologies. It was not intended as a shot. It is a turn of phrase that was common back in the day which means something like, I agree that we disagree. And have no fear about my feelings being hurt, I don't bring them to the argument.

Two, that your other reasons why you are not convinced have to do with your assumptions about how a Protean would behave that are not supported by any text, and that particularly become less relevant in a story where one of the major themes, again, is that species does not dictate character and personality.

And yet, in comic, we see exactly that, over and over. Hobgoblins are militant warmongers, elves are freedom fighters, ogres are bloodthirsty bandits, and so on.

The few alignment differences that we see are actually part of the game, and has been since the beginning. (We did the first half of the original Demonweb pits with a Neutral Good aligned beholder on our team.)

What examples do we have in comic of creatures whose characters and personalities deviate from their species norm?

EDIT: Toward your last point:



Do you have an answer for a monster that fits better than a Protean? If you do, I'd be happy to hear it and discuss it. I don't. The Protean is the best answer I've found and the more I think about it the more it makes sense to me. If you've found something better, I'm happy to listen. I have not, and the MitD has to be something, so I am going with the species I think it is most likely to be.

Has Dao been excluded?

Because we can find flaws and less-than-perfect fits for any creature. If we threw out everything that wasn't perfect, we would have nothing. But the MitD has to be something, not nothing.

I'm not looking for a flawless, perfect fit. You are rejecting my premise on that basis, but it is not a condition I ever imposed. My original post in this thread was, "These are reasons I do not think Protean fits, even though Protean may be a better fit than anything else so far." How that gets to 'perect fit' is a leap or two beyond anything I stated or implied.

[InvisibleBison]

What examples do we have in comic of creatures whose characters and personalities deviate from their species norm?

Belkar, Sunny, the Oracle, Therkla, Hilgya, Leeky Windstaff, Kilkil, the IFCC Directors, arguably Tsukiko...

[Peelee]

Belkar, Sunny, the Oracle, Therkla, Hilgya, Leeky Windstaff, Kilkil, the IFCC Directors, arguably Tsukiko...

The Empress of Blood, Right-Eye, Oona, Hank, Bozzok, Veldrina, the hobgoblin cleric advisor in HtPGhS....

[Keltest]

The Empress of Blood, Right-Eye, Oona, Hank, Bozzok, Veldrina, the hobgoblin cleric advisor in HtPGhS....

Vaarsuvius, the commander of the elven strikeforce, Sabine, Goblin Dan, Pompey, Whichever Kobold it was that was Inigo Montoya...

[Peelee]

Spoiler

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[brian 333]

Spoiler

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Actually, none of those listed characters deviate from species norms. The kobolds are more intelligent in OotSverse than in Faerun, but that's across the board, in the same way all goblins in OotSverse are Medium sized. All the rest listed? No deviation, other than Alignment, which is never absolute in any edition.

[Keltest]

Actually, none of those listed characters deviate from species norms. The kobolds are more intelligent in OotSverse than in Faerun, but that's across the board, in the same way all goblins in OotSverse are Medium sized. All the rest listed? No deviation, other than Alignment, which is never absolute in any edition.

Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive. If they differ in alignment, it's because they differ significantly in behavior.

[Tubercular Ox]

See, I don't get agitation from that answer at all, or even "saying no four times" like you're saying. I see someone answering "no" then giving a detailed explanation as to why the answer is "no."

And I see an agitated man. What do we do from here? Just keep asserting it to each other?

[InvisibleBison]

Actually, none of those listed characters deviate from species norms. The kobolds are more intelligent in OotSverse than in Faerun, but that's across the board, in the same way all goblins in OotSverse are Medium sized. All the rest listed? No deviation, other than Alignment, which is never absolute in any edition.

By what standard does MitD deviate from the species norms of a protean, but Belkar not deviate from the species norms of a halfling?

[Kish]

I ask you who are the most fervent supporters of the protean to look at it from the other side: try to prove it is not. You may find it easier than you expect.

With or without referencing Pathfinder and frantically handwaving away the differences between that and D&D?

And I see an agitated man. What do we do from here? Just keep asserting it to each other?

The available evidence suggests that yes, you will go on making unsupported assertions and building towers of rhetoric on them.

But, if you were to want to actually convince someone, my advice would be to start with a shared premise--if any exists--and try to build on that. Basic logic indicates you cannot convince anyone of anything with premises they do not agree with. "Roy is a human fighter, therefore..." is the beginning of a chain that could work for most people on this forum; "here Rich is showing an emotion you do not agree he is, and so his words can be paraphrased in a way that you believe drops almost the entirety of what he is saying, and therefore the creature in the darkness is clearly not a protean" dives straight off the dock with the first word and does nothing but swim further out to sea with every subsequent word.

[Tubercular Ox]

and so his words can be paraphrased in a way that you believe drops almost the entirety of what he is saying, and therefore the creature in the darkness is clearly not a protean"

That's not where I was going with this. I like your advice, we should look for common ground, but I'm here. Rich sounds agitated in that quote. That is my true and heartfelt belief. It is a feeling I get, not a conclusion I drew by counting how many times he said no. I counted out how many times he said no because that is my naive attempt to express what I believe in my heart to be true.

If I were selling Rich something, that answer would make me apologize and move on. If I were asking Rich out, that answer would break my heart.

It's not just this quote, but if I bring more quotes into it I'm building a tower of rhetoric again.

So what do we do? Where is common ground? What should I back up to talking about?

[Kish]

So what do we do? Where is common ground? What should I back up to talking about?

Something that we agree on.

Like, my immediate reaction to "if I bring in more quotes" is--would these be quotes that we agree with you about the significance of? No? Then that wouldn't bring us any closer to common ground, would it?

As far as I can tell looking back at your case for the Hunting Horror, the critical disagreement point is:

The creature in the darkness, which has been permanently shrouded in the darkness so far, makes sense as a creature that actively needs to avoid the light.

vs.

The creature in the darkness, which made no efforts to avoid the light when in his original forest and has consistently objected to being forcibly kept away from it by Xykon and Redcloak, makes NO sense as a creature that actively needs to avoid the light.

(Ruck, Grey Wolf, or others may also be thinking in terms of the creature's lack of physical defenses sufficient to explain why Miko, Haley, and Belkar were completely unable to make it feel even a tiny bit of pain with their weapons. That's a point that matters to me as well, but much less than the "actively wants light" thing. As I said many iterations of this thread ago when someone proposed a grue: The theory that he's a grue is comparable to using a creature's constant longing for garlic as evidence that he's a vampire.) I also do not think Rich respects "listed monster alignment" enough for "he has no actual listed alignment so he's flexible in a way a protean would not be" to hold up.

[brian 333]

With or without referencing Pathfinder and frantically handwaving away the differences between that and D&D?

Either way. As I said before, the Pathfinder version is actually a better fit because it has a natural form to return to, while the D&D version does not. Otherwise, both are in constant flux and doing crazy things like growing extra eyes, (MitD always has two,) or changing size from Diminutive to Gargantuan.(MitD always fits under the umbrella, and it never falls to the ground while MitD is being a flea.)

And I have not handwaved away any differences. There just aren't that many. Both are beings tainted by Chaos which view non-shapeshifters with contempt. What major difference disqualifies the PF version of Protean, but not the D&D version?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't know that the box was more flimsey than the wall of that fort, but that was not my point. My point was, why would any protean choose to remain on the same plane as the monster hunters who captured it, or Xykon who treats it like a tool?

Again: why is this particular point directed at the protean? It applies equally to every suggestion that can pass the tower, and to every suggestion that can pass the Escape, and yet you chose to single out the protean. It makes you sound like you have an ax to grind.

And that's really just one piece among several that doesn't fit, as I have said.

If you, (generic you, not GW specifically,) are convinced protean is the best guess, (and I confess there are not many better choices with all of the abilities MitD has,) then that's your choice. I flipped the template:

This thread, for over 17 iterations now, has run on identifying the flaws of every creature above their pros. A brief look at section 3e will reveal that. So I do wonder why you call what you are doing "flipping the script" when it is in fact the MO of the thread.

instead of looking at powers and characteristics that fit, I tried to see if there were ones which did not. I conclude that for MitD to be a protean, too many traits would have to be houseruled or characterized away.

And yet you have done none of that. Instead, you looked at a different creature with the same name and have spent multiple post trying to declare them identical when they are obviously not.

The Author said MitD is not a homebrew, that we would recognize it once revealed, and that it could be guessed by the information presented in comic. Altering a creature a little, say with an age or alignment change, is one thing. When entire powers and characterization blocks are altered, it's too much. It is no longer recognizable as the original.

For example, would this "change entire powers" be something like use the powers from a completely different edition of the game, as you have done? Instead of actually look at the actual creature being suggested?

As far as I have seen, in fact, you have brought nothing to the table that has not already been addressed in Ruck's essay.

Has Dao been excluded?

No creature is ever "excluded". As I have explained repeatedly. So I suggest you spend some time perusing section 3, particularly but not exclusively 3e, to understand how this thread works.

I'm trying to explain why a popular choice for MitD's species does not resonate for me.

Why? If it doesn't, it doesn't. This thread does not exist to convince you of anything. That's literally the reason why I don't like the FBS from dropping under 6 entries. Now, I'd suggest you read on the actual creature being suggested rather than substituting for a different one and pretending they are the same, but if at the end of the day you like another one better, tell Crusher about it. And if you don't like any, tell Crusher that. But this thread doesn't exist to change anyone's mind, but to accumulate information. And so far, all I've gotten from you is "the PF version of the protean is not a good fit".

---

ETA:

Ruck, Grey Wolf, or others may also be thinking in terms of the creature's lack of physical defenses

No, I'm with you there. And if may be presumptive, I think Ruck might be too. While it is a lot more quantifiable to talk about quality of defences and whatnot, I'd say that the HH's issue with darkness is rather more central to my feeling of mismatch than anything else, at least as presented here. I don't recall if that was mentioned or not when first proposed, though.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Isn't there an entire post included as part of the base thread dedicated specifically to extolling the virtues of the protean as a candidate? Something no other candidate has? In light of that, objecting that the thread focuses mostly on the cons seem kind of hollow.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Isn't there an entire post included as part of the base thread dedicated specifically to extolling the virtues of the protean as a candidate? Something no other candidate has? In light of that, objecting that the thread focuses mostly on the cons seem kind of hollow.

No, there isn't.

GW

[Keltest]

As requested, the Protean argument will be posted at the top of the thread.

The original essay is posted here. With some minor revisions:

Spoiler: Why MITD is a Protean

Show

First, the background to my process:

Preamble

I’m not a D&D player, a couple of the computer game adaptations aside. I don’t know the game like other people do. Now on the one hand, I think that means I come in without any particular attachment to a creature, so perhaps my case is more “objective” than those of people who have a favorite D&D monster and want it to be the MITD.

It also means I’m working only from the list of already-proposed FBS characters. Given my lack of experience with D&D and the amount of research already done here by people looking through various sourcebooks to find suitable monsters, I don’t think I can add value with any further research. Thus, I have focused my efforts on examining the evidence available vs. the already-existing FBS list and trying to deduce an accurate conclusion. (As this implies, I also believe that “it is possible to guess” means MITD is a D&D monster which is capable of the things we have seen in comic by the rules of D&D 3.5.)

I also recognize that none of the creatures are perfect fits; if they were, this thread likely would have reached a consensus already. But being as I don’t believe I will find a better creature out there, I am going to try to determine the best fit from the FBS creatures based on the evidence at hand.

I’m laying out my case in three parts. The first part I call the “Negative Case”-- why the Protean has the fewest flaws in its case of any creature on the FBS list. The second part I call the “Positive Case”-- why I think the Protean is the best fit for more scenes we’ve seen than any other FBS creature. The third part is the “Thematic Case”-- while the MITD’s species is “possible to guess” from the clues we’ve been given, I’m also keeping in mind that this is a story and not a game of D&D, and I think the Protean is also the best fit for the MITD’s role in the story and story arc.

Without further ado:

Part 1: The Negative Case

As you can see from the list of FBS monsters, every monster in the list has some marks against its case (under “Cons” for each). Two things I want to highlight here are:

1a. Fewest cons

Most of the other FBS-list monsters have significantly longer lists of cons than the Protean's two. The longer the list of cons, the worse fit a creature is, as more conflicts need to be explained.

The only monsters with comparably short lists of cons are the Athasian Nightmare Beast, the Carbosilicate Amorph, and the Uvuudaum. I’ll get to the Uvuudaum more in the next section, but I believe the first two, while they really only have one significant con, have disqualifying cons:

The Carbosilicate Amorph would have been imported entirely from another webcomic, a sci-fi story at that. It’s not a D&D monster, and that makes the sort of deduction through D&D stats and powers we’re looking for here nigh impossible. I do not think Rich used a monster outside of D&D; while it is certainly possible he might, I would wager that the complications involved there violate the implicit agreement of the “it is possible to guess” statement. (To say nothing of any complications that might arise from using someone else’s intellectual property-- because I’m pretty sure we’re not allowed to discuss that topic.) In any case, that’s a deal-breaker for me.

The Athasian Nightmare Beast was published after Rich, by his own words, decided on what MITD’s species was. The explanation here is that “the designer could have sent an advance copy to other designers, such as Rich,” but again, I interpret Rich’s “possible to guess” statement to mean it would have been possible to publicly find the information on MITD when he decided on the species. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe he would have picked a creature yet to be published. (And that’s before we get into things like the ANB being described as having “crimson eyes” when the MITD’s are yellow, but I’ll get to artwork in a minute.)

Every creature besides those three has a longer con list than the Protean. I believe two of those creatures will not be the MITD because of how they seem to violate the nature of the “guessing game” of MITD’s species. But let’s get to what may be the more important part of this argument: The nature of those cons.

1b. Mechanical Explanations

The Protean’s cons can be explained without changing the D&D mechanics of how the species works.

Not only is the Protean's cons list shorter than the rest, the other species' cons all require substantial bending of the 3.5 rules to dismiss, or aren't really dismissable at all except by saying "This one just doesn't apply." (Or in the case of ANB and CA, bending space/time and genre in a way that I think violates the guessing game.) The Protean's is the only one whose Cons can be explained with established mechanics. (While Rich has said he only uses the mechanics as a framework for the story and isn’t totally faithful to them, the assumption of this thread has been that his statement that “it is possible to guess” means he is faithful to 3.5 when showing the MITD’s powers, and I too use that assumption here.)

Let’s pick up the Uvuudaum again. One of the Uvuudaum’s cons is “His confusion aura should give everyone missing saves around him swirly eyes, but no such thing is visible in the circus scene.” I believe this is significant because it’s a mechanic that should work in OOTS-verse for an MITD scene but would simply have to not work as described in order for the Uvuudaum to fit. Many of the creatures in the FBS list have even more cons of this nature where the mechanics don’t fit the creature in question. (The Glabrezu, for example, is too low CR, would not draw a reaction of surprise upon speaking, and is an embodiment of Chaotic Evil, which doesn’t fit what we’ve seen with MITD. The Hunting Horror is too weak and is also damaged by light, which would be a problem considering how often MITD asks for light to be shone on him. Slaads can talk in common and also have already been depicted in the comic.)

The other con on the Uvuudaum’s list is art-based. The Uvuudaum, ANB, and Protean all have art-based cons, but I am willing to consider these as weaker cons than mechanical deficiencies. My main reasons for this are due to the limitations of the stick-figure art system and how to best express MITD’s reactions, and due to Rich not wanting to change how MITD is depicted in strip and thus give away a reveal he’s been planning for what might well be 20 years by the time it happens.

That said, I also believe the Protean’s art-based con is the weakest of the three:

• The Uvuudaum’s is “Might not have eyes or mouth (unmentioned in description, not present in pictures).” While I can let the eyes go given that MITD is shrouded in darkness and eyes are the best way to represent his facial expressions, not having a mouth seems like a serious impediment toward eating and speaking, two things the MITD definitely does.
• The ANB’s regards the eye color; again, I think it would have been a huge clue to change eye colors on the character as soon as its species was decided, so I’m willing to overlook it (because I think the ANB is disqualified for the reasons I state above anyway).
• The Protean’s is “Its constant shapeshifting has not been reflected in a change of MitD (mouth and eyes stay roughly the same).” If you buy the above art explanations, then they will suffice as well for the Protean. If you don’t, however, the Protean has a mechanical explanation that would suffice, in its description in the SRD:

Given how little movement we see the MITD make, it’s certainly possible that MITD is constantly using a move action to hold a form with two eyes (and probably a mouth in case someone brings stew). Indeed, given that a move action can be used in place of a standard action, even when we see MITD moving, it’s possible he’s using his standard action to hold form.

I think there are good explanations why MITD might do this (I’ll cover them in “Thematic Relevance”), but for now, what’s important is that a Protean can do this. It doesn’t need to be especially likely or common for a Protean to act this way to fit MITD; it only needs to be that a Protean is capable of doing so. (In addition, taking the effort to hold a more-or-less constant form may be why MITD is always so tired.)

It is also possible that MITD is not doing this, but any extra eyes he manifests continue to remain hidden in the darkness. Or that we don't actually see the same two eyes, it just so happens that every time we look at the monster, he happens to have two eyes that appear in the same place from our perspective.

Peelee has a theory that in a world that runs on the rules of storytelling, the camera placement and our view of MitD's eyes will always be set up so as not so spoil the surprise:



In any case, there are multiple plausible explanations here for why we might not see MITD appear as we “expect” a Protean to appear. Rich's exact words on the subject are "Nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what [MITD] is," and appearing with two eyes, while unusual, does not contradict the truth of what a Protean is or can be.

(NobleCuriosity has a good post further elaborating on artistic reasons why Rich might depict a Protean MITD as having two consistent eyes-- specifically, the artistic convention of keeping one feature of a shapeshifter consistent so the audience knows which character it is-- as well as other points that supplement the case made in this post.)

The other con for the Protean is:


While “timely shapeshift into the exact appropriate creature” might require rolling a natural 20 in a real game of D&D, OOTS is a story. In this story, the unlikely result will happen if it proves best for the story (and I don’t just mean in the sense that Elan believes “a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing,” but also in what Rich has said himself about writing the story). It may be unlikely, but it is possible without changing the rules of how a Protean works in 3.5.

It is also entirely possible that such a shapeshift does not require a lucky roll, given a Protean's intelligence, wisdom, and knowledge of other creatures. It may not be knowledge MitD consciously realized he had, but by willing himself to save O-Chul, he manifested exactly what he needed to manifest.

In fact, that timely shapeshift explains why MITD doesn’t teleport the hobgoblin in #699: As the hobgoblin says, MITD is “just shouting synonyms at me,” while MITD would have to shapeshift to actually teleport the hobgoblin (and probably still doesn’t realize that’s what he did or how his power works; see “I didn’t do it! And if I did do it, I didn’t know I could do it until I did it!”).

My point is, the Protean is capable of explaining the Escape scene without adding any new information, qualification, or template, or without bending, fudging, or discarding the mechanical rules of the species. It may be unlikely that your typical Protean would do so, but “unlikely under the rules” is not the same as “impossible under the rules.” Unlike the Uvuudaum’s mechanical con (or the other creatures with even more cons), the rules of a Protean’s mechanics do not have to change to explain anything about MITD.

Thus, both of the potential "cons" of the Protean as a fit do have a possible mechanical explanation without altering any of the rules of 3.5 or how the creature works. I don’t think you can say that about any of the other proposed creatures. Those explanations may be the product of unlikely behavior for a Protean, but stories like this are generally about unlikely people. (It's pretty unlikely that a wildly dysfunctional, somewhat hastily assembled party of mid-level characters would grow into the team that saves the world, but, here we are.)
.
So I believe the drawbacks against the Protean have been addressed above. In this section, I’ll talk about the Protean as actively the best fit for the big scenes.

Part 2: The Positive Case

I believe that not only does the Protean fit all the big scenes, but it generally goes beyond meeting what the agreed minimum requirements to fit them are, and in fact is often the best fit for them of all the creatures on the FBS. I’ll give some examples.

2a. The Tower Scene

Now, 3Power actually gave me an idea with this one a while back (I think in thread XII), although perhaps not the idea he expected. In his case for a creature (the Ha-Naga, IIRC), he suggested that the Tower scene is a joke that can be handwaved away, a bit of Looney Tunes cartoon physics. Well, I agree with the Looney Tunes part, but come to a different conclusion. The physics of the scene are so ridiculous-- MITD tries to hit Miko as softly as possible and knocks her and her horse through the wall and some substantial distance away-- that it's far more likely that MITD has preposterously high strength than that he barely meets the threshold we've established. Thus, the higher the strength, the better fit the creature. Every candidate listed in the FBS list with D&D stats has a strength in the 30s (except the Black Slaad which is listed as 42). The Protean has STR 53. It is significantly higher strength than any of the other FBS creatures. It is thus by far the most likely species on the list that a creature of such could attempt to hit someone as weakly as possible and still send them cartoonishly flying through a solid wall and hundreds of feet away.

2b. The Circus Scene

I think the sheer variety of reactions in the Circus Scene make far more sense for a Protean than anything else on the FBS list. Most of the other creatures on the FBS list should be terrifying, sure, but we see everything from horror to nausea to fascination (both with it being "beautiful" and "never seen anything like it") to the goblin kids cheering him on. The Protean's constantly shifting form is the best fit to cause all of those reactions (including its 34 CHA qualifying it as "beautiful" in someone's eyes); anything that keeps a consistent form is more likely to evoke similar reactions from each audience member, rather than such a wide variety of reactions. Individual reactions from the crowd can be explained by other creatures' traits (Hunting Horror's stench of Nausea, Uvuudaum's confusion aura if you really fudge it, they could all be described as "horrible"), but only the Protean has the traits necessary to cover such a gamut of reactions.

In addition, I also believe that a Protean best explains why the goblin children are always excited to go back to the circus-- they get a new experience every time.

This doesn’t conflict with my art explanation for MITD’s eyes; MITD is told by his circus handler that what he does every show is “stand on the stage and get gawked at.” If those are his instructions, then he is probably not using a move action to hold a form when he’s on stage, merely standing still. (We don’t see his eyes when he’s on stage, after all-- we see that entire scene from his perspective until he goes back into the darkness.)

While the Escape scene is not one where the Protean’s ability to perform it stands out compared to other species, it does have the capacity to do so (as I explained in part 1), and it’s really a binary yes/no question as to whether a species can. The Protean can.

Items 4-7 in the list of characteristics necessary to be on the FBS list aren’t scenes, they are traits, and the Protean does possess them all.

For the record, it’s not in the Big Scenes list, but the Stomp scene would also fit a Protean, given that a Protean can manifest a limb to stomp with, that MITD is later shown in the Escape scene to be capable of great powers when it focuses intently, and that the Protean has a ridiculously high strength, the highest on the FBS list. (Note that MITD’s reaction to his stomp is, similar to his defense of the Escape scene, that he didn’t know he could do that; this also fits for a Protean that’s just discovering it can shapeshift into certain creatures to do specific things.)

So, the Protean isn’t lacking in any of the characteristics necessary for the FBS list, and in two of the three big scenes is the best fit for the scene of any creature proposed.

I believe that covers the case for why the Protean is the best fit for the MITD mechanically. Now, since OOTS is a story, I want to touch on the storytelling aspect of MITD’s species.

Part 3: The Thematic Case

While the species of the MITD is a guessing game that can be deduced by clues, I also believe that, first and foremost, Burlew is telling a story with The Order of the Stick, and that his criteria for choosing MITD’s species in the first place would involve that species being thematically relevant to the story.

Of course, it helps if we agree on what that story is. From my perspective, there are two key elements here:

3a. MITD’s relationship with Xykon and Redcloak

MITD, for the first six hundred-odd strips or so, seems to believe Xykon and Redcloak are his friends (despite the evidence to the contrary). Given MITD’s love of social gatherings like tea parties, and the stress he feels from performing in the circus (let alone how people who’ve seen him openly call him ugly, horrifying, etc.), he’s probably someone who wants to be liked, likes to have friends, struggles to fit in, and is insecure enough that he thinks anyone who will accept him is his friend. Darth Paul has a good post on this topic, to which I'll add that he didn't leave the circus because he didn't "[want] to be rude about it." MITD is a people-pleaser.

This is my explanation for why he constantly holds his form to have two eyes: His two best friends have two eyes each (or, you know, did) and he wants to fit in. Grey Wolf had an excellent post in the previous thread detailing this idea further, and expanding another thematic point in favor of the Protean: Part of MITD’s struggle has been, as an ever-changing creature, to resist change in order to fit in and find friendship. It would also explain why MITD is perceived as being so lazy; if he's always using a move action to hold a form, it takes him twice as long to do things as other people. (Of course, if you accept one of the other explanations for his depiction, he doesn’t even have to be holding a form.)

3b. MITD’s relationship with O-Chul

I think the interactions between MITD and O-Chul are the most revealing parts for the theme of MITD’s story. Given those interactions and how MITD has changed since then, here’s what I think: The story of the MITD is that of a juvenile growing up, someone who is content to be led around by other people and have them think for him and give him orders as long as he thinks they’re his friends. O-Chul begins to prod him into challenging those ideas, not only the idea that Xykon and Redcloak are his friends but also the idea that he should just do what other people say and not think for himself.

O-Chul’s prodding and friendship leads the MITD to save him in the Escape Scene, and from then on MITD has been following his own agenda independent of Xykon and Redcloak (and apparently without their awareness). The MITD’s journey is one of realizing the things O-Chul has taught him, realizing the immense things he is capable of when he tries, focuses, and follows his own conscience rather than the orders of others.

(The Protean’s high stat block also explains why he is able to learn and change so quickly; we’ve seen signs of his intelligence in the comic, he’s just never really applied himself before #661. Intelligence and wisdom are the lowest of the Protean’s stats, but they’re still 20 and 21, respectively, which is still remarkably high when compared to typical creature stats, aside from adventuring wizards and clerics. Plus, the Protean has Detect Thoughts at will, which would work to explain how MITD has acquired some of his knowledge.)

The reason I think the Protean is the most relevant is because it is the one suggestion for the FBS that has the power to will itself to change its physical form, not merely its inner character. In fact, from what I can tell, the Protean can consciously choose creatures to shapeshift or partially shapeshift into. (This explains how a Protean MITD achieves the Escape Scene, the first step in his self-actualization.)

Thus, I believe that the MITD's journey is, quite literally, toward the lesson of “You can be whatever you want if you put your mind to it,” and that the Protean is the creature that fits this theme. (Other people have expressed this idea in other posts better than I am here, but searching in threads seems to be somewhat broken right now on the forums, so I couldn’t find those posts.) This also explains why O-Chul doesn’t think the MITD would believe his theory on what he is (if he is correct); for someone who has been as passive as MITD has his whole life, learning he is not just capable of setting his own course, but in fact a creature of great and immense power, capable of virtually anything, would indeed come as a shock.

Even if you don’t find this particularly convincing, I can’t think of any thematic relevance to the story that any of the other FBS creatures hold. There’s always the more general “Even pure Evil can be changed by a resolute Goodness,” but that doesn’t particularly apply for any creature more than the others (or not enough to outweigh their cons), plus that theme makes MITD’s story more about O-Chul than himself. Based on some of Rich’s comments about character choices, I believe MITD’s story is about his decisions, not simply as a foil to show O-Chul’s Goodness (which we’ve seen many times over anyway).

The MITD’s story is about finding the willpower to follow your own heart and mind and change who you are. What better represents the ability to make that change than a Protean, a creature that can literally physically change what it is?

Thus, in addition to the Protean having the strongest D&D 3.5 mechanical argument for species fit, I believe it also has the most thematic relevance to MITD’s story.

Conclusion

In conclusion: After reviewing all the available evidence, I believe the MITD is a Protean. I believe Protean is the species that is both the best positive fit and least negative fit for all of MITD’s scenes: That is to say, its combination of powers best explain MITD's displayed behavior, and it is also the species that least requires any fudging or bending of the D&D 3.5 rules to work (or the rules of space and time). I also believe, perhaps more importantly, that Protean makes the most sense for MITD’s character journey and growing awareness of his own capabilities. I’ve reviewed the decade-plus of research and argumentation that has gone into compiling this thread, and I believe this is where the evidence points, substantially and better to the Protean than any other creature proposed.

And this is what then?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And this is what then?

Not what you described.

GW

[Keltest]

Not what you described.

GW

You think a post subtitled as "why the mitd is a protean" included as part of the thread creation process is not an explicit endorsement of the protean based on its merits?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You think a post subtitled as "why the mitd is a protean" included as part of the thread creation process is not an explicit endorsement of the protean based on its merits?

Weird goal post moving there

GW

[Kish]

I am sure if I wanted to write a Why the MitD is a White Slaad post, it would also be permitted.

[Keltest]

I am sure if I wanted to write a Why the MitD is a White Slaad post, it would also be permitted.

And if there's a formal "heres the format for having an opinion piece included in the opening posts" instruction somewhere that I missed,, I'll retract my complaint. Absent that, the thread's claims to neutrality seem pretty false to me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And if there's a formal "heres the format for having an opinion piece included in the opening posts" instruction somewhere that I missed,, I'll retract my complaint. Absent that, the thread's claims to neutrality seem pretty false to me.

How many people have you known to come into this thread to attack White Slaad as a suggestion over the last 17 threads, Keltest? Therefore, how much need is there of an essay going through the pros and cons of the white slaad as a suggestion with a fine toothed comb?

I've literally written that essay twice, for what is worth, once in jest and once in earnest. It passed unremarked and I accept it is unremarkable, and therefore I need not drag it along to every new thread. But to this day there is not a single thread in which someone - including yourself in more than one occasion - hasn't come to this thread with the exclusive intention of "defeating" the protean and repeating tired old arguments that have long been known to be inaccurate. Therefore, I find it very useful to have a post relating to the protean but not one to the white slaad copied over. Should you and the other usual suspects suddenly get into your head that the slaad is the preeminent Chosen One and start banging on about how it cannot possibly be, possibly involving literal misreadings of the slaad's capabilities, maybe it'll be useful too to have one for them too.

Or heck, if one is written that is so detailed and thoughtful I want to keep it around to be able to reference myself even in absence of interest on the topic. That'd work too.

So yeah, the difference is that all you people who are incapable of letting rest the fact that other people think the protean fits nicely are constantly making me need Ruck's essay, and I'd rather not go hunting for it or writing my own version every ten or so pages. If and when that happens to any other suggestion, if someone comes along and writes one worth keeping, I'll happily add that one too. But I see no need to either write any other nor request one to be written.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

How many people have you known to come into this thread to attack White Slaad as a suggestion over the last 17 threads, Keltest? Therefore, how much need is there of an essay going through the pros and cons of the white slaad as a suggestion with a fine toothed comb?

I've literally written that essay twice, for what is worth, once in jest and once in earnest. It passed unremarked and I accept it is unremarkable, and therefore I need not drag it along to every new thread. But to this day there is not a single thread in which someone - including yourself in more than one occasion - hasn't come to this thread with the exclusive intention of "defeating" the protean and repeating tired old arguments that have long been known to be inaccurate. Therefore, I find it very useful to have a post relating to the protean but not one to the white slaad copied over. Should you and the other usual suspects suddenly get into your head that the slaad is the preeminent Chosen One and start banging on about how it cannot possibly be, possibly involving literal misreadings of the slaad's capabilities, maybe it'll be useful too to have one for them too.

Or heck, if one is written that is so detailed and thoughtful I want to keep it around to be able to reference myself even in absence of interest on the topic. That'd work too.

So yeah, the difference is that all you people who are incapable of letting the fact that other people think the protean rest are constantly making me need Ruck's essay, and I'd rather not go hunting for it or writing my own version every ten or so pages. If and when that happens to any other suggestion, if someone comes along and writes one worth keeping, I'll happily add that one too. But I see no need to either write any other nor request one to be written.

Grey Wolf

To be clear, I don't care why its there. The problem is that you are telling people that the thread is "neutral" while simultaneously endorsing a candidate, apparently in the formal stance as thread curator instead of as a poster voicing an opinion.

If there's a formal process for getting am essay posted, I can handle that since I can understand it being the only one somebody has cared enough to write one for. If the thread formally endorses the protean as a candidate, I would strongly disagree but wouldn't protest it since it's not my thread. Neither of those are the case.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The problem is that you are telling people that the thread is "neutral" while simultaneously endorsing a candidate

No I'm not.

And I'm honestly tired of hearing you tell me what I am doing (wrongly), while also simply ignoring what I tell you even when I take the time to spell it out. So good bye, Keltest. I really should know better by now than to try to interact with you in any positive way.

GW

[Peelee]

If there's a formal process for getting an essay posted

Curator guidelines can be found here. Also quoted below (bolding mine):

Certain project threads are curated by member volunteers who take responsibility for maintaining the consensus of conclusions from discussion, often because they have made the opening post in the thread and thus are the only non-moderators that can edit it. These curators bear no special title, and have no official authority; they are not moderators, and cannot ban discussion of issues they consider settled. Their sole responsibility is to maintain lists of information as represents the threads community's conclusions. Specifically, the curator cannot prevent certain topics from being discussed, prevent any given poster from participating, or make any sort of executive decision on what is or is not included in the opening post of a curated topic. Disruptive or chronically off-topic posters can still be reported to the forum moderation as normal, of course.

As this is an open forum, and multiple threads on a single topic (with competing curators and selection processes) are not allowed, choosing and agreeing to thread curators is a somewhat fraught process. We would prefer for there to be universal agreement, or, at least, broad consensus on appropriate curators, and that curators do their duty conscientiously and without bias. If a dispute arises about curation (either who is the curator or how the curator is doing their duty), it should be referred to the Moderators, who will contact the curator and the interested parties. In some cases, curators may, with moderator approval, determine some sort of democratic method for inclusion or exclusion of given material, as long as that method is fair and does not give them any unusual influence over the results.

In all cases, posters and curators must abide by the forum rules. Failure to do so will result in warnings or infractions, as appropriate. Continued dispute on the status of a thread may also result in it being closed for an indefinite period of time.

Grey Wolf is the current curator for the MitD thread. Any posts on the first page containing lists of information (or essays, as the case here) not made by Grey Wolf are thus not representative of the community's conclusions. If you wish to have a formal process for submitting an essay established, it is as follows: put it in a post after the curator is finished making a new thread as you would anything else you would like to say, because it has the same bearing as anything else you'd like to say. For example, if you wish to have it be before Ruck's protean essay or before Crusher's list of guesses, post before Ruck or Crusher do once the curator is finished making the thread.

[Ruck]

The PF source was virtually the same as the D&D source, which is unavailable online and In a book I do not own. Upon reading the D&D source posted in this thread, it turns out the PF protean is actually a better fit for MitD.

They're not "virtually the same," though. They are entirely different, as multiple people have pointed out to you, and half of your argument relies on pretending they are the same.

My apologies. It was not intended as a shot. It is a turn of phrase that was common back in the day which means something like, I agree that we disagree. And have no fear about my feelings being hurt, I don't bring them to the argument.

Apology accepted. While I didn't think you meant anything like that by it, I do have a problem with phrasing like that because it reads to me like my arguments are just being dismissed with "Oh, you're being emotional/irrational."

And yet, in comic, we see exactly that, over and over. Hobgoblins are militant warmongers, elves are freedom fighters, ogres are bloodthirsty bandits, and so on.

See, I don't think that's accurate either:

• Some hobgoblins are militant warmongers; some are not. There's Tingtox and Pangtok from "How the Paladin Got His Scar." There's the old craftsman who makes the fake phylactery. There's Jirix, possibly.
• The elves aren't really freedom fighters. the elven society mostly stays to their own affairs, only interfering in Azure City / Gobbotopia when they think they have some actionable intelligence. And then there's Vaarsuvius, who is an elf and certainly has a more complex personality and character than "freedom fighter," and Inkyrius, who is a baker, not a freedom fighter. And Aarindarius seems to spend most of their time in their tower researching magic, and the Iron Mage show seems to indicate a society of people not defined by "freedom fighters."
• I think we only see one group of ogres in the entire strip, so I wouldn't use them to paint the whole species. Do we know how "bloodthirsty" they are? We only see them after Miko announces the group's intention to attack them.

Which I guess answers this question in part:

What examples do we have in comic of creatures whose characters and personalities deviate from their species norm?

Everyone else has already come up with numerous other examples in answer to this question, so let me follow it up with these questions:

What are halflings like as a species in OOTS? Are they all like Belkar, are they all like Serini, are they all like Hank, or are they all like something else?

What are orcs like in OOTS? Are they all like the island tribe, or are they all like the ones in On the Origin of PCs? Or are they all like something else?

What are dwarves like in OOTS? Are they all like Durkon? Are they all like Sidgi? Are they all like Thirden? Are they all like Hilgya? Are they all like the one who tries to assassinate Roy mistaking him for the King of Nowhere? Or are they all like something else?

What are half-orcs like in OOTS? Are they all like Bozzok, are they all like Therkla, or are they all like Thog? Or are they all like something else?

What are humans like in OOTS? Are they all like Roy, or Elan, or Eugene, or Shojo, or Girard, or Soon, or Haley, or Tarquin, or Julia, or the Cliffport Chief of Police, or Julio, or Laurin, or Miko, or Miron, or Hinjo, or Ian, or O-Chul, or Mia, or Sara, or the Cleric of Loki, or Old Blind Pete, or Crystal, or Lien, or Elan's Mother, or Sangwaan, or Niu, or Thanh, or O-Chul's auntie, or Zhou Bo? Or are they all like something else?

Heck, are all beholders like Sunny? Or are they all like something else?

EDIT: Actually, I wanted to add this and address it:

Actually, none of those listed characters deviate from species norms.

This is such a broad, bold statement and you haven't supported it at all. You're going to have to demonstrate what exactly the "species norms" all characters of a species adhere to are, and how they adhere to it. Remember, your complaint is that the Protean doesn't have the character or personality you'd expect from a Protean, so you're going to need to meet that standard of all characters of a species displaying the same character and personality.

Has Dao been excluded?

I don't know what that is.

I'm not looking for a flawless, perfect fit. You are rejecting my premise on that basis, but it is not a condition I ever imposed. My original post in this thread was, "These are reasons I do not think Protean fits, even though Protean may be a better fit than anything else so far." How that gets to 'perect fit' is a leap or two beyond anything I stated or implied.

All right, well, then, I just have to go back to my original point since we're going in circles: You think the Pathfinder Protean and 3.5 Protean are virtually the same, even though they are not. You think species determines character and personality, even though one of the themes of the comic is that they do not, and there are a number of examples in the comic that they do not. These are the two fundamental flaws in your argument, and you seem to be dismissing all evidence against them. (Indeed, you have, multiple times, insisted the Pathfinder Protean and 3.5 Protean are the same when it has been spelled out in detail for you how they are not.)

I don't really care much about convincing anyone, since ultimately the answer won't be determined by who is convinced. I will, however, point out holes in any argument for/against any creature when I see them, and as I've said and others have explained in detail, your two major premises here are very flawed and not in accord with the evidence in the comic or the evidence in the ruleset. You are certainly welcome to keep working with those two premises, but they are not accurate and will not lead you to an accurate conclusion.

On to other posts...

---

And I see an agitated man. What do we do from here? Just keep asserting it to each other?

I don't know, but I think my interpretation is more solid given that I'm taking the words at face value and not trying to determine an emotional state from them.

And if there's a formal "heres the format for having an opinion piece included in the opening posts" instruction somewhere that I missed,, I'll retract my complaint. Absent that, the thread's claims to neutrality seem pretty false to me.

Well, someone would have to write it first.

As I recall, Grey Wolf asked me to add it to the top of the thread a few threads back, sometime after I'd written it. I don't think that necessarily shows bias on his part, just that no one's written anything like that about any of the other possible candidates. And it's a convenient way to have the entire case for the creature in one place. (And as he just said in this thread, he finds that useful to have.)

[Tzardok]

I don't know what that is.

The only dao that I know of in a D&D context are the genies of Elemental Earth. I don't know wether those are what brian is talking about.

One problem the Pathfinder protean (and the dao) have that the hagunemnon doesn't is that as outsiders they don't need to eat, while the MitD is until the last two books permanently hungry.

[Ruck]

Ruck, Grey Wolf, or others may also be thinking in terms of the creature's lack of physical defenses sufficient to explain why Miko, Haley, and Belkar were completely unable to make it feel even a tiny bit of pain with their weapons.

Forgot to get to this one. I had to look up in my own essay what I said:

The Hunting Horror is too weak and is also damaged by light, which would be a problem considering how often MITD asks for light to be shone on him.

Reading your post, though, I was reminded of how much the MitD enjoys the sunshine in the deep rainforest (and certainly doesn't act like he suffers any ill effect from it), which is pretty strong evidence he is not damaged by light.